Hello. I have many questions.

SoManyQuestions! said:

... why did God give humans all these supposedly sinful desires, then institute rules against indulging in them? I think the movie "The Devils Advocate" said it best.

Words from the Devil in the movie: "Let me tell you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He is a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts, he gives man this extraordinary gift, then for I swear, his own amusement! His own private cosmic gag reel! He sets the rules in opposition to one another."

Those are pretty much my thoughts exactly.

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A movie is intense so be wary of what is being done to your brain.

I want to tell you about my take on Scripture (and philosophy) in some other threads. Genez has given an extremely good answer. Words are not meant to be the automatic trigger to your involuntary "response".

You are supposed to be a personality in the round and should be respected more than authority sacred or secular has done and more than commerce has done and perhaps more than you dared respect yourself.

Churches that put us down are devilish, not God.

My take on the entire OT & NT is:

The worship of God is to not stunt the growth of the fellow adopted widows and orphans in Father's firm.

The praise of God is to show we know He is the one to go shopping from without price for the needs of our peers.

Is 55, 58, 61, the talents, a crown, the Feeding of the Thousands, the epistle of James refer.

Our brother ain't heavy because Jesus' burden is light. Our subsequent works can be Holy Spirit fuelled. Most churches - alarmingly - have abolished Holy Spirit belief.

Enlightenment and relationship come first and various problems or foibles will find surprising resolution somewhere down the road in the light of these, if we are seeking God's in a way He sees to be sincere (and not people). God is so serious He doesn't place obstacles others place. We will always have to recognise what obstacles are being placed and not by Him.

Human beings are beings for turning contingency (what we might do) into necessity (fait accompli of what we did do). I hope philosophy threads will help you too. Time is very interesting and it's devastating that sacred and secular authority forbid us to think about it. I love to understand the fabric of the universe.

I hope you'll feel free to mingle with people who can talk you through some things in more detail, I mainly talk about what is immediately after the beginnings.

The main thing is, don't settle for the cut down versions most churches will want to give you. "Love believes all things", therefore insist on being told all things, and not just what one form of churchmanship wants to project as fashionable at the moment. Like it was said this is just hellos so be sure to continue everything in the many other forum sections!

SoManyQuestions! said:

I don't think just believing in Christ makes you Christian. You have to walk the walk and talk the talk. You have to try and be as much like Christ as is humanly possible to be Christian. That is not me. I won't follow someone else's life. I live my own life. Flawed as it is. It is still mine.

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Hello and welcome to C.F.

Just wanted to make a quick comment here about this post.

Firstly, as a Christian your life is still your own... you don't lose yourself and your individuality just because your saved.

Second, I personally follow Jesus out of love for Him and what He did for me.

GOD for me is like a father, it's a matter of wanting to do what is pleasing; getting that praise, that smile if you will, that "well done"...

But, I was lucky in that I had a very close relationship to my own father, and the mindset I grew up with, that mindset of doing what made him happy out of love and devotion just easily carried over into my faith after I was saved because our GOD really is like a good parent to His children - it's why Jesus always referred to him as Father and said we will too.

might be more difficult to relate to if you didn't have a good relationship, but that is the mindset of those who have Christ as their savior, one of just wanting to do what's right, what makes the Father pleased, out of sincere and deep love.

Just believing isn't enough to be saved, even Satan believes in Jesus. You actually need a different kind of belief than mere mental assent to the facts. True belief is soul deep, a heart thing if you will... it's why many people call it "saving faith" instead of belief.

I wish you well in your journey, and pray you find your answers.

kaijo said:

I take it you haven't read the bible from beginning to end.

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You can read it and not understand most of it.... We need good teachers. That should be what we pray for before anything else.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isa 55:8-9




For without understanding, we will end up living by our emotions and hopeful desires that are not His desires. We end up praying to a God that we create in our image without knowing it.

SoManyQuestions! said:

My question is this, why did God give humans all these supposedly sinful desires, then institute rules against indulging in them? I think the movie "The Devils Advocate" said it best.
.

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God instituted rules because He did not give man sinful desires.

When it says...



Why the Devil's seed? Is he a parent of mankind?

Because when man fell? Mankind took on the nature of Satan and his angels. "like father - like son." The earth transformed when Adam fell and began to produce thorns and thistles. For, Satan had won back (temporarily) the rulership of the earth.

Ever walk into someone's room and it smells like that person? Therefore, the fallen earth took on Satan's "body odor."

God then needed to institute rules to direct us away from following wrong impulses, especially for those who would believe in Him. Why? So we can function more like man should have had man had not fallen. Thus, providing rules allowing for happiness if followed. For God created man for happiness.

God created man for happiness!

In spite of the battle we are in God still wants us to learn to be happy in His happinesses. Many happinesses. The original languages of the Bible speaks of happiness in a plurality at times. We do not see that in the translations too often.


grace and peace.....

genez said:

You can read it and not understand most of it.... We need good teachers. That should be what we pray for before anything else.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isa 55:8-9




For without understanding, we will end up living by our emotions and hopeful desires that are not His desires. We end up praying to a God that we create in our image without knowing it.

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Understanding comes 'after' reading it. By observing the world through the 'new lenses' one obtains during/after reading it.

If one has just obtained a degree in mechanics or carpentry theory etc from a university they recently attended, for example, they will never truly be competent until they go out and apply their newly acquired knowledge with hands on experience.

SoManyQuestions! said:

Just wanted to comment on you having a good Dad. That is probably one of the problems I have with finding Christ. My family wasn't quite right. My Mom was very manipulative and Dad was always angry. I remember like a day after Dad died my brother was talking to me and said; "Well Dad is looking... Up at us now." Also when Mom died I remember people coming to the funeral only to make sure she was dead. Someone even sang, thank God the witch is dead, right next to her casket.

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I do think having bad parents can make it difficult, not much of a good association when thinking of parents. I never got along with my mother, not a day in my life that I have memory of, not even when I was small.. for some reason she always seemed to resent my very existence, although I know she wanted me to be a boy, and I was anything but so I'm sure that just compounded it.

My dad however made up for that in amazing ways though which led to my being very close to him as well as fed the relationship.

I think often, you just have to think of what your idea of what a good father is, and how you would be with your own children.

My dad wasn't particularly close to his parents - some kind of family disagreement that was fairly major, and he never saw his parents as being particularly good, although his association with good surrounded money a lot. He didn't get his first pair of shoes until he was 12, and for them he earned his own money... he resented poverty, but not only that in his family life he was a bit lost, too many kids, no real parenting going on.

He decided with us kids, he was going to be the kind of parent he always wanted his own to be, and he was exactly that in every way.

So I guess you have to look at God as being the best Father ever, everything you ever wanted your parents to be and more... and one whose rich to boot.. just not the kind of riches most care about.

kaijo said:

Understanding comes 'after' reading it. By observing the world through the 'new lenses' one obtains during/after reading it.

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For everyone?

Why do you believe that is truth?

You are going to be your own teacher? Is everybody a teacher?

So many Christians are foolish in their understanding because they have never experienced sitting under men who can really teach accurately. Accurate because God chose and assigned them to do so.

I have seen too many clever ones twist.. distort... and confuse the issues, because they assume that are gifted. They are clever and humanly speaking "smart." But their inspiration does not come from God.



But you want everyone to be their own teacher by reading for themselves? Yes.. there are passages we all can understand when we read them. But, too many passages require that we be instructed by those whom God ordains to clarify. We need to prays for good teachers if we have not found ours yet. They exist, but looking around us could cause us to doubt it sad to say.

Then... After being under years of good teaching from qualified teachers, one can venture to do as you claimed. To read it and think.. But only because of all the knowledge you have acquired along the way of bring taught by those qualified to teach.. Then, it is to be for all who can read. Its not the case at all until,then. That's why Jesus warned... "Many will fail...Few will find it."

kaijo said:

If one has just obtained a degree in mechanics or carpentry theory etc from a university they recently attended, for example, they will never truly be competent until they go out and apply their newly acquired knowledge with hands on experience.

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But they have to be trained properly first! Not self trained. Too many things require that we be walking in humility and to submit to another in authority to learn from.

Mechanics all learn from other mechanics. Same with carpenters.... Or, that house may come down in a storm, and that automobile break down many miles away from home.

The Word of God is hidden in understanding unless one follows doing God's will for their life.

genez said:

For everyone?

Why do you believe that is truth?

You are going to be your own teacher? Is everybody a teacher?

Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet.
“Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” Act 8:30-31a​

So many Christians are foolish in their understanding because they have never experienced sitting under men who can really teach accurately. Accurate because God chose and assigned them to do so.

I have seen too many clever ones twist.. distort... and confuse the issues, because they assume that are gifted. They are clever and humanly speaking "smart." But their inspiration does not come from God.

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers,
because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." Jms 3:1 ​

But you want everyone to be their own teacher by reading for themselves? Yes.. there are passages we all can understand when we read them. But, too many passages require that we be instructed by those whom God ordains to clarify.

Then... After being under years of good teaching from qualified teachers, one can venture to do as you claimed. To read it and think.. But only because of all the knowledge you have acquired along the way of bring taught by those qualified to teach.. Then, it is to be for all who can read. Its not the case at all until,then. That's why Jesus warned... "Few find it."

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No one teaches themselves. Learning comes from experience. And it is God who places us in certain situations in hopes that one will be able to identify/comprehend what He is trying to show/teach us, based on what we have read in His book.

kaijo said:

No one teaches themselves. Learning comes from experience. And it is God who places us in certain situations in hopes that one will be able to identify/comprehend what He is trying to show/teach us, based on what we have read in His book.

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I think what we really need to experience? ... (I have a good number of times).... Is having someone teach and analyze the Scriptures with knowledge and wisdom from God.... Leaving you to say? "I never could have known that!"


Its an amazing way to see God working in ones life. Its real. A few good teachers do exist. Found through patience, seeking, enduring, and being led to an open door one did not know was there.

The Word has HIDDEN TREASURES of truth that are only found if you are willing to do God's will for your life. Hidden. You can't see it and find it on your own.




It makes me sad to post that. Because many Christians are too confident in themselves to ever find out how that is true. Try to explain it? And, some become abusive. To their own detriment.

You can win the argument, yet feel like you lost something.

In Christ........

genez said:

The Word has HIDDEN TREASURES of truth that are only found if you are willing to do God's will for your life. Hidden. You can't see it and find it on your own.

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This pretty much sums up what I said in my previous post.

kaijo said:

This pretty much sums up what I said in my previous post.

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There was one thing in that post that bothered me to read..

kaijo said:

No one teaches themselves. Learning comes from experience. And it is God who places us in certain situations in hopes that one will be able to identify/comprehend what He is trying to show/teach us, based on what we have read in His book.

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Its can not always be based upon what we read, when what we read we have yet to understand what its really talking about.

We do presume, but not yet understand. Seen it too many times to let this pass by.

Every denomination and cult began with what seemed right to its leadership. Subjective dogmatism. If they can gather a group of people they will declare themselves to be a success and then shut and lock the doors to their fortress. No room for correction allowed.

Yet the truth? Remains hidden from them. Pertinent truth for their given generation. Truth that would save them, and grant them liberty.

genez said:

It can not always be based upon what we read, when what we read we have yet to understand what its really talking about.

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That's why I previously said understanding comes 'after' reading it.

Reading an instruction manual on how to build a computer from scratch, for example, isn't going to be much use to that person if they have never physically seen/touched/experimented with a resistor or capacitor etc before. It's not until that person is thrown into the back of the 'workshop' to experience how such components work/operate in the real world, that that person will be able to think back on what they read in that instruction book all those years ago and think to themselves something like "Ahh! So THATS what that meant! NOW it makes sense".

Understanding comes 'after' reading it, via experience.

kaijo said:

That's why I previously said understanding comes 'after' reading it.

Reading an instruction manual on how to build a computer from scratch, for example, isn't going to be much use to that person if they have never physically seen/touched/experimented with a resistor or capacitor etc before. It's not until that person is thrown into the back of the 'workshop' to experience how such components work/operate in the real world, that that person will be able to think back on what they read in that instruction book all those years ago and think to themselves something like "Ahh! So THATS what that meant! NOW it makes sense".

Understanding come 'after' reading it, via experience.

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OK... here is something to read from the manual.

How is experience going to prove its meaning if you can not know what it is saying in the first place?

Not true? Tell us what it means, please. (Titus 2:11-12)



grace and peace....

genez said:

OK... here is something to read from the manual.

How is experience going to prove its meaning if you can not know what it is saying in the first place?

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But you DO know what its saying, because you read it. And if you don't yet understand it that's because you have yet to 'experience' a similar situation involving a similar pattern.

genez said:

Not true? Tell us what it means, please. (Titus 2:11-12)

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It
teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live
self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age."
​

grace and peace....

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Are you asking me to interpret this verse?

Welcome to Christian Forums! Enjoy your stay with us!

kaijo said:

But you DO know what its saying, because you read it. And if you don't yet understand it that's because you have yet to 'experience' a similar situation involving a similar pattern.


Are you asking me to interpret this verse?

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Why not? You are the one claiming you can read it for yourself and understand what it is saying by having an experience that involves a passage's content.

Now, don't get me wrong. There are some passages that we can all do that with. But, you were making the claim (it appears) that one only need read the passages and wait for some experience to reveal its meaning through.

I am saying you have yet to learn something you have not yet been shown. I learned it from an excellent teaching by those so qualified. Sad to say.. Many teachers are false today. 2 Timothy 4:3 tells us so..

Yet, we are all in need of someone that God called to show us what we need to know. Need to teach and explain even though we can read a passage translated into our language.

What I was asking? .. "Yes!" Interpret that passage, please!

For how else could you or anyone else apply it to some experience you have, if you do not know what it is saying in the first place?

I am not trying to attack you. I wish to show you something that you have not yet seen. And, need someone to teach before you can.

Here it is again:

grace and peace.......

genez said:

Why not? You are the one claiming you can read it for yourself and understand what it is saying by having an experience that involves a passage's content..

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Srry just got out of the bath.

That's fine, I was just asking as I wasn't sure that's what you wanted. I'd be happy to.

genez said:

I am saying you have yet to learn something you have not yet been shown.

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Ofc. Only a fool would think otherwise.

genez said:

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It

teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live
self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age." Ttus 2:11-12
​

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For the grace (mercy) of God that brings salvation (The Word/Jesus Christ) has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions (just as Jesus showed us by His example/life style/teachings while on the earth), and to live self controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age (by observing Christs example of living/teachings and applying it to our own daily lives).

That is what I get from it in a nutshell anyway.

kaijo said:

Srry just got out of the bath.

That's fine, I was just asking as I wasn't sure that's what you wanted. I'd be happy to.


Ofc. Only a fool would think otherwise.

​

For the grace (mercy) of God that brings salvation (The Word/Jesus Christ) has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions (just as Jesus showed us by His example/life style/teachings while on the earth), and to live self controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age (by observing Christs example of living/teachings and applying it to our own daily lives).

That is what I get from it in a nutshell anyway.

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Here we go. The word we read as "teaches" in the Greek is not the word used for a classroom/teacher setting.


Here is an illustration to show you how this Greek was used in teaching.





It says that this type of grace teaching has appeared to all men. Not just believers!

Its why unbeliever hell-raisers we knew in our youth learn to say "NO!" and begin to live moral and upright lives as they become adults. Its not just for believers. Its for all men.





That is why telling unbelievers that you gave up "this and that" after you believed in Jesus does not mean much to them. For God has given this morality to all men who are willing to learn.

On the other hand.. Its believers that are recipients of virtue. A way designed by God that supersedes even human morality. Only believers who walk in the filling of the Spirit and in truth know of this virtue. Its actually grace-power from God to be free from what normally would tempt a person.

Many legalistic, judgmental, churches harp on morality. And, not on how to become free and relaxed in the face of temptation. Virtue is a form of supernatural morality with real power. Virtue also fills one with power to produce actions that supersedes that persons natural ability to do what is right according to mere morality.

Grace and peace.......