Any scriptural evidence that evangelized Gentiles are to keep the Sabbath?

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helmut

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I took the liberty to highlight where the ten commandments are found in red above in the scriptures you quoted and counted them for you.
In other words, you took the liberty to add to Scripture the counting you consider correct. With this addition, the point is clear, of course.

But I don't speak about the text with added enumerations, I speak about the text as inspired by God.

In post #475 you have an abridged form of the text with another addition (Jewish numbering). How would you react if I accuse you to deny Scripture because you don't accept this addition?
You (or more precisely: we) count ten, the Jews count nine (after a first word, which is no commandment). The RC church almost counts 9 also, using the Jewish numbering, omitting the first word which is no commandment, and then splits the last commandment into two (which is wrong, since this results in Exodus and Deuteronomy having two different "9th commandment"s).

It is clear the text allows different subdivisions, and the only argument you bring for the correctness of our subdivision runs as "if I add our enumeration to the text, the text shows our enumeration is correct". Well, if I add the Jewish enumeration to the text, the text "shows" the Jews are right, so what?

Quite easily because there are ten commandments in God's "ten words" written in Exodus 20:2-17.
We can count 10 commandments, the Jews can count only 9 commandments, and I see no argument why one counting is better than the other. Do you want to say the enumeration is correct, because it leads to 10 commandments?

And what was demonstrated earlier was that your making straw-man arguments that no one is talking about. The Hebrew words used for the English tranaslation of ten commandments (הדברים: עשׂרת) which translates as "ten words" in the English is translated as "ten commandments" because it does not make sense in when translated from Hebrew to English.
Well, it does make sense when translated from Hebrew into German, there are ten words (Worte, not Wörter, you look only at the latter meaning of "words"). If the difference between English and German is so that you cannot use word here, (i.e. the difference in meaning between the two plurals of Wort does not exist in English word), then use another term (saying seems to be a good candidate).

Fact of the matter is that these "Ten words" are "Ten Commandment" written so in the "Ten words" and this is what you deny right?
I simply deny that "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery" is a commandment. And you cannot deny that this can be considered the first of the 10 "words", since the Jews do so.

despite being shown they are there are ten commandments in Exodus 20:2-17
Well, and you "have been shown" that there are only 9 commandments in post #475. Simply showing that an interpretation exists, is no proof it is the only correct one.

To sum up your arguments:
  • If one adds our counting to the text, the text supports our counting.
  • Since our counting say there are 10 commandments, there are ten commandments and any other counting is simply incorrect.
  • Dictionary entries which say "commandment" is a possible (though less frequent) translation of dabar (word) show this must be the only possible translation in Ex 34:28; Deut 4:13; 10:4.
  • When I disregard entries that are certainly influenced be the "10 commandments" tradition (and therefore biased) I am not honest.
  • When I say that our counting is not the only one, but there is a different counting (from the Jews) which also cannot be shown to be incorrect (hence both countings have equal weight), I am disobedient to God.
Sorry, this does not convince me of anything other than that you have difficulties to look on the matter from a neutral position.

And is this really so important that you cannot let it stand as "let anyone count them as he wants, as long as he does not deny a single sentence in Ex 20-2-17"?
 
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helmut

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Of course it is God's law of love which is expressed through faith that has the fruit of obedience to God's ten commandments. God's love is not separate from his law. God's love is expressed through His law. This is already addressed and shown in the scriptures provided in post # 481 linked. What is it you still do not understand?
Underlining added by me.

I do not understand why you limit the law of God just to the 10 commandments. I see no Scriptural evidence that the 10 commandments are more important than the rest of the law, Mt 5:19 speaks against it.

If there are laws of different weight, the commandments confirmed by Jesus (e.g. Lev 19:12) are more important than commandments that He never cited, e.g. the 4th commandment. Or should we think we know better than Jesus?
 
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clefty

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This may have played a part.
good...glad you can see beyond what you have been...perhaps common ground can be found...


You have a tendency to write rather cryptic. I assume "I AM" is a reference to YHWH ... but I feel that I miss a point.
not cryptic at all...again seeing beyond what you have been...I was clear where “I AM” is indeed not only to Him but WHERE He is...the lifestyle there at the PLACE HE IS...where we were at creation and will be again when restored...which clearly is described by the 10 words...

No other god
No image or worship of one
His Name
Honor to parent
No killing
No adultery
No stealing
No lying
No coveting

Did I miss one? Yes the ONLY one established BEFORE SIN while we were in the garden...seventh day rest a day made HOLY where “I AM” THEREFORE on earth as it where He is...His will be done NOT ours...

The ONLY “living oracle” given to all 12 tribes of Israel AND SPECIFICALLY to those NOT of Jacob...is WHY He confirms Sabbath was made for MAN not just Jews or Israel...but those accepting it and remembering it and keeping it Holy ARE His people Israel...given AND ACCEPTING this perpetual sign which was instituted at CREATION when we were MADE IN HIS IMAGE to DO as HE DID/DOES

As to image: There are many opinions about the nature of "image". I don't think it has to do much with "looking alike".
good...which leaves it at BE LIKE...LIVE LIKE...LOVE LIKE...follow Him His Ways and not like our former selves or the ways of the world...

My favorite thought on this point is: We can see in the very verse, what "image" aims at: Man is created as male and female, and thus an image of the God who set "let us create man ...". But lest one things this means several Gods, let him notice that the first use of the word "one" that is not used as enumeration is in Gen 2:24 which states that man and woman are one flesh (same word as in Deut 6:4).
that is secondary teaching appropriate to also debunk the Trinity...

but as Man was created alone first and then Woman...the primary teaching is that he was to live holy pure clean AS HIS CREATOR...where “I AM” and then given a help mate...made from his substance NOT from mud...to help him live this holy pure In His Image seventh day Sabbath resting and refreshed way of life...

All this to say that Sabbath was PRIOR the fall and detour of sin and a day made Holy which HAD WE NOT FALLEN WE WOULD BE KEEPING...BECAUSE we were made in His image to live as He does...where “I AM”

AND NOW...”where I AM ye may be also” and finally FINALLY restored again “on earth as it is in heaven” in a kingdom NOT of this world its times and law...but His Way...times and Law

HalleluYah
 
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Bob S

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Underlining added by me.

I do not understand why you limit the law of God just to the 10 commandments. I see no Scriptural evidence that the 10 commandments are more important than the rest of the law, Mt 6:19 speaks against it.
Did you really mean matt 5:19?

If there are laws of different weight, the commandments confirmed by Jesus (e.g. Lev 19:12) are more important than commandments that He never cited, e.g. the 4th commandment. Or should we think we know better than Jesus?
The love commands found in the book of the law Jesus proclaimed as being the greatest of all commands. Actually there is not one word about loving in the ten commandments. They are all about duty.
 
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clefty

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What Issue do you mean?
I began with “Jews killed” you responded that NOT being a charge leveled at them 20 years later in chapter 22

I countered that at that time the issue was NOT HOW He died but that He ROSE at all...the riot in chapter 23 was between Pharisees and Sadducees on resurrection...His Name NOT even mentioned...but Pharisees having said “we see nothing wrong with this man” Paul his preaching of resurrection...

you think Pharisees would say THAT if Paul WAS teaching/living the Sabbath was abolished “we can eat pig now”? lol

The point which caused the riot was the Lord telling Paul to leave and go the heathens. Either they were upset because Paul called Jesus LORD (YHWH) or because they couldn't stand the thought the Messiah was also for Gentiles.
lol...that TOO...and here you are arguing the SAME...that what was given to Israel at Sinai was JUST FOR JEWS...lol the irony...and NOT for ME that OT

Paul indeed was reminding them of the middle wall of separation JEWS HAD BUILT...and now YOU TOO wish to rebuild it...Paul indeed was pointing out the Jew’s ENMITY towards unclean goyim...which ISRAEL was NOT supposed to have...but a to be a BLESSING a LIGHT...remember those strangers within their gates?

AND you miss that Paul INDEED in chapter 22 reminded them of poor Stephen whom Jews ALSO killed...you remember Stephen right? who DID accuse the Jews of killing Him...and more...Acts 7

Your attempted defense of them makes sense as you ALSO continue with ANOTHER Jewish myth “Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered” a myth SOME Jews began to slander poor Stephen to arouse the people against him...Luke was clear it was FALSE WITNESS as Stephen did NOT teach “Yahushua/Joshua/Yeshu changed the customs Moses delivered” BECAUSE He Himself taught “think NOT that” but here you are peddling the same Jewish false witness fable...despite Titus 1:14

A Jew born in the 20th century was present when Jesus was crucified, so we can accuse him of killing Jesus?
depends...do Germans still pay reparations for alleged crimes their fathers did?

This is blatant anti-semitism, a slap into the face of Jews like Peter and Paul (who warned us not to despise Israel). I coukld even have named Jesus, who is a Jew.
no need to tell a Sabbath keeper a history you seek NOT to revise...Sabbath keeper are WELL aware not ALL branches were cut off...and we are grafted in to MATCH those branches NOT cut off for a lack of faith in Him NOT the temple its sacrifices...you know...IN HIM being NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Greek...with the circumcised hearts and to embrace our “inner Jew”...to be MORE like the Jew Jews had killed...and Stephen...

Not he Jews in Alexandria, Rome, or Antioch at Pisidia.
just like Germans elsewhere actually did NOT carry Nazi cards but actually FOUGHT AGAINST their brothers...hope you defend your countrymen their history more valiantly and accurately than this...

And what dis the "take upon them"? the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
the wife desired the death of her Husband accepts His blood for another reason...rejecting its purification...is WHY those branches were cut off...but NOT all...

Do you really want to say that Jesus, who prayed for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, will take revenge to the descendants almost 200 years (Approx. 40 Generations!) later?
if you are not WITH HIM you are indeed against Him

and the Lord’s Day of Judgement is indeed coming...to separate for Himself a HOLY people for His Name from among the Nations...by the Hope of His people Israel...as on earth will be as it is in Heaven...His will be done...a kingdom NOT of this world...

I don't need dispensationalism for that, I have Scripture (Rom 14:5).
maybe choose a couple days a week to fast and cleanse yourself of some of this MADness that has you see Paul abolishing the Sabbath here...as if it were NOT for you...as if Paul would make a LIAR of the Lord of the Sabbath...

Remember even Yahushua instructed prayers that the Sabbath continue into the future Matt 24:20 He knew it would take more than ONE day to remove all the stones from the temple...but desired the Sabbath be preserved NOT the temple or the even the lives of His people...just prayers the Sabbath still be a day of rest and NOT a day of “run to the hills!!”

Jesus never commanded to keep the Sabbath,
lol...what part of “FOLLOW ME” do you reject?

Do you also now:
worship another god?
Make images and worship them
Blaspheme His name
Dishonor parents
Kill
Commit adultery
Steal
Lie (hmmmm)
Covet
Because He demonstrated these for you and taught to do these?

Or do you do what they teach from Moses’ seat? At least 9/10ths...lol

what commandments did he give us?
included all 10 and MORE and demonstrated it with His life...you know in His Image

Love God above all,
and He demonstrated and taught exactly HOW to love...Love AS I LOVED YOU

Or do you mean with the love of false worship and golden calves...many many wives CLAIM to love their husbands while committing adultery...

love the neighbor as yourself.
again what is your standard of love?...Who is your standard?

even pedophiles claim love of their victim...much self abusing love out here...

but YET AGAIN His example and teaching are the STANDARD by which we love our neighbor ourselves...

I accept His LOVE AS HE LOVE ME WITH which includes a seventh day rest...and give it to myself...and my neighbors...duh

Abide IN HIM you must live AS HE DID...

Because Loving AS HE LOVED US fulfills the law...it’s that simple...a child loved as He loved could understand this...

No. The statement of the law that it is for the people of Israel was not changed.
so why you follow Jewish claims He DID change the customs Moses delivered TO US...the strangers within the gates...adopted INTO grafted INTO...Stephen KNEW when Our Husband gave the living oracles to HIS BRIDE the ekklesia in the wilderness at Mt Sinai she already included those NOT of Jacob...Acts 7:38

And therefore
so you must accept that dietary laws and the Sabbath IS FOR US who claim to be abiding IN HIM as per Acts 15

he refused to visit the Gentiles who tried to invite him, and did not eat with them ...
right as all goyim were considered UNCLEAN despite OT teaching and His example and instruction to go into ALL nations teaching them to OBSERVE ALL I have commanded NOT SOME

sorry, my Bible says otherwise (Acts 10, and chapter 11).
what you ADD to yours maybe...Peter is clear in his interpretations of the vision...it is about REMEMBERING those strangers within thy gates...ready for His Way

and NOT about bacon...or Schweinwurst...or Blutwurst...

Your description of Peter seems to have been true for a time (Gal 2:11-16). But he repented and later supported Paul (Acts 15:7-11).
Paul asked “why do you compel gentiles to live as Jews”? Does NOT mean “we can eat pig now”

Keeping Jesus' commands, yes. But you try to draw me into what we have been warned by the Holy Spirit. Read Galatians.
His Holy Spirit leads us INTO keeping not rejecting His Ways...loving AS He loved is fulfilling the law...as He NEVER loved with Sunday Ham dinners nor taught recipes for it...

Paul wrote to the Celtics

Gal 6:6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


His people know what is good...WHO and what the STANDARD of good is...NOT the good of the Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Catholic or Protestant or Jew...or pagan...but His times and Law...unchanged

and what remains for His people...to remember and DO to establish for ALL nations...JUST as what He did...

and LOVING AS HE LOVED US so fulfilling the Living Oracles He gave to His bride so long ago...and again at the cross...that where “I AM” ye may be also...living as He does...restored to that life prior this detour of sin...
 
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eleos1954

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So are we expected to sojourn to the temple in Jerusalem and bring burnt offerings and other sacrifices?

Even if we try: We can't, there is no temple in Jerusalem, no altar to offer any sacrifices.

So then, why does Isaiah say so? Bible critical persons will say he was simply wrong: This never happened, and as far as future can be predicted it will not happen. I hope no-one here takes this view, I mention it only for completeness' sake. Another view is that it is a prophecy to be fulfilled in the future, perhaps when Jesus returns and the millennium begins. I don't share that view, but I may be incorrect in that (future will tell). In any way, this is nothing about our times.

There is a third view: The temple and offerings should not be taken literally. We know the "third temple" has already been built at the resurrection of Jesus (John 2:19-22) ...

So, if verse 7 is not literally true, but has to be interpreted spiritually (I feel "figuratively" is not the best term for that), why should we take verse 6 literally?

So I reach to the conclusion this is not "evidence in the Bible indicating that evangelized Gentiles are expected to keep the Sabbath", the thing truth seeker has asked for.

You are dismissing the sanctuary in heaven .... the REAL one. Jesus is our HIGH Priest in heaven and ministers from there. The earthly sanctuaries were symbolic of the heavenly one.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You folks always mix up different themes, so I try to sort out:

The Old Covenant was, as the designation indicates, a covenant. Between God and Israel. Other people were outside the covenant (see, e.g. Acts 14:16 for an NT statement on this), so Gentiles were not subject to this covenant. Saying we Gentiles have to keep the covenant either means that we have to become Jews in order to come to Christ (a standpoint firmly rejected in Acts 15), or that a change happened and now Gentiles are required to keep the law of Moses (a standpoint firmly rejected by Paul).

I say that there was no change, and of course Jesus did not abolish the torah. Whether this means that Jews that follow Jesus have to keep the whole Torah I'm not sure, I know that different branches of "messianic Jews" give somewhat different answers to that. This is not a problem I have to solve, it makes no difference for me personally, and no one appointed me as a teacher that should teach about this.

But to say, because I explain that I'm not subject to the law of Mose, I say Jesus abolished the Torah, is twisting my word into something I never said or hinted at.

You did not sort anything out...it is a yes or no answer...and I think you picked "i don't know"?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Did you really mean matt 5:19?


The love commands found in the book of the law Jesus proclaimed as being the greatest of all commands. Actually there is not one word about loing in the ten commandments. They are all about duty.

If you worship idols, do you love God...if you dishonor your parents, you are not showing love to them...if you covet your neighbors wife, you are not showing love to him...if you steal from him, do you love him...get it?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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If you dishonor your parents, you are not showing love to them...if you covet your neighbors wife, you are not showing love to him...get it?
Absolutely , if you don't keep the Sabbath you are not showing God love.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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OK, I repeat my question:

Or are Noachides expected to refrain from eating blood?

In other words: What does Judaism now say about Noachides (Gentiles that obey the rules set up after the flood)?

There is, I believe, no consensus in modern rabbinic Judaism...some say yes, some say no
 
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LoveGodsWord

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In other words, you took the liberty to add to Scripture the counting you consider correct. With this addition, the point is clear, of course

Another words NO! I added nothing. I only highlighted when ever a commandments was given in Exodus 20:2-17. Where there ten commandments that where highlighted in Exodus 20:2-17 that were God's Word not mine? YES/NO?
But I don't speak about the text with added enumerations, I speak about the text as inspired by God.
Not really, you deny that there are ten commandments written in Exodus 20:2-17. Yet they are God's Word all ready shown you in the scriptures you claim are inspired yet you do not believe them Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4.
In post #475 you have an abridged form of the text with another addition (Jewish numbering). How would you react if I accuse you to deny Scripture because you don't accept this addition? You (or more precisely: we) count ten, the Jews count nine (after a first word, which is no commandment). The RC church almost counts 9 also, using the Jewish numbering, omitting the first word which is no commandment, and then splits the last commandment into two (which is wrong, since this results in Exodus and Deuteronomy having two different "9th commandment"s). It is clear the text allows different subdivisions, and the only argument you bring for the correctness of our subdivision runs as "if I add our enumeration to the text, the text shows our enumeration is correct". Well, if I add the Jewish enumeration to the text, the text "shows" the Jews are right, so what?
Not really I simply highlighted every time a commandment was given in Exodus 20:2-17

1. You shall have no other gods before me. v2-3
2. You shall not make to you any graven image or bow down to them... v4-6
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain v7
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... v8-11
5. Honor your father and your mother v12
6. You shall not kill v13
7. You shall not steal v14
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor v15
9. You shall not steal v16
10. You shall not covet... v17

Everyone of those commandments from God can be read in the verse locations in Exodus 20 given for each commandment provided in the list above. They are God's Words not mine. I only pointed to what is already there in Exodus 20:2-17. All I did above was to highlight from Exodus 20:2-17 every time a commandment was given from the scriptures.

As to the Jewish counting of the 10 commandments. Even the JEWS agree that they are not certain about their own numbering of the 10 commandments in Exodus 20:2-17. It is an opinion only. You can read about this from My Jewish Learning here.

Some Jewish Rabbi teaching of Exodus 20:2-17 has the first commandment as...

First commandment; I am the Lord Your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage *Exodus 20:2.

Let me ask you honestly dear friend where is the commandment to do anything in Exodus 20:2? This sentence is preamble to each of the commandments to follow.

My Jewish Learning
"The above are the Jewish division of the Ten Commandments. However, such writers as [the ancient philosopher] Philo, as well as the Jewish Publication Society’s translation of the Bible, the Greek Church Fathers, and most Protestant churches (except the Lutherans), consider the first of the Ten Commandments to be, “I am the Lord Your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me” (verses 2 and 3). That is to say, God’s very existence and God’s relation to Israel in addition to the prohibition of worshiping other gods are seen as belonging together, while the prohibition of idolatry forms the second commandment" (Source).

Your pointing to fallible man made teachings in numbering rather then what is written in the scriptures.
We can count 10 commandments, the Jews can count only 9 commandments, and I see no argument why one counting is better than the other. Do you want to say the enumeration is correct, because it leads to 10 commandments?
You see no argument because you do not want to see an argument. Yet you have been shown from Exodus 20:2-17 that there are ten actual commandments in Exodus 20:2-17 mixed with other wordings. You have also been shown other supporting scripture showing that there are ten commandments in the Hebrew from Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4. Are you seriously going to argue that there is not 10 commandments in Exodus 20:2-17 when they have been pointed directly to you from the scriptures? Anyhow they are God's Word not mine. You are free to believe as you wish.
Well, it does make sense when translated from Hebrew into German, there are ten words (Worte, not Wörter, you look only at the latter meaning of "words"). If the difference between English and German is so that you cannot use word here, (i.e. the difference in meaning between the two plurals of Wort does not exist in English word), then use another term (saying seems to be a good candidate).
We are talking English translations not German.
I simply deny that "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery" is a commandment. And you cannot deny that this can be considered the first of the 10 "words", since the Jews do so.
This is my argument and if this is my argument what are you arguing about?
Well, and you "have been shown" that there are only 9 commandments in post #475. Simply showing that an interpretation exists, is no proof it is the only correct one.
Not really dear friend but there you go with your 9 commandments again when you have been shown there are ten commandments from the scriptures in Exodus 20:2-17. For me I prefer to believe the scriptures not your interpretation of them. You are free to believe as you wish however. We will have to agree to disagree.

more to follow….
 
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LoveGodsWord

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To sum up your arguments:
If one adds our counting to the text, the text supports our counting.
Since our counting say there are 10 commandments, there are ten commandments and any other counting is simply incorrect. Dictionary entries which say "commandment" is a possible (though less frequent) translation of dabar (word) show this must be the only possible translation in Ex 34:28; Deut 4:13; 10:4. When I disregard entries that are certainly influenced be the "10 commandments" tradition (and therefore biased) I am not honest. When I say that our counting is not the only one, but there is a different counting (from the Jews) which also cannot be shown to be incorrect (hence both countings have equal weight), I am disobedient to God.

Well, that is not my argument at all. Here let me help you. If you still do not know my argument there is no need to guess your welcome to ask if your not sure or re-read the posts and scriptures shared with you...

My argument is as follows....

1. There are ten commandments written in Exodus 20:2-17 as shown through the scriptures. These include as pointed out directly and written directly in the scriptures which are God's Word not mine as follows...

1. I am the LORD your God, V.2.
2. You shall have no other gods or any image before me. v3-6
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain v7
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... v8-11
5. Honor your father and your mother v12
6. You shall not kill v13
7. You shall not commit adultery v14
8. You shall not steal v15
9. You shall not bear false witness v16
10. You shall not covet... v17

2. Elsewhere in the bible there are references to these 10 written in *Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4. The Hebrew dictionary here shows that the number ten is used. In the Hebrew it is עשׂר עשׂרה; ‛eśer ‛ăśârâh (H6237) and means accumulation to ten or total ten. This is used in connection with דּבר; dâbâr (H1697) which has many meanings in the Hebrew and means words that are a spoken thing including spoken commandments which is the context of Exodus 20:2-17

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H1697
דּבר; dâbâr daw-bawr' From H1696; a word ; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing ; adverbially a cause: - act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.

Note that the Hebrew word דּבר; dâbâr daw-bawr' From H1696 has many meanings all relating to the spoken or written word beside other uses and it is application and context to which it is applied which gives the English definitions as shown in the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - H1697 above. If we now look at the AV Occurrences דּבר; dâbâr daw-bawr' (H1696) is used 1427 times and applied to 557 words. It is used 9 times and applied to commandment as with application to the written and spoken word of God as shown below.

AV Occurrences דּבר; dâbâr daw-bawr' From H1696; (1427 Instances, 557 Words)
application to “commandment” 9x
commandments (3) Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4
according to the commandment (1) Joshua 8:8
my commandments (1) 1 Samuel 15:11
the commandment (3)1 Samuel 15:13; 2 Samuel 12:9; Daniel 9:23
will be wholly at thy commandment (1) 1 Chronicles 28:21
of the commandment (1) Daniel 9:25

The Hebrew words used for the English translation of ten commandments (הדברים: עשׂרת) which translates from "ten words" in the English is translated as "ten commandments" because it does not make sense in when translated from Hebrew to English. The "ten words" translation does not make any sense because in the English as God's spoken Word in Exodus 20:2-17 are more than 10 words which are given for each law. Each of these 10 laws are ten commandment which are ten sentences or in some cases paragraphs. The Hebrew translation of dabar to the "ten words" is because they are all God's ten words (plural) in the Hebrew this makes sense. He spoke them and wrote them with his own finger *Exodus 20:1-17; Exodus 32:16. Fact of the matter is that these ten words (sentences and paragraphs in English) of God are all commandments ("Thou shalt not"; "You shall not") as shown to you earlier right? Hence the English translation to "Ten commandments" solves the translation problem of from Hebrew to English and from words and sentences and paragraphs and application to context which are the ten laws or commandments given in God's Words in Exodus 20:2-17.

3. These 10 commandments are Gods' LAW, spoken by God and are God's Words spoken in Exodus 20:2-17 and written with the finger of God on two tables of stone *Exodus 32:16

4. In the new covenant the purpose of God's LAW (10 commandments) is to give us the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172

5. If we knowingly break anyone of God’s 10 commandments when God has given us the knowledge of the truth of Gods Word we stand guilty before God of sin *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-31; James 4:17.

6. Sunday worship as a replacement of God’s 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath rest is a teaching and tradition of men that has beenhanded down by the Roman Catholic Church that has lead many to disregards and break God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when bfoken.

7. There is not one scripture in all of God’s Word that says God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments have been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day

8. Love is not separated from God’s law it fulfills its requirements and is expressed through obedience to it through faith in God’s promises and it is why JESUS says on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:3-4; John 14:15; 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 19:10; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14 and if you love me keep my commandments *John 14:15.
And is this really so important that you cannot let it stand as "let anyone count them as he wants, as long as he does not deny a single sentence in Ex 20-2-17"?
Good point something we agree on. If one has been born again to love and the fruit of their faith is obedience to all the ten commandments or words of Exodus 20:2-17 then they show the fruit of faith but if they knowingly continue to break anyone of them as the scriptures teach they stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4 and do not know God and are lying if they claim that they do according to the scriptures *1 John 2:3-4.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
 
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helmut

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not cryptic at all...again seeing beyond what you have been...I was clear where “I AM” is indeed not only to Him but WHERE He is...
I doubt that YHWH points to any place-meaning. "To be" has different meanings, there are languages that uses three different verbs depending on what meaning is used:
  1. Existence, as in "God is" or "The hause is at that place", usually the same verb as in the "my car is" construction, which is "I have a car" in plain English,
  2. Status or quality, as in "The book is red",
  3. Identity, as in "This is the man I saw yesterday".
Hebrew dos not make such distinctions, but the form YHWH seems to be related to the future form of the verb "to be", at least one Bible edition in my bookshelf tells so, and this is explained as "I'll care for you / I'm on your side" or "I will be as I have promised". This does not sound as anything related to place, and other explanation do neither - as the oldest one, the being in the LXX, which is cited in Revelation ("The one who is" in English), and then somewhat corrected, lest one reads the philosopher's God into it, who is unchanging to the point of lifelessness.

Did I miss one? Yes the ONLY one established BEFORE SIN while we were in the garden...seventh day rest a day made HOLY where “I AM” THEREFORE on earth as it where He is...His will be done NOT ours...
The rest of God was created at the creation (it is not said that God was located in Eden when He did so), Heb 4:3-4, but the commandment to hold this day was first revealed in Ex 16, and explicitly declared in the Decalogue. So the fourth commandment is a law to Israel as the other commandments.

that is secondary teaching appropriate to also debunk the Trinity...
I do not want to debunk the trinity (which would mean to debunk Scripture, since the trinity "theory" is a combination and systematization of many Biblical statements), and I don't think my explanation cam be used to that.

but as Man was created alone first and then Woman...
This is no theme in the "first creation report", which shows the origin of heaven and earth - li0terally, there is a word usually used for a genealogy of heaven and earth (Gen 2:4a - this is a "colophon", a summary at the end which had a similar function to a title in our culture). The "second creation report", which gives details about the creation of man (it is obviously a part of the "book of the origin of man", see the colophon at 5:1, which also introduces a genealogy), shows how Eve was created out of Adam, but this is not the focus of Gen 1:26-27.

All this to say that Sabbath was PRIOR the fall
If you mean the sabbatical rest created by God: This was prior to the fall.
If you mean a commandment to keep the sabbath as a special day: This is first revealed in Exodus, this is after the fall.

AND NOW...”where I AM ye may be also” and finally FINALLY restored again “on earth as it is in heaven” in a kingdom NOT of this world its times and law...but His Way...times and Law
The link from "I am" to YHWH is rather weak at this point, the full form (ego eimi) is quite natural in such a sentence. Just look at verses this construction is used by other persons (e.g. John 1:20,27; 3:20; 9:9; or in other books), and you can see it.
 
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helmut

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Did you really mean matt 5:19?
Oh yes, sorry for the type. I'll mend it.

The love commands found in the book of the law Jesus proclaimed as being the greatest of all commands. Actually there is not one word about loing in the ten commandments. They are all about duty.
"loing" seems to be a typo - please explain what you mean.

EDIT: From later postings I see it was "loving" (I first suspected "lying", because of the verse I had posted).
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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If you mean a commandment to keep the sabbath as a special day: This is first revealed in Exodus, this is after the fall.

Did Yeshua say: "Shabbat was made for JEWS, JEWS were not made for Shabbat"?? God made the 7th day Holy in Genesis 2:3...not at Sinai...
 
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klutedavid

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If you worship idols, do you love God...if you dishonor your parents, you are not showing love to them...if you covet your neighbors wife, you are not showing love to him...if you steal from him, do you love him...get it?
So if your neighbor says, 'can you give me a hand'. Giving someone a hand is not one of the nine or ten commandments. Therefore you can reply to your neighbor, 'I don't have time to give you a hand'.
 
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klutedavid

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Did Yeshua say: "Shabbat was made for JEWS, JEWS were not made for Shabbat"?? God made the 7th day Holy in Genesis 2:3...not at Sinai...
That may be true but Genesis 2:3 is not written law. The Sabbath in Exodus 20 is written law given to the Jews at Mt Sinai.
 
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helmut

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I began with “Jews killed” you responded that NOT being a charge leveled at them 20 years later in chapter 22

I countered that at that time the issue was NOT HOW He died but that He ROSE at all...the riot in chapter 23 was between Pharisees and Sadducees on resurrection...
I did not speak about the discussion between Pharisees and Sadducees, In said it was chapter 22, or to be precise now: Acts 22:17-23. Though the name of Jesus is not mentioned there, text and context suggest the "Lord" in V.19 is not just God, but Jesus.

You seem not to understand what I have written. Paul made no charge in his speech in Acts 22 to the people of Jerusalem. A generation later it was inappropriate to tell them they were guilty of the crucifixion of Jesus. So, this was my point, it is definitely inappropriate 40 generations later to do so.

lol...that TOO...and here you are arguing the SAME...that what was given to Israel at Sinai was JUST FOR JEWS...lol the irony...and NOT for ME that OT
It is Paul who says the law is for Israel, Rm 9:4; Mose says the same, e.g. Deut 4:5-8; 18:14.

The Messiah is no law, and He is not special to Israel.

Paul indeed was reminding them of the middle wall of separation JEWS HAD BUILT...
What was the nature of this wall? The one who did not get circumcised and kept all laws of Mose had no entrance to God. Do you really mean this is my position? Re-erecting the wall is a figure for imposing the law on Gentiles (Gal 2:18, see 2:11ff for the context). Who is the one who wants Gentiles to keep the law and thus erects a wall? Certainly no me.

Your attempted defense of them makes sense as you ALSO continue with ANOTHER Jewish myth “Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered”
Well, I always said that Jesus did not change the law, he did not even change it in that is was stretched to other people that Israel.

depends...do Germans still pay reparations for alleged crimes their fathers did?
Do you mean the alleged crimes in World War I? The paying for them was interrupted for 1932 (as a part of the Hoover moratorium), and before this year ended the paying was cancelled altogether. It is a Nazi myth hat Hitler stopped paying for them, as I have said, the latest payments were in 1931.

Or do you want to say that the Holocaust crimes and other atrocities are only alleged, and no real crimes?

As to the core of your question: Giving money as a compensation (giving a rent to the widow of a victim, or to people forced to work without payment) is quite different from saying "You, Helmut, killed Jews", which would be the parallel to what you have said.

just like Germans elsewhere actually did NOT carry Nazi cards but actually FOUGHT AGAINST their brothers...hope you defend your countrymen their history more valiantly and accurately than this...
This is an oversimplification. The Nazis had sympathizers among Germans abroad (e.g. in south-west Africa, which is now Namibia, this lasted even after 1945). The ones who fled from Nazi Germany fought against the Nazis (usually not in the military, for they were looked on with suspicion). As to other Germans, things are more complicated as you say.

if you are not WITH HIM you are indeed against Him
I do not deny that, but this is another matter than blaming Jews of out time for the crucifixion.

and the Lord’s Day of Judgement is indeed coming...to separate for Himself a HOLY people for His Name from among the Nations...by the Hope of His people Israel...as on earth will be as it is in Heaven...His will be done...a kingdom NOT of this world...

Remember even Yahushua instructed prayers that the Sabbath continue into the future Matt 24:20
There are several postings here that explain why this conclusion is wrong.

lol...what part of “FOLLOW ME” do you reject?
You are certainly not the one I would confess my sins to.

And "follow me" is always coupled with a reference to His death ("take up your cross" or the like). So following Hiom means readiness o suffer or even die for Him. This may even be the opposite of keeping the law (Gal 5:11; 6:12).

Do you also now:
worship another god?
No, because ofEph 5:5.

Make images and worship them
No, because of 1.John 5:21.

Blaspheme His name
No, because of Col 3:8.

Dishonor parents
Kill
Commit adultery
Steal
Lie (hmmmm)
No, because of Mk 10:19.

No, because of Rom 13:9.

Disclaimer: I fell into such sind (and may fall into them in the future), but I never said or thought it ok to do so.

Because He demonstrated these for you and taught to do these?
Who is "He"? Do you hint at Jesus having committed any sin in the list you posted?

Or do you do what they teach from Moses’ seat? At least 9/10ths...lol
I do according to the NT, which is also the key to understand the OT spiritually.

included all 10 and MORE and demonstrated it with His life...you know in His Image
There is no single verse in the NT where Jesus taught to keep the sabbath.

Or do you mean with the love of false worship and golden calves...many many wives CLAIM to love their husbands while committing adultery...
There is a word in Greek for what you do now, depending on translation it is "slandering" or "blaspheming".

again what is your standard of love?...Who is your standard?
My standard is the one who said
Mt 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Abide IN HIM you must live AS HE DID...
So, you certainly don't live in a house, since He choose to have no house of His own, Lk 9:58. Or are you a hypocrite that teaches other people to live AS HE DID (whith capitals, thus demanding every little detail to be identical), but do not live as He did in all points?

I'm certainly sure you will not be crucified as He was - you had the chance to go to ISIS territory to achieve this, you obviously didn't.

You draw a line between those aspects of Jesus' life you want to imitate and those you will not copy. I suppose you have good reasons for that that cannot be criticized. But then you should not rush forward to accuse those who draw the line in a somewhat different way (having scriptural reasons for this) that they do not follow Jesus.

so why you follow Jewish claims He DID change the customs Moses delivered TO US...
The "US" in your sentence are the Jews. I do not say Jesus altered the law (as to "customs", one may ask whether they meant orally traditions, which claimed to be from Mose but weren't), and (contrary to you) I also refute the view that He changed the scope of the law.

Stephen KNEW when Our Husband gave the living oracles to HIS BRIDE the ekklesia in the wilderness at Mt Sinai she already included those NOT of Jacob...Acts 7:38
A Jew calling the Israelites on Sinai "our" fathers (the "our" includes the people he speaks to!) is the proof that (future) Gentiles were included? What kind o9f logic is this?

right as all goyim were considered UNCLEAN despite OT teaching and His example and instruction to go into ALL nations teaching them to OBSERVE ALL I have commanded NOT SOME

Peter is clear in his interpretations of the vision...it is about REMEMBERING those strangers within thy gates...ready for His Way
Peter spoke about "remebering"? Well, he cited the vision as a justification for eating with unclean Gentiles, a fact he did not deny. Read Acts 11 if you doubt that.

and NOT about bacon...or Schweinwurst...or Blutwurst...
There is no word "Schweinwurst" - I understand your English better than your German.

And as to Blutwurst - do you want to contradict Acts 15:20?

Paul asked “why do you compel gentiles to live as Jews”? Does NOT mean “we can eat pig now”
So, what did Jesus say:
Mk 7:18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Do you mean Paul differed from Jesus in that point?

Paul wrote to the Celtics
No. Iconium, Lystra and Derbe were in Galatia, so the inhabitants were called "Galatians", but they were no Galatic-speaking people, hence no "Celtics". For comparison: You cannot call a person red Indian just because he is an American.

Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
So you should not judge others, judge and prove yourself. If you keep the Sabbath, that is OK, if another one doesn't, that is not your business.

His people know what is good...
So do I.
 
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helmut

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You are dismissing the sanctuary in heaven ....
I do not. I just draw the consequences from taken the cited passage literal.

It rather seems you "dismiss" the heavenly rest, for you insist on the Sabbath taken literally.
 
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helmut

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You did not sort anything out...it is a yes or no answer...and I think you picked "i don't know"?
Jesus preached and kept the Torah.

What he did not preach was: Gentiles have to keep the Torah.

Have I been so unclear about that? Sorry.
 
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