Progressive policies save lives

98cwitr · Oct 16, 2020

ArmenianJohn said:
I'll deal with the content of your mental/verbal gymnastics later, but where has someone been arrested for not wearing a mask? You have yet to provide evidence of that at all.

Post #52

ArmenianJohn · Oct 16, 2020

98cwitr said:
Post #52

What you posted in post 52 are two links to stories about people who were not arrested for not wearing masks. You have yet to back up your assertion that people are being arrested for not wearing masks.

rambot · Oct 16, 2020

98cwitr said:
Comparing seat belt law and mask law is a false equivalence fallacy. While on the surface, and generally speaking, we think they're similar because the intent is to protect life, but seat belts must meet certain standards and safety regulations, cloth masks are not. Seat belts are designed to protect the wearer, cloth masks are not. Seat belts have very few documented side effects, masks do. I can go on and on.

For sure. I mean, it's not factual so yes, you CAN go on and on:
1) Masks ARE designed to "meet certain standards and safety regulations. Not sure why you think they aren't. Perhaps you are only referring to cloth masks?
2)Cloth masks ARE designed to protect the wearer. They are just not as GOOD as a seatbelt. That doesn't mean they aren't designed for that purpose.

Here, I will give you some ammo: Jacobson v. Massachusetts. During a time of early progressive American leanings, SCOTUS ruled that Massachusetts could force a fine if Jacobson didn't get the vaccine. That fine was $5 (in 1905).

Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia

Progressive policies become very tyrannical very quickly. We don't need them in America or frankly anywhere in the world. This ideology needs to be squashed, badly.

Click to expand...

"very tyrannical"? "very quickly"? Funny. I've seen a TONNE of progressive policies that have done neither.

Here's the question that hasn't really sufficiently address (in my humble opinion).

Why is wearing a mask "progressive"? Initially, I started the thread with the assumption that it was. Not because I think it's progressive (in my mind, it's just medical advice; NOT progressive at all).
Why do YOU think it's a progressive policy?

Or is the "progressive policy" the mask mandate? Also, if the mortality rate were higher, is there a benchmark where you think it would be PRUDENT to mandate masks? Say....like 30%? If Ebola got a stranglehold in, say Biloxi Missouri would you think the local government would be within their rights to enact some more "progressive" policies?

rambot · Oct 16, 2020

98cwitr said:
Post #52

One was arrested for parole violations. You got "distracted" by a headline.

Skewpoint · Oct 16, 2020

rambot said:
One was arrested for parole violations. You got "distracted" by a headline.

Trumpers and reading have a....tenuous relationship at best.

rambot · Oct 16, 2020

Skewpoint said:
Trumpers and reading have a....tenuous relationship at best.

Well they're GREAT at headlines. That has been made really evident over the last 3 or 4 years. But sometimes they certainly take a wide berth (or just avoid?) the content of articles.

ArmenianJohn · Oct 16, 2020

rambot said:
One was arrested for parole violations. You got "distracted" by a headline.

The teen in the first story was arrested for probation violation. The three in the second story were arrested for refusing to show ID and suspicion of resisting or obstructing an officer. It says they were not wearing face masks or complying with social distancing but that they were arrested for the other things I mentioned.
"Those who received citations on Wednesday were not wearing face masks or complying with social distance protocols, the Moscow-Pullman Daily News reported. Citing comments from Moscow Police Chief James Fry, the newspaper's report said Rench was arrested for allegedly declining to identify himself to officers at the event. Police did not formally charge him with refusing to provide identification. The other two people taken into custody were reportedly arrested for suspicion of resisting or obstructing an officer."

Also interesting that the argument given in favor of seat belts as opposed to masks was that seat belt fines were "cheaper". So then it's a money issue? Isn't tyranny still tyranny at any price?

Ah, the ever-shifting goalposts of the conservative viewpoint (along with the ever-inaccurate "proof" news articles)...

chad kincham · Oct 16, 2020

ArmenianJohn said:
The highest death rates are in NY and NJ because these states are the main global gateway into the US from the rest of the world. People don't fly from overseas into red states - there's nothing there for them.

NY and NJ were hit the hardest early on because Trump had withheld information about COVID. NY and NJ are also home to the most densely populated areas of the nation which contriubted to spread earlier on. NY and NJ had to do everything themselves, going by the science and data and even coming up with their own science and data because the Federal government did nothing to guide the nation. NY and NJ actually guided the rest of the nation; some blue states followed that guidance and things got better, the red states ignored that guidance and they are doing much, much worse now.

It's like anything else in this nation - the blue states lead and give while the red states follow and take, take, take. The blue states produce in abundance and the red states take and take and take whatever they can get their hands on which they are unable or unwilling to produce.

Now we see it with COVID - the blue states got hit the hardest and straightened things out within 2 to 3 months while the red states were not hit with anything for a couple months and then ignored all the lessons that the blue states had to learn the hard way so now those red states are going down the toilet.

As always, blue states produce progress and the red states regress and drag everything back down.

NY and NJ were hit the hardest early on because Trump had withheld information about COVID. NY and NJ are also home to the most densely populated areas of the nation which contriubted to spread earlier on. NY and NJ had to do everything themselves, going by the science and data and even coming up with their own science and data because the Federal government did nothing to guide the nation. NY and NJ actually guided the rest of the nation; some blue states followed that guidance and things got better, the red states ignored that guidance and they are doing much, much worse now.

It's like anything else in this nation - the blue states lead and give while the red states follow and take, take, take. The blue states produce in abundance and the red states take and take and take whatever they can get their hands on which they are unable or unwilling to produce.

Now we see it with COVID - the blue states got hit the hardest and straightened things out within 2 to 3 months while the red states were not hit with anything for a couple months and then ignored all the lessons that the blue states had to learn the hard way so now those red states are going down the toilet.

As always, blue states produce progress and the red states regress and drag everything back down.[/QUOTE]

Your reply is a bogus narrative, from start to finish.

No one takes from the blue states, though you could claim that the mass exodus of people from high taxes in blue states, to be the taking of those people by the red states.

What do blue states give that red states take?

Blue states are notoriously inefficient and incompetent, and are always begging for federal money.

And claiming Trump withheld information from blue states is ludicrous. Every single day he held a news conference where Drs. Fauci, Brix, and the surgeon general spoke and gave the latest updates and recommendations.

And if he had withheld information, red states would be in the dark equally with blue states.

You can’t spin it.

The virus spread so fast because, per the NY Times, as late as March 5, Cuomo and DeBlasiio told New Yorkers via the media, to continue living their lives normally, while calling Trumps shutdown of flights from China an overreaction and bigoted.

NY Times article:

A 39-year-old woman took Flight 701 from Doha, Qatar, to John F. Kennedy International Airport in late February, the final leg of her trip home to New York City from Iran.

A week later, on March 1, she tested positive for the coronavirus, the first confirmed case in New York City of an outbreak that had already devastated China and parts of Europe.

The next day, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, appearing with Mayor Bill de Blasio at a news conference, promised that health investigators would track down every person on the woman’s flight. But no one did.

A day later, a lawyer from New Rochelle, a New York City suburb, tested positive for the virus — an alarming sign because he had not traveled to any affected country, suggesting community spread was already taking place.

Although city investigators had traced the lawyer’s whereabouts and connections to the most crowded corridors of Manhattan, the state’s efforts focused on the suburb, not the city, and Mr. de Blasio urged the public not to worry. “We’ll tell you the second we think you should change your behavior,” the mayor said on March 5.

For many days after the first positive test, as the coronavirus silently spread throughout the New York region, Mr. Cuomo, Mr. de Blasio and their top aides projected an unswerving confidence that the outbreak would be readily contained.

There would be cases, they repeatedly said, but New York’s hospitals were some of the best in the world. Plans were in place. Responseshad been rehearsed during “tabletop” exercises. After all, the city had been here before — Ebola, Zika, the H1N1 virus, etc,

Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”

But now, New York City and the surrounding suburbs have become the epicenter of the pandemic in the United States, with far more cases than many countries have. More than 138,000 people in the state have tested positive for the virus, with nearly all of them in the city and nearby suburbs.

The initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found.

End quote.

So much for your spin.

rambot · Oct 16, 2020

chad kincham said:
Your reply is a bogus narrative, from start to finish.

No one takes from the blue states, though you could claim that the mass exodus of people from high taxes in blue states, to be the taking of those people by the red states.

What do blue states give that red states take?

Blue states are notoriously inefficient and incompetent, and are always begging for federal money.

And claiming Trump withheld information from blue states is ludicrous. Every single day he held a news conference where Drs. Fauci, Brix, and the surgeon general spoke and gave the latest updates and recommendations.

And if he had withheld information, red states would be in the dark equally with blue states.

You can’t spin it.

The virus spread so fast because, per the NY Times, as late as March 5, Cuomo and DeBlasiio told New Yorkers via the media, to continue living their lives normally, while calling Trumps shutdown of flights from China an overreaction and bigoted.

NY Times article:

A 39-year-old woman took Flight 701 from Doha, Qatar, to John F. Kennedy International Airport in late February, the final leg of her trip home to New York City from Iran.

A week later, on March 1, she tested positive for the coronavirus, the first confirmed case in New York City of an outbreak that had already devastated China and parts of Europe.

The next day, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, appearing with Mayor Bill de Blasio at a news conference, promised that health investigators would track down every person on the woman’s flight. But no one did.

A day later, a lawyer from New Rochelle, a New York City suburb, tested positive for the virus — an alarming sign because he had not traveled to any affected country, suggesting community spread was already taking place.

Although city investigators had traced the lawyer’s whereabouts and connections to the most crowded corridors of Manhattan, the state’s efforts focused on the suburb, not the city, and Mr. de Blasio urged the public not to worry. “We’ll tell you the second we think you should change your behavior,” the mayor said on March 5.

For many days after the first positive test, as the coronavirus silently spread throughout the New York region, Mr. Cuomo, Mr. de Blasio and their top aides projected an unswerving confidence that the outbreak would be readily contained.

There would be cases, they repeatedly said, but New York’s hospitals were some of the best in the world. Plans were in place. Responseshad been rehearsed during “tabletop” exercises. After all, the city had been here before — Ebola, Zika, the H1N1 virus, etc,

Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York,” Mr. Cuomo said on March 2. “So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”

But now, New York City and the surrounding suburbs have become the epicenter of the pandemic in the United States, with far more cases than many countries have. More than 138,000 people in the state have tested positive for the virus, with nearly all of them in the city and nearby suburbs.

The initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found.

End quote.

So much for your spin.

At least Cuomo had the excuse of having ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how this virus was going to spread, nor had any SOLID data to really inform his opinion.

Here we are...7 months later and Republican states are pooping the bed right now.

In my mind, there is a difference between not knowing or understanding the threat and being cautious, and knowing the EXACT threat and not doing anything about it.

What is there excuse?

chad kincham · Oct 16, 2020

rambot said:
At least Cuomo had the excuse of having ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how this virus was going to spread, nor had any SOLID data to really inform his opinion.

Here we are...7 months later and Republican states are pooping the bed right now.

In my mind, there is a difference between not knowing or understanding the threat and being cautious, and knowing the EXACT threat and not doing anything about it.

What is there excuse?

The claim that Trump did nothing about it, is a flat out lie.

Good job parroting the Democrat political talking points, though.

The NY Times article concluded this:

The initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found.

chad kincham · Oct 16, 2020

MorkandMindy said:
World - excluding US population and deaths - to date per 100k = 11.9
US total deaths to date per 100k = 65.6

I don’t know where your stats come from, but Johns Hopkins shows ten countries have a higher percentage of deaths per 100,000 than America.

The U.K. has 6.4% deaths per each 100,000 people.

The US has 2.7% deaths per each 100,000 people.

Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

rambot · Oct 16, 2020

chad kincham said:
The claim that Trump did nothing about it, is a flat out lie.

Good job parroting the Democrat political talking points, though.

The NY Times article concluded this:

The initial efforts by New York officials to stem the outbreak were hampered by their own confused guidance, unheeded warnings, delayed decisions and political infighting, The New York Times found.

Complete strawman to what I said guy.

Just ... A non sequitor

Pommer · Oct 16, 2020

chad kincham said:
I don’t know where your stats come from, but Johns Hopkins shows ten countries have a higher percentage of deaths per 100,000 than America.

The U.K. has 6.4% deaths per each 100,000 people.

The US has 2.7% deaths per each 100,000 people.

Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

You gave the case-fatality ratio, not the deaths/100k
That’d be this:

Ana the Ist · Oct 16, 2020

rambot said:
Chicago the only progressive pocket in the entire us?

Of course not....it's just an example.

Would it be reasonable to conclude that for every example of a conservative location with a higher life expectancy than a progressive location...the cause is conservatives policy?

I read research.

Can you link it? The summary you linked looks like they skipped the research part and just claimed correlation = causation .

Do you call things propaganda when you don't like them?
US State Policies, Politics, and Life Expectancy | Milbank Quarterly

I call them propaganda when thei biases appear to influence their research in the promotion of an agenda. They don't even hide their biases....here's the title of the first article in the opinion page.

A Master of Health Policy: Remembering the Incomparable Contributions of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Yttrium · Oct 16, 2020

I'm afraid I'm going to have to object to the idea of "progressive policies save lives" with regards to COVID-19. Just which progressive policies are we talking about here?

The policies that save lives are coming from the scientists. Unfortunately, we have Donald Trump tramping all over those policies and convincing other republican leaders to go against the policies. Republicans being wrong because of Trump doesn't automatically make the right thing a progressive thing. It just means that the Trump policies are amazingly dumb.

Skewpoint · Oct 16, 2020

Yttrium said:
I'm afraid I'm going to have to object to the idea of "progressive policies save lives" with regards to COVID-19. Just which progressive policies are we talking about here?

The policies that save lives are coming from the scientists. Unfortunately, we have Donald Trump tramping all over those policies and convincing other republican leaders to go against the policies. Republicans being wrong because of Trump doesn't automatically make the right thing a progressive thing. It just means that the Trump policies are amazingly dumb.

"Progressive policies" put a pandemic response team in last administration exactly for something like COVID. Then the Trump admin decided to split the team up to other areas with the reason of "we can just put back together when we need it." Spoiler alert: it didn't work.

rambot · Oct 16, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Of course not....it's just an example.

Would it be reasonable to conclude that for every example of a conservative location with a higher life expectancy than a progressive location...the cause is conservatives policy?

I don't know. What does the data suggest?

Can you link it? The summary you linked looks like they skipped the research part and just claimed correlation = causation
I call them propaganda when thei biases appear to influence their research in the promotion of an agenda. They don't even hide their biases....here's the title of the first article in the opinion page.

You just ad hominem them instead of considering and properly critiquing their work?

KCfromNC · Oct 17, 2020

ArmenianJohn said:
That's the phrase that comes to mind when I think about the tyrannical anti-drinking-and-driving laws.

It's also what I think of when I realize I can't go hunting in suburban neighborhoods. I mean sure, maybe a kid would get shot occasionally, but what about muh freedum?

KCfromNC · Oct 17, 2020

rambot said:
For sure. I mean, it's not factual so yes, you CAN go on and on:
1) Masks ARE designed to "meet certain standards and safety regulations. Not sure why you think they aren't. Perhaps you are only referring to cloth masks?
2)Cloth masks ARE designed to protect the wearer. They are just not as GOOD as a seatbelt. That doesn't mean they aren't designed for that purpose.

Yeah, for #2 it seems kinda weird to simultaneously claim that masks are tyranny and then imply hat the regulations for producing and using masks should be stricter to provide better protection. It's the kind of contradiction which makes me wonder what the real reasons are, because the ones being claimed don't make any sense.

KCfromNC · Oct 17, 2020

Yttrium said:
I'm afraid I'm going to have to object to the idea of "progressive policies save lives" with regards to COVID-19. Just which progressive policies are we talking about here?

The policies that save lives are coming from the scientists.

Well, when one party actively opposes the scientific consensus and courts people who want to have mythology taught in place of it, the other side kinda inherits the label of "understands reality" by default.

Progressive policies save lives

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