HIM

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Jesse Dornfeld

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It does not say that. Don't (we shouldn't) add what is not there.

I could make a case for it, but this is a fruitless endeavor. Peace be with you.
 
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HIM

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HIM

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Hi Him,

Thanks for the greeting!

Let's take a look at Hebrews 4:

1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

This "Sabbath-rest" is explicitly tied to "the seventh day" and resting from our works, "just as God did from His." This seventh day is not generic, but specific as it is tied to "the creation of the world." The "Sabbath-rest" that remains "for the people of God" is the "seventh day" Sabbath.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
What version is that my friend? Do you prefer it?
 
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Icyspark

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The Christian religion, as taught and confessed by the Holy Apostles, laid forth in Holy Scripture, and as believed by the historic Christian Church since the beginning is that Christians are under no obligation to observe the Jewish Sabbath.


Hi ViaCrucis,

There is no where is the Scriptures using the term "Jewish Sabbath." On the other hand the seventh day is identified as:
  • The holy Sabbath (Exodus 16:23)
  • The Sabbath of the Lord (Exodus 20:10)
  • My holy day (Isaiah 58:13)
  • The Sabbath according to the commandment (Luke 23:56)
  • The seventh day (Hebrews 4:4)
  • The Lord's day (Revelation 1:10)
The "Holy Apostles," as illustrated in the opening post, knew nothing of any abrogation of the Sabbath (see again, Luke 23:56), and they continued to observe the Sabbath after the resurrection of Jesus.


Both implicitly and explicitly the Scriptures are clear on this. For we read St. Paul write in his epistle to the Colossians that we should not allow ourselves to be judged and intimidated by people who tell us what we can or can't eat or drink, or what days to observe, or on matters of sabbaths, new moons, etc.


The seventh day Sabbath of the Ten Commandment covenant is a memorial of the creation event. It is not a "shadow of things to come," as Colossians 2:16, 17 indicates. And why would a Christian wish to forget to "remember" Jesus as their Creator? Why would Jesus set up a cyclical event of remembering Him as the Creator every seventh day for 4,000 years and then suddenly and secretly deem it no longer necessary? Jesus isn't even the one who supposedly accomplished this feat. That being the case it can't be considered part of the New Covenant since a covenant/will cannot be altered once the Person has died (Hebrews 9:11-22).


If an individual Christian wishes to rest on Saturday, they are free to do so.
If an individual Christian wishes to work on Saturday, they are free to do so.


Christians are not free to do as they please. Followers of Christ do the things which please Him (John 14:23, 24). Followers of Christ go where He goes and do what He did (1 Peter 2:21; 1 John 2:6). We are the sheep. He is our Shepherd. He leads. We follow. The sheep know the Shepherd's voice. If we are not following the Shepherd, then we do not belong to Him (John 10:1-6).


No command from God exists which promotes one day over another, or forbids one day from another.


The Sabbath command is part of the Ten Commandment covenant. It is a set of ten. No more. No less. Not nine. Not 613. Just ten.

Paul, quoting from the Ten Commandment covenant says, "I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, 'You shall not covet'" (Romans 7:7). In verse 11, speaking in the present tense he says, "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."


Further, there exists no command from God on what day the Church ought to gather together for worship. Christians do not gather together on the Lord's Day (Sunday) for worship because God has commanded it, but instead because this has been the standard day of gathered worship since the time of the Apostles themselves. It is not a matter of commandment, but rather of the custom of the Church since the beginning; as an exercise of our free conscience. It only made sense, both then as well as now, that if we choose to meet together at least weekly, the most obvious day for this would be on the same day Christ our God rose from the dead, which in time came to be called Kyriake hemera, the Lord's Day. Hence we see in the Apocalypse of St. John that he was caught up in a vision on the Lord's Day, that is, the first day of the week, the day which had already been the standard day of Christian worship for decades.


The Sabbath was set apart as a day of rest and a day to remember Jesus as our Creator. The example of Paul and the other apostles was to assemble together on the Sabbath. As item 5 in my opening post pointed out, there is a biblical record of 76 Sabbath's where Paul gathered together with Jews and Gentiles and preached to them.

Acts 17:2, 3
As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,” he said.


Acts 18:4, 11
Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.


So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

On what biblical basis are you applying the title of "the Lord's Day" to Sunday?


Sabbatarianism is nothing more than a repackaging of the same ancient heresy which St. Paul fights against constantly in many of his letters, the heresy of the Judaizers.

-CryptoLutheran


Apparently, for you, following the example of Christ, the example of Paul, the example of the disciples, and the example of the Gentiles amounts to heresy? "God forbid!"

In his "Against the Antinomians," Martin Luther writes, "I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that anyone think that I should reject the law of ten commandments. . . . Can anyone think that sin exists where there is no law? Whoever abrogates the law, must of necessity abrogate sin also."

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Icyspark

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What version is that my friend? Do you prefer it?


Hi Him,

I generally use either the NIV or NKJV. I tend to use NIV as I have read it more and am more familiar with how it phrases things.

What version do you use and why?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Icyspark

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Except to say Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law, no. But the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible either.

I can only illustrate it this way: Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."


Hi True Counterphobia,

I'm surmising that when you are quoting Matthew 11:28 that you're using this text to infer that "Jesus is our Sabbath"? Could you extrapolate further how you're using this text? The Sabbath of the Ten Commandment covenant provides for physical rest. Does "resting in Jesus" provide this same physical rest?

Thanks!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Hi True Counterphobia,

I'm surmising that when you are quoting Matthew 11:28 that you're using this text to infer that "Jesus is our Sabbath"? Could you extrapolate further how you're using this text? The Sabbath of the Ten Commandment covenant provides for physical rest. Does "resting in Jesus" provide this same physical rest?

Thanks!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Thank you for your inquiry.

This must be understood knowing the "yoke" of Israel, which is "Heavy" as they were in sin as we all are before coming to Christ. When Christ tells us to rest in Him He is representing that He is there to relieve us of our heavy yoke we have made for ourselves being outside of Him. His yoke is easy and His burden is light because He has no sin and He invites us to rest in Him.

Blessings.
 
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Icyspark

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Thank you for your inquiry.

This must be understood knowing the "yoke" of Israel, which is "Heavy" as they were in sin as we all are before coming to Christ. When Christ tells us to rest in Him He is representing that He is there to relieve us of our heavy yoke we have made for ourselves being outside of Him. His yoke is easy and His burden is light because He has no sin and He invites us to rest in Him.

Blessings.


Hi True Counterphobia,

If there was a "yoke" which was "heavy" on Israel it was a yoke of their own devising. Jesus is the one who gave the commandment which supplied a once every seventh day opportunity to set aside their regular activities and "remember" Him as their Creator. The rest which the seventh day Sabbath supplies is a physical rest. This rest is not only for believers in God, but also for work animals and the "stranger within your gates."

"Resting in Him" does not overrule the command He gave to "Remember the Sabbath day" (Matthew 5:17, 18).

Do you drink water?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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HIM

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Hi Him,

I generally use either the NIV or NKJV. I tend to use NIV as I have read it more and am more familiar with how it phrases things.

What version do you use and why?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
Hi there Icyspark
I tend to look at the Greek through Interlinears and lexicons a lot. However I guess generally I use the KJV. But utilize a lot of direct or literal translations as well. Do you know of the Textus Receptus and the Alexandrian Text. The reason I ask is the NIV is translated from the Alexandrian and the KJV is from the TR. These two text have quite a few difference which translate also in their translations.
 
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Biltong65

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The Christian religion, as taught and confessed by the Holy Apostles, laid forth in Holy Scripture, and as believed by the historic Christian Church since the beginning is that Christians are under no obligation to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Both implicitly and explicitly the Scriptures are clear on this. For we read St. Paul write in his epistle to the Colossians that we should not allow ourselves to be judged and intimidated by people who tell us what we can or can't eat or drink, or what days to observe, or on matters of sabbaths, new moons, etc.

If an individual Christian wishes to rest on Saturday, they are free to do so.
If an individual Christian wishes to work on Saturday, they are free to do so.

No command from God exists which promotes one day over another, or forbids one day from another.

Further, there exists no command from God on what day the Church ought to gather together for worship. Christians do not gather together on the Lord's Day (Sunday) for worship because God has commanded it, but instead because this has been the standard day of gathered worship since the time of the Apostles themselves. It is not a matter of commandment, but rather of the custom of the Church since the beginning; as an exercise of our free conscience. It only made sense, both then as well as now, that if we choose to meet together at least weekly, the most obvious day for this would be on the same day Christ our God rose from the dead, which in time came to be called Kyriake hemera, the Lord's Day. Hence we see in the Apocalypse of St. John that he was caught up in a vision on the Lord's Day, that is, the first day of the week, the day which had already been the standard day of Christian worship for decades.

Sabbatarianism is nothing more than a repackaging of the same ancient heresy which St. Paul fights against constantly in many of his letters, the heresy of the Judaizers.

-CryptoLutheran

100% Agreement.

I find that "Sabbatarians" tend to come from a few groups who are more interested in being the exclusive "Remnant" (from their very founding), and that is why "Sabbatarianism" has become their "distinctive".

I consider denominations that hold Saturday, or Sunday worship as keeping "a" Sabbath, or "Lord's Day". This, not being the Jewish Sabbath.
 
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Icyspark

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Hi there Icyspark
I tend to look at the Greek through Interlinears and lexicons a lot. However I guess generally I use the KJV. But utilize a lot of direct or literal translations as well. Do you know of the Textus Receptus and the Alexandrian Text. The reason I ask is the NIV is translated from the Alexandrian and the KJV is from the TR. These two text have quite a few difference which translate also in their translations.


Hi Him,

That's great that you're looking at the text through interlinears and lexicons!

I am aware of some of the problems with translations and try to limit them by reading multiple versions of the Bible. I'm sure you're aware that the KJV has its own issues. I don't worry too much about it as I believe I can share truth from whatever version I'm using.

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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ViaCrucis

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In his "Against the Antinomians," Martin Luther writes, "I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that anyone think that I should reject the law of ten commandments. . . . Can anyone think that sin exists where there is no law? Whoever abrogates the law, must of necessity abrogate sin also."

"The word holy day (Feiertag) is rendered from the Hebrew word sabbath which properly signifies to rest, that is, to abstain from labor. Hence we are accustomed to say, Feierabend machen [that is, to cease working], or heiligen Abend geben [sanctify the Sabbath]. Now, in the Old Testament, God separated the seventh day, and appointed it for rest, and commanded that it should be regarded as holy above all others. As regards this external observance, this commandment was given to the Jews alone, that they should abstain from toilsome work, and rest, so that both man and beast might recuperate, and not be weakened by unremitting labor. Although they afterwards restricted this too closely, and grossly abused it, so that they traduced and could not endure in Christ those works which they themselves were accustomed to do on that day, as we read in the Gospel; just as though the commandment were fulfilled by doing no external, [manual] work whatever, which, however, was not the meaning, but, as we shall hear, that they sanctify the holy day or day of rest.

This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ.
" - Martin Luther, the Large Catechism, Section I, 3

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi ViaCrucis,

Being a Christian means being a follower of Christ. Are you following Christ?

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Yes, I seek (but most frequently fail because I am a sinner) to follow Christ and the commandments He laid down. Christ commands that I love my neighbor, that I love my enemy, that I turn the other cheek, that I am generous, kind, that I love God, that I seek the good of my neighbor, that my neighbor has food, drink, clothing, that the stranger is welcomed, etc.

Christ does not command that I pretend to be Jewish when I am not.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Did you write this or is it a cut and paste from somewhere?

No, it's all me.

Historic Christian Church since the beginning? You are mistakenly mislead. The Apostolic Age which is covered in Scriptures spans 30-100 AD. Nowhere in the Holy Writ is the Sabbath of the Decalogue nullified.

The Apostolic Council of Jerusalem maintained that Gentile converts to Christianity were under no compulsion to observe the Torah, but instead were to simply abstain themselves from pagan ritual practice. You can read about in the 15th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.

It is sabbaths not the Sabbath in verse 16.

The Sabbath is a Sabbath.

Please follow along. We will look at the context. Verse 10-13 is a good place to start. We are complete in Him, circumcised in the putting off the body of sins. Buried with Him dead in our sins and the uncircumcision of our flesh. Wherein also we are risen with Him, quickened together with Him through faith. Forgiving all tresspasses.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Blotting out the handwriting of the (to the) decrees, having been quickened together with Him, all tresspasses forgiven there is no need for the Handwriting to the (of the) Decrees. Therefore let no man Judge you from the Handwritings of the (to the) Decrees. In which also the meat and drink offerings, holy days and sabbaths are recorded, handwritten.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decrees that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Yep, that's what the Apostle says.

Except The 4th commandment.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
That which was written on Stone is now to be in and of our hearts, faith through the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God.
Heb 8:10; Rom 10:6-8; 2 Cor. 3:3,4

And this God has done, not by insisting on the continuation of the old external matters of the Torah, such as food, drink, sabbaths, circumcision, holy days, etc; but the heart of God's Law, as Christ our God says, that we love the Lord our God, and love our neighbors as our selves.

We are to worship God everyday and gather to worship and fellowship as much as possible in and through Christ. But the Sabbath as recorded in the Decalogue is a the Day of rest God choose for us in honor of creation. In this rest we are to keep our activities holy through and in Christ not necessarily gather for worship as a congregation.

Exod 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exod 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exod 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exod 20:11 For (Because) in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And that's why the Jews were to rest on the seventh day, for that was God's command for them under the Covenant He established with them at Mt. Horeb. That Covenant does not apply to Christians, for as the author of the Hebrews has said, that there is a new covenant means that the old has been done away with.

Catholic Dogma. Jesus is recorded as proclaiming Himself as Lord of the Sabbath. So if we are to speculate which Day is the Lord's Day then it would be the Day in which He has proclaim to be Lord of. Not the Day that the Apostate Church which persecuted and killed Christian said is through the few papers which they preserved through their Apostasy.

It's a simple matter of historical fact.

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God.
" - St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians ch. 9-10, c. 107 AD

If we have the Faith of CHrist, God's law, His Word, Christ in our hearts, minds and mouths it is no longer a matter of the letter, tables of stone, but of the heart, faith. For we who have been baptised in CHrist have put on Christ. Putting off the body of sins which are of the flesh: by whose stripes we were healed.

Then live like it, and do not return to the yoke of slavery by telling people they have to observe the Sabbath.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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100% Agreement.

I find that "Sabbatarians" tend to come from a few groups who are more interested in being the exclusive "Remnant" (from their very founding), and that is why "Sabbatarianism" has become their "distinctive".

I consider denominations that hold Saturday, or Sunday worship as keeping "a" Sabbath, or "Lord's Day". This, not being the Jewish Sabbath.

Your observation is pretty spot on in my opinion.

Primitivism is an alluring idea, after all who wouldn't want to practice Christianity as the Apostles did? The problem with it of course is that rather than practicing the apostolic faith Primitivism--in its many forms--always results in new sectarianism based not upon historic, apostolic, biblical teaching and practice but the innovative ideas and innovative practices of those founding their new sect.

In truth, it is impossible to "go back to the first century", because it's not the first century anymore. Additionally, we can be confident in the historic faith of the Church throughout the centuries, not as though the Church is somehow in every place and in every time infallible; but because we can see throughout history the consistent belief and consistent practice of Christians, in every century. But in order to destroy this confidence in Christ's promise to us that His Church will stand victorious even against the gates of Hades, men have to invent the myth of an apostate Church and the further myth of a secret "remnant" church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chad kincham

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1. Sabbath as a Memorial
Genesis 2:1-3

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

1) First of all, LORD in the OT is YHWH, not Jesus, thus quoting Exodus and claiming it’s proof that Jesus said to remember the sabbath, is disingenuous at best.

2) God rested on the seventh day, but did not command anyone else to keep a seventh day sabbath at that time.


You won’t find the word sabbath anywhere in Genesis, nor find Abraham or anyone else in Genesis resting on the 7th day - because there was no such command until God gave it to Israel as a covenant sign of His freeing them from slavery in Egypt, after their Exodus.


Moses said NO ONE had the law the law God gave to Israel, until God gave it to him on Mount Sinai:


Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made NOT this covenant with our fathers, but with US even-us, who are all of us here alive THIS day.


And God says why and to who, He first gave the command to keep the 7th day:


Deu 5:15 And REMEMBER that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE the LORD thy God commanded THEE to keep the sabbath day.


The sabbath day command was given only to Israel as a covenant sign and memorial of their being set free from slavery in Egypt.


Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of ISRAEL, saying, Verily my sabbaths YE shall keep: for it is a SIGN between ME and YOU throughout YOUR generations; that ye May know that I amthe LORD that doth sanctify YOU.

3) Jesus of course kept the sabbath, it was still in effect until He died and rose again.
Not to mention that if He went on Sunday into the Orthodox Jewish synagogue to read from Isaiah, as the NT shows He did, there would’ve been no one there to listen.

4) Saying that the disciples kept the sabbath when Jesus was newly dead, is irrelevant.

The revelation to Peter that the old covenant was ended - when God told Peter to eat animals that were unclean under the law, (and told Peter He had cleansed them) - hadn’t happened yet.

5) and 6) Paul is found throughout Acts, preaching to the Jews in synagogues (not in churches) that Jesus is the Christ.
The only time the non-Christian Jews were in the synagogue for Paul to evangelize them, was on Saturdays.

Orthodox Jews go to synagogues. Christian Jews, such as those in Acts 2, go to churches, not synagogues - as in Acts 2 when people were added to the CHURCH.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the CHURCH (not synagogue) daily such as should be saved.

Starting in Acts 13:13 you can read Paul’s entire sermon to the Jews, and it’s obvious he is preaching to them, and to gentile proselytes (gentiles that converted to Judaism - just as some do today) that Jesus is their Messiah.

Here’s an excerpt:

Act 13:26 “Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation.

Act 13:27 For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.

Act 13:28 And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed.

Act 13:29 And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,

The excerpt makes it obvious that Paul was there to convince Jews and proselyte gentiles, that Jesus is Messiah, and that He rose from the dead.

The next chapter makes it even clearer why they kept going to synagogues in city after city, and how they were persecuted for preaching Christ to the Jews and gentile proselytes (Greeks):

Act 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

Act 14:2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Act 14:3 So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Act 14:4 But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles.

Act 14:5 When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Act 14:6 they learned of it and fled to Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and to the surrounding country,

Act 14:7 and there they continued to preach the gospel.

7) Jesus says that when the son of perdition steps into the temple, those living in JUDEA should flee, and pray that it doesn’t happen on the sabbath.

Who lived in JUDEA when Jesus walked the earth with His apostles?

Jews.

Who rejected Jesus, and had Him crucified?

Jews in Judea.

What day did non Christian Jews still keep?

The sabbath.

Jesus says that the sabbath keeping Jews should pray they don’t have to flee from the Antichrist on their sabbath, when they aren’t allowed to travel.

This fact is not proof Jesus taught that the sabbath should be kept today.

8) Two scriptures cut to the chase about not having to keep the 7th day sabbath:


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe DAYS and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


“Sabbaths, new moons, and set feasts” answer to “days, months, times.” 1Chronicles 23:31


1 Chronicles 23:31 (KJV)

31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the SABBATHS, in the NEW MOONS, and on the SET FEASTS, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:


The word sabbaths is word H7676 in Hebrew:


H7676 (Strong)

שַׁבָּת

shabbâth

shab-bawth'

Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath: - (+ every) sabbath.

Total KJV occurrences: 111


Thus Galatians 4:9-11 is talking about sabbaths that includes the weekly sabbaths.


Next:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days:

Col 2:17 Which are a SHADOW of things to come; but the BODY isof Christ.


The word sabbath above, is H4521 in Strongs:


G4521 (Strong)

σάββατον

sabbaton

sab'-bat-on

Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath(that is, Shabbath), or day of WEEKLY repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - SABBATH (DAY), week.

Total KJV occurrences: 68


Colossians 2:16-17 states to let no one judge you for not keeping the sabbath day, because it’s a shadow of Jesus, (who’s the real rest for us Matthew 11:28-29 - every day we rest in Him, and no longer on a ceremonial day).
 
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Icyspark

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Hi chad kincham,

First let me say thanks for the investment of the time and thought you've put into your response!


1) First of all, LORD in the OT is YHWH, not Jesus, thus quoting Exodus and claiming it’s proof that Jesus said to remember the sabbath, is disingenuous at best.


I'm not sure how my claiming that Jesus is the one who provided instructions about how to observe the Sabbath is "disingenuous". I don't know you and I don't know how you approach the Scriptures, so let me ask you a few questions:
  1. Do you believe "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8)?
  2. Do you believe that "the Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [That] in Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible" (Colossians 1:15, 16)?
  3. Do you believe that Jesus is the Word and that in the beginning He was with God and was God and that all things were made by Him (John 1:1-3)?


2) God rested on the seventh day, but did not command anyone else to keep a seventh day sabbath at that time.


You won’t find the word sabbath anywhere in Genesis, nor find Abraham or anyone else in Genesis resting on the 7th day - because there was no such command until God gave it to Israel as a covenant sign of His freeing them from slavery in Egypt, after their Exodus.


Genesis is a book primarily dealing with origins. There is no recorded command which reveals that murder is wrong, yet when Cain's offering was rejected and he got "very angry" God told him that "sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."

The story of Joseph provides another example of a known forbidden action of which there is no prior record of God forbidding it.

When Potiphar's wife attempted to seduce Joseph his response was to say that her idea was "wicked" and would be a "sin against God."

The apostle John provides a succinct definition of sin, "Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God," and Paul says, "where there is no law there is no transgression." The law was not codified in written form, but it is apparent that it had been revealed.

The Sabbath is first revealed in Genesis 2:1-3
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

All the elements that define the Sabbath in Exodus 20:8-11 are likewise in the Genesis account.

God is all powerful and doesn't require rest. He is holy, so making a day holy for His singular purposes would be meaningless. Blessing a day for Himself would likewise be meaningless. So all this resting, blessing and making holy was not for Him. However, when Genesis 2 is viewed from the context that everything God is doing is ultimately for His human creation then it can be easily understood that God provided this every seventh day rest cycle from the beginning. There is no command, but as Jesus points out, "The Sabbath was made for human beings (anthropos)."

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Icyspark

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Yes, I seek (but most frequently fail because I am a sinner) to follow Christ and the commandments He laid down. Christ commands that I love my neighbor, that I love my enemy, that I turn the other cheek, that I am generous, kind, that I love God, that I seek the good of my neighbor, that my neighbor has food, drink, clothing, that the stranger is welcomed, etc.

Christ does not command that I pretend to be Jewish when I am not.

-CryptoLutheran


Hi ViaCrucis,

Yes, and I am a sinner too. However, in order to be a sinner you need to have the law that identifies you as such when you transgress it. The Ten Commandments are said law and that law contains the command to remember the Sabbath. If you believe--as some do--that the Ten Commandments are abolished, then you and I are not sinners. If we are not sinners, then we have no need of a Savior.

From my understanding of Scripture icy that the new covenant is only for the "people of Israel and the people of Judah" (Hebrews 8:7-13). If you're a Gentile like me then we become part of Israel by being grafted into Israel's tree (Romans 11:11-24).

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Icyspark

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"The word holy day (Feiertag) is rendered from the Hebrew word sabbath which properly signifies to rest, that is, to abstain from labor. Hence we are accustomed to say, Feierabend machen [that is, to cease working], or heiligen Abend geben [sanctify the Sabbath]. Now, in the Old Testament, God separated the seventh day, and appointed it for rest, and commanded that it should be regarded as holy above all others. As regards this external observance, this commandment was given to the Jews alone, that they should abstain from toilsome work, and rest, so that both man and beast might recuperate, and not be weakened by unremitting labor. Although they afterwards restricted this too closely, and grossly abused it, so that they traduced and could not endure in Christ those works which they themselves were accustomed to do on that day, as we read in the Gospel; just as though the commandment were fulfilled by doing no external, [manual] work whatever, which, however, was not the meaning, but, as we shall hear, that they sanctify the holy day or day of rest.

This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ.
" - Martin Luther, the Large Catechism, Section I, 3

-CryptoLutheran


Hi ViaCrucis,

Martin Luther gets it right when he affirms the ongoing continuity of the Ten Commandment covenant. He gets it wrong when he attempts to disembody the Sabbath from the unit of Ten, thus making his previous affirmation null and void since he is in reality only affirming the nine commandments. The Bible knows of no such fractured unit.

Of the Ten Commandments Paul calls them "holy, righteous and good" (Romans 7:7-12).

God bless!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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