My understanding of Soteriology.

Jesse Dornfeld

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God foretells those who are elect by predestination, He then calls them, then they are justified, and finally glorified.

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Upon the judgement, God "saves" them from condemnation that comes upon Christ's return and creates a new heaven and a new earth.

Revelation 20:11-27-Revelation 21:1-5 (too long to post here)

You might say, "Okay, but HOW does an individual get saved?"

First God must demonstrate Himself to you.

Romans 10:14-17 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Upon hearing the Gospel, one must receive it as the Word of God.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

How this happens is a matter of the spirit.

Romans 8:27 And he [the Son] who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Why this happens is according to the counsel of His will.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will...

And this happens through Faith in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And you know if someone is saved if they bear good fruit.

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

And since we are "In Christ" we join in his sufferings so that God can be glorified.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

So the TL;DR is this:

1. God foresaw whom he would elect.
2. God searches the heart of the elect.
3. God calls those into relation with Him.
4. The person receives faith in the hope of Christ.
5. The person exercises their faith in the form of good works.
6. The person suffers in Christ
7. God glorifies the person's body into a new heavenly body.

Note: baptism could be either directly before or directly after point 4.
 
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Hammster

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God foretells those who are elect through predestination, He calls them, they are justified, and finally glorified.
I’m a little confused on this. Are you saying that He predestines them, and because of that He foretells who are elect?
 
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d taylor

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Nothing from the Gospel of John, the only book of the Bible whose stated purpose for being written, is to tell people how to have Eternal Life.

And nothing about believing in the promised Messiah for Gods free gift of Eternal Life.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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I’m a little confused on this. Are you saying that He predestines them, and because of that He foretells who are elect?

No, that is probably poor wording on my part with me saying "through". It would probably be better to say "there by predestining".
 
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Hammster

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No, that is probably poor wording on my part with me saying "through". It would probably be better to say "there by predestining".
Okay. Can you rephrase it then? I want to make sure I understand you.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Okay. Can you rephrase it then? I want to make sure I understand you.

I've reworded the first lines of the OP to say:
"God foretells those who are elect by predestination, He then calls them, then they are justified, and finally glorified."

Does that clear things up?
 
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Hammster

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I've reworded the first lines of the OP to say:
"God foretells those who are elect by predestination, He then calls them, then they are justified, and finally glorified."

Does that clear things up?
Not really. I’m not sure what you mean, though, that God foretells those who are elect by predestination. How does predestination inform God who the elect are?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Not really. I’m not sure what you mean, though, that God foretells those who are elect by predestination. How does predestination inform God who the elect are?

Why this happens is according to the counsel of His will.

Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will...
 
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Hammster

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That doesn’t answer the question. You said that predestination informs God who the elect are. The verse you posted says we are predestined according to His purpose. So the two views are opposed to each other.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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That doesn’t answer the question. You said that predestination informs God who the elect are. The verse you posted says we are predestined according to His purpose. So the two views are opposed to each other.

No, predestination doesn't "inform" anything, that is why I said "God foretells those who are elect BY predestination" and not "God foretells those who are elect BECAUSE of predestination". The "BY" is WHAT God does, it has no explanatory power in the WHY. For the WHY the only reason it given in the Bible for God predestining those who are elect is because of His Good pleasure and Glory in accordance to His Will.
 
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Hammster

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No, predestination doesn't "inform" anything, that is why I said "God foretells those who are elect BY predestination" and not "God foretells those who are elect BECAUSE of predestination". The "BY" is WHAT God does, it has no explanatory power in the WHY. For the WHY the only reason it given in the Bible for God predestining those who are elect is because of His Good pleasure and Glory in accordance to His Will.
I see. “By” could be understood as “because”. I don’t really think your opening statement is as clear as you think. It happens to me sometimes. I’d suggest making it a bit clearer.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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I see. “By” could be understood as “because”. I don’t really think your opening statement is as clear as you think. It happens to me sometimes. I’d suggest making it a bit clearer.

I'm not sure what to tell you. "By" is clearly a different word than "because"

Definition of by
(Entry 1 of 5)

1: in proximity to : NEARstanding by the window
2a: into the vicinity of and beyond : PASTwent right by him
b: through or through the medium (see MEDIUM entry 1 sense 2) of : VIAenter by the door
c: in the direction of : TOWARDsailed north by east
3a: during the course ofstudied by night
b: not later thanbe there by 2 p.m.
4a: through the agency (see AGENCY sense 3) or instrumentality ofa poem written by Keatsdeath by firing squadtaken by forcehappened by luck
b: born or begot ofhad two sons by his first wifeone child by her second husband
c: sired or borne byhaving foals by champion race horses
5: with the witness or sanction (see SANCTION entry 1 sense 4c) ofswear by all that is holy
6a: in conformity withacted by the rules
b: ACCORDING TOcalled her by namesold by the pound
7—used as a function word in multiplication, in division, and in measurementsdivide a by bmultiply 10 by 4a room 15 feet by 20 feet
8a: with respect toa lawyer by profession
b: on behalf ofdid right by his children
9: in or to the amount or extent ofwin by a nose
bchiefly Scotland : in comparison with : BESIDE
10—used as a function word to indicate successive units or incrementslittle by littlewalk two by two
11: in the opinion of : from the point of view ofOK by me

Definition of because

1: for the reason that : SINCErested because he was tired
2: the fact that : THATthe reason I haven't been fired is because my boss hasn't got round to it yet— E. B. White
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Can you expound on this?

Ephesians 1:4 He chose us in the Messiah before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before Him in love.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
 
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Hammster

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Ephesians 1:4 He chose us in the Messiah before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before Him in love.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
An actual answer would help here as I don’t know what your understanding of those verses are.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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An actual answer would help here as I don’t know what your understanding of those verses are.

Sure, what don't you understand about my perspective?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Never mind. You just want to play games.

NOPE! You want to play games because you automatically assume your presuppositions are the correct ones.

I'm getting really tired of you about now.
 
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5thKingdom

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1. God foresaw whom he would elect.


Simple question:
Does God "elect" people based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT based on anything (good or evil) that person would do?
(in other words, a monergistic Gospel - the narrow way to eternal life)


Or, does God "elect" people based on knowing they would do
something... like saying the sinner's prayer or making an altar call
or receiving water baptism or repenting of some sins or "inviting"
Jesus into their hearts or DECIDING (a work) to "believe" in Christ?
(which is a synergistic gospel - the BROAD WAY to destruction)


Jim
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Simple question:
Does God "elect" people based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT based on anything (good or evil) that person would do?
(in other words, a monergistic Gospel - the narrow way to eternal life)


Or, does God "elect" people based on knowing they would do
something... like saying the sinner's prayer or making an altar call
or receiving water baptism or repenting of some sins or "inviting"
Jesus into their hearts or DECIDING (a work) to "believe" in Christ?
(which is a synergistic gospel - the BROAD WAY to destruction)


Jim

Great question...

Philosophically speaking, I think it makes more sense from a molinist PoV which is which you listed in the second way, that being God has "middle knowledge" of what anyone "would do" if in any given situation. I would say, however though, that theologically, this PoV is a bit untenable if we have a view of the body, soul, and spirit as "contents" of God's creation. If, from the theological position that what we ARE is contents that God has created, then it makes little sense to adopt a point view where God is not ultimately in control of and Sovereign over those contents.

From a strictly Biblical view, however, I would say in some sense this paints a bit different picture. From the point of an exegetical view of the whole Bible and God's redemptive plan, it seems to be the case that God in His Sovereignty wants to make us heirs of His Grace that He has given His Son. One can even argue that we are "FELLOW heirs with Christ" because of the way Christ's atoning death functions whereby God only sees the righteousness of His Son in Christ and that our sins are "paid for". And with God granting us the righteousness of His son, the the conclusion we would come to is that in our glorification we reign with Christ. However, IMHO, we have to take the Biblical text at face value to do proper exegesis. So when Jesus says things like, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me," not to mention Daniel 7 and that the Son of Man (Jesus) will be sitting at the right hand of God, that it can only logically be concluded another way.

In my humble understanding of these things, I think the main thrust of salvation is that it is a gift that would not make sense under any condition to turn it down. If we are resurrected with Christ then really, the only "choice" we have in the matter is how much we should show our gratitude towards Him who saved us when we were dead.
 
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