Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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Timtofly

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Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
What does this have to do with a body?
 
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Timtofly

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Sorry, but this is simply wrong. We do have a spirit body of some sort: when our spirit man leaves our body, it is not like a formless glob! It still looks like US. So it is a spirit body of some kind. But it is NOT our resurrection body. The church will get resurrection bodies at the rapture.

In the same way, the preincarnate Jesus had a body that Moses and Abraham SAW. But then He got a human body and will have it forever.
The spirit has always been with God. You are talking about a formless soul. Nope, the soul goes from a corruptible body to an incorruptible. What happens at the rapture is the robe of white. That is not the body, nor a "body". The robe is the spirit of light. God is a spirit of light. Adam was a spirit of light. The sons of God are spirits of light. Moses and Elijah had an incorruptible body, but the transfiguration was a spirit of light as in a robe of light that wrapped around the body of Jesus. Before the Cross it was still a soul with form; a Ghost. Not glorified. (Jesus could show us pre-cross, because Jesus was 3 parts God and 3 parts Man. He just did not go around all the time in a robe of white light.) Sunday morning in Ghost form, Jesus looked like Himself, but no physical substance. Mary could not touch the Ghost form of Jesus. The corruptible body could not enter Paradise nor the soul before the Cross. On Sunday Jesus and the OT believers ascended after leaving Mary in the Garden.

Now all OT and those dead in Christ for the last 1990 years have incorruptible bodies enjoying Paradise, but not Glorified. The final step is the Second Coming and rapture where the robe, the glorified spirit joins the incorruptible body. John in the 5th seal said all in Paradise, under the alter, the church, only got robes, so the souls were already there in incorruptible bodies. John does not use the same terminology as Paul: incorruptible and immortality. And John was not writing to Corinth and Thessalonica.

One can only guess at why Paul thought there were two aspects of change. But the church can only be glorified as a whole. And we know that the Cross allowed one change, because the OT went from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. One place was in sheol and the other heaven. But it only happened after Jesus grew up in a human body and died on the Cross. So the OT believers had to wait to get their incorruptible bodies until after Jesus had his physical body and became the physical Lamb. If you think there was no bodily resurrection and change at the Cross are you not missing the whole point of having an incorruptible body free of death and sin? What other body could enter Paradise? Why could not the soul enter before the Cross? Jesus other than Moses and Elijah had to be the firstfruits. The thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day. The others had bodies but not yet ascended. The thief was the first convert who died post Cross. He immediately entered Paradise with a changed incorruptible body.

Immortality is not just the soul, who we are. It is our spirit that is always in God's presence, because it is a robe of light. Conversely a demon is a spirit with no more light who leaves heaven and looks for a human to control. The reprobate condition of a soul living on earth, produces a demon void of light. Those people will be removed from the Lamb's book of life at the GWT. Their soul and demon (spirit) cast into the lake of fire. Can a spirit and soul choose God at the GWT? Is that where some may go into everlasting righteousness? I doubt they will be glorified, because they missed that event. But even those beheaded in the 42 months of Satan go into life everlasting after the 1000 years. They also missed the glorification of the church. If these have been granted a stay from the second death, they have incorruptible bodies. They are without sin and cannot die. Can anyone give a better definition of an incorruptible body?

Now about Greek mortal and immortal. The difference to them was being God or not being God. It is really not about living forever. An incorruptible body in the Bible covers that. But I think Paul was pointing out that at the rapture we will be Gods. The robe of white, the glorification process is what immortality is. Now the Greeks considered immortal to be both eternal and Godlike. That is Satan's terminology. I would prefer glorified instead of immortality, but the Greeks should understand. Paul was writing to Greeks and it is what we get. Salvation is a change in direction more than a change of soul, body, and spirit. It is the mind that changes direction from heading towards death to now heading towards life and God's will. If one does not accept Salvation this body will die, and not be changed. The spirit may be demonized beyond hope. The soul and demon will be cast into the lake of fire, the death of spirit, and eternal separation from God. The soul never dies. What dies is the physical and spiritual part of the soul. That covers 2 deaths. Where is it mentioned any where a third death?
 
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Timtofly

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Exactly, it is Premillers who are obsessed with 1 chapter - Rev 20. Their cry is "what saith Rev 20." That is the Premil mantra. Premil has only got one string in their guitar. That is why every Bible student should reject it. Amils on the other hand embrace the full gamut of Scripture which shows that sin, death, decay, Satan and the wicked are destroyed at the second coming.
Amill do not embrace the point of 1000 years, so no, not all of Scripture. They deny it and call a literal 1000 years a symbol. Except normally a symbol works in the opposite direction. A symbol can represent a literal fact. How can a literal fact symbolize a symbol?
 
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iamlamad

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Strong and mighty are 2 different things. You are avoiding the issue by the way. You have to. This text forbids Premil.
Sorry, but the same Greek word translated both ways.
What you are missing; premil is TRUTH. All else is a tangent off from truth.
 
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iamlamad

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The spirit has always been with God. You are talking about a formless soul. Nope, the soul goes from a corruptible body to an incorruptible. What happens at the rapture is the robe of white. That is not the body, nor a "body". The robe is the spirit of light. God is a spirit of light. Adam was a spirit of light. The sons of God are spirits of light. Moses and Elijah had an incorruptible body, but the transfiguration was a spirit of light as in a robe of light that wrapped around the body of Jesus. Before the Cross it was still a soul with form; a Ghost. Not glorified. (Jesus could show us pre-cross, because Jesus was 3 parts God and 3 parts Man. He just did not go around all the time in a robe of white light.) Sunday morning in Ghost form, Jesus looked like Himself, but no physical substance. Mary could not touch the Ghost form of Jesus. The corruptible body could not enter Paradise nor the soul before the Cross. On Sunday Jesus and the OT believers ascended after leaving Mary in the Garden.

Now all OT and those dead in Christ for the last 1990 years have incorruptible bodies enjoying Paradise, but not Glorified. The final step is the Second Coming and rapture where the robe, the glorified spirit joins the incorruptible body. John in the 5th seal said all in Paradise, under the alter, the church, only got robes, so the souls were already there in incorruptible bodies. John does not use the same terminology as Paul: incorruptible and immortality. And John was not writing to Corinth and Thessalonica.

One can only guess at why Paul thought there were two aspects of change. But the church can only be glorified as a whole. And we know that the Cross allowed one change, because the OT went from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. One place was in sheol and the other heaven. But it only happened after Jesus grew up in a human body and died on the Cross. So the OT believers had to wait to get their incorruptible bodies until after Jesus had his physical body and became the physical Lamb. If you think there was no bodily resurrection and change at the Cross are you not missing the whole point of having an incorruptible body free of death and sin? What other body could enter Paradise? Why could not the soul enter before the Cross? Jesus other than Moses and Elijah had to be the firstfruits. The thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day. The others had bodies but not yet ascended. The thief was the first convert who died post Cross. He immediately entered Paradise with a changed incorruptible body.

Immortality is not just the soul, who we are. It is our spirit that is always in God's presence, because it is a robe of light. Conversely a demon is a spirit with no more light who leaves heaven and looks for a human to control. The reprobate condition of a soul living on earth, produces a demon void of light. Those people will be removed from the Lamb's book of life at the GWT. Their soul and demon (spirit) cast into the lake of fire. Can a spirit and soul choose God at the GWT? Is that where some may go into everlasting righteousness? I doubt they will be glorified, because they missed that event. But even those beheaded in the 42 months of Satan go into life everlasting after the 1000 years. They also missed the glorification of the church. If these have been granted a stay from the second death, they have incorruptible bodies. They are without sin and cannot die. Can anyone give a better definition of an incorruptible body?

Now about Greek mortal and immortal. The difference to them was being God or not being God. It is really not about living forever. An incorruptible body in the Bible covers that. But I think Paul was pointing out that at the rapture we will be Gods. The robe of white, the glorification process is what immortality is. Now the Greeks considered immortal to be both eternal and Godlike. That is Satan's terminology. I would prefer glorified instead of immortality, but the Greeks should understand. Paul was writing to Greeks and it is what we get. Salvation is a change in direction more than a change of soul, body, and spirit. It is the mind that changes direction from heading towards death to now heading towards life and God's will. If one does not accept Salvation this body will die, and not be changed. The spirit may be demonized beyond hope. The soul and demon will be cast into the lake of fire, the death of spirit, and eternal separation from God. The soul never dies. What dies is the physical and spiritual part of the soul. That covers 2 deaths. Where is it mentioned any where a third death?

The spirit has always been with God. Sorry, wrong with your first sentence! Our human spirits are the real "us." We possess a sou - our mind will, and emotions - and we live in a physical body.

Nope, the soul goes from a corruptible body to an incorruptible. Wrong again. you need Paul's updated NT version.

1 Thes. 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are a three part being just as God is a three part being; we are created in HIS image and after HIS likeness. The spirit and soul are tied very tightly together.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Our spirit is our inward man: When God talks to us, He talks to our spirit.

Prov. 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly. Again, our spirit is our real man - the real "us."

"Resurrection" by its very definition is the rising of the physical body. Why? Because our physical body is what dies. When the heart stops beating, the spirit with the soul just slip right out, easier than taking off an overcoat.

What happens at the rapture is the robe of white. That is not the body, nor a "body". The robe is the spirit of light. God is a spirit of light. Adam was a spirit of light. The sons of God are spirits of light. Moses and Elijah had an incorruptible body, but the transfiguration was a spirit of light as in a robe of light that wrapped around the body of Jesus. This is all human imagination. Can we please just believe what is written?


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood
[this is our physical body!] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [our body is corrupt] inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep
[die a physical death], but we shall all be changed [Speaking of our physical body],
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible
[this happens first], and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul is talking about the human physical body here.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.1 Cor 15:


It is or will be our PHYSICAL BODY that is changed or resurrected if Jesus taries His coming. What change will take place in our mind, emotions, thinking - remains to be seen, for God has not told us. So what happens at the rapture is the physical BODY is changed - into a body that will never die. How did Paul end this passage?

53 For this corruptible [body] must put on incorruption, and this mortal [body] must put on immortality [our new body will be flesh and bone - not flesh and blood].

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[what part of the human dies? The corruptable body.]

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[what part of the human is put in the grave? The body.]

What part of the human is put in the grave? Of course the BODY.

Jesus was 3 parts God and 3 parts Man. This is fallacy. Jesus was GOD (the 2nd part of the trinity) wearing a human body just like ours. In other words, He was spirit (the second part of the trinity), He had a soul (mind, will, emotions), and He lived in a physical body just like ours.
(out of time for now)
 
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iamlamad

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The spirit has always been with God. You are talking about a formless soul. Nope, the soul goes from a corruptible body to an incorruptible. What happens at the rapture is the robe of white. That is not the body, nor a "body". The robe is the spirit of light. God is a spirit of light. Adam was a spirit of light. The sons of God are spirits of light. Moses and Elijah had an incorruptible body, but the transfiguration was a spirit of light as in a robe of light that wrapped around the body of Jesus. Before the Cross it was still a soul with form; a Ghost. Not glorified. (Jesus could show us pre-cross, because Jesus was 3 parts God and 3 parts Man. He just did not go around all the time in a robe of white light.) Sunday morning in Ghost form, Jesus looked like Himself, but no physical substance. Mary could not touch the Ghost form of Jesus. The corruptible body could not enter Paradise nor the soul before the Cross. On Sunday Jesus and the OT believers ascended after leaving Mary in the Garden.

Now all OT and those dead in Christ for the last 1990 years have incorruptible bodies enjoying Paradise, but not Glorified. The final step is the Second Coming and rapture where the robe, the glorified spirit joins the incorruptible body. John in the 5th seal said all in Paradise, under the alter, the church, only got robes, so the souls were already there in incorruptible bodies. John does not use the same terminology as Paul: incorruptible and immortality. And John was not writing to Corinth and Thessalonica.

One can only guess at why Paul thought there were two aspects of change. But the church can only be glorified as a whole. And we know that the Cross allowed one change, because the OT went from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. One place was in sheol and the other heaven. But it only happened after Jesus grew up in a human body and died on the Cross. So the OT believers had to wait to get their incorruptible bodies until after Jesus had his physical body and became the physical Lamb. If you think there was no bodily resurrection and change at the Cross are you not missing the whole point of having an incorruptible body free of death and sin? What other body could enter Paradise? Why could not the soul enter before the Cross? Jesus other than Moses and Elijah had to be the firstfruits. The thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day. The others had bodies but not yet ascended. The thief was the first convert who died post Cross. He immediately entered Paradise with a changed incorruptible body.

Immortality is not just the soul, who we are. It is our spirit that is always in God's presence, because it is a robe of light. Conversely a demon is a spirit with no more light who leaves heaven and looks for a human to control. The reprobate condition of a soul living on earth, produces a demon void of light. Those people will be removed from the Lamb's book of life at the GWT. Their soul and demon (spirit) cast into the lake of fire. Can a spirit and soul choose God at the GWT? Is that where some may go into everlasting righteousness? I doubt they will be glorified, because they missed that event. But even those beheaded in the 42 months of Satan go into life everlasting after the 1000 years. They also missed the glorification of the church. If these have been granted a stay from the second death, they have incorruptible bodies. They are without sin and cannot die. Can anyone give a better definition of an incorruptible body?

Now about Greek mortal and immortal. The difference to them was being God or not being God. It is really not about living forever. An incorruptible body in the Bible covers that. But I think Paul was pointing out that at the rapture we will be Gods. The robe of white, the glorification process is what immortality is. Now the Greeks considered immortal to be both eternal and Godlike. That is Satan's terminology. I would prefer glorified instead of immortality, but the Greeks should understand. Paul was writing to Greeks and it is what we get. Salvation is a change in direction more than a change of soul, body, and spirit. It is the mind that changes direction from heading towards death to now heading towards life and God's will. If one does not accept Salvation this body will die, and not be changed. The spirit may be demonized beyond hope. The soul and demon will be cast into the lake of fire, the death of spirit, and eternal separation from God. The soul never dies. What dies is the physical and spiritual part of the soul. That covers 2 deaths. Where is it mentioned any where a third death?
Mary could not touch the Ghost form of Jesus. The corruptible body could not enter Paradise nor the soul before the Cross. On Sunday Jesus and the OT believers ascended after leaving Mary in the Garden.
Sorry, but that was the resurrected Jesus. She was commanded not to touch Him for He was on His way to heaven. She COULD have touched Him had He allowed her to. It was only SOME Of the OT believers where were raised. If we look in Revelation, probably the elders.

Now all OT and those dead in Christ for the last 1990 years have incorruptible bodies enjoying Paradise, but not Glorified. If you are talking about their spirits, I agree. Their spirit has the same form as their physical body used to have. Their bodies are still in the ground, EXCEPT for those "some" that Jesus raised.

The final step is the Second Coming and rapture where the robe, the glorified spirit joins the incorruptible body. Please define "glorified" spirit, and when it happens. Please explain why you call it a robe. Show scripture.

John in the 5th seal said all in Paradise, under the alter, the church, only got robes, so the souls were already there in incorruptible bodies.
Wow! Perhaps you just don't understand. Yes, the martyrs of the church age are indeed of "the church." They were born again. That explains why they were in heaven rather that in hell. NOT "all in paradise..." only those under the altar. John was describing at the 5th seal ONLY those martyrs under the altar. Since their body was murdered, their SPIRIT with their soul was there in heaven, under the altar. Yes, they were given robes.

Does this mean ONLY MARTYRS get robes? No. I suspect all who die and their spirits go up, get robes when they arrive in heaven. By the way, Human spirits are forever; they are not "corruptable." Human spirits cannot rot or disintegrate. Neither can a human soul, which is not make of anything physical. REmember, the human spirit and soul are tied very tightly together. Where the soul is, there the spirit is - where the spirit is, there the soul is. The spirit has essense and can be seen. How can one SEE a memory or a thought?

Note: the usage of the word "soul" has changed over time. Sometimes the bible uses it for the entire being as in the shipwreck Paul was in: they were called souls, but speaking of the entire being. Sometimes "soul" is used only for the thoughts and emotions of a being. In the OT often "soul" was used for both the spirit and the unseen part of man: his mind, thoughts, memories, etc. Thoughts and emotions are very real, but they have no essence and cannot be seen.

If God allows it, He can open people's eyes to the spirit realm and they can SEE angels or demonic spirits - or even human spirits. My pastor, in a vision, saw his son's spirit leave his body, but saw an angel say "GET BACK IN THERE" and it instantly went back to his son's body. Another time he was demonic spirits come to church with people and saw the demons trying to distract them while he was preaching.

the church can only be glorified as a whole. Then you are saying that when a saved person dies, their spirit is not "glorified;" it is just escorted to heaven as a normal, human spirit.

Paul thought there were two aspects of change. Please explain Ah. Perhaps you mean the spiritual change when one is born again, and then the physical change when our body is changed to immortality.

the Cross allowed one change, because the OT went from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. That is the change of being born again: regeneration of the human spirit - from Adam's DNA to God's DNA.

So the OT believers had to wait to get their incorruptible bodies until after Jesus had his physical body and became the physical Lamb.
You seem to imagine that the OT saints were ALL raised to immortality when Jesus rose - but the scripture tells us many (NOT ALL) were raised. The general resurrection of the OT saints is in our future. I am convinced it will be on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week - when John tells us of that worst ever earthquake. When God pulls together the "dust" that once made up the bodies of those saints before the flood, it is going to cause a tremendous quake: some particles of "dust" from one body just may be thousands of miles from another particle, but in one instant God will pull them together and reform that body. It will end up shaking the mountains down into the ground.

If you think there was no bodily resurrection and change at the Cross are you not missing the whole point of having an incorruptible body free of death and sin? Sorry, but DEATH happened at the cross; LIFE happened when Jesus rose. But the corruptible bodies of the church will not be changed until the day of the rapture.

Why could not the soul enter before the Cross? Why could not the SPIRIT enter before the cross? (souls come attached to the spirits) "Adam" spirits (before regeneration) were not qualified. Only "born again" (GOD'S DNA) spirits can enter heaven.

He immediately entered Paradise with a changed incorruptible body. The "paradise" the thief entered was also called Abraham's bosom, deep inside the earth. He did not get an incorruptable body. His body DIED on the cross, but at that moment, His spirit with soul left the dead body and descended down into hades, but went to Abraham's Bosom side. Again I remind you, ONLY those OT saints that were raised when Jesus rose got immortal bodies back them. And that was "many," not all. The general resurrection of the OT saints is still ahead of us. But they must wait until AFTER the resurrection of the church.

Immortality is not just the soul, who we are. It is our spirit that is always in God's presence, because it is a robe of light. Again you are mistaken: the human spirit was created by God to leave FOREVER. It will never corrupt and turn into dust. It is only the BODY part of man that will corrupt and turn into dust. Humans - those of the church, will get immortal bodies at the rapture - NOT BEFORE.

It is our spirit that is always in God's presence, because it is a robe of light.
Please find a scripture that calls a human spirit a robe. I want to see it.

Those people will be removed from the Lamb's book of life at the GWT. Again you are mistaken. The moment of conception a new name is ADDED to the book of life. It is a NEW life that never existed before. Their name will REMAIN in the book of life until they reach the age where God will hold them accountable. Then, when they sin, their name is removed. It can be added back ONLY if they are born again. So it is SIN that removes a name. The book of life is EXAMINED for names at the GWT, but names are not removed then.

The reprobate condition of a soul living on earth, produces a demon void of light. Are you saying the PEOPLE - HUMANS - turn into demons? Show us a verse. ALL humans live on earth and SOME get born again; some don't. NONE turn into demons. (Some may ACT like demons!)

Their soul and demon (spirit) cast into the lake of fire.
Say WHAT? NO ONE is cast into the lake of fire yet.

Can a spirit and soul choose God at the GWT? NOT A CHANCE! "choice" is before death, while the human heart still beats. (unless by a miracle someone prays someone back into their bodie after death, so they are given another chance.)

If these have been granted a stay from the second death The ONLY people that are not at the GWT judgement are those who are born again and resurrected into immortality.

Salvation is a change in direction more than a change of soul, body, and spirit.
My friend, you really need to KNOW things before you write. Do you not understand being "born again" or what some call "regeneration?" It is a change in the human spirit: the old "Adam spirit" is put to death (the wages of sin is death) and instantly God creates a NEW human spirit - and you can bet - if spirits have DNA, the new spirit will have GOD'S DNA. ONLY reborn spirits can enter heaven.

Note: there are 3 deaths:
1. Physical death: the heart stops beating
2. Spiritual death; all born in this state due to Adam: born with an Adam spirit.
3. Eternal death: 1 plus 2 = eternal death
 
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Timtofly

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We are a three part being just as God is a three part being; we are created in HIS image and after HIS likeness. The spirit and soul are tied very tightly together.
Personal opinion that contradicts the verses you gave. Spiritual death is separation from our spirit. We do not have a robe of glorification covering us, that we can turn on and off. Our spirit is not dead, it is with God. Unless it is a demon. Demons are not with God, but on earth cast out from God's presence or they are sent to sheol, and cannot come back to earth.
 
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Timtofly

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Again you are mistaken. The moment of conception a new name is ADDED to the book of life. It is a NEW life that never existed before. Their name will REMAIN in the book of life until they reach the age where God will hold them accountable. Then, when they sin, their name is removed. It can be added back ONLY if they are born again. So it is SIN that removes a name. The book of life is EXAMINED for names at the GWT, but names are not removed then.
The Lamb's book of life is still sealed. It cannot be edited (added to or subtracted from) until the 7th seal is opened. It has been sealed since before the world was created in Genesis 1.
 
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Timtofly

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My friend, you really need to KNOW things before you write. Do you not understand being "born again" or what some call "regeneration?" It is a change in the human spirit: the old "Adam spirit" is put to death (the wages of sin is death) and instantly God creates a NEW human spirit - and you can bet - if spirits have DNA, the new spirit will have GOD'S DNA. ONLY reborn spirits can enter heaven.
I know the Word of God. One is not born again into the spiritual until physical death. This physical life is just the working out in the physical the salvation that is eternal. Once dead that work is finished and completed. It does not continue after physical death.
 
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iamlamad

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Personal opinion that contradicts the verses you gave. Spiritual death is separation from our spirit. We do not have a robe of glorification covering us, that we can turn on and off. Our spirit is not dead, it is with God. Unless it is a demon. Demons are not with God, but on earth cast out from God's presence or they are sent to sheol, and cannot come back to earth.
My friend, it seems you have much to learn. Spiritual death is very simple: it is NOT being born again. It is having an Adam spirit inside, and not being regenerated with a NEW spirit, where Paul said, "all things become new."

Since the real US is our spirit man, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be separated from ourself. What separates is the spirit and soul from the body. Our physical body is what turns into dust. The other parts of us, our Spirit and soul are created by God to live forever.

We do not have a robe of glorification covering us, that we can turn on and off. There is no such thing in scripture that I know of. Do you have a verse? Did you not read that we as humans have fallen SHORT of the glory of God? If mankind does get clothed with glory again, it will be at the rapture where we are changed from mortal to immortality.

Our spirit is not dead, it is with God. Scripture please: The truth is, our spirit is the LIFE inside our body. If it was with God, we would be DEAD physically. All humans are BORN with "dead" spirits, meaning, separated from God because of Adam's sin. But God considers babies and children as innocent, so they still get to go to heaven.
 
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iamlamad

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I know the Word of God. One is not born again into the spiritual until physical death. This physical life is just the working out in the physical the salvation that is eternal. Once dead that work is finished and completed. It does not continue after physical death.
My friend, this is simply not truth. Did you not read that if anyone calls on the Lord, they will be "saved." If one believes in their heard that God raised Jesus from the dead, and confesses Jesus as Lord, they will be "saved." Since day one of the church it has been taught that being "saved" is the regeneration of our human spirit.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Ezek 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

(Get this: a new creation: not the body, not the mind, will, emotions, but the SPIRIT is new.)

Jesus to Nicodemus: YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. This means the real US - our spirit - is rebirthed.

1 Pet. 1:23 Since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; (our new spirit man with God's DNA is imperishable.)

The very MOMENT of regeneration (being born again) we leave the kingdom of death, and enter eternal life. For me it was when I was 7 years old. It is like an "aboutface!" WE stop heading for hell, turn around and begin heading for heaven.
 
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iamlamad

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The Lamb's book of life is still sealed. It cannot be edited (added to or subtracted from) until the 7th seal is opened. It has been sealed since before the world was created in Genesis 1.
Did you never read how names are blotted out? It is a LIVING book, not dead. Do you have a scripture to prove this? Or is it just theory?

Why and how is the book of life connected to the 7th seal? Ah! You IMAGINE that book with 7 seals is the book of life. My friend, that is only imagination. The two are NOT connected in any way except both are found in the Word of God.
 
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iamlamad

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Exactly, it is Premillers who are obsessed with 1 chapter - Rev 20. Their cry is "what saith Rev 20." That is the Premil mantra. Premil has only got one string in their guitar. That is why every Bible student should reject it. Amils on the other hand embrace the full gamut of Scripture which shows that sin, death, decay, Satan and the wicked are destroyed at the second coming.
Better to be obsessed than to ignore completely as amil does! ;-)
 
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Timtofly

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All humans are BORN with "dead" spirits, meaning, separated from God because of Adam's sin.
Do you have a verse for this? Genesis 1 does not mention how, but says in the image of God. Physical (incorruptible) body, a spirit, a soul. Soul is God in us. Spirit is the light around us. Genesis 2:7 gives the detail: "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being." Soul is being. We are soul, being, God. We have no spirit in us, because God sent His own Holy Spirit as a replacement. "Whereby all are sealed until the day of redemption."

Adam had spirit, but we do not. Adam died physically and spiritually that day. Adam went from incorruptible flesh to corruptible flesh. Adam lost his spirit, and spirit is not genetic. Spirit is God with us. Better stated as our spirit is with God, now.

We can exist without a spirit. We can exist without an incorruptible body. We cannot exist without a soul. Do you accept annihilation of the soul? Verse?
 
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Timtofly

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The very MOMENT of regeneration (being born again) we leave the kingdom of death, and enter eternal life. For me it was when I was 7 years old. It is like an "aboutface!" WE stop heading for hell, turn around and begin heading for heaven.
I agree. This is not what you stated before. We are not physically changed. Actually nothing changes but our mind, soul. Our soul is dead. Dead physically and spiritually but we do not have an incorruptible body before or after the moment our mind changes. Nor does our spirit immediately pop to life. We still do not have access to our spirit. We have access to God's Spirit. What is glorification if not the full image of God, ie having our spirit joined eternally with our body and soul?
 
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Did you never read how names are blotted out? It is a LIVING book, not dead. Do you have a scripture to prove this? Or is it just theory?

Why and how is the book of life connected to the 7th seal? Ah! You IMAGINE that book with 7 seals is the book of life. My friend, that is only imagination. The two are NOT connected in any way except both are found in the Word of God.
Revelation 17:8
The people living on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life since the founding of the world will be astounded to see the beast that once was, now is not, but is to appear.

Revelation 5 explains it has not been opened. Since when. Revelation 13:8

8 Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world was founded.

This Book of Life is the only sealed book having anything to do with the Atonement. Is was sealed because all are under the Atonement, but not all would accept the Atonement. God is not a respector of humanity when it comes to the Atonement.

If only the Lamb could unseal a book what other book would be sealed before the foundation of the earth, because the Lamb was the Atonement even before creation? Nothing would be more important to God than God's image on earth, the sons of God whom God created. The whole plan of creation revolved around man's redemption. God voted for all, because God wrote all names down and sealed them in this scroll.
 
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iamlamad

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Do you have a verse for this? Genesis 1 does not mention how, but says in the image of God. Physical (incorruptible) body, a spirit, a soul. Soul is God in us. Spirit is the light around us. Genesis 2:7 gives the detail: "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being." Soul is being. We are soul, being, God. We have no spirit in us, because God sent His own Holy Spirit as a replacement. "Whereby all are sealed until the day of redemption."

Adam had spirit, but we do not. Adam died physically and spiritually that day. Adam went from incorruptible flesh to corruptible flesh. Adam lost his spirit, and spirit is not genetic. Spirit is God with us. Better stated as our spirit is with God, now.

We can exist without a spirit. We can exist without an incorruptible body. We cannot exist without a soul. Do you accept annihilation of the soul? Verse?

My friend, if you "do not" have a spirit, then you don't exist. When God created Adam, He created all the material part of the human, but what was lacking? LIFE was lacking. God blew life - the human spirit - into Adam...and it was powerful enough that that one spirit has created billions and billions of other spirits.

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. (pneuma) (Blow, wind, breath)

They did not say "it is a soul." A soul used for mind, will, emotions, etc, cannot be seen. But soul used as a complete person of course can be seen.

Mark 2:8
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Jesus did not perceive this in his soul, for them it would be human knowledge. What happened was God the Holy Spirit passed this information to Jesus human spirit and Jesus was very sensitive to His spirit, which of course was the second part of the triune Godhead. But when Jesus took on the form of a man, He laid aside his "all knowing" attribute to be as a normal man. In all respects He was a man being led by the Holy Spirit, just as we are suppose to be. When God talks to a human, it is spirit to spirit. God does not talk to our soul. We hear him with our spiritual ears.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

He did not say, "receive my soul." It is the human spirit that is the real US, but the spirit always possessed a soul, which is different for every man. No two souls are alike, thinking the same thoughts, having the same mind, and will and emotions.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Jesus did not commend His soul into the Father's hands, it was His SPIRIT - the real He. When He died, His "ghost" or spirit left His body.

Genesis 2:7 gives the detail: "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being." Soul is being. We are soul, being, No, you are mistaken. Breath is pneuma, and it is LIFE. God breathed LIFE into him. He breathed a spirit that was ADam's life. It is SPIRIT that is life and being. Soul goes with the Spirit as the mind and will of that spirit.

We have no spirit in us, because God sent His own Holy Spirit as a replacement. WRONG! With no spirit our body would fall dead. Our human spirit is the real US, and keeps our body alive.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
The Holy Spirit is the seal inside OUR spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The human spirit is the real HIM.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. The spirit is the real US.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? God is the father of our SPIRITS, not our souls.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. When someone receives the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, they will speak in tongues, and it is their SPIRIT MAN praying, not their soul. The tongues bypasses the human mind: it comes from the Spirit man straight to the mouth which speaks. It is the same with prophecy, which is supernatural speaking but in the person's own language. Someone prophesying has no idea what He is saying until it is said, for it comes from the human spirit to the mouth to be spoken out. The soul is idle during these events, like a bystander.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. It is not the soul of the prophet that is subject, for we all know WE control our tongue - our MIND controls what we say. But Paul is saying when someone prophesies, the Holy Spirit does not take that person over and force the words out. He or she can choose to say the prophecy or not. Or say it at the right time.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. The sinner walks by his soul: his mind telling him what to do. But we are to walk in the Spirit, because it is our SPIRIT that was renewed By God. It is up to every believer to renew their minds.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The WAR in every believer is between the flesh and the SPIRIT, because it is our SPIRIT that is reborn, and The Holy Spirit is inside our spirit. Indeed, when Paul speaks of the "flesh" that includes our soul, which includes are memories and emotions that was tied to sin before we were born again - and that part of the human wants to keep right on sinning. We have to renew our mind.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul was sure we have all three parts of the human, spirit, soul and body,

There are more scriptures, but this should be enough to convince even you.

Adam died physically and spiritually that day. I would hope you would get at least one thing right. Adam died SPIRITUALLY - became separated from God - the instant he sinned. He died physically over 900 years later! Remember, to God death is only separation: physical death the spirit separates from the body; spiritual death the human spirit is separated from God. Eternal death is spiritual death that goes on forever.

Adam lost his spirit, and spirit is not genetic. Adam's spirit "died" (spiritual death) or became separated from God, but his spirit did not leave his body until 900 and some years later when his heart stopped.

Spirit is God with us. Better stated as our spirit is with God, now. When one is born again, God puts to death the old human spirit inherited from Adam, and God recreates a new spirit with HIS OWN DNA. We are sons and daughters of God, with His DNA to prove it - but this is only in the spirit. Sadly we must put up with these mortal bodies. They are our present home.

After God creates a NEW human spirit, then He places the seal of the Holy Spirit IN our human spirit.

We can exist without a spirit. Wrong! We ARE our spirit: the human spirit is the real US. God created human spirits to live as long as he lives. Our spirit is US and is our LIFE and BEING.

We cannot exist without a soul. There are people who doctors have kept alive - that is the heart still beating - when "life" has left the body. The brain quit working. Can we exist without memories? I think so. Old people seem to lose much of their memory. Can we exist without a will? Some people seem not to be able to make a decision, so perhaps we can. However, it is a silly argument, since the soul is tied SO TIGHTLY to the Spirit that only the Word of God can separate the two. When the spirit leaves a body, after the heart stops, the soul ALWAYS goes with the spirit. There is no such thing as "soul sleep." MANY people have left their body for a time during physical traumas, and their minds kept right on thinking. But some discovered they could not communicate with the living no matter how loud they spoke: they were in a different realm. Souls are forever just as spirits are.
 
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iamlamad

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Revelation 17:8
The people living on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life since the founding of the world will be astounded to see the beast that once was, now is not, but is to appear.

Revelation 5 explains it has not been opened. Since when. Revelation 13:8

8 Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world was founded.

This Book of Life is the only sealed book having anything to do with the Atonement. Is was sealed because all are under the Atonement, but not all would accept the Atonement. God is not a respector of humanity when it comes to the Atonement.

If only the Lamb could unseal a book what other book would be sealed before the foundation of the earth, because the Lamb was the Atonement even before creation? Nothing would be more important to God than God's image on earth, the sons of God whom God created. The whole plan of creation revolved around man's redemption. God voted for all, because God wrote all names down and sealed them in this scroll.

The people living on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life since the founding of the world will be astounded to see the beast that once was, now is not, but is to appear. True: they are sinners with NO spiritual discernment.

Revelation 5 explains it has not been opened. WHAT has not been opened? The book with 7 seals? You don't understand John's Chronology. That was a vision out of John's past: a time while Jesus was on earth, then under the earth, then rose from the dead, then ascended, then got the book. So of course at the moment Jesus got the book, no seals were opened. But He got that book around 32 AD, as soon as He ascended, and immediately started opening seals. WHY? Because the seals MUST BE OPENED so that the BOOK can be OPENED so that Satan can be kicked off His throne. Rev. 6 explains which seals have been opened and which are future to us today. Just so you know, the first 5 seals were opened long ago, but the 6th seal is future: the start of the Day of the Lord.

Anyway, sending out the church with the gospel would have been ILLEGAL until SOMEONE could open that first seal.

This Book of Life is the only sealed book having anything to do with the Atonement. Is was sealed because all are under the Atonement, but not all would accept the Atonement. God is not a respector of humanity when it comes to the Atonement. Show us some scripture to back this theory up. I have never heard this before.

If you just read, what happens when the BOOK gets opened so that the trumpets can sound? What happens with the final trumpet? It is HUGE - one of the highlights of the entire book: SATAN is kicked off his throne! He has been the god of this world since Adam. But WHY does this happen at the 7th trumpet? It is because Adam's "earth lease" expires. This book sealed with 7 seals is the lease document of earth: created in heaven probably before Adam.
 
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BABerean2

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But WHY does this happen at the 7th trumpet? It is because Adam's "earth lease" expires.

It is because the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet found in the Bible.

It is because the deed to this planet was purchased through the fulfillment of a New Covenant at Calvary, and it was paid for in the sin-less blood of God's own Son.

He has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood, and a handful of nails.

His sacrifice made the Old Covenant "obsolete". (Hebrews 8:13)

He is "now" the mediator of a better covenant, with better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George


.
 
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Timtofly

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My friend, if you "do not" have a spirit, then you don't exist. When God created Adam, He created all the material part of the human, but what was lacking? LIFE was lacking. God blew life - the human spirit - into Adam...and it was powerful enough that that one spirit has created billions and billions of other spirits.

Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. (pneuma) (Blow, wind, breath)

They did not say "it is a soul." A soul used for mind, will, emotions, etc, cannot be seen. But soul used as a complete person of course can be seen.

Mark 2:8
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Jesus did not perceive this in his soul, for them it would be human knowledge. What happened was God the Holy Spirit passed this information to Jesus human spirit and Jesus was very sensitive to His spirit, which of course was the second part of the triune Godhead. But when Jesus took on the form of a man, He laid aside his "all knowing" attribute to be as a normal man. In all respects He was a man being led by the Holy Spirit, just as we are suppose to be. When God talks to a human, it is spirit to spirit. God does not talk to our soul. We hear him with our spiritual ears.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

He did not say, "receive my soul." It is the human spirit that is the real US, but the spirit always possessed a soul, which is different for every man. No two souls are alike, thinking the same thoughts, having the same mind, and will and emotions.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Jesus did not commend His soul into the Father's hands, it was His SPIRIT - the real He. When He died, His "ghost" or spirit left His body.

None of these verses prove the spirit is not in God's presence. You are equating the spirit with the air we breath. But the spirit we were created with was the glory of God. Not just air.

Genesis 2:7 gives the detail: "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being." Soul is being. We are soul, being, No, you are mistaken. Breath is pneuma, and it is LIFE. God breathed LIFE into him. He breathed a spirit that was ADam's life. It is SPIRIT that is life and being. Soul goes with the Spirit as the mind and will of that spirit.

We have no spirit in us, because God sent His own Holy Spirit as a replacement. WRONG! With no spirit our body would fall dead. Our human spirit is the real US, and keeps our body alive.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
The Holy Spirit is the seal inside OUR spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The human spirit is the real HIM.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. The spirit is the real US.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? God is the father of our SPIRITS, not our souls.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. When someone receives the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, they will speak in tongues, and it is their SPIRIT MAN praying, not their soul. The tongues bypasses the human mind: it comes from the Spirit man straight to the mouth which speaks. It is the same with prophecy, which is supernatural speaking but in the person's own language. Someone prophesying has no idea what He is saying until it is said, for it comes from the human spirit to the mouth to be spoken out. The soul is idle during these events, like a bystander.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. It is not the soul of the prophet that is subject, for we all know WE control our tongue - our MIND controls what we say. But Paul is saying when someone prophesies, the Holy Spirit does not take that person over and force the words out. He or she can choose to say the prophecy or not. Or say it at the right time.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. The sinner walks by his soul: his mind telling him what to do. But we are to walk in the Spirit, because it is our SPIRIT that was renewed By God. It is up to every believer to renew their minds.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The WAR in every believer is between the flesh and the SPIRIT, because it is our SPIRIT that is reborn, and The Holy Spirit is inside our spirit. Indeed, when Paul speaks of the "flesh" that includes our soul, which includes are memories and emotions that was tied to sin before we were born again - and that part of the human wants to keep right on sinning. We have to renew our mind.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul was sure we have all three parts of the human, spirit, soul and body,

There are more scriptures, but this should be enough to convince even you.

Adam died physically and spiritually that day. I would hope you would get at least one thing right. Adam died SPIRITUALLY - became separated from God - the instant he sinned. He died physically over 900 years later! Remember, to God death is only separation: physical death the spirit separates from the body; spiritual death the human spirit is separated from God. Eternal death is spiritual death that goes on forever.

Adam lost his spirit, and spirit is not genetic. Adam's spirit "died" (spiritual death) or became separated from God, but his spirit did not leave his body until 900 and some years later when his heart stopped.

Spirit is God with us. Better stated as our spirit is with God, now. When one is born again, God puts to death the old human spirit inherited from Adam, and God recreates a new spirit with HIS OWN DNA. We are sons and daughters of God, with His DNA to prove it - but this is only in the spirit. Sadly we must put up with these mortal bodies. They are our present home.

After God creates a NEW human spirit, then He places the seal of the Holy Spirit IN our human spirit.

It is the soul that goes to Paradise. Where else would those in Christ go at physical death? Those who are dead in their sin, their soul goes to sheol.

We can exist without a spirit. Wrong! We ARE our spirit: the human spirit is the real US. God created human spirits to live as long as he lives. Our spirit is US and is our LIFE and BEING.

We cannot exist without a soul. There are people who doctors have kept alive - that is the heart still beating - when "life" has left the body. The brain quit working. Can we exist without memories? I think so. Old people seem to lose much of their memory. Can we exist without a will? Some people seem not to be able to make a decision, so perhaps we can. However, it is a silly argument, since the soul is tied SO TIGHTLY to the Spirit that only the Word of God can separate the two. When the spirit leaves a body, after the heart stops, the soul ALWAYS goes with the spirit. There is no such thing as "soul sleep." MANY people have left their body for a time during physical traumas, and their minds kept right on thinking. But some discovered they could not communicate with the living no matter how loud they spoke: they were in a different realm. Souls are forever just as spirits are.

Once again the spirit is the glory of God, and Adam's descendants lost that glory. Instead we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of God. The spirit is not our life breadth. That some interpret us asking God to accept our life breath is not the same as the spirit God created those with, on the 6th day as sons of God in the full glory of God. Genesis 2 clearly states that God’s breadth made the sons of God living beings. We are born in Adam's image and likeness without God's glory. Without the Holy Spirit we are spiritually dead. Even our spirit has to leave God's presence and becomes a demon.
 
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