The Face of God

JAL

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I was just wondering does God the Father actually have a face?
Yes. God is a physical being. For 2,000 years most of the church (excepting the church father Tertullian) has bought into Platonic philosophy leading to the conclusion that God is a "spirit" (a horrible translation of the Greek and Hebrew) even though ALL (not just some) of the biblical data militates against this nonsense. Here's a commentary from the ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia composed by 200 evangelical scholars) on Ex 33:18-23:

"The glory of Yahweh is clearly a physical manifestation, a form with hands and rear parts, of which Moses is permitted to catch only a passing glimpse, but the implication is clear that he actually does see Yahweh with his physical eyes."

The above quote from the ISBE is DEFINING the term "glory of the Lord" as it was used throughout the OT. The term designated both the physical pillars of Cloud and Fire leading Israel in its travels AND the human shaped figure frequently enshrouded within those pillars, not to mention the Radiance from His face, "His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance" (Rev 1:16) -a brilliance that physically scarred/blinded Paul's eyes on the Road to Damascus such that scales formed within them.

Probably half the stuff that the church has taught about God's nature, over the last 2,000 years, originates from Plato and is almost certainly dead wrong.

Anyway, click here for an example of a thread where I defend the position that God is a physical being. On that thread I omitted some of the big picture but followed up with this thread.
 
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Michael the Lowly

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So what does that mean exactly?

Oh, sorry. Here is an easier to understand translation:

20 But you cannot see my face, because no one can see me and live.

21 “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes that place, I will put you in a large crack in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you will see my back. But my face must not be seen.”
Exodus 33:20-23 NCV
 
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April_Rose

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Oh, sorry. Here is an easier to understand translation:

20 But you cannot see my face, because no one can see me and live.

21 “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes that place, I will put you in a large crack in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you will see my back. But my face must not be seen.”
Exodus 33:20-23 NCV







Sorry,.. but I'm afraid that I still don't really know what that means. :confused:
 
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Jonaitis

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I was just wondering does God the Father actually have a face? Others have claimed to have had a NDE and seen it. Is that real? Are they telling the truth?

We call this anthropomorphism, the attribution of human traits, emotions, or intentions to non-human entities. God does not have a face as we do. The divine countenance is his glory, and his glory is the display of his holiness. For you to truly see his "face" is to expose yourself to the full manifestation of his holiness.
 
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JAL

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So what does that mean exactly?
As one poster noted on this thread, you CAN see God in this life, but just not in the absolute fullness of His glory. I refer to it as a shaded view of His face (literally).

Why would it kill you? Bear in mind some of the ways a drug overdose can kill you:
  • The body literally “forgets” to breathe
  • Your heart beats irregularly
  • Your blood pressure drops
  • Fluids can back up into your lungs

In my understanding, the soul is physically spread throughout the body from head to toe. Seeing God's face in fullness (i.e. the Light stimulating every particle of the body/mind unit in an effort to reveal His beauty, power, majesty, holines) culminates in an emotional impact probably hundreds or thousands of times more potent than any narcotic. You'd die instantly of a heart attack. Bear in mind that even one powerful emotion - such as fear - can give you a heart attack.

Why can't God simply hold your heart steady so that that it doesn't spasm to death? Holding your heart still is stopping the heart. That itself IS death. Furthemore, any act on His part to LESSEN THE EXPERIENCE (such as holding you still) is itself a form of shading His face. It's no longer a full exposure.

Or why can't He temporarily remove your soul from the body, let you see his face in fullness, and then resurrect you? That wouldn't be enough to spare your life. The sanctifying effect of seeing His face will have CHANGED you. Your cogitative patterns would now be so deviant from times past that your body is no longer a good fit for your mind. You'd STILL end up with ruptured organs. Not to mention the spasms resulting from a kind of spiritual PTSD.

Does this mean that the human body is incompatible with God? No. It just means the body needs time to gradually adapt to divine Radiation (slowly and incrementally), if death is to be avoided. But it's unlikely that one lifetime is enough to fully adapt, given our sinful nature. As for this life, then, no one can see His face and live.
 
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1213

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Also, if God the Father doesn't have a face or body does that mean that we'll never be able to hug Him in Heaven? :(

Don’t worry, there is these nice sayings:

"The King will answer them, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
Matt. 25:40

Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me."
John 13:20

Because of that, I think every good thing you do to other people, you do also to God. :)
 
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pescador

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We call this anthropomorphism, the attribution of human traits, emotions, or intentions to non-human entities. God does not have a face as we do. The divine countenance is his glory, and his glory is the display of his holiness. For you to truly see his "face" is to expose yourself to the full manifestation of his holiness.

Then why does it say that God created mankind in His own image? (We have faces!) God walked in the Garden -- with no face?
 
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Andrewn

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Then why does it say that God created mankind in His own image? (We have faces!) God walked in the Garden -- with no face?
Christ created the world:

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Source: 5 Bible verses about Christ's Role In Creation
 
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pescador

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We call this anthropomorphism, the attribution of human traits, emotions, or intentions to non-human entities. God does not have a face as we do. The divine countenance is his glory, and his glory is the display of his holiness. For you to truly see his "face" is to expose yourself to the full manifestation of his holiness.

God does in deed have a face.

Genesis 32:30, "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Genesis 33:10, "“No, please!” said Jacob. “If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably.

Exodus 33:11, "
The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.

Exodus 33:20, "But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Leviticus 17:10, "“I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people.

Leviticus 20:3-6, "I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek. “‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people."

Leviticus 20:17, "I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you."

Numbers 6:24-26, "‘“The Lord bless you
and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;
the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.”

Numbers 12:7-8, "But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 5:4, "The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain."

Deuteronomy 31:17-18, "And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed.

Deuteronomy 32:20, "“I will hide my face from them,” he said, “and see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, children who are unfaithful.

Deuteronomy 34:10, "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face"

1 Chronicles 16:11, "Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always.

2 Chronicles 7:14, "if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

2 Chronicles 30:9, "If you return to the Lord, then your fellow Israelites and your children will be shown compassion by their captors and will return to this land, for the Lord your God is gracious and compassionate. He will not turn his face from you if you return to him.”

Job 13:15, "Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him; I will surely defend my ways to his face."

Job 33:26, "then that person can pray to God and find favor with him, they will see God’s face and shout for joy; he will restore them to full well-being"

Job 34:29, "But if he remains silent, who can condemn him? If he hides his face, who can see him? Yet he is over individual and nation alike,"

Psalm 4:6, "Many, Lord, are asking, “Who will bring us prosperity?” Let the light of your face shine on us."

Psalm 10:11, "He says to himself, “God will never notice; he covers his face and never sees."

Psalm 11:7, "For the Lord is righteous, he loves justice; the upright will see his face."

Psalm 13:1, "How long, Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me?"

Psalm 17:15, "As for me, I will be vindicated and will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."

Psalm 22:24, "For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help."

Psalm 24:6, "Such is the generation of those who seek him, who seek your face, God of Jacob."

Psalm 27:8-9, "My heart says of you, “Seek his face!” Your face, Lord, I will seek. Do not hide your face from me, do not turn your servant away in anger; you have been my helper. Do not reject me or forsake me, God my Savior."

Psalm 30:7, "Lord, when you favored me, you made my royal mountain stand firm; but when you hid your face, I was dismayed."

Psalm 31:16, "Let your face shine on your servant; save me in your unfailing love."

Psalm 34:16, "but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to blot out their name from the earth."

Psalm 44:3, "It was not by their sword that they won the land, nor did their arm bring them victory; it was your right hand, your arm, and the light of your face, for you loved them."

Psalm 44:24, "Why do you hide your face and forget our misery and oppression?"

Psalm 51:9, "Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity."

Psalm 67:1, "May God be gracious to us and bless us and make his face shine on us—"

Psalm 69:17, "Do not hide your face from your servant; answer me quickly, for I am in trouble."

Psalm 80:3, "Restore us, O God; make your face shine on us, that we may be saved."

Psalm 88:14, "Why, Lord, do you reject me and hide your face from me?"

Psalm 102:2, "Do not hide your face from me when I am in distress. Turn your ear to me; when I call, answer me quickly."

Psalm 104:29, "When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust."

Psalm 105:4, "Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always."

Psalm 119:58, "I have sought your face with all my heart; be gracious to me according to your promise."

Psalm 119:135, "Make your face shine on your servant and teach me your decrees."

Psalm 143:7, "Answer me quickly, Lord; my spirit fails. Do not hide your face from me or I will be like those who go down to the pit."

Isaiah 8:17, "I will wait for the Lord, who is hiding his face from the descendants of Jacob. I will put my trust in him."

Isaiah 54:8, "In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the Lord your Redeemer."

Isaiah 57:17, " was enraged by their sinful greed; I punished them, and hid my face in anger, yet they kept on in their willful ways."

Isaiah 59:2, "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."

Isaiah 64:7, "No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and have given us over to our sins."

Isaiah 65:3, "a people who continually provoke me to my very face, offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on altars of brick"

Jeremiah 18:17, "Like a wind from the east, I will scatter them before their enemies; I will show them my back and not my face in the day of their disaster.”

Jeremiah 33:5, "in the fight with the Babylonians: ‘They will be filled with the dead bodies of the people I will slay in my anger and wrath. I will hide my face from this city because of all its wickedness."

Ezekiel 7:22, "I will turn my face away from the people, and robbers will desecrate the place I treasure. They will enter it and will defile it."

Ezekiel 14:8, "I will set my face against them and make them an example and a byword. I will remove them from my people. Then you will know that I am the Lord."

Ezekiel 15:7, "I will set my face against them. Although they have come out of the fire, the fire will yet consume them. And when I set my face against them, you will know that I am the Lord."

Ezekiel 39:23-24, "And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them."

Ezekiel 39:29, "I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

Daniel 10:6, "His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude."

Hosea 5:15, "Then I will return to my lair until they have borne their guilt and seek my face— in their misery they will earnestly seek me."

Micah 3:4, "Then they will cry out to the Lord, but he will not answer them. At that time he will hide his face from them because of the evil they have done."

Matthew 17:2, "There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light."

Matthew 18:10, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

Luke 9:29, "As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning."

1 Corinthians 13:12, "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

2 Corinthians 4:6, "For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ."

1 Peter 13:12, "For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.

Revelation 1:16, "In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance."

Revelation 6:16, "They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"

Revelation 22:3-4, "No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads."

Does this put to rest the idea that God doesn't have a face? The whole idea is false and contrary to multiple words of Scripture. Witht that, I am leaving this absurd discussion.
 
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Jonaitis

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Then why does it say that God created mankind in His own image? (We have faces!) God walked in the Garden -- with no face?

We don't share the same physical appearance as God. By 'image' it refers to the nature and character of God. We are rational, intelligent, moral, creative agents that reflect the divine being. The impression of the divine image separates us from the lower animals, and this is easy to distinguish. I hope this helps!
 
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JAL

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We don't share the same physical appearance as God. By 'image' it refers to the nature and character of God. We are rational, intelligent, moral, creative agents that reflect the divine being. The impression of the divine image separates us from the lower animals, and this is easy to distinguish. I hope this helps!
That conclusion doesn't originate in Scripture. It originates in 2,000 years of Plato's influence upon the church. In Plato's (fairytale nonsense), spiritual things have no form and shape, and thus are neither physical (tangible) nor bear any resemblance to physical things. As Pescador noted, all of Scripture flies in the face (pardon the pun) of that conclusion.

Preachers can dismiss the whole Bible as anthropomorphic if they want to - but then, in that same pulpit, they should be honest to admit that their conclusions came from Plato's philosophy, not from Scripture. Jesus lamented of the Jews:

"You have never heard His voice, nor seen His shape" (Jn 5:37).

Here's a thread where I provide biblical evidence against the Platonic view of God, similar to the evidence presented by Pescador:
God Is a Physical Being
My treatment is more broad-based than Pescador's, for example I demonstrate that Paul regarded the human soul as a physical substance with a definite shape.
 
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Jonaitis

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That conclusion doesn't originate in Scripture. It originates in 2,000 years of Plato's influence upon the church. In Plato's (fairytale nonsense), spiritual things have no form and shape, and thus are neither physical (tangible) nor bear any resemblance to physical things. As Pescador noted, all of Scripture flies in the face (pardon the pun) of that conclusion.

Preachers can dismiss the whole Bible as anthropomorphic if they want to - but then, in that same pulpit, they should be honest to admit that their conclusions came from Plato's philosophy, not from Scripture. Jesus lamented of the Jews:

"You have never heard His voice, nor seen His shape" (Jn 5:37).

Here's a thread where I provide biblical evidence against the Platonic view of God, similar to the evidence presented by Pescador:
God Is a Physical Being
My treatment is more broad-based than Pescador's, for example I demonstrate that Paul regarded the human soul as a physical substance with a definite shape.

It doesn't sound like we are on the same page.

I am NOT claiming that the 'imago dei' is a formless, invisible substance at all. I am talking about qualities, not forms. We humanly reflect divine qualities - this is what is meant by being made in the image of God.
 
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JAL

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It doesn't sound like we are on the same page.

I am NOT claiming that the 'imago dei' is a formless, invisible substance at all. I am talking about qualities, not forms. We humanly reflect divine qualities - this is what is meant by being made in the image of God.
Yes you ARE saying that God is formless, invisible. This is what you wrote:

We call this anthropomorphism, the attribution of human traits, emotions, or intentions to non-human entities. God does not have a face as we do. The divine countenance is his glory, and his glory is the display of his holiness. For you to truly see his "face" is to expose yourself to the full manifestation of his holiness.
You're implying He doesn't 'really' have a face. Either that, or you're using language too unclear to count as an actual assertion. Theologians do this all the time - I call it "linguistic camouflage" meaning they deliberately use language too unclear for anyone to charge them with contradiction - how we can charge them, if we can't really understand what is being said?
 
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Jonaitis

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Yes you ARE saying that God is formless, invisible. This is what you wrote:

You're implying He doesn't 'really' have a face. Either that, or you're using language too unclear to count as an actual assertion. Theologians do this all the time - I call it "linguistic camouflage" meaning they deliberately use language too unclear for anyone to charge them with contradiction - how we can charge them, if we can't really understand what is being said?

I was super confused, I was replying about the image of God - but you're talking about my comment on anthropomorphism. Either way, your reply still makes no sense to me.

Let me clarify as to what I meant in my previous comment that you are referencing. God does not possess a body with individual parts. He is a simple spirit, a theological term that means that God's attributes are identical to himself. He doesn't have an actual arm or a leg, he doesn't have an actual face or eyes. These are human traits attributed to explain the divine nature - this is anthropomorphism. God's form doesn't have such limitations. When the Scriptures said, "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good" (Proverbs 15:3) - it doesn't literally mean that God has tangible eyes in every mountain, valley, field and sea. This is language to describe his omnipresence and omniscience. I was not talking about forms, I was talking about how God's reaction to certain circumstances are reflected in human qualities/traits to help finite creatures understand him. By 'face' is often referred to in Scripture by his glorious countenance. To behold his glory is behold his so-called 'face.' What you are saying makes no sense to the context of my post.
 
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Jonaitis

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Besides, God does not have a form that can be measured or understood. He is not an invisible blob hovering over creation. His presence does not reside in a single place. He simply IS here, transcendent to time and space. This is what is meant by omnipresent.
 
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I was super confused, I was replying about the image of God - but you're talking about my comment on anthropomorphism. Either way, your reply still makes no sense to me.

Let me clarify as to what I meant in my previous comment that you are referencing. God does not possess a body with individual parts. He is a simple spirit, a theological term that means that God's attributes are identical to himself. He doesn't have an actual arm or a leg, he doesn't have an actual face or eyes. These are human traits attributed to explain the divine nature - this is anthropomorphism. God's form doesn't have such limitations. When the Scriptures said, "The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good" (Proverbs 15:3) - it doesn't literally mean that God has tangible eyes in every mountain, valley, field and sea. This is language to describe his omnipresence and omniscience. I was not talking about forms, I was talking about how God's reaction to certain circumstances are reflected in human qualities/traits to help finite creatures understand him. By 'face' is often referred to in Scripture by his glorious countenance. To behold his glory is behold his so-called 'face.' What you are saying makes no sense to the context of my post.
Excellent articulation of DDS (Doctrine of Divine Simplicity). Good job. Plato's followers gave it the term "spirit" but, as demonstrated on my thread (I gave you the link), the English term "spirit" is not even a viable translation of the Hebrew/Greek ruach/pneuma. Meaning, in the biblical context, it's a logically impossible (i.e. self-contradictory) translation.

You know what makes NO SENSE? DDS. Example: You just said God is omnipresent. That's funny, because DDS asserts that He has no size and shape. How can His presence extend throughout the entire universe if it has no extension in space?

A VALID theory of omnipresence, as noted on my thread, is that God's Presence is physically spread more or less sparsely throughout the universe. He has His hand on every particle of matter - that's all that's necessary for Him to qualify as the quintessential Ruler. He doesn't need to measure up to some impossible Platonic standard.
 
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By 'face' is often referred to in Scripture by his glorious countenance. To behold his glory is behold his so-called 'face.'
This is what I mean by linguistic camouflage. He has a glorious countenance but no face? No one can make sense of these kinds of statements.

If you're not going to articulate in words that people can comprehend, maybe better to keep silent?
 
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Excellent articulation of DDS (Doctrine of Divine Simplicity). Good job. Plato's followers gave it the term "spirit" but, as demonstrated on my thread (I gave you the link), the English term "spirit" is not even a viable translation of the Hebrew/Greek ruach/pneuma. Meaning, in the biblical context, it's a logically impossible (i.e. self-contradictory) translation.

You know what makes NO SENSE? DDS. Example: You just said God is omnipresent. That's funny, because DDS asserts that He has no size and shape. How can His presence extend throughout the entire universe if it has no extension in space?

A VALID theory of omnipresence, as noted on my thread, is that God's Presence is physically spread more or less sparsely throughout the universe. He has His hand on every particle of matter - that's all that's necessary for Him to qualify as the quintessential Ruler. He doesn't need to measure up to some impossible Platonic standard.

Wait, you don't believe in the doctrine of divine simplicity, and you believe that it originated with Plato, is that correct? Now, I am understanding.

I found this video helpful to someone like yourself struggling with this profound truth:

Dr. James Dolezal: Divine Simplicity and the Grammar of Classical Christian Orthodoxy
 
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