Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

sovereigngrace said:

You keep moving the goalposts when you cannot prove what you are saying. I said Pretrib, but you changed your defense to Premil. I agree Premil has a proof-text in Revelation 20. They have an argument, if you take a hyper-literalist approach to a highly-figurative passage, and also exclude multiple climactic Scripture from the argument. What is more, they totally lack any corroboration for their opinion of that same highly-symbolic passage. Prettrib on the other-hand has not one single proof text to support their theory, and you know it, because you have nothing to bring to the table that teaches what you have been taught.

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The Second Coming is after 1990 years of tribulation. If we are living in your alleged 1000 years reign, that is pre-trib and pre-mill. Jesus already came back the Second time to begin this alleged time. The Millennium of Revelation 20 has not happened yet. You conflate your own interpretation with Satan being destroyed with fire as a Second Coming. Tell me one word in Revelation 20 that is a Second Coming word or hint.

sovereigngrace said:

Pretribbers cherry pick what suits them. There is more than an earthquake.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-37, “Heaven (ouranos) and earth (gē) shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

The phrases rendered “pass away” in the Greek is parerchomai which basically means “perish.” It identifies the passing of this current earth at “the coming of the Son of man.”

2 Peter 3:10-13: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

We see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The word en is used 2,831 times in Scripture and is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” or “within” throughout. Significantly, it is not translated as ‘near,’ ‘close to’ or ‘close by’ in any of these references. Support for the complete demolition attending the actual appearance of Christ in all His glory is also found in the same chapter in 2 Peter 3:12, which explains, “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.”

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

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Pretribbers cherry pick what suits them.
Posttribbers cherry pick what suits them. And ignore the rest.

It identifies the passing of this current earth at “the coming of the Son of man.” There you go, adding to scripture to make if fit your theory! Jesus did not set any time to that phrase, "heaven and earth shall pass away." In fact, John DID tell us timing: it will be just before the great, white throne judgment, NOT at His coming. This takes me back to a former statement: we don't form theory from ONE VERSE. (Well, it seems some do.)

the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat Let's rewrite this for clarity

DLNT
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief— during which the heavens will pass-away with-a-roar, and the elements will be destroyed while burning, and the earth and the works in it will be found.

Yes, we all know that sometime during the Day of the Lord all this will happen. Peter is not saying it will happen at the START of the Day. Why don't we use other scriptures that might be clearer? John STARTS the day of the Lord at the 6th seal, then shows us the entire 70th week AFTER THAT. It is good to paste in scriptures, but it is better to understand them in light of all the end times scriptures. Again, it is wise to form doctrine from the most complete treatise of the end times - Revelation. For those that understand Revelation, other other scriptures all come in line. But Revelation is the most complete. Your first argument fails completely.

1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise.
2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’,
3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.
4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

Yes, all will happen INSIDE the Day of the Lord. I won't disagree. Thanks! I have wondered where the Day of the Lord ends in Revelation - or IF it ends. Now I know it goes at least to the great, white throne judgment. If someone is open, they can always learn something. Note, all these things DON'T happen when the DAY starts. Many things (trumpets, vials) happen before Jesus comes.

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. This is not really true: for example, the FIRST THING that happens when He comes as shown in Rev. 19 is ARMAGEDDON. So you are mistaken again. And according to Matthew, after that, the sheep and goat judgment.

If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens.
Again, no argument; only that it will happen after the 1000 years and just before the white throne judgment. We should clear something up: the earth will be PURGED by fire before the 1000 year reign. Then destroyed after. Paul said our works would be tried by fire. John saw the saints judging - seated on thrones. You MUST allow time for that - John gives us 1000 years of this judging.

This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Of course it does - but you miss it: preconceived glasses. All those John saw seated on thrones judging: that is NOT on the new heaven and earth. Just like prewrathers, you have to do massive rearranging of Revelation to make your theory fit. And that is a guarantee of a flaky theory.

sovereigngrace said:

I have showed you the rescue of all the elect when Jesus comes.
I have showed you the destruction of all the wicked when Jesus comes.
I have showed you the destruction of earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes.

There are no survivors.

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Well, you have shown us what you IMAGINE will happen. I will give you that much. One thing is certain: you and I can read the same scripture and come up with a different understanding: case in point: "no one shall escape..." and imagining that this kills everything, and when we place this in Revelation where it fits - just before wrath - in the very next chapter people are very much alive. So far, you have shown nothing but imagination about these things - not reality.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but Jesus never articulated such a belief. in fact, He spoke very little of the Gentile church of today. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. God waited a sufficient time for Israel as a nation to accept Him as their Messiah. When they refused, He sent out Paul to call the Gentiles in.

Perhaps we should define "church." Did you mean the church of today - the body of Christ on earth? It was certainly the words of Jesus that Luke wrote, showing His escape plan. (Luke 21:36)

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I believe the church/body of Christ is both Jew and Gentile. The tree consisting of both natural and grafted branches. Gentiles nations adopted in at the Isaac generation.

I`ll post a link to an article written by Ron Wallace on prewrath. It will take you there on his web site. His view and mine are pretty close. I like his articles and he allows his work to be freely copied and used if you find something you like.

Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology

It`s been a long time since I engaged in discussion of this topic so it`s possible I might deviate a bit from this. Not sure at this moment.

The chart below is from the Ron Wallace article. It looks pretty good to me.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but Jesus never articulated such a belief. in fact, He spoke very little of the Gentile church of today. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. God waited a sufficient time for Israel as a nation to accept Him as their Messiah. When they refused, He sent out Paul to call the Gentiles in.

Perhaps we should define "church." Did you mean the church of today - the body of Christ on earth? It was certainly the words of Jesus that Luke wrote, showing His escape plan. (Luke 21:36)

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What do you think Luke 21 does for you? It takes us to the time of the 6th seal but not the 7th. 7th seal is the wrath of God.

sovereigngrace said:

But they can be figurative terms describing actual realities.

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Everyone - listen to this!
Metaphor can contain truth - and Jesus himself spoke in more parables than anyone else in Scripture. But Revelation is the most metaphorical book in the bible - a sermon to John's generation (see Chapter 1) written in biblical symbolism describing the hope they had back then in Jesus even as Rome was about to start persecuting their generation. Reading it as a future timetable of the last generation is just weird - it rips Revelation out of the context where John was writing to his generation, he said he wanted them to 'keep' his word (hear and obey it), and if it was about how they were to suffer under Rome - it then also applies to all Christians in persecution situations for all time after.

If it applies to some generation at the end of history then it's irrelevant to all generations before.

sovereigngrace said:

The BIG difference is: Amils take the literal passages literal and the figurative passages figurative. Premils take the literal passages figurative and the figurative passages literal.

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Malachi 4:1 says, “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day whichis coming shall burn them up.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

For example, I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

2 Peter 3:10-13 supports this, saying, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

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I'm an Amil - but as one Amil to another - that's way too much red for my poor eyes to read! ;-) Also, try the NIV - it's just more readable as well.

sovereigngrace said:

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

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This happens before Satan and the FP and AC. This happens at the 5th and 6th Seal. Read Revelation 6 and point out Satan, the FP, and the AC.

eclipsenow said:

Everyone - listen to this!
Metaphor can contain truth - and Jesus himself spoke in more parables than anyone else in Scripture. But Revelation is the most metaphorical book in the bible - a sermon to John's generation (see Chapter 1) written in biblical symbolism describing the hope they had back then in Jesus even as Rome was about to start persecuting their generation. Reading it as a future timetable of the last generation is just weird - it rips Revelation out of the context where John was writing to his generation, he said he wanted them to 'keep' his word (hear and obey it), and if it was about how they were to suffer under Rome - it then also applies to all Christians in persecution situations for all time after.

If it applies to some generation at the end of history then it's irrelevant to all generations before.

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Revelation wasn`t a sermon, it was a document and a series of letters. History teaches that John was exiled to the island of Patmos at the time of his vision & that he was an old man at this time.

The seven letters have much to say/teach to believers in every period of time. If you want to know what Jesus has to say to a Gentile this is the place to look.

The prophecies are a continuation of the prophecies of the Old Testament. Lot`s of tie in/related prophecy in the OT. Nothing weird about futuristic prophecy, the OT and prophecy being futuristic is the point in the first place.

Isaiah 46
"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"

sovereigngrace said:

Hello! There are saints in heaven with Christ now and there are saints on earth now. So, He must come "with" and "for" in order to unite us in the air. This is not hard to grasp to the objective, honest and open Bible student.

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This does not prove post trib. This proves the resurrection of the OT at the Cross.

RickReads said:

I believe the church/body of Christ is both Jew and Gentile. The tree consisting of both natural and grafted branches. Gentiles nations adopted in at the Isaac generation.

I`ll post a link to an article written by Ron Wallace on prewrath. It will take you there on his web site. His view and mine are pretty close. I like his articles and he allows his work to be freely copied and used if you find something you like.

Foundations: Studies in Bible Theology

It`s been a long time since I engaged in discussion of this topic so it`s possible I might deviate a bit from this. Not sure at this moment.

The chart below is from the Ron Wallace article. It looks pretty good to me.

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Any chart which is based on a future 70th week of Daniel is wrong, based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

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BABerean2 said:

Any chart which is based on a future 70th week of Daniel is wrong, based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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The covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

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The covenant with many is the treaty of the anti-christ. Has nothing to do with Matthew 26:28.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

sovereigngrace said:

Where does it state there is sin on the NHNE?

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None of the Old Testament prophets or New Testament writers mention a literal 1,000 yrs in which Satan is bound and where the glorified saints inherit a new earth along with billions of mortal sinners. None mention a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future earthly millennial kingdom.

sovereigngrace said:

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

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How does it get to the Garden of Eden state? This could be the entirety of sin itself. So did this literally happen during the 400 years before Christ?