Any scriptural evidence that evangelized Gentiles are to keep the Sabbath?

LoveGodsWord said:

And this is where your argument falls to pieces. How is Exodus 20:2 alone in your view listed as a commandment when it is clearly not a commandment ? - Exodus 20:2 alone is clearly not a commandment so why have you listed it as one of God's 10 commandments?

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You are lying blatantly. I never said that Ex 20:2 is a commandment, I stated explicitly that it is no commandment, for this is one of my arguments.

• Ex 20:2 is the first "word".
• Ex 20:12 is no commandment.
• Therefore it is a translation error to translate dabar as "commandment" when the ten words are referred to.

All three points above I have already said, several times. You answered top postings where I said so, so yow know that the position you refute is not my position.

LoveGodsWord said:

BTW there are no numbered verses or chapters in any of the Hebrew or Greek scrolls.

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You probably learned that from me, I have said so in post #482.

LoveGodsWord said:

These were added in by the translators.

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Here you got wrong, the chapters in the OT are from the Hebrew, they were invented by Jews. In the NT, the divison into verses was first done in a Greek (i.e.non translated) edition by Robert Etienne (aka Stephanus), in the 16th century. You were only right in the things I have already said ...

LoveGodsWord said:

Therefore my argument is about content not numbers.

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It is about the numbers "1." to "10." you add to the text. In post 483, I posted the text without any number, in post 492, you "took liberty" to add those numbers top the text. In post #521 I did the same, only adding the numbers at different places. You answered to post #d28, so I'm pretty sure you read these postings, and I don't think that you are an idiot that does not understand what numbers I speak about.

Diverting from your numbers "1." to "10." to verse numbers shows your dishonesty again.

Are Gentiles to keep the Shabbat? Not in its entirety. But scriptures are rife with the fact that Gentiles are to observe the same days G-d himself considers holy, when he made the heavenly bodies for "signs and seasons." But to keep all the prohibitions as a Jew, no. In fact, it is actually encouraged for a Gentile to do at least one thing prohibited to Jews on the Shabbat such as lighting a match or carrying across a domain. This is to remind the Gentile that they have not yet been granted the disposition from Heaven to become a Jew yet (either through their free will choice, or limited by circumstances) and thus have much more to work on before they can receive the Shabbat as their own as a Jew.

klutedavid said:

You omitted the law against adultery.

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He just copied and pasted from me, it was my editing error. I thought I had simply changed the numbering, but somehow the content was changed. I did not notice it (I mended the error only just a moment ago), he did not notice it ... you were the first to see it.

Thanks for pointing to it - but be so kind and first assume an error rather than a deliberate change (in future).

klutedavid said:

A Gentile convert was restricted to the court of the Gentiles.

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No. The court of Gentiles was open for everyone. But at the entrances to the next court ("of women"), there were inscriptions warning that any non-Jew transgressing the border was responsible for his own execution.

A Gentile convert (Proselyte) could enter into the court of women and (if male) into the court of men.

klutedavid said:

Gentiles cannot ever become a Levite priest. Gentiles are never considered to be under the law of Moses. God gave the law to Israel and to no other nation.

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Never heard the term "Levite priest" before. A Levite is a descendant from Levi, no member of another tribe could become Levite, it is a status given by birth, and birth alone. A Gentile not allowed to become a Levite is just a logical consequence from that.

Priests were a special branch from the Levites, originally descendants from Aaron. Later there have been other priests (see 2.Sam 8:18) - I suppose heDerekh can tell more about. that, I'm not sure whether there were any non-Levite priests in the time of Jesus. (BTW: The "High priest Sceva" mentioned in Acts 19:14 never existed, he was probably invented by his "sons").

klutedavid said:

The laws that God wrote on the tablets was immensely expanded by Jesus.

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I don't think that "enlarge" is the right term. The Rabbis always tried to "fence the Torah" by declaring any doubtful case as forbidden. The most famous (and regularly cited) example is the was the commandment "You shall not cook a little goat in the milk of its mother" (Ex 34:2), which lead into the complete separation of "milky" and "fleshy" food ...

The "fence" Jesus draw around the Torah is of a somewhat different sort (not formalistic), but it is the same principle.

pasifika said:

Yes, the Torah existed before Moses, But it was Not given until Sinai...( Given to Israel through the covenant in Sinai)

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It was given in a written form as that covenant then...it was orally transmitted prior...even to Adam

eleos1954 said:

Matthew 19:3-9

” They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

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So what can we learn from that?

There is no regulation of divorce except the statement that if a man sends his wife away, he should giver her a document. Which was probably intended as a proof she did not lose her virginity by fornication.

So divorce was permitted, as Jesus pointed to, as something rather outside the law.

In theory, Christians with a new heart from God, filled with the Holy Spirit, will never separate. But in practice there are cases of "hard hearts" that may seem it the best thing to divorce, rather than ruin the lives of the married ones - and their children, who would be better with a divorced parent than with two parents that hate each other.

LoveGodsWord said:

law (10 commandments

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You always equate these two, but there is no instance in the NT where the Law is restricted to the 10 commandments.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

It was given in a written form as that covenant then...it was orally transmitted prior...even to Adam

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Israel said “I DO” even prior receiving the contract

10 words were initially given orally by Him at Sinai...the people hearing the living oracles were too fearful to hear the rest...asked for Moses to finish...and with a written copy...

Growing tired of waiting...they made a golden calf prior receiving the stone tablets...thinking as many do here...to improve their worship of Him with clever alterations to His Word which they come up with...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

It was given in a written form as that covenant then...it was orally transmitted prior...even to Adam

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This is teaching of men. Jewish men, I suppose.

helmut said:

This is teaching of men. Jewish men, I suppose.

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you suppose much is true...and give them far too much credit...following their fables

as if He is an Author of confusion after all...with various and contrarian laws to differing people and at altering time frames...

pasifika said:

The Torah (Law) was added to scriptures at the time of Moses Galatians 3:17...

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Yes because prior Sinai His people were allowed to:

Worship other gods
Make images and worship them
Blaspheme his name take it for naught
Rest every day any day
Dishonor parents
Kill
Commit adultery
Steal
Lie
Covet

certainly not...faith does not make void His Ways

klutedavid said:

Jesus already spoke about adultery and gave His commandment. Then later Jesus spoke about the subject of divorce. Two separate commandments.

Matthew 5:27-28
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’, but I say to you that, everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:31-32
It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery.

Two very separate subjects that Jesus discussed.

While your at it; the commandment below is not listed in the ten words.

Matthew 5:33-34
Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ But I say to you, make no vow at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God...

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to make a vow you state names...do NOT take His name in vain...

klutedavid said:

I never said it was abolished. The law is not applicable to Gentiles. Gentiles were never under the law. Jesus fulfilled the ten commandments just like Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

That's the way it is, whether you can accept the facts or not.

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If gentiles were never under the Law why do they even need saving?

Just because you are under His umbrella (Grace) does not mean it stopped raining...on WHOSOEVER...all of them

klutedavid said:

Jesus said that what Moses wrote was no longer valid. Moses permitted divorce but Jesus commanded that divorce is not permitted, except for immorality.

Not the ten commandments, not Moses, it is all about the commandments that Jesus gave us.

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He actually upheld NO DIVORCE as marriage is a model of what He has with His people His Bride...who He only put away even though she committed adultery...until she killed Him...

as when He came for her demonstrating and teaching His marital contract to which she had said “I DO!” she then rejected Him...killed Him...Yet wishes to retain the Promise married to another...

He resurrected now...seeks another bride desiring to say “I DO!” to the SAME contract...

His taste in woman...faithful and obedient to His ways...has NOT changed

helmut said:

He just copied and pasted from me, it was my editing error. I thought I had simply changed the numbering, but somehow the content was changed. I did not notice it (I mended the error only just a moment ago), he did not notice it ... you were the first to see it.

Thanks for pointing to it - but be so kind and first assume an error rather than a deliberate change (in future).

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Good fair play that is...

HalleluYah

helmut said:

You are lying blatantly. I never said that Ex 20:2 is a commandment, I stated explicitly that it is no commandment, for this is one of my arguments.

• Ex 20:2 is the first "word".
• Ex 20:12 is no commandment.
• Therefore it is a translation error to translate dabar as "commandment" when the ten words are referred to.

All three points above I have already said, several times. You answered top postings where I said so, so yow know that the position you refute is not my position.


You probably learned that from me, I have said so in post #482.


Here you got wrong, the chapters in the OT are from the Hebrew, they were invented by Jews. In the NT, the divison into verses was first done in a Greek (i.e.non translated) edition by Robert Etienne (aka Stephanus), in the 16th century. You were only right in the things I have already said ...


It is about the numbers "1." to "10." you add to the text. In post 483, I posted the text without any number, in post 492, you "took liberty" to add those numbers top the text. In post #521 I did the same, only adding the numbers at different places. You answered to post #d28, so I'm pretty sure you read these postings, and I don't think that you are an idiot that does not understand what numbers I speak about.

Diverting from your numbers "1." to "10." to verse numbers shows your dishonesty again.

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Actually no! Sharing God's Word with you dear friend is not lying. Thank you for your view though. For me I prefer the bibles and it is God's Word not mine that defines those who are telling the truth or not...

1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29 over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *Matthew 15:3-9.

helmut said:

You always equate these two, but there is no instance in the NT where the Law is restricted to the 10 commandments.

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Strawman again? Where did I ever say to you that the law is restricted in the NT to the ten commandments? If I have never said such things why pretend that I have?

helmut said:

10 commandments.

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The rest of the post you are quoting me from says Jesus did not fulfill the law so we are now free to break it. God's law (10 commandments) according to the scriptures testifies and gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken and what righteousness is when obeyed *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. The Mosiac "shadow laws" for remission of sin point to JESUS who is our sacrifice for sin *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:19-28; Hebrews 9:25-28; Hebrews 10:1-14. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word do not enter into God's kingdom unless they repent and return to God because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-31. Now what is it that is posted here you do not believe? (scripture please)

helmut said:

I doubt that YHWH points to any place-meaning.

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well that is NOT do to lack of effort on His part...It is quite clear for me that ALL this is where He is...is why He wants us MORE LIKE Him...and less like...well...NOT HIM...but Holy doing His Way...His Will...

as soon this experiment to see if indeed He is worthy will be ended conclusively in the affirmative...but yes affirmed by a minority...His people...by their fruits...MORE LIKE HIS

"To be" has different meanings, there are languages that uses three different verbs depending on what meaning is used:

1 Existence, as in "God is" or "The hause is at that place", usually the same verb as in the "my car is" construction, which is "I have a car" in plain English,

2 Status or quality, as in "The book is red",

3 Identity, as in "This is the man I saw yesterday".

Hebrew dos not make such distinctions, but the form YHWH seems to be related to the future form of the verb "to be", at least one Bible edition in my bookshelf tells so, and this is explained as "I'll care for you / I'm on your side" or "I will be as I have promised". This does not sound as anything related to place, and other explanation do neither - as the oldest one, the being in the LXX, which is cited in Revelation ("The one who is" in English), and then somewhat corrected, lest one reads the philosopher's God into it, who is unchanging to the point of lifelessness.

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oh ok...so will you now with your “I DO” finally accept and allow His “to be”?

The rest of God was created at the creation (it is not said that God was located in Eden when He did so), Heb 4:3-4, but the commandment to hold this day was first revealed in Ex 16, and explicitly declared in the Decalogue.

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What you miss or reject is that the 10 are NOT laws but DESCRIPTIONS of:

Him His character...

and WHERE HE IS...His kingdom

and the STANDARD of His LOVE...the lifestyle in that kingdom

easily demonstrated as this:

He does NOT LIE...

where He is there is NO LYING only Truth...

His LOVE does NOT lie...thus relationships with any living where “I AM” are His PEOPLE and do NOT LIE as they are made in His image

and REMADE yet again into those that do NOT LIE but live ONLY TRUTH...which is His

And those that love JUST AS He does ALSO DO NOT LIE...



See? Love AS He does and you fulfill the Law...as He did...

And His love included rest after six days of work...

So the fourth commandment is a law to Israel as the other commandments.

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again specifically the fourth reaches back to creation as to WHY they are to rest the seventh day...and it specifically and uniquely INCLUDES those not of Jacob...

I do not want to debunk the trinity (which would mean to debunk Scripture, since the trinity "theory" is a combination and systematization of many Biblical statements), and I don't think my explanation cam be used to that.

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ok let’s shelve this “theory” for later...

I only mean to say that “created IN HIS IMAGE” is inclusive of behavior character lifestyle...and is beyond images as that of looks or one or two male and female...

This is no theme in the "first creation report", which shows the origin of heaven and earth - li0terally, there is a word usually used for a genealogy of heaven and earth (Gen 2:4a - this is a "colophon", a summary at the end which had a similar function to a title in our culture). The "second creation report", which gives details about the creation of man (it is obviously a part of the "book of the origin of man", see the colophon at 5:1, which also introduces a genealogy), shows how Eve was created out of Adam, but this is not the focus of Gen 1:26-27.

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yes ok...but the primary teaching of created IN HIS IMAGE is that we are to live and act as He does...affirmed again by His life and teaching while HERE and incarnate FOR US...in order that “where I AM there ye may be also”...a Holy place of course where His Ways are followed His will is done...

No mention of His day He made Holy having been made UNholy...as He had cursed everything else He made...

If you mean the sabbatical rest created by God: This was prior to the fall.

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as a FACTORY INSTALLED DEFAULT SETTING which had there been no sin WE WOULD STILL MAINTAIN...His time and Law...

You miss that it was FOR MAN...in that he was placed INTO a cadence begun 5 days prior...much like the sun and moon were placed into a cadence begun 3 days prior...

If you mean a commandment to keep the sabbath as a special day: This is first revealed in Exodus, this is after the fall.

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to a people who did NOT remember but had forgotten as slaves...they were then reminded to REMEMBER...

There is evidence in Enoch and Noah times where known and Law...what is the standard of evil after all?

Abraham was obedient to ALL His commandments
Melchizedek was High Priest administering WHICH LAW?
Rachel sat on idols
Joseph knew adultery was a sin to Him

The link from "I am" to YHWH is rather weak at this point, the full form (ego eimi) is quite natural in such a sentence. Just look at verses this construction is used by other persons (e.g. John 1:20,27; 3:20; 9:9; or in other books), and you can see it.

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It was affirmed in His “before Abraham was born I AM” and only a miracle saved Him...

We see Him appeal to the ancient “I WILL BE” as now He is present incarnate and desiring His people to follow Him to complete the restoration as it was in Creation...where “I AM” ye may be also...

As His faithful Holy bride we only then COMPLETE Him...

and finally when the Holy City comes down His kingdom NOT of this world ...He will be with US here on a new earth as it is in heaven...forever more

HalleluYah