Is forced vaccination related to the mark of the beast?

Timtofly

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It's funny how futurists want to read some bits of Revelation as metaphor (about some whacky future tech John could never have imagined) but then don't read other bits literally (like us actually having weird writing on our foreheads in heaven.)
God seems to be the only one placing marks on the forehead. Pretty sure God places 666 because one either gets His name on their foreheads or their own mark 666. Satan just urges one to take their own mark instead of God's own name. Just saying.

God's name means you are in the Lamb's book of life. 666 guarantees you will not be in the Lamb's book of life.
 
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eclipsenow

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During the days of Daniel three Hebrew men were given a choice.

They could either bow down to the image when the music played, or face the consequences.

They refused to bow down. Do you think they made the wrong decision?




You may be faced with the same choice.

Therefore, you need to think about what you are going to do, instead of what I am going to do.

.
And..... you have neatly and perfectly avoided answering all my questions.
Right hand vs left hand.
Back of head vs forehead.
Salvation vs clothing.
Trust and relationship vs outward appearances.
 
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eclipsenow

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God seems to be the only one placing marks on the forehead. Pretty sure God places 666 because one either gets His name on their foreheads or their own mark 666. Satan just urges one to take their own mark instead of God's own name. Just saying.

God's name means you are in the Lamb's book of life. 666 guarantees you will not be in the Lamb's book of life.
But why - when we are saved by grace, not works? Why do you lose your salvation if you get a tattoo on your forehead?
 
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claninja

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How would you explain a passage that the structure of the Greek implies something both happened in the past and is happening in the present at the same time? (Being both "perfect" and "present" tense in the same sentence?)



1.) Already explained. The prefect tense in that passage IS MODIFIED by the adverb NOT YET.

John 20:17a Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have NOT YET ascended to the Father;

It would be the same things as saying "I have NOT YET
gone to the grocery store". Gone is a past tense verb, but since it is MODIFIED by not yet, it means it has not yet happened despite the tense of the verb.

Why do you keep ignoring the adverb NOT YET, which is modifying the perfect tense verb ascended?

2.) As Jesus was not ascending at the moment he was talking to mary, it's obvious that the present verb tense points to the fact that it was certain Jesus was to ascend.

John 20:17b but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

It would be the same thing as saying "I am going to the grocery store", even though I have not yet left the house yet. It's the same thing as God saying "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" as proof of a future resurrection of the dead. These things are certain.

My answer is that God is not confined to time as we understand it.

I agree that God is not bound by time. But this as an explanation is just grasping at straws in order to explain your belief, which I can't seem to find in any serious scholars or church writings.....

Yet you haven't answered that aspect of this. You only say that you don't believe that is what the passage is saying; but don't give a logical alternate explanation for it.

I have given the above explanation multiple times now. It is consistent with commentaries such as: Elliots, Barnes, Matthew Pooles, Gills, Meyers, Bengels.

You are the only person I have encountered that has Jesus ascending prior to the ascension just prior to pentecost. What reputable commentaries or Churches teach this?

Yet this verb "foreknown" (foreordained in KJV) is also in the perfect tense. But so is the passage in Revelation 13 that speaks of the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"; (also perfect tense).

Yea, I agree it's perfect tense. As I said, I don't believe Christ was literally crucified prior to the foundation of the world. Instead I believe, this refers to the plan of God in regards to Christ's death for the world, was foreknown and predestined by God prior to the foundation of the world. This is consistent with Peter and Jesus

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world

1 peter 1:20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.

You're the only person I have ever encountered that believes Jesus was literally crucified prior to the creation of the universe.

I can't find any serious scholar or theologian or church consensus that agrees with you......

What other explanation would you give for the fact that souls are real entities? How would the soul of a person (which has real existence) be under a symbolic alter?

Now is the alter language symbolic for a form of existence that can not be explained to a temporal being that exists in a material world, other than using a material world example? (Probably! - and this is why Jesus says "If I tell you earthy things and you don't believe; how are you going to believe if I tell you heavenly things?")

And again; your lack of either being able or willing to grasp this concept is illustrated in this statement:

Clear example why I have to keep asking you the same questions over and over. You answers are a little confusing:

In one instance you answer my question about your belief in a literal alter with:

"(So yes, there's has to be a "literal" alter in heaven, just as there has to be a "literal" Jerusalem in heaven.)"

then you say this:

"Now is the alter language symbolic for a form of existence that can not be explained to a temporal being that exists in a material world, other than using a material world example? (Probably! - and this is why Jesus says "If I tell you earthy things and you don't believe; how are you going to believe if I tell you heavenly things?")"

What did the earthly alter in Jerusalem symbolize?

So if you are not a full preterist; you are left to acknowledge that there is some future fulfillment of things spoken of is Scripture yet to come.

Correct, I acknowledge there are things still to be fulfilled. I am a partial preterist.

You have a problem though. You state that the language in Scripture that speaks of the NHNE is "symbolic" and was fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

No problem at all. God stated he would speak to the prophets of Israel in parables, riddles, visions, and dreams UNLIKE how he clearly spoke to Moses

Numbers 12:6-8 He said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, will reveal Myself to him in a vision; I will speak to him in a dream. 7But this is not so with My servant Moses; he is faithful in all My house.aI speak with him face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD.

Isaiah is one of those prophets of Israel, therefore, God spoke to him in visions/dreams/parables/riddles, UNLIKE moses whom he spoke clearly to. Therefore I can know this is not literal clear language like what was spoken to Moses.

Isaiah 65:17 For behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.f The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.


So what Scripture passages discuss the events that are yet to be fulfilled?

I haven't stood before the judgment seat of Christ to receive my due for the things I have done, whether good or bad, have you? I believe this is still future.

2 corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment

revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

How do you reconcile this with all of humanity standing before judgement?

Not exactly sure what you mean by this. I don't view it as needing "reconciling. Jesus charging 1st century Jerusalem with all the righteous blood shed, does not contradict anything. Jesus is the source of all the righteous blood shed. Therefore, those that rejected and killed him are charged with all the righteous blood shed.

You are going to just have to accept the plain clear words of Jesus:

Matthew 23:34-36 Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.



And this is why the heavens and earth are recreated; to accommodate the glory of God. This universe can not contain God's glory because it is a corrupted universe. This is why God told Moses that he could not see God's face and live. God's glorified presence in this current universe can do nothing but destroy it; because the fullness of what God is just won't "fit" into this context.

Then why didn't the universe explode when God was hovering over the waters of His creation in genesis? Or when He was on mount sanai giving moses the law, or when his glory was in solomon's temple?

There is no verse that states God is creating NHNE because His glory can't fit in it. At least preface that is your opinion. I have no problem if that is your opinion, we all have opinions on things that aren't easily explainable.


If one is atoned for by Christ's sacrifice; then yes, they have stood before the judgment seat of Christ.

So you have already received your rewards for what you have done in the body, whether good or bad?

So yes, I have stood before the judgement seat of Christ. This is why I am spared from the second death (to be cast into the Lake of Fire) because I'm part of the first resurrection. (The "last resurrection" (just as Jesus was the "last Adam") is the recreation of the physical body.

At least we agree the 1st resurrection is Christ, and our parting in it through being born again spares us from the 2nd death.

Apparently the sun was undergoing some sort of preparation for destruction; for if Jesus failed the atonement (or quit it) that would have commenced the destruction of the cosmos. Seeing how if nothing is redeemed; what is the point of it continuing to exist?

This is why this one week time span was called "the great tribulation".

Now seeing how the Chinese recorded what they saw as some sort of eclipse; what would that have anything to do with clouds in Jerusalem? Cloud cover in Israel would not have obstructed what the Chinese saw of the sun.

So no, the darkening of the sun had nothing to do with clouds in the sky. And it also was not a lunar eclipse because of the position of the sun and moon in relation to the earth at that time of the month. (You can't have a solar eclipse on a full moon; it's impossible.)

What extra biblical source can you use to confirm the sky went dark, not due to clouds or eclipses, at Jesus' crucifixion over all the land of Israel?

I mean its only fair that I demand you to prove it with extra biblical sources, if you demand extra biblical sources to prove matthew 24:29 literally occurred after the destruction of Jerusalem.

How does symbolic and parabolic language jive with our literal existence? Do we somehow go from a literal material existence to a symbolic one? How would the NHNE not be literal and material if we are literal and material right now?

Yea, why did God speak to the prophets through symbolic and parabolic language? Why did Jesus only speak in parables? That doesn't jive with us being literal people............

Your argument makes no sense........


Your assertion of what the passages mean, do not address the issues I've pointed out to you that your interpretations have. I see your error clearly. I've "learned" your error. You refuse to acknowledge your own error.

They weren't meant to address the issues that YOU have. My intent was not to convince you that they were right. They were purely meant to show that there are non full preterists that believe the symbolic/parabolic/visions/dreams/riddles of the new heavens and earth in regards to the removal of the old covenant system and reconciliation of the world to God through Christ are not to be taken as literal disintegrations of the physical world and cosmos.

Yet at this point, I'm sure you can tell me quite clearly what I believe. So, are they really "clarifying questions" or something else?

Which again brings me to the question of what is the point of this conversation? Why are you engaging in it?

You are free to stop engaging at any time.
 
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The Righterzpen

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You are free to stop engaging at any time.

Which I am doing right now.

So you can take that in your own mind as a "win" if you wish. You still have not convinced me that your interpretation is Biblically sound. (There are so many things you haven't answered. Like why do the verses exist such as "Today you will be with me in paradise.", or "lamb slain from the foundation of the world", or "men of Ninivah will rise in judgement with this generation...", (when did that happen if these things have already been fulfilled?) or many other numbers of verses; when that 'actually isn't true' - according to your explanation.)

Anyways; you seem like a "gnostic preterist" to me; (besides the fact I'm more than adequately explained things to you); so I'm done here.

And we part on the notion of: "believe what you want".

You'll find out on Judgement Day what the truth is.
 
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The Righterzpen

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European Doctors and Lawyers exposing the truth about COVID-19:


.

I've seen several of these types of videos; and at this point, I'm not buying either side of the story.

There is plenty of evidence this virus was engineered.
There's plenty of evidence that it was released on purpose.
One side of the narrative is saying it's dangerous; the other side is saying it isn't any worse than the flu; yet there are plenty of people who've died suddenly and unexpectedly; above and beyond general national stats, and for seemingly unrelated reasons?

I don't believe either side is telling us the entire truth.

I believe it's deadlier than anyone is telling us; (because if they told us what this cobbled together virus really does to the immune system and the body's ability to regulate itself; people would be freaking out.)

Having already had the "respiratory infection" aspect of Covid; if I keel over and die in the next... (what; let's say couple of months to a couple of years) of mysterious heart, kidney or blood issues? Is that really a "fluke", or something else?

And from a different (yet related aspect): If the "bad guys" are the one's who released it; then the "good guys" knew about it and either failed to act, or failed to effectively intervene even though they allegedly "have it all"?

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to fall.

At this point I've come to the conclusion that "drain the swamp" really means "Replace this set of swamp creatures over here, with that set of swamp creatures over there." (When in reality, it's all the same swamp; seeing how in Revelation that "beast system" is thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of time. (Thus it exists until the end of time.)

So for anyone who doesn't think this earth will actually be recreated? I agree with Paul. "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." Then eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die for there is no hope. Just an endless cycle of one more virus, one more war, one more natural disaster; who cares?

Vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
 
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eclipsenow

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I've seen several of these types of videos; and at this point, I'm not buying either side of the story.

There is plenty of evidence this virus was engineered.
There's plenty of evidence that it was released on purpose.
One side of the narrative is saying it's dangerous; the other side is saying it isn't any worse than the flu; yet there are plenty of people who've died suddenly and unexpectedly; above and beyond general national stats, and for seemingly unrelated reasons?

I don't believe either side is telling us the entire truth.

I believe it's deadlier than anyone is telling us; (because if they told us what this cobbled together virus really does to the immune system and the body's ability to regulate itself; people would be freaking out.)

Having already had the "respiratory infection" aspect of Covid; if I keel over and die in the next... (what; let's say couple of months to a couple of years) of mysterious heart, kidney or blood issues? Is that really a "fluke", or something else?

And from a different (yet related aspect): If the "bad guys" are the one's who released it; then the "good guys" knew about it and either failed to act, or failed to effectively intervene even though they allegedly "have it all"?

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to fall.

At this point I've come to the conclusion that "drain the swamp" really means "Replace this set of swamp creatures over here, with that set of swamp creatures over there." (When in reality, it's all the same swamp; seeing how in Revelation that "beast system" is thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of time. (Thus it exists until the end of time.)

So for anyone who doesn't think this earth will actually be recreated? I agree with Paul. "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." Then eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die for there is no hope. Just an endless cycle of one more virus, one more war, one more natural disaster; who cares?

Vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
The virus is real - but repeated bioweapons experts confirm it was cooked up in nature's kitchen.
This 'beast chip' conspiracy theory is a direct insult to and character attack upon the many scientists and doctors working on the vaccine - many of whom are Christians. What a disgraceful thing to say about the work your fellow human beings are doing to save lives - many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ trying to save lives from a genuine pandemic!

You are not qualified to discuss these matters.
But I probably understand where you're coming from. I had a family health crisis years ago and after 6 months acting as carer, burned out. I read some environmental doomsday conspiracy website and in my desperation to avoid the close and personal pain of thinking about whether my dear little boy was going to survive his cancer - I started obsessing over the 2004 'peak oil' movies like End of Suburbia etc. Unlike Qanon and this Christian-beast-mark version of Qanon, this stuff was based on some pretty solid science - for the time. I believed it deeply. It met a need - a need for certainty in an uncertain world. And the weird thing that comes out of doomsday and conspiracy theory cults and movements - like a psychological law?

ANY certainty is better than uncertainty.
Uncertainty fries the brain.
Better CERTAINTY OF DOOMSDAY rather than uncertainty about bad things that might happen.
So what happens when a bunch of people get stressed about a pandemic?
A bunch of ONLINE CERTAINTY springs into action!

But it's not real. It's just another online conspiracy theory - like a deeply entrenched meme that hijacks your brain. You - just like I did so many years ago - probably need a complete cold turkey break from the internet for a few months.

I commit you to God - and hope you get through this thing you're going through. Good luck with it! Also, try and walk a lot. Cheers.
 
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claninja

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Which I am doing right now.

I wouldn't classify responding as no longer engaging....

So you can take that in your own mind as a "win" if you wish.

I don't view discussions that way.

You still have not convinced me that your interpretation is Biblically sound.

ditto

(There are so many things you haven't answered. Like why do the verses exist such as "Today you will be with me in paradise.", or "lamb slain from the foundation of the world",

That's untrue, I have covered both of these multiple times throughout our discussion.

or "men of Ninivah will rise in judgement with this generation...", (when did that happen if these things have already been fulfilled?)

Now this is true, I have not shared my thoughts or opinions on this passage.

or many other numbers of verses; when that 'actually isn't true' - according to your explanation.)

And I could say the same generic thing about your responses. I provide commentaries to back up my positions. I can't find one serious scholar or church commentary that agrees with your personal interpretation.

Anyways; you seem like a "gnostic preterist" to me; (besides the fact I'm more than adequately explained things to you); so I'm done here.

I don't think you know what gnosticism is based on this statement. None of my position is in any way related to gnosticism. But if you disagree I challenge you provide evidence of this drive by accusation.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The virus is real - but repeated bioweapons experts confirm it was cooked up in nature's kitchen.
This 'beast chip' conspiracy theory is a direct insult to and character attack upon the many scientists and doctors working on the vaccine - many of whom are Christians. What a disgraceful thing to say about the work your fellow human beings are doing to save lives - many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ trying to save lives from a genuine pandemic!

You are not qualified to discuss these matters.
But I probably understand where you're coming from. I had a family health crisis years ago and after 6 months acting as carer, burned out. I read some environmental doomsday conspiracy website and in my desperation to avoid the close and personal pain of thinking about whether my dear little boy was going to survive his cancer - I started obsessing over the 2004 'peak oil' movies like End of Suburbia etc. Unlike Qanon and this Christian-beast-mark version of Qanon, this stuff was based on some pretty solid science - for the time. I believed it deeply. It met a need - a need for certainty in an uncertain world. And the weird thing that comes out of doomsday and conspiracy theory cults and movements - like a psychological law?

ANY certainty is better than uncertainty.
Uncertainty fries the brain.
Better CERTAINTY OF DOOMSDAY rather than uncertainty about bad things that might happen.
So what happens when a bunch of people get stressed about a pandemic?
A bunch of ONLINE CERTAINTY springs into action!

But it's not real. It's just another online conspiracy theory - like a deeply entrenched meme that hijacks your brain. You - just like I did so many years ago - probably need a complete cold turkey break from the internet for a few months.

I commit you to God - and hope you get through this thing you're going through. Good luck with it! Also, try and walk a lot. Cheers.

First off, you know nothing about my life experience. So you have no idea whether or not I'm actually "qualified to discuss these matters".

I've faced personal challenges that were far more trying than having contracted this virus. I did clean up after Desert Storm and in 2010, I was in a catastrophic car accident that has left me permanently mobility impaired. And none of this even addresses the challenges I faced from my family of origin environment, my son's disability, (my son also has a chronic and potentially fatal medical condition) or my husband's suicide.

Believe me or not; I am remarkably sane and functional considering what's happened both to me and around me in my lifetime; but I've also been in recovery groups and counseling for the past 30 years. But for the grace of God, I'm still here; but I've also put a lot of work into my mental health. So, you may tell me I'm crazy; but not like I haven't heard that one before either. They said Jesus was crazy too. Just because you call me a chair, doesn't mean I'm a chair.

So, I know things I saw and knew happened during Desert Storm; (which also were not reported to the public) give me valid reason to be skeptical of the narrative the news presents to us. I first saw that in Desert Storm; which eventually brought me back to questioning what actually happened in 9/11.

After 9/11, I started looking at the entire history of the 20th century; and other than basic facts of "war X started in Y year and ended in year Z"; just about all the rest of what is in history books, is propaganda in one form or another.

And this isn't concerning just political conflicts. There's "conspiracy theories" out there about the Titanic and the FED, the holocaust, Kennedy's assassination, the moon landing, Autism and vaccines, 5G, chemical spraying, GMO food. Pick one; I don't think there's a "conspiracy theory" out there that I haven't heard of yet. (And no - I know the earth is not flat!)

And yes, I've watched "The End of Suburbia" too.

So no, this virus isn't my first time at: "Gee is what they're telling us actually the truth?" And Covid 19 has not produced the biggest crisis I've ever seen in my lifetime. Although I would say it's probably the most "socially complicated for public life in general" event that I've seen in my lifetime.

Besides this; (trying to "read into" my psyche) I think you missed the point of what I said.

BUT; what better way to address a bunch of issues (like the energy crisis, pollution, the loss of birds, bees, frogs, farm land, and wilderness ecosystems) by creating a pandemic (or more likely a series of pandemics) to kill off the human population.

Or maybe (believers at least) will "get lucky" and Christ will return before the real proverbial stinky stuff hits the BIG fan! So.... let's take a look at Covid.

First off, I didn't say the virus wasn't real. And secondly, my understanding of the "mark of the beast" has nothing to do with vaccines or microchips.

That (vaccine / microchip) concept is what I would call an "extra Biblical" narrative. Just like 1st century Jews had their idea of what they thought the Messiah "should" be; the "beast system" has its own narrative of what eschatology "should" be. (Which also plays into the global world view of narrative of sustainability.)

Now just because Satan has his own warped eschatological narrative; doesn't mean that people "working for him" aren't trying to bring this warped narrative into reality. I'm assuming you know that they are trying to erect another temple over there. That's no secret to anyone who's politically aware. This beast system narrative is a lot bigger than Qanon. Q is just one way of describing (in secular terms) the political arm of it.

The other thing you misperceive about me is that I don't think all vaccines are bad; but they aren't all exactly safe either. Those scientists and doctors with good intentions, do what they think is best with the information they have. But like anyone else on this planet; their knowledge is incomplete. That reality (incomplete knowledge) doesn't change, even if they have the purest motives. (This goes for resources too; it's very true that we don't have unlimited resources. We will run out of gas, oil, clean water, food etc. This earth was never created to be endlessly sustainable. This is why the Christian's hope is not in this life.)

Now obviously there are other people who have this knowledge who use it for destructive purposes. Trump keeps calling this "the China virus"; yet if it really was "naturally occurring" than why would it be "the China virus" when it "naturally" could have originated anywhere? (Which I believe it has multiple origin points. Gain of function research has been done (particularly on coronaviruses) globally for at least the past 15 years. You can find the published research results on medical websites on the internet. It's all "hiding" out there in plain sight. Google it.

Scientists also know this thing has RNA sequences (it's spike protein furin cleavage site) in it that don't exist in any other bat coronavirus. It cleaves best to human ACE 2 receptors than it cleaves to any other species' ACE 2 receptors. And that aspect of it supposedly comes from a bat virus? Well, that type of mutation does not happen naturally. Natural mutation swaps out a nucleotide here or there; not whole RNA sequences; (which is what you have in this case).

Additionally, there are two other pieces of information that have surfaced in regards to logistics of this virus that are pretty clear evidence that its release (or at least some form of engineered virus) was planned. First is that the economic stimulus bill for the coronavirus relief package began its journey through the US congress in January of 2019. Second is that certain medical companies have requisitions for Covid 19 tests that were ordered in like July or August of 2019.

Then we have the circumstantial evidence that global governments knew what this was when it surfaced. Bureaucracies run on inertia. They don't do something about anything until it becomes such a big issue that they can't ignore it. The world didn't do that with this thing though. As soon as it "got out of" China, the world went into lock down. The reason I think they did that is because they feared it was going to be far more obviously deadly than what we currently know concerning it's (generally accepted) initial respiratory symptoms.

Now the thing we still don't know concerning herd immunity; is how many people have actually had it. We don't know this because some people who were infected don't have antibodies specifically for it. (They may have coronavirus antibodies; but does exposure to previous coronaviruses actually help immunity to this one? (That is unclear too.) Also coronavirus antibody levels drop to "undetectable" eventually anyways.

The other thing is that we have no idea how many people were infected when the first wave of deaths hit. And we don't know what the potential vulnerabilities to death were that happened in that wave. When the serological reports came out from various areas where outbreaks occurred; (and this was back in May) the estimated percent of people who'd had it was between 8 and 10%. Well, 5 months later that stat hasn't changed. They are still estimating that only about 10% of a given population has been infected. What's up with that?

So if all factors remained constant; (which we know they don't because aspects such as treatment options change) a million dead in 5 months constitutes what rate of infection?

Yet if the larger agenda of the elites is to address longterm issues (such as energy, space and sustainability on this planet) pandemics are much more palatable to the ears of the public than say; world war three.

"Trust the plan." "This isn't just another 4 year election!"
 
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The Righterzpen

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@claninja - Dude; believe what you want. You have my permission. It's OK with me; really it is!

God is the one who controls salvation. How accurate or not what you believe is beyond my pay grade.
 
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claninja

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@claninja - Dude; believe what you want. You have my permission. It's OK with me; really it is!

God is the one who controls salvation. How accurate or not what you believe is beyond my pay grade.


Thankfully, its not our belief in eschatology, of which there are too many interpretations to count, that saves us. There is one foundation, and that is Christ. How we build on this foundation does not save us, but will be tested, and either rewarded or burned up.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

At least we can find agreement in the good news that came from the 1st advent, when God dwelt among men in the flesh, died, rose again, and ascended to heaven to save His people and give them eternal life in Him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.


 
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eclipsenow

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...UT; what better way to address a bunch of issues (like the energy crisis, pollution, the loss of birds, bees, frogs, farm land, and wilderness ecosystems) by creating a pandemic (or more likely a series of pandemics) to kill off the human population.

Incorrect!
I=PAT = Environmental IMPACT = Population * Affluence (consumption) * TECHNOLOGY!

That means that yes - population can be a multiplier of environmental harm. But so can using the wrong technology. If we use the RIGHT technology I'm convinced that a world of 10 or 12 billion living a first world lifestyle is not only possible, but can be beautiful and environmentally sustainable as well. Here is my list of top solutions that can be gradually implemented over time to radically reform our environmental impact.
Solutions

This earth was never created to be endlessly sustainable. This is why the Christian's hope is not in this life
Well - not forever - but I can see hundreds of millions of years of energy in uranium from seawater (which is topped up by continental drift + erosion) and maybe a quadrillion human beings living in O'Neil cylinder habitats in a Dyson Swarm around the sun if the Lord gives us the time! There is no single resource due to run out before we get access to space which can be self-sustaining as we mine through the asteroid belt, planets, and even the sun. (Google Starlifting = big mirrors pointing back down at the sun and super-agitating stuff off it that we gather up and use for resources. Also, if we ever shrunk our sun down a bit it might conserve fuel and last a TRILLION years.)
But again - I'm a Christian - and this all depends on how big God wants his kingdom to be.

Now obviously there are other people who have this knowledge who use it for destructive purposes. Trump keeps calling this "the China virus"; yet if it really was "naturally occurring" than why would it be "the China virus"
Umm, there's no logic here. Why WOULDN'T a natural virus occur where there are vastly more disease vectors for it to occur - like wet markets? Try asking a disease expert why we don't get as many viruses jumping species in the hospital-clean abattoirs and cling-wrapped and refrigerated food systems of the West. You haven't even hand-waved away the epidemiological realities. This is a complete fail!

...when it "naturally" could have originated anywhere?
It's called disease vectors. Look it up.

(Which I believe it has multiple origin points.
Science doesn't care what you believe. The actual experts in this don't care what you believe - I only care that you're insulting those Christians working in vaccine production that are doing so from pure hearts to try and save tens of millions of lives and get the global economy going again!

Gain of function research has been done (particularly on coronaviruses) globally for at least the past 15 years.
So what? Every man woman and child and their dog knows this just by watching the news! There are LOTS of corona-viruses.

Scientists also know this thing has RNA sequences (it's spike protein furin cleavage site) in it that don't exist in any other bat coronavirus. It cleaves best to human ACE 2 receptors than it cleaves to any other species' ACE 2 receptors. And that aspect of it supposedly comes from a bat virus? Well, that type of mutation does not happen naturally. Natural mutation swaps out a nucleotide here or there; not whole RNA sequences; (which is what you have in this case).
I love assertions without peer-reviewed references - lets me know exactly what kind of internet-person I'm dealing with! ;-)

First is that the economic stimulus bill for the coronavirus relief package began its journey through the US congress in January of 2019.
Evidence please?

Second is that certain medical companies have requisitions for Covid 19 tests that were ordered in like July or August of 2019.
Evidence please - oh and it's got to be THIS corona-virus cars Cov 2, not one of the other ones they've been fighting for years. Because that wouldn't be evidence for prior knowledge of this one would it! ;-) Tell me you grok that. Don't show us purchase requisitions for MERS or SARS equipment and screech "Look - they KNEW it was coming!" ;-)

(Conspiracy theorists just love to insert inappropriate and irrelevant data into their narratives. It's called padding the story!)

Then we have the circumstantial evidence that global governments knew what this was when it surfaced. Bureaucracies run on inertia. They don't do something about anything until it becomes such a big issue that they can't ignore it. The world didn't do that with this thing though. As soon as it "got out of" China, the world went into lock down. The reason I think they did that is because they feared it was going to be far more obviously deadly than what we currently know concerning it's (generally accepted) initial respiratory symptoms.
Are you kidding? Are you writing from a shellshocked sluggish American perspective or what? Apart from those Asian countries that had prior experience with SARS, most countries reacted far too slowly. Especially the USA! If you're going by your own standards of 'reacting' then don't - Trump's impotent and lethargic response is called "The Missing 6 weeks" will be studied by experts for decades about what NOT to do. This is one of the worst mistakes America has made since the invasion of Iraq on trumped up charges of WMDs. Experts will study it and tutt tutt and shake their heads for centuries to come!
The missing six weeks: how Trump failed the biggest test of his life

Indeed, I was doing the exponential math on Australia's early outbreak and starting to freak out that my government were going to be as science denying and recalcitrant as Trump's. But just before it took off we locked down. Hard. We killed it. New South Wales had 10 glorious days with no cases. But it's been growing again - and yesterday Sydney had 11 cases. It's taking off again! We'll be going into lockdown soon at that rate.

(We really don't want American numbers of this thing!)

Now the thing we still don't know concerning herd immunity; is how many people have actually had it. We don't know this because some people who were infected don't have antibodies specifically for it. (They may have coronavirus antibodies; but does exposure to previous coronaviruses actually help immunity to this one? (That is unclear too.) Also coronavirus antibody levels drop to "undetectable" eventually anyways.
From what I know of it - agreed. But this doesn't prove anything about your argument.

When the serological reports came out from various areas where outbreaks occurred; (and this was back in May) the estimated percent of people who'd had it was between 8 and 10%. Well, 5 months later that stat hasn't changed. They are still estimating that only about 10% of a given population has been infected. What's up with that?
Rambling - go look at the World Health Data and you'll see that there have been official daily counts and statistical analysis going back months and that the infected tally does actually go up, as does the calculation of what percentage of the population have already had it. But I agree that what I've seen of the science indicates that we don't know enough to be confident about herd immunity.

Yet if the larger agenda of the elites
Elites? Oh here we go. Give me a break.
Basically you have no real evidence above or you'd link to it, and the more I ask you to explain evidence for "The Elites!" the more circular it is going to get and the more time I will have wasted. I have a non-religious friend at work that is always going on about "The Elites being Satanists with a plan for world domination." She doesn't have to believe the bible to be worried that some people might believe a Satanistic version of the bible and try and reenact a futurist reading of Revelation. (I'm Amil.) So everything is "The Elites this" and "The Elites that."

As I said, some people just NEED to see a pattern where there isn't one. It doesn't mean God is not sovereign. It does mean he's left us subject to a world with occasional natural disasters and earthquakes and wars and pandemics - and to us these things are terrifying and random. That's the point of Revelation - to remind us what these Last Days (2000 years since Pentecost and counting) will be like. Random. Uncertain. But that just moves us to trust in the Lord all the more!

Just remember to do that and not give in to the temptation to just invent ANYTHING better than uncertainty. Some of my friends were interviewed on this episode of Compass and deal with the Christian aspects of apocalyptic thinking. But this psychological comment is more relevant here.

"Susan Tanner

We like to know what's going on, and when we don't, that generates uncertainty and anxiety. So apocalyptic thinking can help to relieve that and therefore can be very attractive.

Richard Eckersley

So that's the appeal of fundamentalism generally, not just religious fundamentalism. It simplifies things, it reduces things to black and white certainties about what to do."
COMPASS: Apocalypse Now?
 
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The Righterzpen

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and the more time I will have wasted.

Then why comment if you are convinced you're right, I'm wrong and nothing I link to will convince you otherwise; because you're just "wasting (your) time"?

And MINE at this point!
 
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eclipsenow

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Then why comment if you are convinced you're right, I'm wrong and nothing I link to will convince you otherwise; because you're just "wasting (your) time"?

And MINE at this point!
I'm curious what makes people believe this stuff.

Also - reacting emotionally to the fact that I reject your ideas in no way makes your ideas seem more plausible. In fact it makes these ideas look exactly like what I think they are.

I'll also remind you that you didn't link to anything yet - not since I joined the conversation at least. And before we get into your 'evidence' for the 'elite' - no doubt some 2 hour long boring b-grade youtube production full of story padding with irrelevant cluttered 'data' (facts out of context) and manic paranoia - let me add this reminder of where I think this stuff comes from:-

A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation,[2][3] when other explanations are more probable.[4][5] The term has a negative connotation, implying that the appeal to a conspiracy is based on prejudice or insufficient evidence.[6]

Conspiracy theories resist falsification and are reinforced by circular reasoning: both evidence against the conspiracy and an absence of evidence for it are re-interpreted as evidence of its truth,[6][7] whereby the conspiracy becomes a matter of faith rather than something that can be proved or disproved.[8][9] Research suggests that conspiracist ideation—belief in conspiracy theories—may be psychologically harmful or pathological[10][11] and that it is correlated with psychological projection, paranoia and Machiavellianism.[12] Psychologists attribute finding a conspiracy where there is none to a mental phenomenon called illusory pattern perception.[13][14]

Conspiracy theories once limited to fringe audiences have become commonplace in mass media, emerging as a cultural phenomenon of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.[15][16][17][18]
Conspiracy theory - Wikipedia
 
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BABerean2

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A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation,[2][3] when other explanations are more probable.[4][5] The term has a negative connotation, implying that the appeal to a conspiracy is based on prejudice or insufficient evidence.[6]


If world leaders tell us they are going to use COVID-19 to change the world economy, is it a "theory"?



.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Also - reacting emotionally to the fact that I reject your ideas in no way makes your ideas seem more plausible. In fact it makes these ideas look exactly like what I think they are.

:scratch::scratch::scratch: Why am I suddenly "emotional" for pointing out, based on the condescending way you speak to me, that you obviously come to this conversation with your own biases?

What emotional reaction motivates you to automatically conclude something you'd call a "conspiracy theory" couldn't be true?

I'm curious what makes people believe this stuff.

Why did you believe "The Death of Suburbia" movie?

(And so much so that now you've "researched" all these ways for the earth to not run out of energy; so that billions of people could live the "first world" lifestyle?) All of which sounds like you've been watching too many sci-fi movies to me.

Why are you afraid to face the mortality of the human race? Why are you afraid to face destruction?

I already told you that my conviction to question what we are being told; came out of my experience from Desert Storm. I know a lot of what happened over there was never reported in the media. We were exposed to chemical and biological weapons. I am now 100% service connected through the VA because of that.

But I'm going to sit here and watch you tell me that Iraq never had "weapons of mass destruction" and you will demonstrate to me your bias.

(Wait for it folks!)

So before we discuss what evidence for any of this is out there; I pose you with this question.

Do you believe everything the mainstream news media tells you: and if so; why?
 
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eclipsenow

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If world leaders tell us they are going to use COVID-19 to change the world economy, is it a "theory"?
Ha ha ha - I cheer on Elon Musk when he tries to change the world economy with faster internet via Starlink or Electric Cars. So it depends on what you mean by change the world economy - I for one am looking forward to God's general grace to humanity if a scientist does invent the vaccine.
 
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eclipsenow

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Why did you believe "The Death of Suburbia" movie?
Science, and the reputable oil geologists pointing out how close we are to peak.
However, I'm also impressed by todays' engineers that offer alternative electric car solutions.
My sister-in-law has a Phd in ecocity town planning.
Basically, End of Suburbia asked the right questions but didn't look at the more optimistic solutions out there.

All of which sounds like you've been watching too many sci-fi movies to me.
We could build today's Gen3 reactors with passive safety systems and have enough regular uranium reserves for the next few centuries. By then we might even not need nuclear, as we could have space based solar power stations microwave beaming baseload power back down to earth - or maybe even discovered fusion? But if not, good old fashioned fission breeder reactors can meet our requirements for the next billion years. Breeder reactors eat nuclear waste and get 60 to 90 times the energy out of each bit of uranium. Because they burn nuclear waste, and eliminate the need to use all the diesel in uranium mining and refining, their EROEI (Energy Returned over Energy Invested) or net energy profit is in the THOUSANDS of times the energy out. Breeder reactor physics was proved in the 1950's - it's just nukes are a slow turnover industry and we're still commercialising them. In other words we have already invented the 'forever' machine - with at least hundreds of millions of years of fuel floating in our oceans. Dangle a special pool dongle in a high current area and it will collect all that uranium up for you. There is a history of breeder reactors that worked quite well. Indeed, we have over 400 reactor years experience with them. (Reactors * years of operation.) There are HEAPS of breeder reactors here - but I'll mention a few favourites below.
https://www.world-nuclear.org/infor...-future-generation/fast-neutron-reactors.aspx

EG: The EBR2 ran well, eating nuclear waste, and even ran Fukushima styled power outages and politely refused to melt down.
Experimental Breeder Reactor II - Wikipedia

Russia have run the BN-600 experimental reactor since 1980.
BN-600 reactor - Wikipedia

They just built it's bigger brother, the BN-800 in 2014.
BN-800 reactor - Wikipedia

The UK nearly started to build a version of the IFR called the PRISM reactor. This is a small modular version of the IFR that can be built on an assembly line in big parts that are trucked to site and snapped together like so much lego. PRISM (reactor) - Wikipedia

But as I said - while the physics works - we're still commercialising them. So we can build today's CAP1400's to solve the climate and energy crisis and give us centuries to wait until we commercialise the breeders to mop up all that waste.

Why are you afraid to face the mortality of the human race? Why are you afraid to face destruction?
Because I'm a Christian and love my neighbour. Why would I long for their demise?

I already told you that my conviction to question what we are being told; came out of my experience from Desert Storm. I know a lot of what happened over there was never reported in the media. We were exposed to chemical and biological weapons. I am now 100% service connected through the VA because of that.
I'm sorry. That's awful! But just because the army sanitise what they report back home (or we'd probably NEVER go to war!) does not therefore imply an organised global conspiracy about anything.

But I'm going to sit here and watch you tell me that Iraq never had "weapons of mass destruction" and you will demonstrate to me your bias.
My bias? Is that what you call being open to the most reputable journalistic and historical sources?
Iraq and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia

(Wait for it folks!)
Here we are with the emotional responses again. :oldthumbsup:
Yup - I'm real biased - I'm asking them to check the wiki and whether the source notes are reputable. I guess I'm a terrible person for that? Not so open minded that my brain falls out? :doh:
Iraq and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia

So before we discuss what evidence for any of this is out there; I pose you with this question.
Do you believe everything the mainstream news media tells you: and if so; why?
Oh my goodness - you're trying to lubricate my brain to just 'believe' myths and rumours and innuendo stories spun by story-filling arbitrary data-stuffers? I accept things if reputable sources confirm multiple eyewitness accounts - not some narrative imposed over events that have nothing to do with one another.

So 9/11? No - I'm not a 'troofer' - there is too much sane evidence from multiple sources showing that these planes were hijacked, who by, and we have Osama himself on video just after the first plane went in announcing that there would be more.

And we also have a growing body of knowledge of how conspiracy theories work. "You're a smart person - surely you can see that a 747 jet's wings would have smashed out all those windows on the pentagon?" We know their tactics and psychology. Once you buy the myth that you're an expert in the physics of a plane crash - and that 'common sense' means we are entitled to pretend we're an expert in the physics of a plane crash - we're bought the lie. We're going to buy that book and make them rich and famous! The reality is? The wings of a 747 fold back along the fuselage. Yeah, I know - who woulda thunk it? So that the hole in the side of the Pentagon looks like it could have been made by a missile - not a plane. But hey - it's just one illustration among many of where us average citizens do not get to have a valid opinion on something that is way beyond our experience. It's one example where 'common sense' doesn't work - and we're behaving like entitled fools if we think we're allowed. I'm arguing that wisdom here might be to say "I defer to the expert eyewitness and testimony of those who were actually there - and themselves seem actually sane." I'm arguing that it is a Christian fruit of the spirit to be humble enough, by the renewing of our mind, to realise we are simply not experts in all the required disciplines - and to defer to those who are.

Now why don't you just link to that really gooder-er youtube you've been busting to share - and tell us all what a lovely presenter its got and how you couldn't possibly doubt it because your neighbour's sister's brother in law has a cousin who knows the cleaner who was at a cleaner's party where another janitor said their wife's friend knows the producer who thinks the presenter is a really top bloke? Ya know?
 
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The Righterzpen

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My bias? Is that what you call being open to the most reputable journalistic and historical sources?

Yep, yep. You don't fail to disappoint. You hold fast to your biases.

"reputable journalistic sources" huh? LOL

You want to know what really happed?

Iraq didn't blow up their chemical / biological weapons dump. We did! Now do you know why we blew them up? Because we sold them to him.

But of course all this footage must be faked and conspiracy theory! Right?

Here we are with the emotional responses again. :oldthumbsup:
Yup - I'm real biased - I'm asking them to check the wiki and whether the source notes are reputable. I guess I'm a terrible person for that? Not so open minded that my brain falls out? :doh:

I worked with civilians who cleaned the equipment that was coming back from Desert Storm. Our job was to clean the chemical / biological contaminants off the equipment, as well as residual human remains. One of the supervisors of the civilian command somehow got his hands on a gager counter. We knew the stuff was "hot" because they were sending people like me from random commands because all the civilians were getting sick.

There were "commands" riding around in the desert in large vehicles that looked somewhat like armored vehicles that carry bank deposits. They were chemical weapons detection units. Not sure exactly what service they were (if they were even actually "military"?) They would roll into places in southern Iraq and find everything was dead; including the insects.

6 months sitting in the desert in Saudi Arabia and we didn't hear a peep out of any chemical weapons alarms until the air war started. And than we were told the detectors were malfunctioning.

Yeah... I got a couple of towers in NYC to sell you!

Just in case you need proof that I'm actually a veteran.
IMG_0357.jpeg
 
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eclipsenow

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"reputable journalistic sources" huh? LOL
Well - at least I'm not watching Fox!

Anyway, the conspiracy theory you are currently failing to prove is that the Sars Cov 2 virus that induces the Covid 19 syndrome was weaponised. There are no biomarkers of weaponization on the virus - period.

We only went to the WMD's because you want to raise 'alternative thinking' and cast doubt on the news. Hey - I cast doubt on 'the news' all the time! Fox news denied coronavirus would be serious, and then had to recant. They don't accept the science of climate change and think Donald Trump is a genius! I mean, what the?

So I'm not wasting my time on out of context video clips trying to justify a WMD alternative history conspiracy that has failed to be proved for 17 years and counting. One tinfoil hat at a time, please!

Also, if you can't be bothered to spend 100 words introducing why you think a youtube clip is even credible - then I'm not wasting my time clicking on it.

You want to know what really happed?
That's priceless coming from a conspiracy believer! I didn't even click because it's irrelevant to our discussion about the Corona-virus. I'm also not sure how relevant it is to the Bush administration faking WMD's. If it's evidence that the Bush administration faked the WMD's then I probably already agree with you - but you see - I don't know what we're discussing right now or how it relates to the corona virus?

PS: I only raised 9/11 to show one common psychological ploy that Troofers use to get people in. How the wings fold back along a plane as it collides into a concrete hardened building is counter-intuitive to most - and a great example of why we should trust the experts.

Experts know how this virus spreads.
They know that it has many vectors in the wet markets of China.
They've been warning about it for years.
Hollywood has been warning about it for years with Contagion with Matt Damon almost perfectly predicting this virus.
Vectors.
They're a thing!
 
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