Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

sovereigngrace said:

That is totally wrong. Revelation is not a chronological unfolding of end-time events, but is a series of recapitulations or retelling of events that culminate in the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Revelation 6-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the Coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

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CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

John wrote, "After this I looked..."What does "after" tell us? Simply that God had FINISHED dictating to John letters for the churches, and now was about to change direction in the vision and call Him up to heaven. So far it is JOHN in 95 AD. By the way, I call it a vision, not a cycle. Again, 95 AD NOT anything about a coming.

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

You missed a very important part - but you have lots of company for most people miss the message of chapters 4 & 5. They are the CONTEXT of the seals.
This is a VISION seen by John in 95 AD, but that is not the time of the events IN the vision.

1. Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father: TIME? While He was on earth.
2. The Holy Spirit SEEN in the throne room. TIME? Before Jesus was baptized
3. A search for one worthy to open the seals TIME? Before Jesus rose from the dead.
4. Next search finds Jesus worthy: TIME? Jesus just rose from the dead.
5. John sees Jesus ascend to the throne room: TIME? After sending Mary away.
6. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit down. TIME? As soon as He ascended.
7. Jesus gets the book into HIS hands and begins immediately to open seals. TIME? Around 32 AD.

Cycles from the letters to the vision? No, both are in John's time of 95 AD or so. In the vision, the first thing John received was dictation of messages to the churches.

iamlamad said:

You cannot seem to even accept and understand the very first introductory verse that tells us what the genre is. You start out most posts by criticizing the poster. Why is that? I know! You think you are the only one here with TRUTH. Well, that is your opinion. The ONLY reason you would say this is because what I write disagrees with your preconceived theories. What if it is YOU who are mistaken? The truth is, there is NOTHING in 1:1 that says the entire book is figurative or symbolic. Just the opposite is true, the book is to SHOW what the future is. Some people make a big thing about the word "signify." It only means "to indicate" or "to make known.

Act 25:27 For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify G4591 the crimes laid against him. [to indicate or show the crimes]

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified G4591 by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. [to indicate or show what the Spirit said]

Jhn 21:19 This spake he, signifying G4591 by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. [To indicate or show by what death]

Jhn 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying G4591 what death he should die. [To indicate or show by what death]

Jhn 12:33 This he said, signifying G4591 what death he should die. [To indicate or show by what death]

We all have access to Strongs. I guess you missed that John 4:48 uses a DIFFERENT word. They both have the same root word, but these are two different words: "sēmainō" a verb and "sēmeion," a noun.

Don't try to make this complicated: the book is to SHOW, to indicate to the church what is coming in the future. Some of it - NOT ALL - is symbolic. We know a beast does not normally have seven heads. We all SHOULD know that God can write "a thousand" and mean it as 1000 years.

You seem to have no grasp of apocalyptic language. Again, the reason you say such things is because you imagine you have truth and everyone else has fables. It may well be, others here have a better grasp of apocalyptic language that you do. I understand, typically putting others down makes a writer feel better.

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Why try to make something that is translated into simple English into "apocalyptic language?" The truth is, there is NOTHING "apocalyptic" about this verse. I doubt seriously if you can find an English translation anywhere that does not include a thousand years. Untold millions of believers read that and believe it means a thousand years. They don't even question it. Others though, struggle with it, and WONDER: can it really mean one thousand years? Can you find a verse that contradicts this simple prediction?

That is why your doctrine contradicts so much other Scripture This is personal opinion and cannot be proven. Oh, it may contradict what some IMAGINE is the truth of scripture, due to their preconceptions. I believe John when He tells us that Satan WILL BE bound for a thousand years. I have enough common sense to recognize that Satan is IN NO WAY "bound" today.

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Your argument seems to resort down to: many believe what you believe. I could use the same argument. That is not an argument. That is totally inadmissible. The whole genre of Revelation is figurative. Most objective people see that.

iamlamad said:

For example, John saw the raptured church in heaven, in chapter 7, but we get most of our information about the rapture from Paul, for Paul is the only one that got the revelation of the rapture.

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John saw the "souls" of the dead in heaven in the verse below. Many of our dead Brothers, and Sisters are there now. They did not get there through the Pretrib rapture.

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


John also sees them in chapter 7. They are still in heaven below.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

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sovereigngrace said:

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

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So, in your opinion, angels are instructing Christ what to do when and where, rather than the other way around? That seems to put angels in a higher position than Christ since your interpretation here has angels instructing Christ what to do and when. But if we were to compare with something such as the following instead, it appears to contradict your interpretation here.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

According to this passage, and the fact Jesus being the speaker here, Jesus tells us that He is not a reaper in the end of the age, the angels are. Jesus tells us that angels aren't sending Jesus forth to do anything involving reaping, Jesus is telling us here that He is sending forth his angels to do these things involving reaping.


And the strange thing about it, in 2 Peter 3:8, for example, you argue a simile is meant. So why aren't you arguing a simile is meant here as well---and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man?


Why am I even bothering bringing this up? Mainly because, in my mind, if someone is wrong about something they submitted, and can be shown to be wrong, such I showed above, one then has to wonder what all else are they might be wrong about?

sovereigngrace said:

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

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You have no proof Seal 6 is the destruction of the world. It is not even as big as the final earthquake. No army meets God on the throne in seal 6, because no one even knows the day and hour it will happen. This is not the battle of Armageddon!!! How can the world end before the battle of Armageddon?

Timtofly said:

The church is complete and presented to God in Revelation 6. The next time we see the church is in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21. So chapters 8 to 20 have nothing to do with the church; not literally, figuratively, nor historically (recap).

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.


The Capitol "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

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sovereigngrace said:

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

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This is closer to the battle of Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet starts 4 days before Satan gets his 42 months. It ends at the battle of Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet covers a lot of things, because it lasts for 42 months and 8 days. The rewards are handed out in heaven while Satan destroys the earth. Then Satan and company is defeated at Armageddon. Satan is bound for 1000 years, and humanity is sent to Death. Only the FP and beast (AC) are sent to the lake of fire 1000 years early.

sovereigngrace said:

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

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Well as pre-mill state for this 1000 years, Christ is the shepherd of the sheep, not the church. Some get it wrong. Denying it happens is the wrong direction of correction. Revelation 20 declares a resurrection of the sheep. Not the church. The church is sitting on the thrones judging those sheep just resurrected.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

The Bible destroying the Amill doctrine in less than 60 seconds:

"And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a one-thousand year period (Greek: χίλιοι chílioi).

And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the one-thousand year period (Greek: χίλιοι chílioi) should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a one-thousand year period (Greek: χίλιοι chílioi).

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the one-thousand year period (Greek: χίλιοι chílioi) was finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a one-thousand year period (Greek: χίλιοι chílioi).

And when the one-thousand year period (Greek: χίλιοι chílioi) has expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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Since neither Jesus, in the gospels, nor the apostles in the epistles teach about a future literal 1,000 year reign that separates 2 future bodily resurrections, do you believe this is new information revealed to John?

The only bodily resurrections I can find in the gospels and epistles is Jesus as the first, separated by a period of time, leading up the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous.

So either this passage is literal and must be new information previously unrevealed to the apostles or it's parabolic for Christ 1st advent and the church.

Timtofly said:

The 7th Trumpet covers a lot of things, because it lasts for 42 months and 8 days. The rewards are handed out in heaven while Satan destroys the earth.

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Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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sovereigngrace said:

Your argument seems to resort down to: many believe what you believe. I could use the same argument. That is not an argument. That is totally inadmissible. The whole genre of Revelation is figurative. Most objective people see that.

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Even if John wrote literal words from and about 2020 AD, all of the 1st century and on would think it alien language, until those in 2020 AD read the text and actually saw what John was declaring. How would you describe today to those in the 1st century? Would they understand you?

sovereigngrace said:

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
The End!!!

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This is one man's opinion of what these verses mean. Anyone can have an opinion.
Did this opinion consider the CONTEXT? No.

How can ANYONE hope to end up with correct theories when they ignore the context and pull verses out of that context? It is very difficult!

The context (chapters 4 & 5) PROVES Jesus opened the first seal around 32 AD as soon as He ascended. Therefore, the first seal has NOTHING to do with the "second advent." It is seal on a very important BOOK. The book is a LEGAL DOCUMENT created in the court room of heaven. NO event written in any seal would be legal unless or until that seal is opened. What then does the first seal represent - a righteous entity in 32 AD? (John used "white" 17 times in Revelation, and 16 times to represent righteousness or holiness.)

The first seal is to represent the CHURCH, sent out around 32 AD shortly after Jesus rose from the dead. (I know it is in reality 95 AD when John saw this vision, but the time IN THE VISION is early church, as proven by the context. )

Since Satan was the god of this world when the church was sent out - and STILL IS - would he allow the church to spread the gospel with no fight? Of course not! That is why the church must conquer and overcome. This rider was wearing a crown of ultimate victory, meaning, NO DEFEAT EVER! The church will be triumphant!

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the church and the gospel. God has LIMITED their theater of operation to only 1/4 the world: of course that 1/4 would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. In other words, Satan could start wars, create famines, use prestilence, and wild beasts to stop the advance of the gospel, but could not use these outside of the 1/4 God limited them to.
TIME? The entire church age. Satan is STILL trying to hinder the advance of the gospel.

Seal 5: STILL church age, still not talking about the "2nd advent." Seal 5 is about the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. But seal five time will END with the pretrib rapture that will END the church age. Day of the Lord martyrs or 70th week martyrs will be a different group: they are shown in chapter 15 and chapter 20.
Martyrs are still being killed, so we are here at the 5th seal today.

Seal 6: the Start of the Day of the Lord, so FUTURE to us today.

When one understands that seal 6 is BEFORE ANY PART of the 70th week, they know it is NOT "total destruction." That theory is myth. It IS the start of wrath. Some say the WARNING that Wrath is imminent. I would not argue. If so, then Wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment. It is obvious to a careful bible student that the real destruction starts with the trumpet judgments. It is the HURT talked about in chapter 7.

Now that we are at chapter 7, why did John go into an intermission after the 6th seal? Why not continue on with the 7th? I think many have no understanding why.

Have you ever been to a play where they close the curtains between acts of the play? What happens behind that curtain, that they don't want people to see? They are rearranging the setting to fit the next act.

The next act: it will be the start of the HURT in earth and on its inhabitants. (Rev. 8). The last "set" is the church still on earth, and the 144,000 UNPROTECTED.. This must be changed! The setting must be rearranged for the next act: HURT coming. So John closes the curtain, so to speak, and in the vision God gets the 144,000 sealed for their protection, then calls the church up to heaven, out of His wrath to come.

By the way, it will probably take Jesus only seconds to open a seal. But depending on what seal, the reading and then the doing of that seal may take a short time, or be ongoing as the church spreading the gospel in seal 1.

Next, seal six is NOT THE LAST SEAL. The book cannot be opened (to reveal the trumpets) until the 7th seal. Therefore it is a HUGE MYTH to imagine the 6th seal and the end of anything. It is the START of the DAY.

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.
Lets be scriptural, not imaginative.
First, there will be an earthquake, but NO WHERE NEAR as bad as the earthquake at the 7th vial that ends the week. No one really knows what happens when the sky is rolled up. But considering it is not even the final seal, common sense tells us people survive. However, you have the basic idea down: the HURT will not start until the 144,000 are sealed: our Father's name on their forehead. Then, the church seen in heaven. WRATH is about to begin!

Therefore, "the end" is only MYTH. There are chapters of events still to go after the 6th seal: 7 trumpets and 7 vials to name some.

sovereigngrace said:

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

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Sorry to say, but this is simply more myth. Yes, Paul did say the rapture would come at the "last trump," but did not indicate WHAT SERIES of trumpets his "last trump" would be of. With careful study, many have concluded it is none other than the final trumpet at the Feast of trumpets. First, it is the ONLY feast where "no man knows the day nor the hour." It CANNOT start until two witnesses testify that they have SEEN the sliver of a new moon with their own eyes and reported it to the High Priest. I have heard rumors that in Israel that call the long, final trumpet blast that closes this feast as "the last trump."

It is MUCH wiser to just follow John's chronology and not use imagination to second guess him.
A. Seals SEAL a book so it cannot be opened. Yet, heaven's goal is to get that book OPENED. Why? Because what is written in the book will get Satan kicked off his throne as god of this world. Or, as Jesus said, the Prince of this world.

When the final seal is opened, then the BOOK is opened, to reveal 7 angels with 7 trumpets. What does this mean? NO ANGEL can sound before ALL seals are opened. Any disagreement to this axiom will be a disagreement in error.

Perhaps the feast of trumpets IS or WILL BE prophetic.

Timtofly said:

No army meets God on the throne in seal 6, because no one even knows the day and hour it will happen. This is not the battle of Armageddon!!!

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What is the probability of finding the same five characters in a verse of the Bible?
It only occurs in the two verses found below, which proves they are about the same event.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


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sovereigngrace said:

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.
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I wonder how many comings YOU think their will be? I think the bible is clear that there will be only TWO MORE comings.

First, there is no coming at the 7th trumpet. What WILL happen will be a property CLOSING in the court room of heaven, where the kingdoms of the world are legally TAKEN from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. At that time, Jesus can BEGIN to reign as GOD over all the kingdoms of the world. (He has been reigning over the church since He ascended.)

The idea of "an END" here is just another MYTH. In fact, it will be the MIDPOINT of the 70th week of Daniel. This is proven by the words of Jesus: He told those in judea to flee when they see the abomination, and we see their fleeing just AFTER the 7th trumpet has sounded. The sounding of the 7th trumpet will mark the time of the abomination in heaven. It will also be Michael's que to go to war with Satan and cast Him down. Since at the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease expired - the ONLY legal thing Satan had as the god of this world - now Michael can cast him down and remove his wings, so to speak: he will be confined to earth.

Three things scriptural happen at the 7th trumpet and you missed every one!

“chronos ouketi estai” Sorry, but other Greek texts, including the Byzantine Majority text, has it as "oti cronoV ouketi estai" No longer any DELAY in time. It makes good sense: now that Jesus is reigning over the kingdoms of the world, He can REIGN. He can delegate 42 months to the Beast, Satan and the FP. He can send the angels with the vials.

Sorry, but your "cycle" theory is so far off from the way I read Revelation, I may not answer any more. You did go to a lot of work, if it was not copy and paste, and I thank you for that.

BABerean2 said:

John saw the "souls" of the dead in heaven in the verse below. Many of our dead Brothers, and Sisters are there now. They did not get there through the Pretrib rapture.

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


John also sees them in chapter 7. They are still in heaven below.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

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None of the dead in Christ get there in the rapture. The rapture is not for the dead. If they are there, then all of the church is there, minus those in physical sinful bodies. You keep splitting the church up in who gets to heaven, when. All the dead in Christ are in heaven as one. Why would some be dead in the ground and some alive in heaven? That is splitting the church up into dispensational groups. Are you a dispensationalist?

BABerean2 said:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.


The Capitol "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.
Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

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Historically yes. Revelation 12 is the only history chapter. They overcame Satan and death. All those in Christ do. Not in their own power, but the power of the Holy Spirit.

Timtofly said:

None of the dead in Christ get there in the rapture. The rapture is not for the dead. If they are there, then all of the church is there, minus those in physical sinful bodies. You keep splitting the church up in who gets to heaven, when. All the dead in Christ are in heaven as one. Why would some be dead in the ground and some alive in heaven? That is splitting the church up into dispensational groups. Are you a dispensationalist?

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Where is the soul of the Apostle Paul located at the present time?

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DavidPT said:

So, in your opinion, angels are instructing Christ what to do when and where, rather than the other way around? That seems to put angels in a higher position than Christ since your interpretation here has angels instructing Christ what to do and when. But if we were to compare with something such as the following instead, it appears to contradict your interpretation here.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

According to this passage, and the fact Jesus being the speaker here, Jesus tells us that He is not a reaper in the end of the age, the angels are. Jesus tells us that angels aren't sending Jesus forth to do anything involving reaping, Jesus is telling us here that He is sending forth his angels to do these things involving reaping.


And the strange thing about it, in 2 Peter 3:8, for example, you argue a simile is meant. So why aren't you arguing a simile is meant here as well---and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man?


Why am I even bothering bringing this up? Mainly because, in my mind, if someone is wrong about something they submitted, and can be shown to be wrong, such I showed above, one then has to wonder what all else are they might be wrong about?

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The BIG difference is: Amils take the literal passages literal and the figurative passages figurative. Premils take the literal passages figurative and the figurative passages literal.

iamlamad said:

I wonder how many comings YOU think their will be? I think the bible is clear that there will be only TWO MORE comings.

First, there is no coming at the 7th trumpet. What WILL happen will be a property CLOSING in the court room of heaven, where the kingdoms of the world are legally TAKEN from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. At that time, Jesus can BEGIN to reign as GOD over all the kingdoms of the world. (He has been reigning over the church since He ascended.)

The idea of "an END" here is just another MYTH. In fact, it will be the MIDPOINT of the 70th week of Daniel. This is proven by the words of Jesus: He told those in judea to flee when they see the abomination, and we see their fleeing just AFTER the 7th trumpet has sounded. The sounding of the 7th trumpet will mark the time of the abomination in heaven. It will also be Michael's que to go to war with Satan and cast Him down. Since at the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease expired - the ONLY legal thing Satan had as the god of this world - now Michael can cast him down and remove his wings, so to speak: he will be confined to earth.

Three things scriptural happen at the 7th trumpet and you missed every one!

“chronos ouketi estai” Sorry, but other Greek texts, including the Byzantine Majority text, has it as "oti cronoV ouketi estai" No longer any DELAY in time. It makes good sense: now that Jesus is reigning over the kingdoms of the world, He can REIGN. He can delegate 42 months to the Beast, Satan and the FP. He can send the angels with the vials.

Sorry, but your "cycle" theory is so far off from the way I read Revelation, I may not answer any more. You did go to a lot of work, if it was not copy and paste, and I thank you for that.

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You insert a coming where it doesn't exist and deny where it is explicit. You are fighting the Word of God. Pretrib is a man-made invention, as your posts prove.

Last trumpet

The 7 trumpets say what the rest of Scripture says that the coming of Christ is the end. You have no answer to that. It totally forbids Pretrib.

The sound of the trumpet ushers in the one final future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Repeated Scripture shows it to be "the end"! It is a time when God raises all the righteous and the wicked. It is a time when He judges mankind. Whilst Matthew 24, Mark 13:24-27, 31-32, 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15 and the book of Revelation clearly and expressly refer to the coming of Christ, there is no seven-year tribulation or third coming of Christ mentioned or intimated anywhere in these passages, or elsewhere in Scripture. Rather, Scripture shows us that Christ comes “with” and “for” His elect (the redeemed of God) at His one final Coming.

Let us look at the evidence!

Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. Jesus says of His Coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.

Mark 13:24-27, 31-32

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming (erchomai) in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall ‘gather together’ [or episunago] his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ... Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53

What is more, not only does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-30 correlate, but we get further detail in 1 Corinthians 15: 22-24, 51-53. There Paul says of this final Coming, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming (parousia). Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down (katargeésee or abolished) all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

This text shows us the catching away of the saints at the second coming. It also shows us that this is indeed the end.

Scripture complementing Scripture is one of the great proofs of truth and means of enlightenment. That is what we are looking at when it comes to the trumpet sound that accompanies the Coming of Christ.

Here again we see the two distinct groups of redeemed mentioned who will be finally unified at Christ’s one final Coming. When Paul says “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” he is saying that the dead in Christ will be resurrected with new bodies but the live in Christ will be instantly “changed.” Those that are alive do not need resurrected as they don’t die. They just need transformed from mortality to immortality. Paul explains it as: “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” The “dead in Christ” are gathered from “one end of heaven to the other” and come with Christ to be united with their new spiritual bodies. The ‘live in Christ’ on the other hand are gathered together from “the four winds” of earth and are caught up together with them after instantly receiving their new bodies. Collectively the redeemed are made one in the act of glorification. This ushers in the end.

The word rendered "last" in “last trump" is the Greek word eschatos meaning end, last, farthest or final. This negates the Pretrib idea of a further trumpet seven yrs later. We are therefore looking at the final trumpet sound at the one final Coming of Christ. What is more, by clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.1 Corinthians 15:22-24 tells us that “all rule and all authority and power” are finally “put down” or katargeésee or abolished at the “Coming” or parousia of the Lord, which is, as we have established, confirmed in the next sentence as “the end.” The kingdom of God is finally and eternally presented “up,” whereas the kingdom of darkness is finally and eternally “put down.” This all-consummating last day that ushers in the end (or completion) of all things.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

This is a record of Christ’s one and only future Coming. This reading describes how Christ comes “with” and “for” His saints the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living believers will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the final uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s Coming) is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This Coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Pretribbers have to divorce 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 from other similar passages that refer to the coming of Christ with the trumpet of God. For them to do otherwise would totally demolish their doctrine.

This is clear corroboration, something that Pretrib and Premil know nothing about.