Once saved always saved. False?

George Antonios · Oct 12, 2020

Zimmer36 said:
Im confused about salvation. What is the truth about salvation. What do we do? Ive researched lately and many are coming out saying OSAS is an end times heresy that will lead many to fall away. That only if u endure to the end u r saved. So what is true salvation how can someone know they are going to have it? theres always that what if im weak what if i dont endure what if im doing a certain sin,etc etc. im just really confused about this and really worried about where i stand with God

I appreciate the honesty in your question. The reason you're confused is evidently because there are 2 sides to this and both sides have their verses. Listen, this will help you as it helped me. It is undeniable that some verses teach loss of salvation, and it is equally undeniable that some verses teach OSAS. The answer to your question/confusion lies in understanding the dispensational outlay of the Bible.

Under the law of Moses (from Sinai to the cross) OSAS is false.
During the church age (from the cross to the rapture of the church) OSAS is true.
During the tribulation (when the law of Moses returns) OSAS is false.
During the millennial kingdom (when the law is back in effect) OSAS is false.

The problem is people don't obey Paul to be rightly dividing the word of truth (2Ti.2:15) so they pick out verses from the wrong dispensation/age.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 12, 2020

George Antonios said:
The reason you're confused is evidently because there are 2 sides to this and both sides have their verses. Listen, this will help you as it helped me. It is undeniable that some verses teach loss of salvation, and it is equally undeniable that some verses teach OSAS.

Maybe you are just not aware of what you have just posted here, but such claims would prove that the Bible is contradicted internally. And therefore, cannot be trusted.

If it teaches 2 things that are diametrically opposed, then "black is white" and "up is down", and on and on.

Truth never contradicts itself. Ever. Truth isn't "owned" by either side. In fact, both Calvinism and Arminianism have error in them.

George Antonios · Oct 12, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Maybe you are just not aware of what you have just posted here, but such claims would prove that the Bible is contradicted internally. And therefore, cannot be trusted.

If it teaches 2 things that are diametrically opposed, then "black is white" and "up is down", and on and on.

Truth never contradicts itself. Ever. Truth isn't "owned" by either side. In fact, both Calvinism and Arminianism have error in them.

No, things differ from one dispensation to another. That's not a contradiction.
Christ changed some of the "it was said unto you"'s to "but I say unto you" 's.
Contradictions? no.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2020

George Antonios said:
No, things differ from one dispensation to another. That's not a contradiction.
Christ changed some of the "it was said unto you"'s to "but I say unto you" 's.
Contradictions? no.

This is similar to the two (or more) gospel view, which is unbiblical.
It is also known as Mid Acts Dispensationalism (a.k.a. MAD).

MAD in certain circles teaches that there is one gospel by Jesus and another gospel by Paul.

However, Paul was a Jew. So if he was a Jew, then why would he teach that which did not apply to him? Also, why did Paul write to other Jews if he was supposed to only write to the Gentiles?

For Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
(1 Timothy 6:3-5).

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching.

In fact, Mid Acts Dispensationalism is nothing new. Back in Paul's day, people were also wrongfully following Paul, too. For Paul said that there should not be divisions between Christ and what he taught (1 Corinthians 1:10-13); For Paul said, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2020

George Antonios said:
No, things differ from one dispensation to another. That's not a contradiction.
Christ changed some of the "it was said unto you"'s to "but I say unto you" 's.
Contradictions? no.

Many people today are confused when they read Paul in Ephesians 5:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5 because they do not understand that he was fighting against a false heresy of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism.” This was a false belief that taught that in order to be initially saved, one must first be circumcised. If a person believed this false way, they would be making the “Law Alone” the basis or foundation of their salvation. Just read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, and Romans 8:1. This is what Paul meant when he said that we are not saved by works, and or we are not under the Law, etc.; Paul was referring to: “Law Alone Salvationism” or “Works Alone Salvationism” (that did not include God's saving grace).

Now, it is true, we are saved by God's grace. This is our initial and foundational salvation. But while we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is simply not true. For the moment I tell someone that all they need to do to be saved is to believe in Jesus and nothing else, they are going to not be concerned with living holy (because they do not think it is necessary to enter God's Kingdom).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2020

To all:

There are all kinds of ways men change the Scriptures to justify a sin and still be saved doctrine.
But this is not the true way of the Lord. Jesus is God, and God is holy and good. He cannot justify a person's thinking they can sin and still be saved in any dispensation. God is not a respecter of persons. If God favored one group of people to sin and still be saved and yet another group He did not favor to do that, God would be inconsistent and unfair.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2020

Abraham is said to be justified by both faith (Romans 4:1-6), and works (James 2:21). Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Nothing has changed. Faith without works is dead in every dispensation.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 12, 2020

George Antonios said:
No, things differ from one dispensation to another. That's not a contradiction.

There is only one way to be saved; in every dispensation. Faith in the Messiah.

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation can be lost in one section and that salvation is eternally guaranteed in another.

That would be ludicrious.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 12, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Abraham is said to be justified by both faith (Romans 4:1-6), and works (James 2:21).

The difference refers to who's perspective the justification comes from. In Romans, it is God who justifies, and is based on faith.

In James, it is those who observe the believer who justifies them. However, the example given in 2:15,16 is about a believer who gave only lip service to cold and hungry believers. In their eyes, the hypocrite was NOT justified.

iow, he wasn't living up to the faith he claimed.

Doesn't mean the hypocrite didn't have saving faith, it means he wasn't living his faith.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2020

To all:

Some say that it is only the observer of the believer who justifies them. But this is false because James 2:21 says that Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac upon the altar. Nobody was around to observe Abraham and his son, and God rewarded Abraham for his faithful action in offering up Isaac. James makes this point clear in the previous chapter.

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (James 1:21-22).

James says that we have to receive the engrafted Word (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures), which is able to save our souls. We need to lay a part all filthiness as a part of saving our souls. We need to be doers of the Word otherwise we deceive ourself. Being a doer of the Word involves works.

Albion · Oct 12, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
But this is false because James 2:21 says that Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac upon the altar.

If, however, we take that verse by James in a super-literal way, it would mean not that works count but that they are ALL that matters.

I don't know a single Christian--and certainly not any denomination--who agrees with that proposition.

Since that is NOT what James means (and his epistle takes pains to explain why such a POV is wrong)...,

What, then, can this mean?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2020

Albion said:
If, however, we take that verse by James in a super-literal way, it would mean not that works count but that they are ALL that matters.

I don't know a single Christian--and certainly not any denomination--who agrees with that proposition.

Since that is NOT what James means (and his epistle takes pains to explain why such a POV is wrong)...,

What, then, can this mean?

Here is a...

Short List on Works or Sanctification (involving Salvation):

We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

If you need a bigger list, I can provide that for you.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
To all:

Some say that it is only the observer of the believer who justifies them. But this is false because James 2:21 says that Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac upon the altar.

Once again BH misses the point, maybe conveniently. People observe believers. And when a believer doesn't live up to the standards of the Christian way of life, they are viewed as hypocrites. iow, their faith is NOT justified by said observers.

And the example James gave in 2:15,16 proves my point.

Nobody was around to observe Abraham and his son, and God rewarded Abraham for his faithful action in offering up Isaac.

Oh, this is rich. God had the entire event RECORDED so that even people of today, thousands of years later can SEE Abraham's very strong faith. iow, his faith was justified by those who read of the event and SAW his works that came from his faith.

James says that we have to receive the engrafted Word (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures), which is able to save our souls.

"able to"??? James was writing to saved Jews. They were ALREADY saved. So again BH misses the point that James made here. The context makes it all clear.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.
21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.[/QUOTE]

The red words show the subject, temptation.
The green words show the response to temptation
The blue words show the result of the response in the green words.

iow, the believer is SAVED from temptation WHEN they "get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and accept the word (that has already been) planted in you.

Very simple and straightforward.

We need to lay a part all filthiness as a part of saving our souls.

Uh, no. You are missing the whole point. Your view puts works *lifestyle) in the criteria for getting saved. And Eph 2:9 REFUTES you.

George Antonios · Oct 13, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
There is only one way to be saved; in every dispensation. Faith in the Messiah.

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation can be lost in one section and that salvation is eternally guaranteed in another.

That would be ludicrious.

The idea of people being saved by faith in the Messiah (I suppose you mean in him dying for them) in the Old Testament is an oft repeated mantra that flies in the face of scriptures. The apostles themselves had no idea about Christ dying for them, let alone anyone else:

Albion · Oct 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
If you need a bigger list, I can provide that for you.

No, just an answer to the question I asked (if you would care to offer one; if not, that's all right).

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
There is only one way to be saved; in every dispensation. Faith in the Messiah.

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation can be lost in one section and that salvation is eternally guaranteed in another.

That would be ludicrious.

George Antonios said:
The idea of people being saved by faith in the Messiah (I suppose you mean in him dying for them) in the Old Testament is an oft repeated mantra that flies in the face of scriptures.

That is just plain wrong. How did Paul evangelize Jews and Gentiles? From the Scriptures. So, just what does that refer to? The OT, obviously.

Acts 9:20 - At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

If that isn't enough, there's more; much more.

Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

2 Tim 3:15 - and how from childhood you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

The apostles themselves had no idea about Christ dying for them, let alone anyone else:

Your comments reveal how much you do not know your Bible.

Even Caiaphas the High Priest know what Jesus had claimed that He was going to do, and used it against Him:

John 18:14 - Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jewish leaders that it would be good if one man died for the people.

George Antonios · Oct 13, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
There is only one way to be saved; in every dispensation. Faith in the Messiah.

The Bible doesn't teach that salvation can be lost in one section and that salvation is eternally guaranteed in another.

That would be ludicrious.

That is just plain wrong. How did Paul evangelize Jews and Gentiles? From the Scriptures. So, just what does that refer to? The OT, obviously.

Acts 9:20 - At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

If that isn't enough, there's more; much more.

Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

2 Tim 3:15 - and how from childhood you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Your comments reveal how much you do not know your Bible.

Even Caiaphas the High Priest know what Jesus had claimed that He was going to do, and used it against Him:

John 18:14 - Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jewish leaders that it would be good if one man died for the people.

That the Messiah was prophesied to die I did not deny. I already addressed that however by showing you that even Peter said that the prophets themselves did not understand that that's what those prophecies were saying. Please look again at the table.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2020

George Antonios said:
That the Messiah was prophesied to die I did not deny. I already addressed that however by showing you that even Peter said that the prophets themselves did not understand that that's what those prophecies were saying. Please look again at the table.

This is what you said:
"The idea of people being saved by faith in the Messiah (I suppose you mean in him dying for them) in the Old Testament is an oft repeated mantra that flies in the face of scriptures."

It seems you don't know exactly what you are arguing.

Paul preached Christ crucified. So, what is your point?

George Antonios · Oct 13, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
This is what you said:
"The idea of people being saved by faith in the Messiah (I suppose you mean in him dying for them) in the Old Testament is an oft repeated mantra that flies in the face of scriptures."

It seems you don't know exactly what you are arguing.

Paul preached Christ crucified. So, what is your point?

That Christ would die was prophesied in the scriptures but not revealed yet nor understood until the New Testament.
No one was saved by looking forward to the cross.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 13, 2020

George Antonios said:
That Christ would die was prophesied in the scriptures but not revealed yet nor understood until the New Testament.

Since it was prophesied in the OT proves that it was revealed in the OT. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been prophesied in the OT.

No one was saved by looking forward to the cross.

Really? Then how were people saved before the cross?

Once saved always saved. False?

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