Third Temple Scam in modern Jerusalem?

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nolidad

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Because that doesn't mean what you think it means. God isn't stopping people from sinning (we have free will). He removed the penalty....He atoned for our sins. IOW....He doesn't hold our sins against us.

All this is fulfilled:

Daniel 9:24
to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Now all you need do is to prove your re-interpretation of this passage is really what God meant to say!

Because what is written
1. Finish a specific trangression
2. stop or finish of sinning
3. atone for iniquity (done)

What is written is not what you say it means so defend that your meaning should be accepted instead of the words written and their everyday meanings.
 
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nolidad

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Fulfilled.

This is part of True Israel (the disciples as well):

Acts 2:22-24
People of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus the Nazarene by doing powerful miracles, wonders, and signs through him, as you well know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

V. 33
Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

V. 39
This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”


Well here is the Covenant God made with the whole house of Israel :

JER. 31:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Now show how this has been fully fulfilled to the nation of Israel!
 
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nolidad

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Speaking of people not making sense...

When do you think Jesus is going to "fully fulfill" the New Covenant?

Have you cut John 19:30 out of your Bible?

David H.J. Gay on the fulfillment of the New Covenant:



.

Well then show how the new covenant is completely fuflilled.

when Jesus said it was finished- He was not saying the new covenant fulfillment was finished, but the price for sin was paid in full (tetelestai)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Simply show when verse 33 was fiulfilled also verse 34 to the whole nation of Israel.
 
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nolidad

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Speaking of people not making sense...

When do you think Jesus is going to "fully fulfill" the New Covenant?

Have you cut John 19:30 out of your Bible?

David H.J. Gay on the fulfillment of the New Covenant:



.

Listened to David Gay! I love that guy! He preaches the same things I do with the same kind of vigor I do! but He did not say as you allege that the new covenant is fulfilled, but that the old covenant is fulfilled and rendered obsolete. We are living in the new covenant now! Jesus blood is the basis for the new covenant!

But not all features of teh covenant have been fulfilled as even a cursory readinf of Jeremaih 31 shows and if we we asked David Gay ( I think he is a dispy) would agree.

Right now we are in this:

Rom. 11:
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

but even gay did not say the new covenant has been fulfilled ! He agrees with me!

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Jesus blood is the basis for the new covenant God will make with the whole nation of Israel (the 1/3 of Zech 13) but He has of yet not made the covenant with the whole nation of Israel as He says HE WILL!

If god says He will do something- I will preach with 100% confidence that HE WILL do what He says, as He said it and not how some men millenia removed retranslate the Words.
 
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BABerean2

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Well then show how the new covenant is completely fuflilled.

when Jesus said it was finished- He was not saying the new covenant fulfillment was finished, but the price for sin was paid in full (tetelestai)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Simply show when verse 33 was fiulfilled also verse 34 to the whole nation of Israel.


The author of the Book of Hebrews starts the following passage with the word "now" and quotes word-for-word Jeremiah 31:31-34, and also ends the passage showing the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


You are also ignoring what Paul said below about "Israel".

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,


Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


If you think every descendant of Jacob is going to come to salvation, you need to read your Bible again.


.
 
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nolidad

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Why would God think differently between now and then?

Because He only forbade David. If you want to make that a perpetual ban on anyone who is a warrior, then show it from Scripture and don't just say it is!
 
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BABerean2

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but even gay did not say the new covenant has been fulfilled ! He agrees with me!


Since David is a friend of mine, and I have read his book "Christ is All", you could not be more wrong.
I got an email from David this morning.
He is probably the leading proponent of New Covenant Theology in the world, at the present time.



.
 
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jgr

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Red herring. Why does it matter what someone else believed or believes. We all have the SAME scriptures.

Case in point: what did the leadership of the church believe when Martin Luther nailed his thesis on the door? Did He just come up with "salvation is by faith?" No, Paul taught it. But for hundreds of years, it seems no one else wrote what Martin Luther wrote. Does that mean what he wrote was not truth? Do we define truth by what came before - or can we define truth by the word of God alone?

God has always preserved His Truth, even through the darkest of times.

Salvation by faith never disappeared from His True Church. He appointed Martin Luther as one of the messengers of its revival, as He has appointed such messengers throughout the history of His True Church.

Interpretations of God's Truth differ. We therefore need a reference benchmark against which to test them.

The wisdom, discernment, insight, testimony, faith, and sacrifice of the host of saints of the True Church who have gone before is such a benchmark.

It is a potent antidote against the modernist private interpretations which have afflicted and infected much of the church since the 19th century.
 
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mkgal1

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When was this part fulfilled and when do you understand the book of Revelation to have been written?

"to seal up vision and prophecy"
I believe in the early dating of Revelation (around 65 AD).

As far as the phrase "to seal up vision and prophecy ", I agree with this commentary from John Peter Lange:

The idea is, that everything in the form of prophetic visions and predictions that had been produced in the course of theocratic development from the time of Moses should receive ‘sealing’ i.e. Divine confirmation and recognition, in the form of actual fulfillment .” (John Peter Lange, Commentary on the Holy Scriptures, Ezekiel-Daniel, edited by Phillip Schaff, (Grand Rapids; Zondervan, 1876), 195).
Also Barnes commentary:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Seal - The seal is a very ancient invention. Judah's signet and Pharaoh's signet-ring are mentioned in Genesis Gen 38:18; Genesis 41:42. Signets of Egyptian kings have been found which are referred to about 2000 B.C. Sennacherib's signet, and an impression of Sargon's, are still extant. There can be no doubt that in the East, from a very remote antiquity, kings had seals and appended them to all documents which they set forth under their authority.


Daniel's prophecy informs us of the actual timing of the fulfillment (and with the hindsight of history, we know this to have occurred in 70 AD with the complete destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple system):

Daniel 12:7
When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”
 
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SeventyOne

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I believe in the early dating of Revelation (around 65 AD).

As far as the phrase "to seal up vision and prophecy ", I agree with this commentary from John Peter Lange:

The idea is, that everything in the form of prophetic visions and predictions that had been produced in the course of theocratic development from the time of Moses should receive ‘sealing’ i.e. Divine confirmation and recognition, in the form of actual fulfillment (I Kings 21:8).” (John Peter Lange, Commentary on the Holy Scriptures, Ezekiel-Daniel, edited by Phillip Schaff, (Grand Rapids; Zondervan, 1876), 195).​

Daniel's prophecy informs us of the actual timing (and with the hindsight of history, we know this to have occurred in 70 AD with the complete destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple system):

Daniel 12:7
When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”

Now the claims I've heard from people who say this is all in the past is that the last 7 years of the 70 weeks of years took place at the time of Jesus, and it was his death and resurrection in the middle of those 7 years which caused the sacrifice to cease. But it seems like you are saying the 70 weeks of Daniel completed in 70AD instead, which is a completely new timeline.
 
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mkgal1

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But it seems like you are saying the 70 weeks of Daniel completed in 70AD instead, which is a completely new timeline.
No....the 70th week of Daniel (i believe) ended in 34 AD.

Those 490 years were said to have been for exclusively "Daniel's people and the city". During that time, God continued to send prophets and judges to warn the Israelites to return to Him as their one True God. This was a covenant promise that God would remain with them until 34 AD (and not allow their destruction or their end to come sooner). What happened in 70 AD was the full confirmation that what all the prophets and Jesus said was true of their end....and the of the end of the covenant made on Mt Sinai.

There were 40 years of the Israelites wandering the wilderness after their first exodus. Likewise....God allowed them 40 years in their second exodus (30-70 AD).
 
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SeventyOne

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No....the 70th week of Daniel (i believe) ended in 34 AD.

Those 490 years were said to have been for exclusively "Daniel's people and the city". During that time, God continued to send prophets and judges to warn the Israelites to return to Him as their one True God. This was a covenant promise that God would remain with them until 34 AD (and not allow their destruction or their end to come sooner). What happened in 70 AD was the full confirmation that what all the prophets and Jesus said was true of their end....and the of the end of the covenant made on Mt Sinai.

There were 40 years of the Israelites wandering the wilderness after their first exodus. Likewise....God allowed them 40 years in their second exodus (30-70 AD).

Ok. That doesn't really correspond to the aim of the 70 weeks of sealing visions and prophecies when the visions we refer to as the book of Revelation was still years away from being given. Thanks.
 
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mkgal1

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Ok. That doesn't really correspond to the aim of the 70 weeks of sealing visions and prophecies when the visions we refer to as the book of Revelation was still years away from being given. Thanks.
I'm not convinced that the prophecies sealed were referring to Revelation (we agree Revelation hadn't even been written in 34 AD).

Keep in mind that sealing’ means divine confirmation and recognition, in the form of actual fulfillment. I believe it's what Jesus went over with His disciples on the road to Emmaus (how all those prophecies point to Him)....His Resurrection....His Ascension into heaven....and Pentecost that were sealed....approved ....divinely confirmed.

Luke 24
25Then Jesus said to them, “O foolish ones, how slow are your hearts to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
...."to seal the vision and the prophet" seems to mean God's stamp (seal) of approval of authenticity on Daniel and his prophecy.
 
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mkgal1

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Now show how this has been fully fulfilled to the nation of Israel!
I already have....in what you quoted and responded to.

There is no longer a Mosaic Covenant between God and the Israelites (IOW - there's no "nation of Israel"). Jesus was True Israel that kept the Mosaic Covenant.....and His people were those that followed Him.

Writing to the Church that was in Corinth, Paul said (what seems to support the belief that Jeremiah 31 was fulfilled in the first century through the Judeo/Christian Church):

2 Corinthians 3:6
...who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 
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jgr

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Yes, I probably misunderstood your question. Nonetheless, the idea that the prince who shall come is Jesus either started with Matthew Henry, or was continued with Matthew Henry from others of his time, around 1700.

The idea started with Daniel, and continued thereafter to:

Clement of Alexandria (150 AD - 215 AD) (On Daniel 9:24-27 ; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel)
"From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation."

Clement of Alexandria pre-dates Matthew Henry by about 1500 years.
 
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nolidad

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The author of the Book of Hebrews starts the following passage with the word "now" and quotes word-for-word Jeremiah 31:31-34, and also ends the passage showing the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


You are also ignoring what Paul said below about "Israel".

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,


Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


If you think every descendant of Jacob is going to come to salvation, you need to read your Bible again.


.

Well it appears you have not been a careful reader of my posts.

I never said your last line. I never have thought that nor do I think that! what I do know that in every generation, a remnant of Israel is saved and they are "The Israel of God" Paul wrote about.

but at teh end of teh tribulation period (the 70th week of Daniel), teh entire nation of Israel will get saved, cry out "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord and cause Jesus to return.

Zech. 13:

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Hitler killed 1/3 of all Jews- the "antichrist" will insure 2/3 are killed. Teh remaining 1/3 will receive Christ as Savior.

Wen God says "it shall come to pass", guess what? IT SHALL COME TO PASS!!!!
 
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nolidad

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Since David is a friend of mine, and I have read his book "Christ is All", you could not be more wrong.
I got an email from David this morning.
He is probably the leading proponent of New Covenant Theology in the world, at the present time.

Well in that 11 minute video, He taught biblical truth!

I do not know what is entailed in what He and I assume you call "New covenant Theology".

If it is just a new name for "replacement theology" (the church has replaced Israel and the OT promises have been transferred to the church) Then it is just an old lie with a new name!
 
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jgr

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The point I was making is that things some consider "unmistakenable" may not be unmistakenable to others.

The word is "unmistakable".

Those to whom "unmistakable" may not be "unmistakable" are those who reject the plain English dictionary definition of "unmistakable", which I provided previously; simply because they disagree with it.

Logical discourse with such is impossible.
 
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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
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but at teh end of teh tribulation period (the 70th week of Daniel), teh entire nation of Israel will get saved, cry out "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord and cause Jesus to return
People determine when Jesus comes? Isn't that what this would mean?
 
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