Non-denominational or anti-denominational

Amittai · Sep 21, 2020

Now that we've got denominations it's vital to not dissemble so that we can model true pluralism which some parts of the world were benefitting from and which is now so at risk. Also Jesus' and the Apostles' principles surely support underlying harmony in relative distinctiveness and not treading on each others' toes. (Isn't Holy Spirit supposed to give us glowing confidence?)

Just because the First Church Of God of Presupposition is proving so convincingly how filthy the Seven Millionth Church Of Christ Supralapsarian is, doesn't mean we have to buy into their fallacies. I mostly over the years have two- and three-timed because I enjoy the overlap so much, and because it helps me keep authorities out of my hair. (Ever the original thinker!)

Albion · Sep 21, 2020

Amittai said:
I'm surprised you've never come across it.

I asked if they had done it in your case.

bèlla · Sep 21, 2020

Tony,

A more accurate description for my philosophy is spiritual. I don't have a deep affinity for religion or need for belonging in the guise put forth in churches. I don't like faux intimacy nor do I believe shared ideals eradicate the necessity of authentic bonding and vetting someone's character. You'll never get close to me because you're Christian. Who you are as person in relation to your beliefs and maturity is my starting point.

There are practices that resonate and represent teachings and behaviors the Lord impressed throughout my walk. Each highlights a touchstone of time and experiences that impacted my growth and deepened my commitment to Him. Relationship is the central theme in my understanding of God and our connection. It's both foundational and foremost. Our communion is the sweetest thing I've known.

I don't want spiritual micromanagement or excessive busyness in the name of faith. My activities are purposeful and purpose driven. They relate to a specific end and the mission He bestowed. The principles I learned in Judaism provided grounding and certainty. I don't have a questioning spirit and I'm perfectly at home with not knowing or understanding. The Lord fills in the gaps in His timing and I've lived that repeatedly.

Although I lack the same needs as others, I give from the overflow through support, prayer and encouragement. He's blessed me immensely and I spread seeds of hope whenever I can. I've never pondered this question but belonging remained in my thoughts since I the synagogue. Finding home has been a many layered journey. But I have the answer now.

"Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.” —Kahlil Gibran

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Amittai · Sep 21, 2020

Albion said:
I asked if they had done it in your case.

Sorry - yes - it's mostly the obviously implied subtext (barely disguised) or often stated outright. I don't agree, so I stay or go away as I please. If I stay some of them forget until it next occurs to them to pull this on me again. I'm selective about what parts of my life (that they don't see) I tell them about. Just like the agnostics / atheists I mix with. I don't wave red flags, I don't shrink. I assert myself but I don't interfere unless they interfere with my pluralism, or else I drop out. I look for overlaps in faith, and I don't package deal. That's just me! I try to quietly convey that they will benefit from people with a similar approach around. It's an attitude of heart. They can still throw themselves in fully at the practical level if they find it suits.

Tony B · Sep 22, 2020

LaBèlla said:
Tony,

A more accurate description for my philosophy is spiritual. I don't have a deep affinity for religion or need for belonging in the guise put forth in churches. I don't like faux intimacy nor do I believe shared ideals eradicate the necessity of authentic bonding and vetting someone's character. You'll never get close to me because you're Christian. Who you are as person in relation to your beliefs and maturity is my starting point.

I agree with that... I always look to see if one walks the talk, but understanding that we all falter on that walk at times.

LaBèlla said:
There are practices that resonate and represent teachings and behaviors the Lord impressed throughout my walk. Each highlights a touchstone of time and experiences that impacted my growth and deepened my commitment to Him. Relationship is the central theme in my understanding of God and our connection. It's both foundational and foremost. Our communion is the sweetest thing I've known.

Thank you for sharing this intimate thought. I share in the opinion that our personal relationship with our Creator is more important to us than anything else in our life.

LaBèlla said:
I don't want spiritual micromanagement or excessive busyness in the name of faith. My activities are purposeful and purpose driven. They relate to a specific end and the mission He bestowed. The principles I learned in Judaism provided grounding and certainty. I don't have a questioning spirit and I'm perfectly at home with not knowing or understanding. The Lord fills in the gaps in His timing and I've lived that repeatedly.

I agree that we must be true to ourselves, to who are, ie our particular bent and how that is equipped, and how it serves. I'm a prophetic insight type...knowing all the ways of my Father are a priority to us. Because the want of prophetic insights is to declare the will and way of God in everything, they strive for knowledge of His ways. They don't care much for their own opinion or anyone else's, they are totally focussed on finding out God's opinions, preferring to only declare those.

LaBèlla said:
Although I lack the same needs as others, I give from the overflow through support, prayer and encouragement. He's blessed me immensely and I spread seeds of hope whenever I can. I've never pondered this question but belonging remained in my thoughts since I the synagogue. Finding home has been a many layered journey. But I have the answer now.

That's fantastic Bella, we all are pleased to learn that.

LaBèlla said:
"Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking.” —Kahlil Gibran

Can't agree with what Gibran is implying here. I became a Christian because I doubted the veracity of my religious upbringing, and went searching. God used my society-distrusting and inquiring mind to draw me to Jesus. The appostle also encouraged that we allow our character to be transformed through the renewing of our minds....so according to him our thinking processes are important to being transformed into Christ likeness.

Thanks for sharing your insights and personal experiences Bella.

bèlla · Sep 22, 2020

Tony B said:
Can't agree with what Gibran is implying here. I became a Christian because I doubted the veracity of my religious upbringing, and went searching. God used my society-distrusting and inquiring mind to draw me to Jesus. The appostle also encouraged that we allow our character to be transformed through the renewing of our minds....so according to him our thinking processes are important to being transformed into Christ likeness.

Tony,

Paul was addressing Gentiles who lacked the knowledge and cultural experiences that would demonstrate the same through their behavior.

David said, “Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous rules.” Psalm 119 is a treatise to renewing the mind as are many others. If you emulated his behavior or prayed the book in the 7 or 30 day rotations as its presently done. You’d reach the same conclusion and experience its effect.

That text was the guideline utilized for the liturgy of hours. It was paired with time associations in the bible.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Tony B · Sep 22, 2020

LaBèlla said:
Tony,

Paul was addressing Gentiles who lacked the knowledge and cultural experiences that would demonstrate the same through their behavior.

David said, “Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous rules.” Psalm 119 is a treatise to renewing the mind as are many others. If you emulated his behavior or prayed the book in the 7 or 30 day rotations as its presently done. You’d reach the same conclusion and experience its effect.

That text was the guideline utilized for the liturgy of hours. It was paired with time associations in the bible.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Yes Bella, Psalms are good for us, providing we take the time to think about the context in which they were written, and ponder the wording. (Selah)

I usually read a Psalm in the evening, and a passage of New Testament scripture in the morning. I find what I read edifying.

I'm careful that I don't fall back into the method I practiced in my RC upbringing though, where I falsely relied on repeating the same prayer or part of our religious booklet, over and over again. That did nothing for me, except retard my spiritual growth. But in truth, my spirit was dead to God then anyway.

If anyone wants to contemplate what it is to live like a Christian, whether they are from a Jew or a Gentile background, I recommend they read Paul's letter to the church in Colossae, particularly Chapter 3.

Thank you for your response.

Shalom, Tony

Monksailor · Oct 4, 2020

Tony B said:
I used to regard myself as non-denominational, but then I found that some religious institutions are regarding themselves as non-denominational, which to me seems contradictory.

So, I’ve decided that I must be anti-denominational, because I’m anti religious institutions. In my opinion Jesus was/is that way too.

Anyone else here share the same opinion?

I hear you, Tony, about why you chose to be Non-Denominational. One of my few pet peeves is Denominational-ism. I believe that it is against everything which Jesus prayed for the church in his prayer to the Father as He prepared for the cross and His physical departure in John 17. Romans 14 is also a treatise, I believe, against Denominational-ism. And then we have the Apostle Paul who repudiated any kind of a breaking off from Christ's church and trying to form separate and unique sub-followings or sects such as in 1 Cor 1: 11-13 and 1 Cor 3: 3-4, 21-22 as follows: "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? " and "...for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Are you not walking in the way of man? For when one of you says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?" and "Therefore, stop boasting in men. All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you, and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God."

Yes, Paul, in the Spirit of Christ, confronted any such breaking down/division of Christ's church. Paul was the great ambassador of Christ to the world, so to speak. He went on at least 3 missionary journeys preaching the Gospel and establishing and maintaining Christ's church, especially to Gentiles. He was probably the first to really see how the division of the church was hurting Christ and the first to try to quench it. Gentile converts struggled with bringing attributes of their past Non-Jewish national or cultural faiths, esp pantheism into their Christian style of worship.

The most effective way to defeat an enemy is to divide and conquer whether by military force or more subtly, from within by causing philosophical, theological, cultural, and such divisions. Satan is our enemy and he knows and uses that strategy very effectively. One very powerful means of this has been to divide Christ's church into sub-groups which have become disconnected and sadly exclusively loyal only to ones of their specific title or name and have forgotten or ignored Jesus' repetitive plea for UNITY in His church as He looked forward in history (Omnipresence) at the division of His church in John 17.

I would think that changing your position label to "Anti-Denomination" is not necessary, Tony. Just because someone wrongly describes themselves as Non-Denominational doesn't that you have to let them boot you out. That is their problem.

One Non-Denominational church which we attended for about 8 yrs identified itself as "Independent Non-Denominational Bible." The "Bible" part referring to the fact that no institution or denomination dictated its doctrine and practices and procedures but rather the Bible, exclusively, and the "Independent" referring to the fact that it was autonomous from any earthly dictated doctrine, practices, procedures, and such..

garee · Oct 8, 2020

Tony B said:
I used to regard myself as non-denominational, but then I found that some religious institutions are regarding themselves as non-denominational, which to me seems contradictory.

So, I’ve decided that I must be anti-denominational, because I’m anti religious institutions. In my opinion Jesus was/is that way too.

Anyone else here share the same opinion?

I had a similar experience being in what is called non denominational setting (a good hope ). A hope we are following the lead of the Spirit of Christ the teacher.

But the bible informs us there must be heresies as sect among us seeing the kingdom of God does not come by observing the temporal things seen. They must be mixed with faith the unseen eternal.

2 Corinthians 4:18 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The first mention in the new testament of a sect (heresy) is called the Way or Nazarene sect is shown in Acts 24. The seven churches in Revelation that represent all make up 7 different approaches of getting under the authority of the word of God. They all end with the same loving commandment .. . .hear what the Spirit who works within each and every believer says to the sects. (churches)

Many have good formats for preaching the gospel . Not all heresies as personal opinions deny the grace of God by which we were bought .

They would be judgeable as falling short of the gospel. Like the Pharisees with Sadaucesss to denomination/sects that set aside their differences to come against the manner of spirit of the Nazarene sect .

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon "themselves"swift destruction

SaintCody777 · Oct 8, 2020

Albion said:
I'm getting the idea from the responses here that most people who identify themselves as "non-denominational" are not members of any congregation...

as opposed to the other possible meaning which is holding membership in an independent congregation that doesn't belong to any denomination and probably has a fairly uncomplicated statement of beliefs.

Do you or Tony (or anyone else) agree?

The point of a non denominational church is to simply follow the Bible without being chained to specific creeds or denominational doctrines. However what makes this simplicity somtimes more complicated is that there are entire sects that are not only supposedly non-denominational, but also anti denominational.
A great example are the Churches of Christ. The name and structure looks simple, but at the end of the day, they turn out to be another sect with its own unique doctrines that just about all Churches of Christ have in common: salvation is a 5-6, something like that step process, and basically if anything is not mentioned in Scripture, then the church is forbidden from doing that specific activity (such as Sunday School). Does that NOT make it a denomination in and of itself? Not to mention that the Churches of Christ's buildings look identical to a Baptist, low church Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc, inside and out.
As someone attending a non-denominational, Charismatic church, I prefer to be called just Christian and want to simply follow the Bible. However, I will always always, knowingly or not, adopt a doctrine discovered and formulated by men. For example, since I believe that you are justified by faith in Christ alone and that can loose your salvation only once, I'm a Reformed Arminian by default. You cannot fully run away from all doctrinal titles that are oftentimes named after man, eg Pelagianism, Trinitarian, Dispensationalism, Campbellite, etc.

Albion · Oct 9, 2020

SaintCody777 said:
However what makes this simplicity sometimes more complicated is that there are entire sects that are not only supposedly non-denominational, but also anti denominational.
A great example are the Churches of Christ.

Good point! You are right to add it. So that makes three very common uses of the same term, "non-denominational," none of which is anything like either of the other two.

Sketcher · Oct 10, 2020

SaintCody777 said:
A great example are the Churches of Christ. The name and structure looks simple, but at the end of the day, they turn out to be another sect with its own unique doctrines that just about all Churches of Christ have in common: salvation is a 5-6, something like that step process, and basically if anything is not mentioned in Scripture, then the church is forbidden from doing that specific activity (such as Sunday School). Does that NOT make it a denomination in and of itself? Not to mention that the Churches of Christ's buildings look identical to a Baptist, low church Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc, inside and out.

Yeah, I consider them a denomination.

garee · Oct 22, 2020

Tony B said:
I used to regard myself as non-denominational, but then I found that some religious institutions are regarding themselves as non-denominational, which to me seems contradictory.

So, I’ve decided that I must be anti-denominational, because I’m anti religious institutions. In my opinion Jesus was/is that way too.

Anyone else here share the same opinion?

Yes, in that way no such thing as non-denominational . The bible informs us there must be heresies (another word for sects or denominations) amongst us. For we understand God by the things not seen called faith. The kingdom does not come by observation of the temporal things seen. He also informs us the differences are not damnable unless they deny the lord's grace by which he has bought us. In that way some oral traditions make the word of His faith that works in the believers desolate.

1watchman · Oct 25, 2020

Wow! We cannot agree about 'denoms' and 'non-denoms', and even non-sectarian, but that has been true for a long time in christendom. I do not see myself as with a denomination, since that means NAMED, and such ones DO name self. For discussion, I speak of my fellowship as with a non-sectarian fellowship, which sounds more true to the Bible intent, but that too becomes a debate by some souls. I think I will just leave this subject as is. Keep looking up, dear saints!

Tony B · Oct 26, 2020

Stone-n-Steel said:
Arn't denominations a creation of man?

I personally believe so. I can't see how Jesus would be supportive of the church breaking up into different groups, except for moral reasons. Paul and the other apostles followed in the same manner. I ask people to think about how much more of a force for moral improvements in the world, we would be if we had a unified front, and depth. Surely that would honour Jesus far more than the dysfunctional and limp nation, overruled by the world, we have turned into.

Tony B · Oct 26, 2020

Amittai said:
Now that we've got denominations it's vital to not dissemble so that we can model true pluralism which some parts of the world were benefitting from and which is now so at risk. Also Jesus' and the Apostles' principles surely support underlying harmony in relative distinctiveness and not treading on each others' toes. (Isn't Holy Spirit supposed to give us glowing confidence?)

Just because the First Church Of God of Presupposition is proving so convincingly how filthy the Seven Millionth Church Of Christ Supralapsarian is, doesn't mean we have to buy into their fallacies. I mostly over the years have two- and three-timed because I enjoy the overlap so much, and because it helps me keep authorities out of my hair. (Ever the original thinker!)

That's one way of doing it, but it means we have to learn to live with isolation to a degree. This is not what was supposed to happen of course.

The church was supposed to be a safe haven for Christians to intermingle in without fear of threat to basic faith or peace. Can't remember ever encountering a fellowship in my neck of the woods that has provided that environment.

Tony B · Oct 26, 2020

Monksailor said:
I hear you, Tony, about why you chose to be Non-Denominational. One of my few pet peeves is Denominational-ism. I believe that it is against everything which Jesus prayed for the church in his prayer to the Father as He prepared for the cross and His physical departure in John 17. Romans 14 is also a treatise, I believe, against Denominational-ism. And then we have the Apostle Paul who repudiated any kind of a breaking off from Christ's church and trying to form separate and unique sub-followings or sects such as in 1 Cor 1: 11-13 and 1 Cor 3: 3-4, 21-22 as follows: "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? " and "...for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Are you not walking in the way of man? For when one of you says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?" and "Therefore, stop boasting in men. All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future. All of them belong to you, and you belong to Christ, and Christ belongs to God."

Yes, Paul, in the Spirit of Christ, confronted any such breaking down/division of Christ's church. Paul was the great ambassador of Christ to the world, so to speak. He went on at least 3 missionary journeys preaching the Gospel and establishing and maintaining Christ's church, especially to Gentiles. He was probably the first to really see how the division of the church was hurting Christ and the first to try to quench it. Gentile converts struggled with bringing attributes of their past Non-Jewish national or cultural faiths, esp pantheism into their Christian style of worship.

The most effective way to defeat an enemy is to divide and conquer whether by military force or more subtly, from within by causing philosophical, theological, cultural, and such divisions. Satan is our enemy and he knows and uses that strategy very effectively. One very powerful means of this has been to divide Christ's church into sub-groups which have become disconnected and sadly exclusively loyal only to ones of their specific title or name and have forgotten or ignored Jesus' repetitive plea for UNITY in His church as He looked forward in history (Omnipresence) at the division of His church in John 17.

I would think that changing your position label to "Anti-Denomination" is not necessary, Tony. Just because someone wrongly describes themselves as Non-Denominational doesn't that you have to let them boot you out. That is their problem.

One Non-Denominational church which we attended for about 8 yrs identified itself as "Independent Non-Denominational Bible." The "Bible" part referring to the fact that no institution or denomination dictated its doctrine and practices and procedures but rather the Bible, exclusively, and the "Independent" referring to the fact that it was autonomous from any earthly dictated doctrine, practices, procedures, and such..

Agree with what you said MonkS. I try not to ridicule anyone else's belief, but there seems to be so much clutter in the church from man-made rules and traditions, and the variations of these that are found between denominational and institutionalised groups. How can anyone be sure of what is right. How a new Christian, born again independently of any group, can find the right group to fellowship with that has a way which is based solely on God's truth, with no man-made rules and traditions added, is beyond me. You may have stumbled on one it seems, so that is a great blessing for you, and it is a joy to hear.

Tony B · Oct 26, 2020

garee said:
In that way some oral traditions make the word of His faith that works in the believers desolate.

Yes, I agree with that. They have also caused schisms in the church...how very sad and grieving is that too!

Tony B · Oct 26, 2020

1watchman said:
Wow! We cannot agree about 'denoms' and 'non-denoms', and even non-sectarian, but that has been true for a long time in christendom. I do not see myself as with a denomination, since that means NAMED, and such ones DO name self. For discussion, I speak of my fellowship as with a non-sectarian fellowship, which sounds more true to the Bible intent, but that too becomes a debate by some souls. I think I will just leave this subject as is. Keep looking up, dear saints!

Wouldn't it be great if the OP was never a thought to be questioned, or indeed raised...and that we were truly one, as Jesus hoped. I personally prefer to please Him, rather than defer to man's wants.

TheGoodLight · Nov 27, 2020

I accept that there are plenty of good churches in a diversity of denominations, but having my arm twisted to embrace theological points that do not sit right with me is something that I do not miss.

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