I keep being told that God objects to abortion...

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Bond-servant of Christ

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There is nothing anywhere in the bible that discusses abortion, mentions abortion, or gives us any indication of God's opinion of it

The Fifth Commandment says: "You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13)

Murder: "to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice" (Websters Dictionary)

Which includes abortion. Only God has the Right to take a life. So God does have a say on this.

"And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.” (Job 1:21)

"‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand" (Deuteronomy 32:39)
 
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Inkfingers

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Define "immoral." For that matter, define "moral."

I was quoting the word used by the poster that I was responding to.

Did you not read their post and see that? Or are you deliberately ignoring that they did so in order for you to make your own...comment?
 
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Inkfingers

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There’s a difference between murder and killing. When God sanctions it, it’s not murder. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. Obviously if it was commanded by God it wasn’t an unlawful killing.

I never said anything about unlawful.

Just that if infanticide was always wrong in all circumstances, God would not command Joshua to engage in it...
 
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bekkilyn

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The Fifth Commandment says: "You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13)

Murder: "to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice" (Websters Dictionary)

Which includes abortion. Only God has the Right to take a life. So God does have a say on this.

"And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.” (Job 1:21)

"‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand" (Deuteronomy 32:39)

Murder requires the killing of another *person*. A fertilized egg, as one example, is not a person. Also, women typically do not harbor malice towards the unborn, but simply wish to end the pregnancy, preferably sooner than later.

None of the verses you quoted have anything whatsoever to do with abortion or God's opinion of it. It's simply an attempt to use God to justify your own opinion of it.
 
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Inkfingers

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If your argument had merit, then there would be no grounds for an outright ban on any manner of homicide, because the verse you cite is a command to kill every kind of human. It just happens that there's only one kind of human you might want to kill...for now, and that directs the focus of your argument.

There is no outright ban on killing; as killing in self-defence is legal.

I'm seeing such an aversion to truth in so many posts here. The facts are simple:

God commanded Joshua to engage in infanticide.
Therefore infanticide is not inherently wrong.
Therefore abortion (which is infanticide) is not inherently wrong.
 
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RDKirk

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I was quoting the word used by the poster that I was responding to.

Did you not read their post and see that? Or are you deliberately ignoring that they did so in order for you to make your own...comment?

You used it in a question. Presumably, then, you accepted it as a word. Before your question can be answered, it's necessary to know what the word means to you.
 
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St_Worm2

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Perhaps this commentary from the NRSV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible can help to explain the passage in Exodus you quoted (Exodus 21:22-25)
Hello again Bekkilyn, I don't have the time to properly reply to you right now, but I will make a point or two for now (until I'm able to get back to you about the rest). Just so we'll have it to refer to, here is the commentary that you posited for us from the NRSV Study Bible.

There are two possible understandings of this verse, both having to do with who sustains serious injury—the fetus or the mother. Ancient Near Eastern parallels to this law suggest the mother is in view. Four other law codes address the issue of a man’s striking a pregnant woman and causing her to miscarry. All stipulate monetary penalties that the assailant must pay in order to compensate the family for the loss of the child. Three of these codes go on to consider what to do if the woman is killed by the blow. In two, the man who struck the blow is to be killed. In another, the daughter of the man is killed, since the law assumes that he struck the pregnant daughter of another man. Only once is the death of the fetus linked to a death penalty: If the husband of the victimized woman has no sons and the fetus is male, the perpetrator is to be killed. In light of the provisions in these other codes, it seems likely that this law in Exodus follows their general pattern. The law calls for a fine in this verse, probably as compensation for the fetus. It then addresses possible “serious injury” to the woman. If she dies, the perpetrator dies—“life for life” (v. 23). Otherwise, the perpetrator will suffer a punishment similar to that inflicted on the woman (vv. 24–25).
The RSV/NRSV are guilty of a "miscarriage of translation" (pun definitely intended ;)) in Exodus 21:22, because the death of the child is assumed by their (what I believe to be errant) translation of "yatsaʾ" (וְיָצְאוּ) as "miscarriage" (which would be handy indeed from the pro-abortion POV because it would change the meaning of the rest of the passage to favor that position).

As for the other four law codes that were mentioned, I wish the NRSV Study Bible told us which ones they were referring to (though I do not doubt that what they say is true of them .. I suspect, for instance, that one of the four is the Babylonian Talmud which does speak of financial compensation for the death of an unborn child). Of course, man-made codes or law, while often interesting and informative, are not what we use to determine the meaning of a passage from the Bible :preach:

More tomorrow, hopefully and Dv (I will have to see how much time is left after we take our granddaughter back home).

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - as long as we are going with non-Biblical works, here's something that is interesting from a 1st Century Christian source, just FYI.

2. "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods". ~The Didache (AD 70) "The Lord's teaching to the heathen by the Twelve Apostles", Section II/Part 2.
.
 
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SamanthaAnastasia

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This is going to sound harsh but I really think abortion is not going to be made illegal again. The world and the US is just too sacraligous. So we have to focus on not judging those who have had abortions and creating ways to prevent abortions from happening in the first place ie more sex education, low/free birth control, lower cost adoption. I disagree with birth control and sex before marriage but sex education can and should be based in science (only in reference to heterosexual couples because homosexuality is even against science)
 
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Inkfingers

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You used it in a question. Presumably, then, you accepted it as a word. Before your question can be answered, it's necessary to know what the word means to you.

It was used in response to the person who used it.

My response was to them, and their usage.

Do you not know the difference, or are you being deliberately perverse? As I notice that you have not question THEM on their usage of the word, I'm going to go with the latter...
 
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tturt

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God has a plan even the time and place of our births:
-“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)

He formed us:
-“For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
-“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
-"I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6
-"Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Mal 2;10
 
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Strong in Him

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...but then I read Deuteronomy 2:33-34 and see that He sanctioned infanticide without any problem.

How do people reconcile those two stances?

Israel was given the victory over their enemies; God delivered them into their hands. Maybe that was his judgement on those who opposed his chosen people. It might even have been that the Israelites went too far in killing the babies.
But this is not the same as a woman deciding to end the life of a child.
 
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GirdYourLoins

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Genesis 18:32 probably gives a better indication of Gods judgement. You have chosen an example where God has judged a nation due to hundreds of years of sin where no one was blameless. In this verse God says he will spare Sodom if 10 righteous people are found.
 
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Bond-servant of Christ

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Murder requires the killing of another *person*. A fertilized egg, as one example, is not a person. Also, women typically do not harbor malice towards the unborn, but simply wish to end the pregnancy, preferably sooner than later.

None of the verses you quoted have anything whatsoever to do with abortion or God's opinion of it. It's simply an attempt to use God to justify your own opinion of it.

are you pro life? do you know when life actually begins in the womb?

Here is a passage from the Book of Exodus, which, I believe can be used for abortion

"22“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out (Either a live birth or a miscarriage), but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23But if there is harm (fatality), then you shall pay life for life" (chapter 21)

If, in the case of a "miscarriage", or "premature birth", due to an "accident (unintentional)" caused by the pregnant woman being hurt, the offenders were punished; or, in the worse case, their was a "fatality", and the unborn child dies, and "life for life" was the punishment. If this is the requirement for this accidential case, surely in the case of a "wilful, predetermined" abortion, there must be a higher penalty.
 
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Bond-servant of Christ

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Here's another one for you to chew on OP: God told us not to be jealous and yet it is ok for Him to be jealous.

Also read Rom 9:20-21

and WHO do you think that you are? How DARE anyone ever question how the Great God of the Holy Bible does things??? Does not He, the giver of all live, have the RIGHT to do as He pleases with His OWN Creation? "Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?" (Romans 9:21). Look at the JUST action of the Lord in
Numbers 16:20-35; in this the Lord, IS 100% Just and Right! As is ALL of what He does, or allows!
 
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Inkfingers

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Israel was given the victory over their enemies; God delivered them into their hands. Maybe that was his judgement on those who opposed his chosen people. It might even have been that the Israelites went too far in killing the babies.
But this is not the same as a woman deciding to end the life of a child.

Infanticide is infanticide.

If God allows it even once it means that there is no absolute prohibition against it.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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...but then I read Deuteronomy 2:33-34 and see that He sanctioned infanticide without any problem.

How do people reconcile those two stances?

Interesting, I thought the pro abortion argument has always been the fetus is not a living person thus its not murder as people claim.

Infanticide means the taking of a life. Taking life is murder. You say that "well Christians have done it before"... ok well many people pagan and Christian have done many horrible things including murder but that doesn't make it right now does it?

Abortion is still wrong and no it is not sanctioned nor permitted. You quoting Deuteronomy is ridiculous, because Deuteronomy also says stoning of rebellious kids is ok, and women should sacrifice doves after menstrual cycles. You just want justification for your personal feelings
 
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BrotherD

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...but then I read Deuteronomy 2:33-34 and see that He sanctioned infanticide without any problem.

How do people reconcile those two stances?

God does kill but it is not the same as murder. God judges righteously and is very thorough in his judgments. When man does abortion it is murder. When one goes to the abortion clinic they have it in their minds to get rid of the child.
 
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BrotherD

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Your "evidence" is that God has killed infants in the Bible. Yes, but thats the difference! God who is creator and ruler of all kills! When the Lord kills it is always for just and right reasons. He is the perfect, sinless, God almighty! Im surprised you didn't bring up the flood where God killed the whole world but one righteous family.... I hear that one a lot from people questioning God's character.

I agree with your whole post but this stuck out. People seem to forget that God is a righteous Judge. We can take a look at Revelation 16 and see when the last plagues are poured out on the earth what does the scripture say about this:

Revelation 16:5-7
[5]And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
[6]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
[7]And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

True and righteous are his judgments. Murdering a baby is unacceptable for any reason.
 
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