[MOVED] Is ignorance an excuse?

eleos1954 · Oct 12, 2020

Jonaitis said:
I could be wrong, but the Congo is identifies majorly Christian.

However, ignorance of God doesn't exist. Romans 1:18-32 clearly explains that God is evident to all men and women in all places. It is a mistaken belief that all men are innocent before God if they have never heard of Jesus Christ, but Scripture clearly states that all men are sinners and deserve wrath. We have all rebelled against God, and this is evident within us and our conscience.

I just used the Congo as an example of being a remote place. There has been and are places where the gospel is not available for one reason or another.

I am not saying all men are innocent (certainly not) .... we know there will be many lost.

Did Adam and Eve know of Jesus Christ? How about all that lived before His 1st coming? (some lost/some saved) Just because many did not hear of His name ... are not necessarily not lost ... is my point.

1213 · Oct 12, 2020

eleos1954 said:
...
So, we have many people who have died or will die without the knowledge of our Lord.

So, what do you think is the eternal destiny of these people and why? Please provide scriptural references.

By what the Bible tells, eternal life is for righteous. And person can be counted righteous, even if he has not yet heard of Jesus, because it is said:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Jonaitis · Oct 12, 2020

eleos1954 said:
I just used the Congo as an example of being a remote place. There has been and are places where the gospel is not available for one reason or another.

I am not saying all men are innocent (certainly not) .... we know there will be many lost.

Did Adam and Eve know of Jesus Christ? How about all that lived before His 1st coming? (some lost/some saved) Just because many did not hear of His name ... are not necessarily not lost ... is my point.

Yes, Adam and Even believed in the promise of Genesis 3:15. Yes, there were many believers in the Old Testament.

Jaxxi · Oct 13, 2020

eleos1954 said:
We live in a remarkable time in history in regard to information and the availability of the Bible and many valuable study resources and historical data .... most of us are without excuse.

ok ... so I say "most" let me explain ...

Acts 17:30
English Standard Version
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

In history past ... obviously there were people who had no knowledge of God and died earthly death.

Even so, today .... way back in the bush ... or congo ... (ie. very remote places) (countries who ban Christianity)... this is still the case.

So, we have many people who have died or will die without the knowledge of our Lord.

So, what do you think is the eternal destiny of these people and why? Please provide scriptural references.

If they are His children, He will make Himself known.

But in your great mercy you did not put an end to them or abandon them, for you are a gracious and merciful God. Nehemiah 9:31

mindlight · Oct 13, 2020

eleos1954 said:
We live in a remarkable time in history in regard to information and the availability of the Bible and many valuable study resources and historical data .... most of us are without excuse.

ok ... so I say "most" let me explain ...

Acts 17:30
English Standard Version
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

In history past ... obviously there were people who had no knowledge of God and died earthly death.

Even so, today .... way back in the bush ... or congo ... (ie. very remote places) (countries who ban Christianity)... this is still the case.

So, we have many people who have died or will die without the knowledge of our Lord.

So, what do you think is the eternal destiny of these people and why? Please provide scriptural references.

Sure Abraham and Moses both died without confessing Christ but we know that both are now heavenly citizens because of what Christ has done. A few years ago I would have subscribed to view that no one has an excuse now except for a few isolated tribes perhaps. But now I have become aware how ignorance comes on many levels and while people may have heard the word patterns that is the gospel they still remain ignorant of the real meaning of the gospel and the forgiveness, grace and mercy that comes with it. Many are not saved cause no one has ever really properly explained it to them and what they have heard of God and Christians is enough to put them off rather than to pull them in

fhansen · Oct 13, 2020

eleos1954 said:
We live in a remarkable time in history in regard to information and the availability of the Bible and many valuable study resources and historical data .... most of us are without excuse.

ok ... so I say "most" let me explain ...

Acts 17:30
English Standard Version
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,

In history past ... obviously there were people who had no knowledge of God and died earthly death.

Even so, today .... way back in the bush ... or congo ... (ie. very remote places) (countries who ban Christianity)... this is still the case.

So, we have many people who have died or will die without the knowledge of our Lord.

So, what do you think is the eternal destiny of these people and why? Please provide scriptural references.

According to classical church teachings, knowledge always contributes to a person's culpability for sin. IOW we're held accountable based on what we know, for one thing. All people are duty-bound by justice, itself, to look for a higher Truth, for God, and to do the best they can in that endeavor with the knowledge and faculties that they have. From there we leave it up to Him to judge how well or poorly we've done.

fhansen · Oct 13, 2020

eleos1954 said:
so ... Gods Law has always been in the conscience of His created intelligent beings and always will be.

Yes, the Catholic Church, for its part, refers to it as the "natural law", as opposed to the publicly revealed law, both issuing from God's wisdom. Augustine put it this way,
"God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

eleos1954 · Oct 13, 2020

mindlight said:
Sure Abraham and Moses both died without confessing Christ but we know that both are now heavenly citizens because of what Christ has done. A few years ago I would have subscribed to view that no one has an excuse now except for a few isolated tribes perhaps. But now I have become aware how ignorance comes on many levels and while people may have heard the word patterns that is the gospel they still remain ignorant of the real meaning of the gospel and the forgiveness, grace and mercy that comes with it. Many are not saved cause no one has ever really properly explained it to them and what they have heard of God and Christians is enough to put them off rather than to pull them in

I would agree with much that you said ... however ....

I'm talking about people who due to isolation and/or also countries that suppress Christianity ... I'm referring to people who have never heard about the gospel throughout human history (through no fault of their own), including present times and onto until He returns.

eleos1954 · Oct 13, 2020

fhansen said:
Yes, the Catholic Church, for its part, refers to it as the "natural law", as opposed to the publicly revealed law, both issuing from God's wisdom. Augustine put it this way,
"God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart."

interesting

Romans 2:14-15

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

mindlight · Oct 14, 2020

eleos1954 said:
I would agree with much that you said ... however ....

I'm talking about people who due to isolation and/or also countries that suppress Christianity ... I'm referring to people who have never heard about the gospel throughout human history (through no fault of their own), including present times and onto until He returns.

I subscribe to view that God judges each man by what he has heard (Karl Rahner - Anonymous Christians).

tturt · Oct 16, 2020

Cant be an excuse because God has - is --

- "In reality, the truth of God is known instinctively, for God has embedded this knowledge inside every human heart. -for from [the] world's creation the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity,—so as to render them inexcusable. (Rom 1:19-20)
-"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

eleos1954 · Oct 17, 2020

mindlight said:
I subscribe to view that God judges each man by what he has heard (Karl Rahner - Anonymous Christians).

It's a heart issue .... that only God knows ...

Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

1 Kings 8:39
Then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind)

pdudgeon · Oct 20, 2020

Caliban said:
Actually, since the Information Age began, secularity has radically increased. Religious belief in in decline in all democracies with free access to education. How do you explain this without concluding that the more people learn about religious claims, evidence, and facts--the more they withhold theistic belief?

Young people certainly do not find the God of the Bible to be "loving." They tend to find intolerance in the teachings of the Bible and religious institutions.

Not all of them.
By the grace of God I was privileged recently to worship with a whole flock of young children. It was a blessing to see their enthusiasm, and their faith, and their pure joy at being able to worship together.

pescador · Oct 20, 2020

eleos1954 said:
I just used the Congo as an example of being a remote place. There has been and are places where the gospel is not available for one reason or another.

I am not saying all men are innocent (certainly not) .... we know there will be many lost.

Did Adam and Eve know of Jesus Christ? How about all that lived before His 1st coming? (some lost/some saved) Just because many did not hear of His name ... are not necessarily not lost ... is my point.

Which Congo are you referring to? The Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC or Congo-Kinshasa), formerly a Belgian colony or the Republic of the Congo (Congo-Brazzaville), formerly a French colony?

Mr. M · Oct 22, 2020

Knowledge of God=/=Knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
"This Gospel must be preached to everyone, and then the end will come".
If a mighty angel will one day preach the everlasting Gospel, won't
all hear, the quick and the dead? On earth and in the earth[Hades].
Just wondering aloud.
Revelation 14:6. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

[MOVED] Is ignorance an excuse?

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