Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

Spiritual Jew · Oct 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
Where is your Scriptural proof of your private interpretation of eternal time? You are viewing eternity as a human. You claim time goes on forever. That is not God's eternity. In God's eternity there is no change and no time at all. The relationship of 1000 years as a Lord's Day only deals with this creation. Creation is finite, not indefinite. Creation has a beginning and end in God. God is the alpha and omega, the beginning and end. That is the definition of creation.

Is 5000 years any different than a day to God?

Even God the father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit only exist as part of this creation. They are the physical emminations of GOD only. That the Lamb is GOD is proof that GOD declared it happened even before Creation.

Can you try to explain clearly what you meant by this? You're giving the impression that you believe God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit were created. I hope I'm just misunderstanding you.

You accuse dispensationalist of messing with time. Separating the spiritual from the physical as not part of creation is an even greater error. The spiritual is just as much a physical aspect of current creation.

The disobedience of Adam caused the split between physical and spiritual. The 6th seal will reveal this split to all humanity. God will give living humans 5+ years before the final millennium to choose God or Satan. That is the reason those 5 descriptions in chapter 6 match up with those destroyed in chapter 19. That is why leading up to the final battle God reminds us that it is too late at that time with the thief in the night reference. Humans have had over 1900 years to be prepared, yet some will still choose to fight with Satan.

So, I guess you believe history will repeat itself? You speak about a final short time where Satan attacks God's people on a massive scale just before the millennium and everyone needs to choose God or Satan. That's the same type of scenario we see described in Rev 20:7-9, which occurs after the millennium. So, why would God allow history to basically repeat itself like that?

DavidPT · Oct 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I was not insinuating David or any Premil were insane. You need to reread my post. I was challenging his construction of something Amils do not believe and then his condemnation of the same by that false construction. It would be insane for Amils to do the same.

I didn't take it that way, so no worries on my part.

I know you better than that, that's not something you would do.

As to my and other Premils arguments in particular. What Amils need to keep in mind, we are arguing from our take on these things, and then trying to figure out, based on our take on things, how Amil can even logically work. The martyrs seen in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, these are not martyred during a time when the beast was, nor during a time when it is not, they are martyred once it ascends out of the pit first. Therefore, it is illogical to Premils that these in Revelation 20:4 can be martyred without the beast even ascending out of the pit first. This has to mean that when it initially ascends out of the pit, it must ascend out of the pit before the thousand years even end.

The fact the beast and satan work together, thus need one another, as Eric has pointed out, this tells us that neither can be in the pit at the time. During the thousand years, satan is in the pit, so this doesn't satisfy the requirement. And it can't be after the thousand years that the beast and satan work together like this if the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20;4 have already been martyred because of satan and the beast working together like this. That only leaves one option remaining, and that is this. When satan and the beast are working together like this, it is meaning before the thousand years even begin. That cannot work with Amil. That can only work with Premil.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---is referring to the martyrs seen here----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)?

Why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude that the little season the martyrs under the altar are told to rest during(Revelation 6:9), is meaning this very same 42 months that the beast reigns during?

You might be thinking, that's pretty much what Amils believe as well. No it isn't. Amils place that period of time after the thousand years, and what I am referring to here, since it is involving martyrs prior to the ending of the thousand years, this time period therefore has to fit an earlier time period before the thousand years have expired.

Timtofly · Oct 16, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I believe that the 3.5 days equates to Satan's little season described in Rev 20:7-9.

I believe Rev 11, 12 and 13 all symbolically represents a time when the dragon (Satan) and beast make war with the church but at the same time cannot stop the witness of the church (the preaching of the gospel) throughout the world. That time began after the resurrection of Christ. The coming in power of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost right after the ascension of Christ ensured that nothing was going to stop the gospel from going out into the world through the power of the Holy Spirit.

The two witnesses lay dead for 3.5 days. How in Revelation 20 does that corallate with Satan being destroyed by fire? In Revelation 11 the two witnesses die, in Revelation 20 Satan is destroyed. Nothing in Revelation 20 says the camp of saints lay dead for 3.5 days. One chapter has the 2 witnesses dead, the other has it reversed. The saints are alive and Satan is destroyed. How can both be alive and both are killed equally? Your symbolism may be intact, but two completely different results that cannot just be explained away in Scripture. One has to finagle alternate endings outside of Scripture.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
I didn't take it that way, so no worries on my part. I know you better than that, that's not something you would do.

As to my and other Premils arguments in particular. What Amils need to keep in mind, we are arguing from our take on these things, and then trying to figure out, based on our take on things, how Amil can even logically work.

When it comes to our interpretations of more difficult passages such as some of those we find in Revelation, you will never figure out how amil works logically from a human logic perspective because we don't try to interpret passages like those the same way you'd read a newspaper or magazine article (where everything is written in a straightforward manner). The deeper things that we discuss can only be spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 2:10-14
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. 11 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Does this passage teach that we should approach scripture, especially some of the "deep things of God" that we discuss here, in a logical way or in a spiritual way? Spiritual things are not always logical to the human mind.

When it comes to interpreting books like Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah or Revelation we can't hope to interpret them accurately without the Spirit revealing their true meaning to us. With that in mind, why do you think you can rely solely on human logic to interpret those prophecies (at least, it comes across that way).

Now, other scripture that isn't written in figurative or symbolic language is usually pretty straightforward and logical. The amil doctrine is based primarily on straightforward, logical passages like Matthew 24:29-51, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:3-13.

The difference I see between amil and premil is that amil creates it doctrinal foundation on clear passages like the ones I referenced above and then tries to rely on spiritual discernment to interpret more difficult passages like Rev 20 while always keeping in mind to not interpret those difficult passages in such a way that it contradicts more clear scripture.

Premil, on the other hand, has its doctrinal foundation based on prophetic books that undeniably contain a great deal of oftentimes difficult to discern figurative language like Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation and they base their understanding of all other scripture on how they interpret those passages. I don't think that's a good approach.

The martyrs seen in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, these are not martyred during a time when the beast was, nor during a time when it is not, they are martyred once it ascends out of the pit first. Therefore, it is illogical to Premils that these in Revelation 20:4 can be martyred without the beast even ascending out of the pit first. This has to mean that when it initially ascends out of the pit, it must ascend out of the pit before the thousand years even end.

The fact the beast and satan work together, thus need one another, as Eric has pointed out, this tells us that neither can be in the pit at the time. During the thousand years, satan is in the pit, so this doesn't satisfy the requirement. And it can't be after the thousand years that the beast and satan work together like this if the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20;4 have already been martyred because of satan and the beast working together like this. That only leaves one option remaining, and that is this. When satan and the beast are working together like this, it is meaning before the thousand years even begin. That cannot work with Amil. That can only work with Premil.

I did show you how it can work for amil. Did you read that post? Your view is purely based on the assumption that scripture only talks about what the beast will do in the future.

Can you tell me your understanding of the identity of the beast? Would you agree that understanding the identity of the beast is important in determining what the beast's activities are at any given time in history? Remember, it "was, is not, and will ascend from the abyss". Whatever or whoever you think the beast is has to agree with that description.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---is referring to the martyrs seen here----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)?

The souls John saw there had already not worshipped the beast and "were slain for the word of God" before that. It doesn't say how long before. So, what point exactly are you making here?

Why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude that the little season the martyrs under the altar are told to rest during(Revelation 6:9), is meaning this very same 42 months that the beast reigns during?

Actually, I don't equate the little season with the 42 months. I believe it comes after the 42 months. I equate the little season with the 3.5 days that occurs after the two witnesses are finished with their testimony for 1260 days (Rev 11:1-12) which happens while the holy city is trampled by the heathen.

You might be thinking, that's pretty much what Amils believe as well.

Maybe some amils, but not me.

No it isn't. Amils place that period of time after the thousand years, and what I am referring to here, since it is involving martyrs prior to the ending of the thousand years, this time period therefore has to fit an earlier time period before the thousand years have expired.

This is all based on your assumption that the 42 months refers to a future time (which not all amils believe, including me) and that the 42 months is the only time in which people worship the beast, but what about when the beast "was" (not in the pit - Rev 17:8).

Even if the 42 months was a future time, why couldn't John have been seeing those who refused to worship the beast and were killed when the beast "was" (Rev 17:8)? When you place everything in Revelation in the future, it makes a lot of things written there not make sense.

Timtofly · Oct 16, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
What difference does that make if the one thousand years is meant to be understood symbolically? Which amils obviously believe it does. Whether or not the term would normally in literal, straightforward text (which Rev 20 is not) mean literally "one thousand" is irrelevant because we're talking about a highly figurative book here.

Take, for example, the reference to "the beast". Since it's THE beast it's referring to one beast, right? So, it's a literal beast then, right? No. The beast is symbolic. Just like the thousand years.

The one thousand years is symbolic of the final Day. A day that last for 1000 years. If John had said the Day of the Lord 6 times instead of 1000, the Day of the Lord would be symbolic of a 1000 year period. Which is symbolic and which is literal? The Day of the Lord, or 1000 years? They both cannot be literal and they both cannot be symbolic. One is literal the other symbolism. Your choice.

Timtofly · Oct 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
I know the 4 Gospels do. But per that other post that went over my head, you seemed to suggest that the harvest doesn't end with the end of the age, but continues post that point. Actually, I'm not sure what you were trying to convey, not because I'm incapable of grasping things, but mainly because I'm not familiar with the position you are proposing.

In the 6th seal, God on the throne and the Lamb come to earth. Revelation 6.

Compare that to the parable where the Lord of the earth sent the prophets to the wicked stewards of the field. They killed the prophets. Then the Lord sent His Son. They killed His Son. The 6th seal is when the Lord comes to earth to take away those wicked stewards, one being Satan, himself. The field represents the harvest of the world throughout time. Now the final harvest is upon us alive today.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
The two witnesses lay dead for 3.5 days. How in Revelation 20 does that corallate with Satan being destroyed by fire? In Revelation 11 the two witnesses die, in Revelation 20 Satan is destroyed.

You apparently misunderstood my point. I'm equating the time when the beast ascends out of the abyss/pit with the time the dragon (Satan) does. The two witnesses are symbolic for the church and Rev 20 shows Satan uniting people together and going up against the church. Notice it shows the two witnesses being dead but then they are resurrected and caught up to God, which reminds me of 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Nothing in Revelation 20 says the camp of saints lay dead for 3.5 days.

Here we go again with the idea that if two passages don't contain all the same details then they can't be related. But, we all know that isn't true.

One chapter has the 2 witnesses dead, the other has it reversed. The saints are alive and Satan is destroyed. How can both be alive and both are killed equally? Your symbolism may be intact, but two completely different results that cannot just be explained away in Scripture. One has to finagle alternate endings outside of Scripture.

Did you miss the part where the 2 witnesses are resurrected? I really am not seeing your point here.

iamlamad · Oct 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
I didn't take it that way, so no worries on my part. I know you better than that, that's not something you would do.

As to my and other Premils arguments in particular. What Amils need to keep in mind, we are arguing from our take on these things, and then trying to figure out, based on our take on things, how Amil can even logically work. The martyrs seen in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, these are not martyred during a time when the beast was, nor during a time when it is not, they are martyred once it ascends out of the pit first. Therefore, it is illogical to Premils that these in Revelation 20:4 can be martyred without the beast even ascending out of the pit first. This has to mean that when it initially ascends out of the pit, it must ascend out of the pit before the thousand years even end.

...

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---is referring to the martyrs seen here----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)?

Why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude that the little season the martyrs under the altar are told to rest during(Revelation 6:9), is meaning this very same 42 months that the beast reigns during?

You might be thinking, that's pretty much what Amils believe as well. No it isn't. Amils place that period of time after the thousand years, and what I am referring to here, since it is involving martyrs prior to the ending of the thousand years, this time period therefore has to fit an earlier time period before the thousand years have expired.

Sorry, clicked the wrong button. Now I have to type in the edit mode.

This is a very interesting post. I want to add some thoughts.

For those that do concern themselves with CONTEXT, the 5th seal is early church age as proven by the message of chapters 4 & 5: John got to see the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD. Of course, since martyrs are STILL being added to the church, this seal is where the church has been waiting now for around 2000 years. (Seal 6 starts the Day of the Lord.)

For those that pay attention to and understand John's chronology, they know where the 70th week begins (the 7th seal) and where it ends (the 7th vial) they therefore know that the bottomless pit gets opened in the first half of the week, and therefore is not closed again until Satan is bound - at the start of the 1000 years - after the 70th week has finished. They know that chapter 20 about the beheaded martyrs is after the 1000 years has begun. They are serving with Jesus Christ, as is all those seen seated on thrones. They know that the days of GT Jesus spoke of are in the second half of the week, from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial. So of course any martyrs of the 70th week are not in any way associated with the martyrs of the 5th seal.

The 5th seal martyrs are told they must wait for the full number killed as they were. But martyrs are killed in any number of ways. The way in which a martyr is put to death is not what is meant. They are a group of martyrs: church age martyrs. "killed as they were" means killed as church age martyrs. In other words, judgment will not come until the final church age martyr is killed. What will end the church age and make some martyr the very last to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs? It will be the pretrib rapture that ends the church age and triggers the start of the Day of the Lord.

It is no accident that John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal that starts the DAY. He saw this huge group too large to number in heaven before any part of the 70th week is started. That is why some people are PRE-trib. We see the rapture happening before any part of "the trib" or 70th week.

We know that PEOPLE (with one exception) can't rise up out of hell or a bottomless pit under their own power: therefore chapter 17 is showing the SPIRIT behind (and the power of) the AC Beast of chapter 13. It is the spirit behind the Beast that "was," "is not," and will come again.

OF COURSE the beheaded martyrs in chapter 20 are killed during the time of the Beast. Beheading will be the way the Beast and False Prophet murder all those who refuse their mark.

In short, if people just accept the truth that Revelation is chronological, and don't try to rearrange, they will be better off in doctrine. (Some parentheses are an exception. )

iamlamad · Oct 16, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
...

The difference I see between amil and premil is that amil creates it doctrinal foundation on clear passages like the ones I referenced above and then tries to rely on spiritual discernment to interpret more difficult passages like Rev 20 while always keeping in mind to not interpret those difficult passages in such a way that it contradicts more clear scripture.

Premil, on the other hand, has its doctrinal foundation based on prophetic books that undeniably contain a great deal of oftentimes difficult to discern figurative language like Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Revelation and they base their understanding of all other scripture on how they interpret those passages. I don't think that's a good approach.
...

The difference I see between amil and premil is that amil creates it doctrinal foundation on clear passages like the ones I referenced above and then tries to rely on spiritual discernment to interpret more difficult passages like Rev 20... Ah! Spoken like a true amil!

I would say the difference is simple: premil understands the passages like Rev, 20 and consider it a clear passage.

Why the big difference on how we see chapter 20? I think it comes with reading with preconceptions. If one could only read scripture without ANY preconceptions, I think they would be shocked at some of their doctrine. I am convinced differences in doctrine or end time theories comes from people reading with preconceived glasses. It is very understandable that when people who believe in amil read Revelation 20, they know it simply does not fit what they know for truth, so it must not mean what it says.

Case in point: WHY would "thousand years" and "the thousand years" be difficult in itself. Exactly how would God write it if He MEANT it to say a thousand years? To premils, "thousand years, or "the thousand years" is very clear language when compared to a beast with 7 heads. Just do a google search on "a thousand years" and you will find examples. On the other hand, search on "beast with seven heads" and probably all that Goggle will find will relate to the bible.

If the truth be told, a great majority of words and phrases in Revelation are very clear and easy to understand. That is why premil takes much of Revelation literally: it makes good sense literally. Anyone can make Revelation say almost anything if they are willing to take clear verses and passages and imagine they are symbolic of something else. Everyone then comes up with their own theory on the symbols and we have a hundred teachers teaching a hundred different theories.

But the way, did anyone imagine the "a hundred teachers" meant something else?

iamlamad · Oct 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
In the 6th seal, God on the throne and the Lamb come to earth. Revelation 6.

You cannot find God on the throne coming to earth at the 6th seal. That is myth.

Zao is life · Oct 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The figure a “thousand years” is employed ten times in Scripture – twice in the Old Testament and eight times in the New Testament. Significantly,

Just for the record, the Old Testament verses you quoted use the word 'eleph for "a thousand" and that word appears many, many more times than only the twice you mention. Sometimes it's used as referring to a thousand and sometimes more - whenever another word is added in front of it.

Ecclesiastes is not the first time it appears denoting one thousand. The first time is in Genesis 20:16.

Very often 'eleph appears with numbers in front of it denoting more than a thousand, for example the way we would say six hundred thousand in English as in Exodus 12:37: shêsh (six) mê'yâh (hundred) 'eleph (thousand). There is a long list of Old Testament verses containing the word 'eleph, often translated into both the KJV and the YLT as thousands (plural).

We would need a Hebrew expert to tell us whether 'eleph always means a thousand or whether it can also mean thousands.

The Greek is easier - chiliás used all by itself always denotes a thousand (one thousand). When thousands (plural) is meant, then in each and every case, other numbers are either added in front of chiliás, or another word is used, such as pentakischílioi (pente: five, chilioi: thousand) - five thousand, as in Matthew 14:21.

claninja · Oct 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
I didn't take it that way, so no worries on my part. I know you better than that, that's not something you would do.

As to my and other Premils arguments in particular. What Amils need to keep in mind, we are arguing from our take on these things, and then trying to figure out, based on our take on things, how Amil can even logically work. The martyrs seen in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, these are not martyred during a time when the beast was, nor during a time when it is not, they are martyred once it ascends out of the pit first. Therefore, it is illogical to Premils that these in Revelation 20:4 can be martyred without the beast even ascending out of the pit first. This has to mean that when it initially ascends out of the pit, it must ascend out of the pit before the thousand years even end.

The fact the beast and satan work together, thus need one another, as Eric has pointed out, this tells us that neither can be in the pit at the time. During the thousand years, satan is in the pit, so this doesn't satisfy the requirement. And it can't be after the thousand years that the beast and satan work together like this if the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20;4 have already been martyred because of satan and the beast working together like this. That only leaves one option remaining, and that is this. When satan and the beast are working together like this, it is meaning before the thousand years even begin. That cannot work with Amil. That can only work with Premil.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---is referring to the martyrs seen here----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)?

Why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude that the little season the martyrs under the altar are told to rest during(Revelation 6:9), is meaning this very same 42 months that the beast reigns during?

You might be thinking, that's pretty much what Amils believe as well. No it isn't. Amils place that period of time after the thousand years, and what I am referring to here, since it is involving martyrs prior to the ending of the thousand years, this time period therefore has to fit an earlier time period before the thousand years have expired.

The saints were already facing suffering and persecution in the 1st century. They were waiting for the 2nd coming which would grant relief to them from their persecution

2 thessalonians 2:4-8 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

The Beast and kings of the earth did gather together against the Lord at the Cross:
Acts 4:25-27 “‘Why did the Gentiles rage,and the peoples plot in vain?The kings of the earth set themselves,and the rulers were gathered together,against the Lord and against his Anointed’e—for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army

Considering the beast "was" and "is" when John was writing all they way back in the 1st century, why does premil confine the martyrs of revelation 20:4 to 3.5 years?

revelation 17:9 9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while

Zao is life · Oct 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
As I read Revelation, the 42 months starts at the midpoint of the week, which in Revelation is marked by the 7th trumpet - as proven by the fleeing which starts a second or two later, as seen in 12:6.

The above verses, in particular the message of the third angel and the next verse, about the patience of the saints, is telling us that the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of is JUST ABOUT to begin: meaning, the Beast and False Prophet are just about to begin enforcing the worship of the image and receiving the mark. It is no coincidence that the beheaded just begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15.

How strange then that some people imagine the days of GT are at the 5th seal.

I see the 70th week of Daniel "Marked" by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it.

It is no coincidence that there are 5 mentions of the 3.5 years in chapters 11, 12, and 13. These are midpoint chapters.

Yes, I'm aware that you are Pre-trib, whereas I'm post-trib. So the way we understand the Revelation will be somewhat different, as will the way Amils understand the Revelation be very different to the way both of us understand it. I don't believe in the "70th week at the end of the age". When it comes to Daniel's 70th week, I fall into the Amil camp (which is the only time I fall into their prophecy camp).

Zao is life · Oct 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
The fact the beast and satan work together, thus need one another, as Eric has pointed out, this tells us that neither can be in the pit at the time. During the thousand years, satan is in the pit, so this doesn't satisfy the requirement.

And it can't be after the thousand years that the beast and satan work together like this if the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20;4 have already been martyred because of satan and the beast working together like this.

That only leaves one option remaining, and that is this. When satan and the beast are working together like this, it is meaning before the thousand years even begin. That cannot work with Amil. That can only work with Premil.

Well spotted!

iamlamad · Oct 16, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The more I study scripture, the more I understand the Dispensationalist's "signs" of Christ's return fly in the face of what Christ said about no man knows the day or hour of His return.

How many "Blood Moons" books does it take for us to see the truth about the Dispensationalist's claims?
How many refunds did they give when their book was proven wrong?

Hal Lindsay used to teach Christ would have to come back by 1988, because it was "one generation" after 1948.
When will we learn not to trust these people?

.

That was certainly a good sidestep of avoiding a question. Perhaps you did not like the question: It was a simple question. You said you are looking for Him every moment.

"Are you saying then that you don't find anything in scripture that must happen before Christ comes again?" I will give some examples of what some expect to see first before they see Jesus:

The AC Beast
The False Prophet
The days of GT.

My point, in case you missed it: in my thinking it is very difficult to be expecting Jesus coming TONIGHT when in one's heart they think they will see the Beast first.

sovereigngrace · Oct 16, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Just for the record, the Old Testament verses you quoted use the word 'eleph for "a thousand" and that word appears many, many more times than only the twice you mention. Sometimes it's used as referring to a thousand and sometimes more - whenever another word is added in front of it.

Ecclesiastes is not the first time it appears denoting one thousand. The first time is in Genesis 20:16.

Very often 'eleph appears with numbers in front of it denoting more than a thousand, for example the way we would say six hundred thousand in English as in Exodus 12:37: shêsh (six) mê'yâh (hundred) 'eleph (thousand). There is a long list of Old Testament verses containing the word 'eleph, often translated into both the KJV and the YLT as thousands (plural).

We would need a Hebrew expert to tell us whether 'eleph always means a thousand or whether it can also mean thousands.

The Greek is easier - chiliás used all by itself always denotes a thousand (one thousand). When thousands (plural) is meant, then in each and every case, other numbers are either added in front of chiliás, or another word is used, such as pentakischílioi (pente: five, chilioi: thousand) - five thousand, as in Matthew 14:21.

I was talking in the singular, not the plural.

sovereigngrace · Oct 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
I didn't take it that way, so no worries on my part. I know you better than that, that's not something you would do.

Thanks for that!

As to my and other Premils arguments in particular. What Amils need to keep in mind, we are arguing from our take on these things, and then trying to figure out, based on our take on things, how Amil can even logically work. The martyrs seen in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, these are not martyred during a time when the beast was, nor during a time when it is not, they are martyred once it ascends out of the pit first. Therefore, it is illogical to Premils that these in Revelation 20:4 can be martyred without the beast even ascending out of the pit first. This has to mean that when it initially ascends out of the pit, it must ascend out of the pit before the thousand years even end.

The fact the beast and satan work together, thus need one another, as Eric has pointed out, this tells us that neither can be in the pit at the time. During the thousand years, satan is in the pit, so this doesn't satisfy the requirement. And it can't be after the thousand years that the beast and satan work together like this if the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20;4 have already been martyred because of satan and the beast working together like this. That only leaves one option remaining, and that is this. When satan and the beast are working together like this, it is meaning before the thousand years even begin. That cannot work with Amil. That can only work with Premil.

The wheels go off the wagon when you insist on literal physical chains holding Satan and his minions in a literal physical prison. You force this mistaken Premil interpretation on Amil and it does not fit. We do not believe that. We look upon the dragon, chain, prison, seal and thousand years as figurative descriptions pertaining to the spiritual restraint endured by Satan since the first resurrection.

The wicked are depicted as being in chains and in a prison before salvation. We all know that that is not literal. Also, repeated scripture shows the binding of Satan and his minions since the earthly ministry of Christ. So, when we get into the most symbolic book in the Bible, it is not difficult to get your head around the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles since the resurrection – the first resurrection.

The fate of the beast is closely tied to Satan. They were both bound from the first resurrection (Christ’s) and will be released shortly before the second coming for their final throw before being eternally punished.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. You would need to rip more than Revelation 20 out of the Bible for it to contradict other Scripture. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude---until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were---is referring to the martyrs seen here----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)?

Why would it be incorrect of Premils, such as me, to conclude that the little season the martyrs under the altar are told to rest during(Revelation 6:9), is meaning this very same 42 months that the beast reigns during?

You might be thinking, that's pretty much what Amils believe as well. No it isn't. Amils place that period of time after the thousand years, and what I am referring to here, since it is involving martyrs prior to the ending of the thousand years, this time period therefore has to fit an earlier time period before the thousand years have expired.

But we Amils see the people of God as having been persecuted by Satan and the beast from the beginning. We see this as describing the spirit behind the kingdom of darkness that submits to the will of Satan. This is the antithesis of the Trinity.

The beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition and that Wicked one are the one same evil entity has been about for 2,000 yrs+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man. Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:9-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 8:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-12 prove my point. His mark has been around as he has!

I believe the bruising of the head of the beast correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan and that they connect with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan. I believe they are all figurative metaphors describing the defeat of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

The binding of Satan at the cross and his casting into the abyss – a place of restraint – is paralleled with the beast experiencing the same. They are both so interconnected and interdependent on each other that they mirror each other in their experiences.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
The difference I see between amil and premil is that amil creates it doctrinal foundation on clear passages like the ones I referenced above and then tries to rely on spiritual discernment to interpret more difficult passages like Rev 20... Ah! Spoken like a true amil!

Thanks! I guess that means I'm not a fake amil then. Good to know.

I would say the difference is simple: premil understands the passages like Rev, 20 and consider it a clear passage.

A passage that talks about a dragon being chained and cast into an abyss/bottomless pit is clear to you. Okay, sure. Reading Rev 20 is no different than reading a newspaper or magazine article, right? Very clear and straightforward without any figurative language to discern or anything like that, right?

Why the big difference on how we see chapter 20? I think it comes with reading with preconceptions. If one could only read scripture without ANY preconceptions, I think they would be shocked at some of their doctrine.

I agree. I used to have the preconception that what is described in Rev 20 must chronologically follow what is described in Rev 19 because the number 20 comes after the number 19 chronologically. Then, later, I noticed other parts of Revelation weren't chronological (like Rev 11 and 12), so it didn't make sense for me to assume that about Rev 19 and 20.

I am convinced differences in doctrine or end time theories comes from people reading with preconceived glasses. It is very understandable that when people who believe in amil read Revelation 20, they know it simply does not fit what they know for truth, so it must not mean what it says.

Wrong. We all (premils and amils) believe it means what it says. We just don't agree on what it means. Since it includes figurative language, it does not make any sense to think we should read it the same as a clear, straightforward passage that does not contain figurative language.

Case in point: WHY would "thousand years" and "the thousand years" be difficult in itself. Exactly how would God write it if He MEANT it to say a thousand years? To premils, "thousand years, or "the thousand years" is very clear language when compared to a beast with 7 heads. Just do a google search on "a thousand years" and you will find examples. On the other hand, search on "beast with seven heads" and probably all that Goggle will find will relate to the bible.

It would not be difficult if it was contained within a book that did not contain a great deal of figurative language. But, Revelation obviously does.

Can you tell me if the following passage is referring to a literal thousand generations?

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Would God not keep his covenant of love with those who lived in the 1001st generation? Would they be out of luck?

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Is this referring to cattle being on a literal thousand hills?

Clearly, the word "thousand" can, and has, been used figuratively in scripture so there's no reason to think that can't be the case in Rev 20 as well.

If the truth be told, a great majority of words and phrases in Revelation are very clear and easy to understand. That is why premil takes much of Revelation literally: it makes good sense literally. Anyone can make Revelation say almost anything if they are willing to take clear verses and passages and imagine they are symbolic of something else. Everyone then comes up with their own theory on the symbols and we have a hundred teachers teaching a hundred different theories.

If "a great majority of words and phrases in Revelation are very clear and easy to understand then why did Jesus say "Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches" in each of his seven messages to the seven churches of the old province of Asia? Was He not saying that spiritual discernment was required to understand what He was saying? But, you act like any random person off the street who has never read the Bible could understand it.

What was the point of John seeing a number of prophetic visions of non-literal things like seven lampstands, seven stars, a sharp, double edged sword coming out of Christ's mouth, Satan's throne, a Lamb, golden bowls full of incense filled with prayers, a pale horse whose rider is Death, locusts, scorpions, seven thunders, two olive trees and lampstands, a woman clothed with the sun, a beast with seven heads and ten horns, a dragon with seven heads and ten horns, a second beast with two horns and so on if most of the book is supposed to be interpreted literally?

But the way, did anyone imagine the "a hundred teachers" meant something else?

It could if the term was found within a very figurative book like Revelation.

Zao is life · Oct 16, 2020

I know you never spoke to me, but I'm also butting in to answer:

claninja said:
The saints were already facing suffering and persecution in the 1st century. They were waiting for the 2nd coming which would grant relief to them from their persecution

2 thessalonians 2:4-8 Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

True, but does not preclude saints being martyred by the beast ascended out of the abyss during the 42 months preceding the Lord's return.

When Nero was turning Christian into torches, there was a period of great tribulation for the saints. When ISIS beheads Christians, it's tribulation. When Boko Haram are burning churches in Nigeria, it's tribulation for Christians. Jesus told us we will have tribulation in this world. So when Amil states that the great tribulation period is the period in-between the first 3.5 years following the Lord's death and resurrection of Christ and His return, they are partially correct.

Amil has the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Christ and refusal to worship the beast which ascended from the abyss, happening at the beginning of a symbolic thousand years, because it has to fit with a symbolic thousand years - which does not begin chronologically after the beast ascended out of the abyss (per Amil).

claninja said:
The Beast and kings of the earth did gather together against the Lord at the Cross:
Acts 4:25-27 “‘Why did the Gentiles rage,and the peoples plot in vain?The kings of the earth set themselves,and the rulers were gathered together,against the Lord and against his Anointed’e—for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army

Well, without trying to change your opinion on that (I know I can't), may I say that I cannot understand how yourself (or any Amils) could possibly come to such a conclusion. The Jews and their leaders are not the nations. The prophecy had a partial fulfillment but it's not the ultimate fulfillment of it, in the same way that Elijah shall come, but John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah.

claninja said:
Considering the beast "was" and "is" when John was writing all they way back in the 1st century, why does premil confine the martyrs of revelation 20:4 to 3.5 years?

Because Revelation 11 & 13, and Daniel 7 confines it to 3.5 years.

claninja said:
Revelation 17:9 9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while

The same passages states that the beast being spoken of existed ("was") at a time before John received the Revelation, did not exit ("was not") at the time John received the Revelation, and will ascend out of the abyss and go to perdition.

This is the same beast that

1. Revelation 13 states will make war with the saints and overcome them; and that
2. Revelation 11 states will make war with the two witnesses, overcome them and kill them when they have completed their testimony (which Revelation 11 states will take place 3 1/2 days before the resurrection); and
3. It's the same beast that the Revelation 17 states will hate the city the Revelation calls a "harlot" and "Babylon the Great", and will "render her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire"; and
4. It's the same beast that Revelation 17 states will make war against the Lamb and be overcome by Him; and
5. It's the same beast that Revelation 16 states will gather it's armies together for the battle of Armageddon; and i
6. It's the same beast that Revelation 19 shows Christ coming down with His armies to defeat; and
7. It's the same beast that the Revelation says will then be cast into the lake of fire with its false prophet.

That beast does not exist now. It's in the abyss. The key to the abyss is given to a star fallen from heaven and the abyss is opened - and that's when the beast ascends out of it.

The Revelation is not retroactively referring to something else that had already past by the time Jesus gave John the Revelation.

Zao is life · Oct 16, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Thank you for saying that. It honestly took a lot of time and effort, so it's good to know that it was appreciated even by someone who disagrees with my conclusions.

For the sake of saving space, I'm not going to quote your entire post. Your post was long (like mine) and wasn't easy to follow, but I get the gist of what you're trying to say. Thank you for taking the time to explain your understanding of the beast.

I know you think you have made an airtight argument here, but, probably not to your surprise, I don't find it to be convincing. It's a little disappointing that you didn't really respond directly to any of the points I made, but I will respond directly to a couple of yours.

I think it's fair to conclude that the fourth beast that Daniel prophesied about is the same beast (the first beast) that John prophesied about in the book of Revelation. The beast that was, is not and will ascend out of the abyss.

What needs to be kept in mind when interpreting Daniel 7:17-27 is that it is an explanation of the visions Daniel had just prior to that.

15 “I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.

Which included a vision of four beasts and their descriptions as well as this vision:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

It should be obvious that this is speaking of Jesus (the Son of Man) and I'm sure you would agree. But, what is the timing of this vision? Is this an unfulfilled future event as you believe (I assume that since part of Daniel 7:17-27 contains the explanation of this vision and you believe Daniel 7:17-27 all occurs in the future) or is a vision of something that occurred in the past (our past, not Daniel's).

I believe this passage should be understood to be speaking of the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven after His resurrection rather than His second coming as most premils believe. Notice it speaks of Him approaching the Ancient of Days, which I'm sure most of us would agree is a reference to God the Father. Where else would this happen except in heaven?

Note the similarities in Daniel 7:13-14 to this:

Ephesians 1:18-23
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

In this passage, Paul declares that when God raised Christ from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in heaven (a clear reference to what occurred upon Christ's ascension) Christ was then in a position "far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked". Compare that to Daniel 7:13-14 which indicates that He would "be given authority, glory and sovereign power" and it should then be easy to deduce that the timing of the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 was when Christ was resurrected and then caught up to heaven at the right hand of God the Father.

So, this establishes the timing of what Daniel was talking about in Daniel 7:17-27. He was not just prophesying about a future time (from now) as premils believe, but rather of a time that would begin when Christ was resurrected and ascended to heaven. This must be taken into account when trying to interpret Daniel 7:17-27.

First of all, Rev 13 does not describe the beat ascending out of the abyss. It talks about the beast ascending "out of the sea". I made this same point to David. How do you know that "the sea" should be understood as being the same as the abyss? If that was the case, why wasn't John given a vision of the beast coming out of the abyss rather than "the sea"? I see no reason to equate the two as if the timing of the beast coming out of the sea has to be the same as the beast coming out of the pit.

If the 42 months and the 1260 days of Revelation 11 refer to the same time period as the 42 months of Rev 13:5, as I believe, then that would be all the evidence we need to prove that the timing of the beast coming out of the sea is not the same as the beast coming out of the pit. Allow me to explain.

Rev 11:1-6
I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

In Rev 13:5 it says "the beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months". To me this lines up with God allowing the Gentiles (heathen) to "trample on the holy city for 42 months".

But, at the same time, despite the beast wreaking havoc during that time, the two witnesses (which I believe symbolically represent the witness of the church) cannot be harmed. I believe that is a symbolic representation of the fact that the gates of hell will not prevail over the church (Matt 16:18). So, the 42 months (1260 days, time, times and half a time) that follow the ascension of the beast out of the sea symbolically represent the time since Christ's resurrection.

It's important to note that the beast doe not ascend out of the abyss/pit until after the two witnesses "have finished their testimony" (Rev 11:7). Which means he does not ascend out of the abyss until after the 42 months/1260 days. You have him ascending out of the abyss at the beginning of the 42 months. Rev 11 shows that he will have 3.5 days (Rev 11:7-12) to make war against the two witnesses (the church) and overcome them. Since you understand the time periods literally (I assume) then how can Rev 11:7-12 (the time of the beast after coming out of the abyss) refer to the same time period as Rev 13:1-8 (the time of the beast coming out of the sea) in your view?

I believe that the 3.5 days equates to Satan's little season described in Rev 20:7-9.

I believe Rev 11, 12 and 13 all symbolically represents a time when the dragon (Satan) and beast make war with the church but at the same time cannot stop the witness of the church (the preaching of the gospel) throughout the world. That time began after the resurrection of Christ. The coming in power of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost right after the ascension of Christ ensured that nothing was going to stop the gospel from going out into the world through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, I believe the answer to that question is premils.

I believe premil "mentally adjusts the meaning" of many passages of clear, straightforward scripture. These would include Matt 24:35-39, John 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:3-13 among many others.

OK I've read your post and it's just making it obvious again that if we interpret everything symbolically instead of understanding that the symbols refer to real people, real things and real events (example the great chain in the hand of the angel that binds Satan in the abyss) is a symbol of the fact that the devil is to be completely and utterly incapacitated in a place somewhere in the spirit realm that we cannot see but we know as the bottomless pit (I prefer abyss because it better reflects the Greek word and is easier and faster to type).

It's symbols which speak of real events, real beings, real places which we cannot see with our human eyes but which God can see.

With regard to the part of Daniel which you brought up:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

It is absolutely true that He has already received His everlasting dominion - but as Hebrews 2:8 tells us, we do not yet see all things placed under His feet.

Why?

Well that will just bring us to another thing that we will never agree on - my answer to the "Why"? will be "because Satan is not bound yet" - but your position will immediately refute (in your mind) what I said - and another circle of arguments about why Satan is bound now vs why he isn't will ensue (and that's already gone round in this thread but won't be resolved).

So.. one thing I've realized is that we believe in the same God, worship the same Messiah as our Savior, understand that He is only our Lord, individually, to the extent that we submit to Him, individually, and we all believe in His return, and we all believe in the GWT and the new heavens and the new earth..

.. and we agree on many other things, but when it comes to this Bible that we all both cherish and believe in, and accept as the Word of God, we hear different messages with regard to certain things coming from God, and we seem divided into groups (well not seem, we are divided into groups which we call Pre-mil, A-mil etc)

.. and we are never going to agree.

I apologize if I have not got to answering all the points you point out, but it's once again late my part of this crazy planet and I'm too tired to go on now, even though I would want to, out of respect - but I know that we are going to merely go into the same (the very same) arguments and counter-arguments regarding the meaning of the scriptures we quote from the same Bible we believe and cherish - and it's because our starting premise for interpreting these passages in question is completely different, and there is only common ground in very few things, such as that we all believe in the return of Christ, the GWT and the new heavens and the new earth.

God bless and good evening/afternoon/night (whatever time it is in your part of the planet).

I don't know if I want to debate this anymore or add to it - because I've realized for once and forever that Premils and Amils are only going to agree on this stuff when the Lord has returned, or maybe before that, when the beast ascends out of the abyss.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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