Testifying About God

Soyeong · Oct 8, 2020

P1: We should live in a way that testifies about God.
P2: The Mosaic Law testifies about God.
C: Therefore, we should live in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

God's laws are not arbitrarily given, but testify about God. For example, God's righteous laws testify about God's righteousness and teach us how to express His righteousness through our actions, so when we do that we are testify about God's righteousness and giving glory to His name. In Matthew 5:16, we are to let our light shine before others so that they may see our good works and give glory to our Father who is in heaven, so following God's instructions for how to do good works testifies about God's goodness. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, so following those instructions is testifying about God's holiness. So God's law is holy, righteous, and good because it testifies about and teaches us how to express God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Romans 7:12). Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so he is the personification of holiness, righteousness, and goodness, which is why he said in John 5:39-40 that the Scriptures testify about him. In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the expected reaction from the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel and how great and wise He is, so again their obedience what testifying about God.

So we are God's representatives tasked with being a light and a blessing to the nations through testifying about God so that we can draw the nations into a relationship with Him. However, when we are acting as God's representatives, but act in a way that misrepresents Him by not following OT Scriptures, then we are bearing false witness against God. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so the actions that testify about God will always testify about Him, which means if my syllogism has true premises and a valid form, then the conclusion is necessarily also true regardless of which covenant someone is under.

HARK! · Oct 8, 2020

What a wonderful message as we tabernacle with YHWH for Sukkot.

Chag Sameach!

clefty · Oct 9, 2020

Soyeong said:
P1: We should live in a way that testifies about God.
P2: The Mosaic Law testifies about God.
C: Therefore, we should live in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

God's laws are not arbitrarily given, but testify about God. For example, God's righteous laws testify about God's righteousness and teach us how to express His righteousness through our actions, so when we do that we are testify about God's righteousness and giving glory to His name. In Matthew 5:16, we are to let our light shine before others so that they may see our good works and give glory to our Father who is in heaven, so following God's instructions for how to do good works testifies about God's goodness. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, so following those instructions is testifying about God's holiness. So God's law is holy, righteous, and good because it testifies about and teaches us how to express God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness (Romans 7:12). Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so he is the personification of holiness, righteousness, and goodness, which is why he said in John 5:39-40 that the Scriptures testify about him. In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the expected reaction from the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel and how great and wise He is, so again their obedience what testifying about God.

So we are God's representatives tasked with being a light and a blessing to the nations through testifying about God so that we can draw the nations into a relationship with Him. However, when we are acting as God's representatives, but act in a way that misrepresents Him by not following OT Scriptures, then we are bearing false witness against God. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, so the actions that testify about God will always testify about Him, which means if my syllogism has true premises and a valid form, then the conclusion is necessarily also true regardless of which covenant someone is under.

HalleluYah

I would just like to add that biblical hebrew didn’t have future imperative “thou shalt” as if it were a prediction...

but Young’s translation comes closest in English with:

“Thou dost not”...so it literally describes His people

Like a parent telling a child “we don’t do that” “or even our family does not” like “the Smiths are known for not doing that”

So a people in His Name are described by these descriptions...having been SAVED first and then given the STANDARD by which to live...

I have enjoyed sharing the “10 Commandments” are NOT an instructional manual on HOW TO EARN SALVATION or WIN THE REWARD OF HEAVEN

but now that we by Faith ACCEPT we are His...and IN HIM...these “Laws” are our OWNER’S MANUAL to that which we have inherited by our adoption INTO His family...

And as an owner’s manual these standards merely help us maintain and maximize our use and pleasure of the Promise we inherited...by the faithful faith of Yahushua

This Owner’s Manual enshrines our rights to the Promise by our rights to adoption...rights He guaranteed on the cross...

And now we know why we wish to do good and what that good is...HOW to PLEASE Him...

And will be known as a people called by His Name...establishing His ways...bringing others into “where I AM there ye may be also”

Bob S · Oct 12, 2020

Soyeong said:
P1: We should live in a way that testifies about God.
P2: The Mosaic Law testifies about God.
C: Therefore, we should live in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Jesus is God. Is there a better testimony for all mankind than the testimony of our Savior Jesus Christ who loves us so much that He gave His life so that you and will live eternally. Why are you so stuck on the shadow laws of the now defunct Sinai covenant and its Mosaic laws when man has rubbed elbows with God on this Earth and we have the Holy Spirit within us testifying and the Holy Writ testifying of this glorious event?

Therefore, we are privileged to live in obedience to Jesus Christ. Jn 5:24, Jn 3:16, Jn 15:10-13, 1Jn3:19-24 and many more blessed promises found through out the Holy Writ.

SabbathBlessings · Oct 12, 2020

Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

In revelations 12: 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If Gods law was "done away with" as some posters here would like to think, why are these scriptures in the New Testament? None of these scriptures say "Jews of Israel keep My commandments". In the last book of the Bible the commandments are mentioned several times, right before Jesus comes. Why is that? Was Gods law "done away with" and these scriptures are placed in the Bible by error? Why would the devil go to war with the saints (the ones who keep Gods laws) if God's law didn't matter? Why would God do away with His law? Would He ever want us to murder, lie, cheat, vain His name and not worship Him on His day? Just common sense should tell you the answer, yet alone the overwhelming scriptures.

Look around us? Every day we are hearing about fires, murders, pandemics, thefts what would the world be like if everyone kept the commandments? Do you think God is going to want what is happening on earth in Heaven? Why are the commandments so important? What does the Bible say about keeping them?

Revelations 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelations 22: 12- 15
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Pray on these things. Let God lead your way.

Soyeong · Oct 12, 2020

Bob S said:
Jesus is God. Is there a better testimony for all mankind than the testimony of our Savior Jesus Christ who loves us so much that He gave His life so that you and will live eternally. Why are you so stuck on the shadow laws of the now defunct Sinai covenant and its Mosaic laws when man has rubbed elbows with God on this Earth and we have the Holy Spirit within us testifying and the Holy Writ testifying of this glorious event?

Therefore, we are privileged to live in obedience to Jesus Christ. Jn 5:24, Jn 3:16, Jn 15:10-13, 1Jn3:19-24 and many more blessed promises found through out the Holy Writ.

Testifying about what Christ accomplished through his death does not mean that we shouldn't also testify about how he lived. The foreshadows are important because testify about Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother with Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast. Passover is not something that God arbitrarily commanded, but rather it testifies about who God is, what He has done, and what He will do, and as followers of God we should live in a way that testifies about these things by keeping Passover instead of bearing false witness against God by denying who God is, what He has done, and what He will do through refusing to keep it. Jesus set an example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, including keeping Passover, and instructed His followers to have communion as part of it, and as his followers we should follow his example instead of denying that he is our Passover Lamb through our actions. The Holy Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), not the role of leading us to bear false witness against the Father.

In John 6:40, whoever looks on the Son and believes in him has has eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing the only true God and Christ whom he has sent, and in Matthew 19:17, if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so obedience to God's commandments is what it looks like to believe in the Son and to know him. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen or known him. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he knew knew them. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, the had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all the earth. So delighting in expressing steadfast love, justice, righteousness, and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to God's law is the way experientially know and be known by Him, or in other words grow in a relationship with Christ. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he expressed his love for us, how we are to love as he loved us, how to testify about his love, and how to experientially know him.

Bob S · Oct 12, 2020

imge said:
Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

Jesus commandment is to Love others as He loves us. By quoting Matt 5:19 you are disregarding what the SDA church teaches. It teaches that laws like the festivals, new moon, cutting sideburns are no longer requied to observe. Why would you quote Matt 5:19 and "shoot yourself in the foot"? Are you not breaking even more that the least of those commands?

In revelations 12: 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In the old covenant there were 613 commandments, in the new covenant someone has counted over one thousand. Can you tell us is Rev 12:17 what commandments John was referring?

If Gods law was "done away with" as some posters here would like to think, why are these scriptures in the New Testament?

Could it be that the writers of those verses were not referring to the ten commandments. Why do you believe they are referring to the ten? Could it be what you were taught and whoever taught you is wrong?

Look, none of the posts I have read have ever written that Christians are not without commands. First of all we are under all the many laws concerning morality. Those laws never change. The question is why would any Christian want to put themselves under the laws specifically given to the Israelites? Those laws were specifically for Israel. The Sabbath law was a ritual law given to Israel to commemorate their escape from Egypt by God and to remember creator and creation. There is no ritual law in the new covenant that asks Christians or anyone to observe the ritual Sabbath. Christians rest in Jesus every day. Today, if you hear His voice not Sabbath if you hear His voice. His rest is today. Israel observed the physical rest that God commanded once a week and special days. Christians observe the spiritual rest God offers us TODAY.

Bob S · Oct 12, 2020

Soyeong said:
Testifying about what Christ accomplished through his death does not mean that we shouldn't also testify about how he lived. The foreshadows are important because testify about Christ. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother with Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast. Passover is not something that God arbitrarily commanded, but rather it testifies about who God is, what He has done, and what He will do, and as followers of God we should live in a way that testifies about these things by keeping Passover instead of bearing false witness against God by denying who God is, what He has done, and what He will do through refusing to keep it. Jesus set an example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, including keeping Passover, and instructed His followers to have communion as part of it, and as his followers we should follow his example instead of denying that he is our Passover Lamb through our actions. The Holy Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), not the role of leading us to bear false witness against the Father.

In John 6:40, whoever looks on the Son and believes in him has has eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing the only true God and Christ whom he has sent, and in Matthew 19:17, if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so obedience to God's commandments is what it looks like to believe in the Son and to know him. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is the transgression of God's law, and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen or known him. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he knew knew them. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, the had forsaken God's law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all the earth. So delighting in expressing steadfast love, justice, righteousness, and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to God's law is the way experientially know and be known by Him, or in other words grow in a relationship with Christ. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so that is how he expressed his love for us, how we are to love as he loved us, how to testify about his love, and how to experientially know him.

Jesus lived and taught under the Mosaic law. He taught Torah to Jews because the Sinai covenant did not end until His death at Calvary. It was on that Cross that Jesus spilled His blood for all mankind and ratified with that blood the new and better covenant not like the old one. It was after His death that He commissioned Paul to teach salvation by faith and not by the works of the Law. I am so sorry that you cannot recognize the difference of the two covenants. It certainly isn't because it is not explained in the New Testament. Paul makes it so clear that we are not under the laws of the old covenant. 1Jn3:19-24 tells us we are doing right if we believe in Jesus and love others as He commanded. There is no suggestion for Christians to observe days in the new Testament. Paul certainly didn't make an issue that we are under the Sabbath laws. You are getting your information from Judaizers just like the Galatians were and certainly not from scripture. If there were a ten before commandments in all the scriptures you have quoted then it would be a different story.

Soyeong · Oct 12, 2020

Bob S said:
Jesus lived and taught under the Mosaic law. He taught Torah to Jews because the Sinai covenant did not end until His death at Calvary. It was on that Cross that Jesus spilled His blood for all mankind and ratified with that blood the new and better covenant not like the old one. It was after His death that He commissioned Paul to teach salvation by faith and not by the works of the Law. I am so sorry that you cannot recognize the difference of the two covenants. It certainly isn't because it is not explained in the New Testament. Paul makes it so clear that we are not under the laws of the old covenant. 1Jn3:19-24 tells us we are doing right if we believe in Jesus and love others as He commanded. There is no suggestion for Christians to observe days in the new Testament. Paul certainly didn't make an issue that we are under the Sabbath laws. You are getting your information from Judaizers just like the Galatians were and certainly not from scripture. If there were a ten before commandments in all the scriptures you have quoted then it would be a different story.

If you recognize that the Mosaic Law is what Jesus taught, then you should not reject his word:

John 12:44-50 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

Christ did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example. While we are under the New Covenant, which is a better and not like the old one, the New Covenant nevertheless still involves following the same God with the same law (Jeremiah 31:33). The only way that the New Covenant could have a different set of laws would be if it were made with a different God with a different nature and a different set of instructions for how to testify about His nature. I do recognize that there are difference of the two covenants, but that difference is not in regard to God's eternal law, and the argument that I made in my OP works regardless of which covenant we are under and regardless of the differences between the covenants, which means that you saying that we are under the New Covenant and not under the Mosaic Covenant is irrelevant to the point of this thread, so please address the argument that I made.

Salvation has always been by faith in both the OT and the NT and has never been earned either by obeying God's law or by obeying works of the law, and I have never suggested otherwise. Obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and love others as he commanded. It doesn't make any sense for you to recognize that Jesus commanded obedience to the Mosaic Law and to think that believing in him and loving others as he commanded involves refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example. A Christian is by definition someone who seeks by faith to follow what Christ taught by word and and by example, so it doesn't make any sense to think that there is no suggestion that Christians should follow Christ. If you think that Christ taught obedience to the Mosaic Law and that Paul taught against following anything that Christ taught by word or by example, then you have decision to make about which one to follow. However, Paul never did that, and I completely agree with his stance against the Judaizers. Sin is the transgression of God's law, not just ten of them.

Bob S · Oct 12, 2020

Soyeong said:
If you recognize that the Mosaic Law is what Jesus taught, then you should not reject his word:

I don't. I believe Paul was Jesus ambassador to the new church. He said we are not under the ten commandments. He said Jesus was the end of the Law. Jesus is our High Priest and since there was a change in the priesthood then there is also a change in the Law.

clefty · Oct 12, 2020

Bob S said:
I don't. I believe Paul was Jesus ambassador to the new church. He said we are not under the ten commandments.

so this new church CAN

worship another god
make images and worship them
blaspheme His name
dishonor parents
kill
steal
lie
covet

Notice I left out do not commit adultery as the Acts 15 Jerusalem was clear this was EXPECTED of them as even James concluded gentiles would KEEP hearing Moses every Sabbath Acts 15:21 so I left out Paul did NOT mean we are free from it too...

You wouldn't have Paul go against the One Who said it was for Man not just Jews right?

He said Jesus was the end of the Law.

so you really do think Christians CAN

worship another god
make images and worship them
blaspheme His name
rest every day no day
dishonor parents
kill
commit adultery
steal
lie
covet

well historically that is pretty accurate...LOL

Paul wrote He is the "telos" greek for goal aim end result or ENDzone...

makes sense as Torah is described as the way the truth and the light...and well the Word became flesh...so yeah...He was the LAW manifest to teach and demonstrate His Father's will and way...

Jesus is our High Priest and since there was a change in the priesthood then there is also a change in the Law.

right the LAW OF PRIESTHOOD...He is the High Priest of Perfect Holy Unchanging Law...the Character of the Immortal One Himself...

wow you really do wish to divide His kingdom between those that do vs that claim they don't

and all for a Jewish fable they tried to pin on Stephen to stir up the people and slander him claiming he taught "Yahushua changed the customs Moses delivered"...Luke was clear this was FALSE witness Acts 6:13-14 as Stephen did NOT teach this BECAUSE Yahushua taught "think NOT that" and here you are doing exactly that and teaching others...

not going in yourself you keep others from doing so...

Soyeong · Oct 12, 2020

Bob S said:
I don't. I believe Paul was Jesus ambassador to the new church. He said we are not under the ten commandments. He said Jesus was the end of the Law. Jesus is our High Priest and since there was a change in the priesthood then there is also a change in the Law.

You're still avoiding addressing the argument that I made in my OP.

Jesus taught obedience to the Mosaic Law, including the ten commandments, so if Paul had taught that that we aren't under the ten commandments and that Jesus was the end of the law, then that would be the clearest indication that Paul was not Jesus' ambassador, however Paul was not an enemy of God, so he never did that. In Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for him was if they taught against obeying His law, so if Paul had done as you suggest, then according to God we should disregard him as being a false prophet, and you would still be obligated to obey God's law.

In Romans 6:14, Paul specified that the law that we are not under is a law where sin had dominion over us, however, the Mosaic Law is not a law where sin had dominion over us, so Paul was not referring to it, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law, so we are still obligated to obey it. Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin, so it doesn't make much sense for you to interpret that verse in a way that undermines the rest of the chapter and the rest of the Bible for that matter. So Paul never said that we aren't under the Ten Commandments.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the righteousness of God only comes through faith in Christ. So they failed to obtain righteousness because they pursued the Mosaic Law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30:11-16, in regard to this faith saying that the law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it, and in regard to what it looks like to submit to Jesus as Lord. So there is nothing in the context of this verse that even remotely suggests that Christ is ending his eternal law, but just the opposite.

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so any instructions that God has give for how to do what is righteous are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. If the way to express God's righteousness were to change when the New Covenant was made, then God's righteousness would not be eternal, so Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change in the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit idolatry or sinful to help the poor, but rather in context it is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.

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Testifying About God

Soyeong

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HARK!

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clefty

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