BobRyan

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Peter in Acts 15 answers the claim that gentiles must be circumcised

Indeed but he does not argue that not following the ceremonial law also means ignoring the moral law of God - the TEN Commandments (that unique unit of Law -- kept inside the ark, written on stone, the one in which "the first commandment with a promise" is the fifth commandment. Eph 6:1-2)

It just does not get - any easier than this.
 
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BobRyan

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1,000s of so called, end times / revelation 'experts' ;)

Noticing that other people read the Bible including the book of Revelation - is not the same as reading it and contributing to that study.
 
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BobRyan

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Like i have stated before, Revelation is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood book in the Bible!

Is this because you are familiar with doing that - or because you have found a way to avoid doing it?

Suppose there is a discussion thread on translating the first 2 chapters of Genesis from Hebrew to Chinese and I find that there are a few different views on the best way of doing it...

I then start posting over and over - "I don't know much about this but I see there are conflicting views... I doubt that anyone knows more than me ."

And I just keep posting that over and over. How does that contribute?
 
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BobRyan

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And the someone who 'supposedly does' understand it you can multiply by 1,000,000 and also their 'understandings' and 'interpretations' by 1,000,000! ;)

we can all multiply.

But the point remains that having someone out there that does not have the right understanding of the book of Revelation is not what will make "breaking news" for today.

It is knowing what God is warning us about that matters... not the various little groups that might not have figured it out.

Nah, the problem is that pretty much everyone has "the right understanding of the book of Revelation" and almost none of them agree on what it is. "

Or is it that 25 million of them agree and then there are others that do not agree??
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The two love commands are not equivalent to the ten.
Depends if you believe the bible. According to the scriptures God's Love is expressed by faith through obedience to God's law. Paul teaches this in Romans 13:8-10 when he writes; [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW. [9], For this, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, IT IS BRIEFLY COMPREHENDED IN THIS SAYING, NAMELY, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

James follows the same theme in James 2:8-12 when he writes...

[8], If you fulfill the ROYAL LAW according to the scripture, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF, YOU DO WELL:[9], But IF YOU HAVE RESPECT TO PERSONS, YOU COMMIT SIN, AND ARE CONVINCED OF THE LAW AS TRANSGRESSORS. [10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW. [12], So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James and Paul are only referring to what JESUS already taught in the Gospels when he taught his disciples about love and law from the old covenant scriptures of Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 when he taught his disciples in Matthew 22:36-40 [36], MASTER, WHICH IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW? [37], Jesus said to him, YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. [38], THIS IS THE FIRST AND GREAT COMMANDMENT. [39], And the second is like to it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Notice the context of the question being asked? JESUS is quoting from "MASTER, WHICH IS THE GREAT COMMANDMENT IN THE LAW? Jesus quotes love to God as the first and loving our neighbor as the second and then says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS". In the law JESUS is quoting from the old testament laws that sum up God's 10 commandments from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.
The ten commands you want so badly to remain under, are called by Paul in 2 Corinthians 3, the letter that kills, the ministry of death, and the ministry of condemnation given to Moses on two tables of stone, that has ended, replaced by the law of the spirit. The Decalogue is the letter that kills, and ministry of death, because the death penalty is required for breaking them. The law requires them to stone to death, those who break it.
You have a misinterpretation of the scriptures here. According to the scriptures in Romans 3:20, No one is "Under the law" according to the scriptures unless we stand guilty before God of breaking them. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of words lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit however according to James it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and Jesus says our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 if our faith has no fruit. 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about the old and new covenants and the ministration of the law written on stone and it's "ministration" of death because the wages of sin is death and continues to be so in the new covenant *Romans 6:23. The "ministration" of the Spirit however in the new covenant is life from this death Romans 8:1-5; Romans 6:1-23 Galatians 5:16 by the gift of grace by God's dear son. 2 Corinthians 3 says no where that God's 10 commandments have been abolished it is the ministration of death that has been abolished through the ministration of the Spirit to those who have God's law written on the heart by faith that works by love *2 Corinthians 3:3-4; Hebrews 8:10-12 (from Jeremiah 31:31-35 and Ezekiel 36:25-27)
Killed any sabbath breakers lately? Then your not properly keeping the ten commands, but only part of the law.
To be honest I do not know why people try to claim if you keep the Sabbath you need to kill people that do not keep the Sabbath. This is a silly statement but here is why I say this. If we examine the scriptures you will see this is a silly argument. The reason I say this is that under the civil laws of ISRAEL God's people received the death penalty for breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments they were not unique to God's 4th commandment only (see [1] Deuteronomy 13:6-18; 1 Samuel 26:19; [2]Deuteronomy 13:1-10; 17:2-5; 27:15; 7:25-26; [3] Leviticus 24:10-17; [4] Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2; [5] Leviticus 20:9; Deuteronomy 21:18-21; Exodus 21:17; [6] Exodus 21:12-14; [7]Leviticus 20; John 8:5; [8] Exodus 21:16; [9] Deuteronomy 19:15-21; [10] Joshua 7:21-25). This was to teach God's people that the wages of sin is death. This was under old covenant law for the nation of ISRAEL. We are not in the old covenant now but the new covenant. The wages of sin in the new covenant is still death to those who continue to knowingly practice it *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; Revelation 21:7-8 but JESUS says vengeance is his and will be administered at the second coming *Romans 12:19; Revelation 22:11-12 and reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-31.
In Galatians 4:21-31 Paul compares two covenants, and says the covenant given on Mount Sinai is bondage
Actually no. Read the context of Galatians 4 in Galatians 4:1-5 the bondage being referred to here is sin not the law. Paul calls the law "holy, just and good" in Romans 7:12. We are redeemed from sin not the law *Galatians 4:5. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is if it is broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. The Galatians according to Galatians 4:8-9 were returning to the bondage of sin where they were recently delivered from and this is the context of Galatians 4:21-31. The Galatians were seeking to be saved by the works of the law when we are all sinners in need of a Savior. No one has said to you that we are saved by the works of the law so you have no argument. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of words lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit however according to James it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and Jesus says our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 if our faith has no fruit.
Peter in Acts 15 answers the claim that gentiles must be circumcised and follow the law of Moses, and states that that law was a yoke that neither there fathers, nor themselves, could bear.
Indeed, the ceremonial laws of Moses and circumcision are not God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken under the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7. Paul and Acts 15 is not saying God's 10 commandments are abolished it is saying the "circumcision" is not a requirement for salvation which is the question being considered in context to Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2. Perhaps you need to also consider what Paul wrote after the Jerusalem meeting to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 7:19 when he says; [19], Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. I pray that you might see this is a contradiction to what you are teaching.

Hope this helps
 
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Lost4words

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Noticing that other people read the Bible including the book of Revelation - is not the same as reading it and contributing to that study.

Contributing or pushing people down the wrong path?
 
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Lost4words

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Is this because you are familiar with doing that - or because you have found a way to avoid doing it?

Suppose there is a discussion thread on translating the first 2 chapters of Genesis from Hebrew to Chinese and I find that there are a few different views on the best way of doing it...

I then start posting over and over - "I don't know much about this but I see there are conflicting views... I doubt that anyone knows more than me ."

And I just keep posting that over and over. How does that contribute?

I have seen it constantly. People who think only their view of scripture is the correct one.
 
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BobRyan

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I have seen it constantly. People who think only their view of scripture is the correct one.

In your study of such things does it keep turning out that 4 or 5 different ones are all correct?
 
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Jipsah

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Indeed but he does not argue that not following the ceremonial law also means ignoring the moral law of God - the TEN Commandments (that unique unit of Law -- kept inside the ark, written on stone, the one in which "the first commandment with a promise" is the fifth commandment. Eph 6:1-2) It just does not get - any easier than this.
Is that along with the 11th commandment not to eat pork chops?
 
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Jipsah

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Or is it that 25 million of them agree and then there are others that do not agree??
If you're looking to establish truth by popular vote, based on your count I think you just lost the election. Since the majority of Christians are RCC, the vote-getter is probably going to be that "The Book of Revelation is not a prophecy of some future or imminent return of Christ. It is a symbolic record of the victory of the Church over the world of evil especially during the days of the Roman Empire." The RCC wins with 98% of the votes cast. But you can always demand a recount.
 
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Jipsah

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I have seen it constantly. People who think only their view of scripture is the correct one.
Of course they do, they'd be insane if they held to a position that they believed to be wrong.

A lot of questions admit of only two answers, a correct one and an incorrect one. eg, what's the sum of 2+2? In a difference of opinion on such a question, there are two possible outcomes, either one party is correct and the other not, or they're both incorrect. In an argument the sum of 2+2, if one says 5 and the other 3, well, there ya are,

An argument over the Revelation is a lot more complex than that, with lots of opportunity for everyone to be out to lunch. How many fire-breathing horses will there be? Are those horses literal or symbolic? Are the troopers riding them Chinese, demons, or other? Who was the Revelator writing to, his contemporaries, us, the 7 Churches, just for practice, other? The Beast was/is the Pope, every US president ever elected, David Hasselhoff. Our Lord cannot return until the Temple is rebuilt, a Global Government is established, someone in Israel finds a really nice red cow, Millwall is promoted to the Premier League.

There's a nearly endless supply of stuff to be wrong about in the Revelation, which fact does nothing at all to deter people from announcing that They Know What It All Really Means, especially if they have a new soon-to-be-remaindered pop-theology paperback about to drop.
 
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BobRyan

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And the someone who 'supposedly does' understand it you can multiply by 1,000,000 and also their 'understandings' and 'interpretations' by 1,000,000! ;)

we can all multiply.

But the point remains that having someone out there that does not have the right understanding of the book of Revelation is not what will make "breaking news" for today.

It is knowing what God is warning us about that matters... not the various little groups that might not have figured it out.

Nah, the problem is that pretty much everyone has "the right understanding of the book of Revelation" and almost none of them agree on what it is. "

Or is it that 25 million of them agree and then there are others that do not agree??

If you're looking to establish truth by popular vote,

It was a direct response to your "almost none of them agree" statement.

obviously.
 
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BobRyan

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Peter in Acts 15 answers the claim that gentiles must be circumcised

Indeed but he does not argue that not following the ceremonial law also means ignoring the moral law of God - the TEN Commandments (that unique unit of Law -- kept inside the ark, written on stone, the one in which "the first commandment with a promise" is the fifth commandment. Eph 6:1-2)

It just does not get - any easier than this.

Is that along with the 11th commandment not to eat pork chops?

My post does not say "Exodus 20 is the only chapter in the Bible"
 
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BobRyan

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I have seen it constantly. People who think only their view of scripture is the correct one.

In your study of such things does it keep turning out that 4 or 5 different ones are all correct?

No, just mine.

So it is your view that having 4 or 5 different views - only one can be correct?

My point exactly.
 
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Jipsah

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So it is your view that having 4 or 5 different views - only one can be correct?
No, it's that they all may very well be incorrect, even mine. Even... (gasp!) yours! And the more complex the topic under discussion, then on average the greater number of opinions that will be ridiculously wrong. The number of people who are dead solid certain that their belief is completely correct probably won't vary.
 
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chad kincham

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Indeed but he does not argue that not following the ceremonial law also means ignoring the moral law of God - the TEN Commandments (that unique unit of Law -- kept inside the ark, written on stone, the one in which "the first commandment with a promise" is the fifth commandment. Eph 6:1-2)

It just does not get - any easier than this.

The same apostle who said love fulfills all the law, thus the two love commands are the ones we keep in the new covenant.

The Old Covenant ten has been replaced by the two love commands, neither of which include the requirement to keep the 7th day, or any day.


The two love commands are different from the old ten, because they are kept out of love, not out of fear of the punishment of death by stoning for breaking them.


When the New Testament mentions keeping the commandments, it’s NOT the Decalogue that is meant, but the TWO love commands:


The scripture makes it clear, that love fulfills the law of God.


Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore LOVE isthe FULFILLING OF THE LAW.


And this:

Mat 22:36 Master, which isthe great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 JESUS SAID unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second islike unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these TWO commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.


One big difference between the old ten, and the two love commands, is that the two love commands far exceed how well you treat your neighbor.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The same apostle who said love fulfills all the law, thus the two love commands are the ones we keep in the new covenant.

The Old Covenant ten has been replaced by the two love commands, neither of which include the requirement to keep the 7th day, or any day.


The two love commands are different from the old ten, because they are kept out of love, not out of fear of the punishment of death by stoning for breaking them.


When the New Testament mentions keeping the commandments, it’s NOT the Decalogue that is meant, but the TWO love commands:


The scripture makes it clear, that love fulfills the law of God.


Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore LOVE isthe FULFILLING OF THE LAW.


And this:

Mat 22:36 Master, which isthe great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 JESUS SAID unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second islike unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these TWO commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets.


One big difference between the old ten, and the two love commands, is that the two love commands far exceed how well you treat your neighbor.

I suggest you read post # 45 linked that was addressed to you which addresses this post of yours in detail. Love is not separated from God's law it works through it. Scriptures have already been provided in the linked post as a help to you. No one loves God by breaking his commandments in fact the scriptures teach the opposite *John 14:15; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-31. Love is simply God's new covenant promise to those who believe and follow God's Word not to those who do not believe and do not follow *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 10:26-27.
 
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chad kincham

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I suggest you read post # 45 linked that was addressed to you which addresses this post of yours in detail. Love is not separated from God's law it works through it. Scriptures have already been provided in the linked post as a help to you. No one loves God by breaking his commandments in fact the scriptures teach the opposite *John 14:15; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-31. Love is simply God's new covenant promise to those who believe and follow God's Word not to those who do not believe and do not follow *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 10:26-27.

You’re still wrong

The ten commands and the law were an external set of rules, kept out of fear of punishment, and it was deliberately harsh and meant to be bondage, to contrast between the new covenant of grace, and the old covenant of trying to work to earn righteousness.

The new covenant is spiritual, it’s Gods law written on our heart, the law of love, that supersedes the old covenant completely.

The law of Moses is not meant for a righteous person, but for the ungodly, for sinners, for murderers, etc.: because it exists to show the unsaved what sin IS.


1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a RIGHTEOUS man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for THE UNGODLY and for SINNERS , for UNHOLY and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Christians are not ungodly anymore, but are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, thus we’ve died to the law.


Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have DIED TO THE LAW through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.


Rom 7:5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, AROUSED BY THE LAW, were at work in our members to bear fruit for DEATH.


Rom 7:6 But now we are RELEASED from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the NEW way of the SPIRIT and not in the OLD way of the written code.


For Christians only, (not the ungodly) Jesus nailed the law of Moses to His cross and took it out of our way:


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


And the law of Moses was temporary until Christ came:


Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made (Jesus Christ), and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.


Gal 3:23 But BEFORE faith came, we were KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


Gal 3:24 Wherefore THE LAW was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Gal 3:25 But AFTER that faith is come, we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster.


Christians have the fruit of the spirit, instead of the letter of the law, which is why for us THERE IS NO LAW, of Moses for us:


Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such THERE IS NO LAW.

The law of Moses is in effect for the unrighteous, the ungodly, the unholy - but not in effect for Christians who have Gods law, the law of love stated by the two love commands, in their hearts.
 
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