Once saved always saved. False?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Really? Then how were people saved before the cross?
A problem with this discussion may be that these two statements do not mean the same thing:

1. How may people who lived before the cross were saved?

versus

2. How many people were saved before the cross?
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
FreeGrace2 said:
Since it was prophesied in the OT proves that it was revealed in the OT. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been prophesied in the OT.
Was the church prophesied in the Old Testament do you say?
It seems you must think I believe that everything in the NT was prophesied in the OT. But I never said any such thing.

The answer to your question is no, of course not. The Church was a mystery to the OT. No prophet could see it. All they could see was the Messiah being "cut off" or crucified, and then coming in power for the Millennium.
 
Upvote 0

George Antonios

Active Member
Aug 25, 2020
133
60
41
Quebec
✟15,255.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
FreeGrace2 said:
Since it was prophesied in the OT proves that it was revealed in the OT. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been prophesied in the OT.

It seems you must think I believe that everything in the NT was prophesied in the OT. But I never said any such thing.

The answer to your question is no, of course not. The Church was a mystery to the OT. No prophet could see it. All they could see was the Messiah being "cut off" or crucified, and then coming in power for the Millennium.
Fine, let's pivot to what you concede: "they could see was the Messiah being "cut off" or crucified" but Peter tells you they didn't understand that.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Fine, let's pivot to what you concede: "they could see was the Messiah being "cut off" or crucified" but Peter tells you they didn't understand that.
They weren't the brightest bulbs. But others did understand that.

Luke 2-
28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.”

36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,
37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.
38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.
 
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The answer to your question is no, of course not. The Church was a mystery to the OT. No prophet could see it.


Of course the church was prophesied in the OT...
just because that information was "sealed" to OT Saints does not
mean it was not written.

Likewise, the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
was prophesied in the OT... but the information was "sealed" to
saints in the OT era and NT era... and even the "ten virgins" of
the Great Tribulation era. The truth was not revealed until AFTER
Satan's "Little Season" was finished.


.
 
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Fine, let's pivot to what you concede: "they could see was the Messiah being "cut off" or crucified" but Peter tells you they didn't understand that.


Exactly, there were MANY prophecies about the Christian Kingdom
that remained "sealed" in the Jewish Kingdom.


Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I,
O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And
he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up
and sealed till the time of the end.


Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.



.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Of course the church was prophesied in the OT...
just because that information was "sealed" to OT Saints does not
mean it was not written.
Please quote where the Church was written about in the OT.
 
Upvote 0

George Antonios

Active Member
Aug 25, 2020
133
60
41
Quebec
✟15,255.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
They weren't the brightest bulbs. But others did understand that.

Luke 2-
28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29“Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss your servant in peace.
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel.”

36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,
37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.
38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.

Where do you see Simeon and Anna understanding and looking forward to that child dying an atoning sacrificial death for them in the text?
They looked for the Messiah, sure. All did. Looking for him to die in their stead is an entirely different ball game.
 
Upvote 0

George Antonios

Active Member
Aug 25, 2020
133
60
41
Quebec
✟15,255.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exactly, there were MANY prophecies about the Christian Kingdom
that remained "sealed" in the Jewish Kingdom.


Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I,
O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And
he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up
and sealed till the time of the end.


Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.



.

Confusion here.
A) that passage is about the tribulation
B) the prophets were not "wicked"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Where do you see Simeon and Anna understanding and looking forward to that child dying an atoning sacrificial death for them in the text?
They looked for the Messiah, sure. All did. Looking for him to die in their stead is an entirely different ball game.
I've already pointed out what Caiaphas the High Priest said about Jesus. He was mocking what Jesus was claiming.

And I've pointed out what Paul preached, which came from the "Scriptures", that being the OT.

Please explain how a person went to heaven before the cross.
 
Upvote 0

George Antonios

Active Member
Aug 25, 2020
133
60
41
Quebec
✟15,255.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I've already pointed out what Caiaphas the High Priest said about Jesus. He was mocking what Jesus was claiming.

And I've pointed out what Paul preached, which came from the "Scriptures", that being the OT.

Please explain how a person went to heaven before the cross.

Paul was revealing things that he himself told us were previously a mystery until he revealed them:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

I didn't get your point about Caiaphas.

As for before the cross, Moses, Christ, and Paul, all told us how:

Moses:
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Quoted by Paul:
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

And Paul is careful to add:
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: BUT, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

And here's the Lord:
Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Salvation by grace through faith without the works of the law is a New Testament doctrine only valid during the church age, which is why Paul says:
Rom_3:21 But NOW the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
There it is again: he says it was witnessed in the O.T. but it wasn't yet the case back then.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Confusion here.
A) that passage is about the tribulation
B) the prophets were not "wicked"


You are correct, the passage is about the Great Tribulation
which was experienced EXCLUSIVELY by "ten virgins". Which
are called by many other names elsewhere in the Bible.


These LAST "wheat and tares" are those who "went forth" from
the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13] as they followed the
Antichrist in the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


Mat 25:1
Then [during the Great Tribulation] shall the Kingdom of Heaven
be likened unto [look like] TEN VIRGINS, which took their lamps,
[their Gospels] and went forth [from the Christian Kingdom] to
meet the bridegroom [Jesus]. 2 And five of them were wise,
[saved wheat] and five were foolish [unsaved tares].


ONLY the wise virgins "shall understand" the mysteries "sealed"
in Daniel 12 until the "time-of-the-end" which is also called [Dan 7]
the "Season and Time". The foolish virgins were unsaved (wicked) and they shall NOT understand - as was promised in Daniel 12:8-10.


Notice Mat 25:1-13 is talking about the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] and the wise virgins are
taken "into the marriage and the DOOR IS SHUT" [v 10]
Then the foolish virgins (wicked unsaved tares) complain they
were not included in the Final Harvest and the Lord tells them
that He never knew them [Mat 25:11-13]


The thing most people do not understand is the "ten virgins"
of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" are also shown
as the ten "horns/kings" (which are called "the saints") which
are RULED by the Antichrist in Daniel 7:24-25.


These same people (ten "virgins" and ten "horns/kings" are also
shown in Rev 17:12-13 that "give their power and strength to the
[Revelation] Beast" and shown (again) as ten "horns/kings" that
"agree to give their KINGDOM to the [Revelation] Beast"
[Rev 17:17]


There are over TWO DOZEN passages in the Bible that talk about
these same ten "virgins/horns/kings" that were RULED by Satan
and his Antichrist during the Great Tribulation Kingdom... and they
are called by MANY different names.


But here is the BIGGER PICTURE that only the "wise virgins"
understand and preach:


The Great Tribulation could not BEGIN until after the "testimony" of
the church (two candlesticks/two olive trees represent the church)
is "finished" [Rev 11:7] and the LAST SAINT is "sealed/saved"
[Rev 7:1-3] the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" [2Th 2:6-9]
and Satan is "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2] so he
can RULE the ten "virgins/horns/kings" during His "Little Season"
[Rev 20:3]. Obviously Satan and his Antichrist could not RULE over
the Last Saints until the Holy Spirit was "taken out of the way", and
THEN would the Man-of-Sin/False Prophet/Antichrist be "revealed",
to the "wise virgins"... but NOT the "foolish virgins" or those who
were left-behind in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" where the
"saints lived and ruled with Christ" throughout the Church Age.


Jim
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I've already pointed out what Caiaphas the High Priest said about Jesus. He was mocking what Jesus was claiming.

And I've pointed out what Paul preached, which came from the "Scriptures", that being the OT.

Please explain how a person went to heaven before the cross.
Paul was revealing things that he himself told us were previously a mystery until he revealed them:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Isa 53 isn't a mystery. Even the Ethiopian eunuch understood that there was a death.

I didn't get your point about Caiaphas.
John 11:49 - Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

As High Priest, he certainly understood the OT Scriptures and was most likely mocking Jesus' claim to be the Messiah.

As for before the cross, Moses, Christ, and Paul, all told us how:

Moses:
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

Quoted by Paul:
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

And Paul is careful to add:
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: BUT, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Aren't you aware that none of these verses say how to be saved??

And here's the Lord:
Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Discerning scholars realize that Jesus wasn't telling him how to be saved, but what his real problem was. The man thought he was keeping the whole law, and Jesus pointed out his error.

Salvation by grace through faith without the works of the law is a New Testament doctrine only valid during the church age, which is why Paul says:
Rom_3:21 But NOW the righteousness of God WITHOUT the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
There it is again: he says it was witnessed in the O.T. but it wasn't yet the case back then.
You need to read Romans 2 - 4.

Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

2 Tim 3:15 - and how from childhood you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

These verses refute your claim.
 
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Please quote where the Church was written about in the OT.


(1) Act 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


I warned you several times to NOT ASSUME that Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand... it is not.


(2) Dan 2:33
His legs of iron [the church age],
his feet part of iron and part of clay.[the Great Tribulation age]


Notice the images head was of gold [representing the pre-fall age]
the chest was of silver [representing the post-fall kingdom before
the flood]
the belly was of brass [representing the Jewish Kingdom]
the legs were of iron [representing the Christian Kingdom] and the
feet were of iron and clay [the wise and foolish virgins of the GT]
Daniel 2:32-33


Notice Daniel 2:44 shows the Lord Returns during the days of the
ten "Toes/Kings" represented by ten toes of Iron (wise virgins)
and clay (foolish virgins)


Dan 2:44 And in the days of these [ten] kings shall the God
of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.



(3) Dan 7:6
After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, [the church age] which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. [during the church age]


Notice, Daniel 7:4-7


Daniel's (1st) Beast/Kingdom was like a LION... representing the
(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom. This Kingdom is AGAIN shown as a LION
in Rev 13:2... WOW, an OT prophecy about the Pre-Flood Kingdom
is shown in the NT


And Daniel's (2nd) Beast/Kingdom is like a BEAR... representing the
(2nd) Jewish Kingdom. This Kingdom is AGAIN shown as a BEAR
n Rev 13:2... WOW, an OT prophecy about the Jewish Kingdom
is shown in the NT.


Daniel's (3rd) Beast/Kingdom was like a LEOPARD... representing the
(3rd) Christian Kingdom. The Kingdom is again shown as a LEOPARD
in Rev 13:2... WOW, an OT prophecy about the Christian Kingdom
is shown in the NT.


I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.



(4) Dan 9

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


The first part of the one week of covenant is the Church Age.
The second part of the week is the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.



(5) Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
As it is written in 2Sam 22:50 and Psalm 18:49


(6) Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
As it is written in Deuteronomy 32:43


(7) Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
As it is written in Psalm 117:1


(8) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
As it is written in Isaiah 11:10



(9) Rom 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
As it is written in Isaiah 52:15

.

(10) Isaiah 42:1 says the Messiah will bring "justice to the nations"
[the Gentiles]


(11) Isaiah 42:6 says the Messiah will be a "light to the nations"
[the Gentiles]


(12) Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
FreeGrace2 said:
Please quote where the Church was written about in the OT.
(1) Act 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Though he was prophesying about end times, he had no idea about the church age and Gentile involvement. You are only kidding yourself.

Quite pretending there are 5 kingdoms of heaven. You've not proven your case. All you have is your opinions and presumption.

You can't even discern what "Christian" means. In your fantasies, there are unsaved Christians.

You have no credibility.
 
Upvote 0

BrotherJJ

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2019
1,120
424
North America
✟166,313.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
(NOTE: David say's for thou (LORD) hast magnified thy word above all thy name)

Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
(NOTE: God word is pure & a shield unto them that put their trust in him.)

Jude 1: Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
(NOTE: Sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED by Jesus Christ)

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(NOTE: Peter say's believers are KEPT/preserved by God thru faith)

Jn 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Deut 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rom 8:
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Tim 3:16 (A) All scripture is given by inspiration of God

FAITH

Heb 12:2 (A) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.
(NOTE: Christ is the author/beginning & finisher/end of all faith)

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from "faith to faith": as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(NOTE: From Faith to Faith. That's our Faith placed in Him & His faithful & obedient sacrificial works)

Acts 26:
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
(NOTE: Jesus is speaking here & vs 18)

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(NOTE: A risen Jesus sends Paul to Gentiles, that were never under the Law of Moses. Jesus say's gentiles are forgiven & sanctified/set apart by Faith that is in HIM)

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by "faith of Jesus Christ" unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(NOTE: The Faith """OF'''" Christ. Also see Gal 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Phil 3:9 for additional scripture on the faith """OF""" Christ)

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but "the just shall live by his faith".
(NOTE: The just live by "HIS" faith!)

Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(NOTE: Jesus gave is life to obedience)

Rom 5:19 (B) so "by the obedience of one" shall many be made righteous.
(NOTE: It's "By The Obedience Of One" = Jesus: Whereby many will be made righteous)

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but "that which is through the "faith of Christ", the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(NOTE: Not by our own righteousness obtained thru law keeping. BUT thru the faith "OF" Christ)

The victory over sin & death is won by: Christ's faithful & obedient works & resurrection & our faith placed if Jesus sin atoning work. Found in His death (sins required wage PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

Acts 10: Gentiles receive the eternal salvation sealing (2 Cor 1:22, 2 Tim 1:14, 2 Cor 5:5, Eph 4:30) baptism of Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit:

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word.
(NOTE: They BELIEVED (vs43) & as Peter spoke (vs44) The Holy Spirit fell on them (vs45). NO REPENTANCE of any kind here, No water baptism, No circumcision, they brought no sin sacrifice to the Temple, No law keeping etc. Thru FAITH & faith alone, they received the eternal salvation sealing baptism of Christ's indwelling Holy Spirit)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Though he was prophesying about end times, he had no idea
about the church age and Gentile involvement.


You asked for examples of Old Testament prophecies
of the New Testament Church Age... I gave you twelve (12).
Now you say the OT prophets had to understand the church
age.... notice they mention the GENTILES in the Kingdom.
Your efforts to save face are hilarious.


(1) Act 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


I warned you several times to NOT ASSUME that Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand... it is not.



(2) Dan 2:33
His legs of iron [the church age],
his feet part of iron and part of clay.[the Great Tribulation age]


Notice the images head was of gold [representing the pre-fall age]
the chest was of silver [representing the post-fall kingdom before
the flood] the belly was of brass [representing the Jewish Kingdom]
the legs were of iron [representing the Christian Kingdom] and the
feet were of iron and clay [the wise and foolish virgins of the GT]
Daniel 2:32-33


Notice Daniel 2:44 shows the Lord Returns during the days of the
ten "Toes/Kings" represented by ten toes of Iron (wise virgins)
and clay (foolish virgins)


Dan 2:44 And in the days of these [ten] kings shall the God
of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.



(3) Dan 7:6
After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, [the church age] which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. [during the church age]


Notice, Daniel 7:4-7


Daniel's (1st) Beast/Kingdom was like a LION... representing the
(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom. This Kingdom is AGAIN shown as a LION
in Rev 13:2... WOW, an OT prophecy about the Pre-Flood Kingdom
is shown in the NT


And Daniel's (2nd) Beast/Kingdom is like a BEAR... representing the
(2nd) Jewish Kingdom. This Kingdom is AGAIN shown as a BEAR
n Rev 13:2... WOW, an OT prophecy about the Jewish Kingdom
is shown in the NT.


Daniel's (3rd) Beast/Kingdom was like a LEOPARD... representing the
(3rd) Christian Kingdom. The Kingdom is again shown as a LEOPARD
in Rev 13:2... WOW, an OT prophecy about the Christian Kingdom
is shown in the NT.


I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.



(4) Dan 9

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


The first part of the one week of covenant is the Church Age.
The second part of the week is the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.



(5) Rom 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
As it is written in 2Sam 22:50 and Psalm 18:49


(6) Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
As it is written in Deuteronomy 32:43


(7) Rom 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
As it is written in Psalm 117:1


(8) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
As it is written in Isaiah 11:10



(9) Rom 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
As it is written in Isaiah 52:15

.

(10) Isaiah 42:1 says the Messiah will bring "justice to the nations"
[the Gentiles]


(11) Isaiah 42:6 says the Messiah will be a "light to the nations"
[the Gentiles]


(12) Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.



You can't even discern what "Christian" means. In your fantasies, there are unsaved Christians. You have no credibility.



No... it is JESUS that said the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
contained saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal
life and unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the same
FIRE prepared for Satan.


If you want to say that JESUS did not understand there were
both saved and unsaved Christians... then your argument is
with JESUS (not with me)


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man
which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy
came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But
when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared
the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said
unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence
then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.
The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather
them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares,
ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together
until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn
.



Notice also:
Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 25:11-13 (after the Door was Shut)
Luke 13:23-30 (also after the Door was Shut)


2Co 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan
himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great
thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of
righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works
.



Mat 24:23-25
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there;
believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.


You are so funny...

A major PART of the New Testament Gospel is unsaved "tares"
would infiltrate the church and the "leaven" of their false doctrines
would corrupt the churches and eventually the entire Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven".

And yet, you pretend there are no unsaved Christians.
That is just hilarious.

.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I said:
"Though he was prophesying about end times, he had no idea
about the church age and Gentile involvement."
You asked for examples of Old Testament prophecies
of the New Testament Church Age... I gave you twelve (12).
Referring to future people does not equate to NAMING the "Church age". Quit fooling yourself.

Now you say the OT prophets had to understand the church
age....
How about actually reading what I posted. I said, referring to OT prophets, "he had NO IDEA about the church age and Gentile involvement". Isn't that clear enough?

notice they mention the GENTILES in the Kingdom.
Your efforts to save face are hilarious.
Your comments are hilarious. When Peter evangelized the Roman Centurian and his family and close friends, this is how how the Jewish believers responded:

Acts 11-
17So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

They were surprised. They had no idea. Even though the OT prophets mentioned Gentiles, it didn't sink in. And there was NO MENTION about a "Church Age" where the Christian church would be primarily Gentiles.

In fact, none of them even knew about the "Christian church".

(1) Act 2:16
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out
of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men
shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
This prophesy doesn't mention the Church age. No one would have read this and understood that there would be a "Christian church". Please stop kidding yourself.

I warned you several times to NOT ASSUME that Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand... it is not.
Your "warnings" are rather childish. It would be good for you to realize that and cease. It doesn't help your credibility, which is already at a real low.

(2) Dan 2:33
His legs of iron [the church age],
his feet part of iron and part of clay.[the Great Tribulation age]
Except we don't find YOUR OPINION in brackets in the text.

Notice the images head was of gold [representing the pre-fall age]
the chest was of silver [representing the post-fall kingdom before
the flood] the belly was of brass [representing the Jewish Kingdom]
the legs were of iron [representing the Christian Kingdom] and the
feet were of iron and clay [the wise and foolish virgins of the GT]
Daniel 2:32-33
And again, we don't find YOUR OPINION in brackets in the text.

Notice Daniel 2:44 shows the Lord Returns during the days of the
ten "Toes/Kings" represented by ten toes of Iron (wise virgins)
and clay (foolish virgins)
Again, what I notice is YOUR OPINION overlaid on the text.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these [ten] kings shall the God
of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:
and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
And what do you NAME this kingdom? Never mind. The kingdom that God sets up that "shall never be destroyed" can ONLY be the reign of Jesus Christ, beginning with the Millennium and then lasting forever.

I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.
Very childish.

I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.
Very childish.

I have warned you several times to NOT PRETEND that
Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what YOU can understand...
both the Christian Kingdom AND Great Tribulation Kingdom
were prophesied by Daniel.
Very childish.

And yet, you pretend there are no unsaved Christians.
That is just hilarious.
.
It's actually quite sad that anyone who claims to be a student of Scripture would even think that there are "unsaved Christians".

This only proves that you have no idea what the definition of a Christian is.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

5thKingdom

Newbie
Mar 23, 2015
3,698
219
✟35,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I said:
"Though he was prophesying about end times, he had no idea
about the church age and Gentile involvement." Referring to future people does not equate to NAMING the "Church age". .


Sorry buddy... referring to GENTILES being included in the
"Kingdom of God" is most definitely a prophecy of the
New Testament Kingdom (whether the writer understood
the fulfillment or not).


BECAUSE that prophecy was NEVER fulfilled during the OT...
it was ONLY fulfilled in the NT.


The QUESTION was whether the church age (Jews and Gentiles)
was prophesied in the OT... I gave you MANY examples of where
it was prophesied in the OT.


NOW you want to "move the goalposts" (in order to save face)
and PRETEND the question was whether the writer of the prophecy
UNDERSTOOD the fulfillment.


That is YOUR STRAWMAN... nothing more.


I have warned you several times to NOT ASSUME Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand. This is just (another) example
of how your limited understanding does NOT define Biblical Truth.


Jim
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.