Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

iamlamad

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According to what you have been taught. Not according to Holy Writ. You have been unable to provide one Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. That alone ends the discussion. That is proof you hold to an extra-biblical man-made theory. It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text exposes its error.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

I wrote, "Just so you know, The "Day of the Lord" starts before the 70th week (at the 6th seal, Rev. 6. You wrote "not according to Holy Writ."

It seems anything that disagrees with your learned doctrine is "not according to Holy Writ." Ha ha! This reminds me of a story: some grown men were arguing about how many teeth in a horse's mouth. A youngster said, "there is a horse in the barn: go out and count them!" He was whipped for his insolence and sent to bed.

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Now I will guess you will answer with, "but WHO said that? The same people that are hiding from God."


Sorry, but all these are goofy questions. The "tribulation" is mentioned in Matthew 24. We don't need to have it mentioned anywhere else.

The tribulation is mentioned in Matthew 24, but we find the 7 years in Daniel 9 and other places.

This is the whole point: we only need to find something written ONCE. It is the word of God and is TRUTH. The 1000 years is written plainly in one place, and that is all that is necessary for most people to believe it.

All these questions are answered in other places.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I wrote, "Just so you know, The "Day of the Lord" starts before the 70th week (at the 6th seal, Rev. 6. You wrote "not according to Holy Writ."

It seems anything that disagrees with your learned doctrine is "not according to Holy Writ." Ha ha! This reminds me of a story: some grown men were arguing about how many teeth in a horse's mouth. A youngster said, "there is a horse in the barn: go out and count them!" He was whipped for his insolence and sent to bed.

12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Now I will guess you will answer with, "but WHO said that? The same people that are hiding from God."


Sorry, but all these are goofy questions. The "tribulation" is mentioned in Matthew 24. We don't need to have it mentioned anywhere else.

The tribulation is mentioned in Matthew 24, but we find the 7 years in Daniel 9 and other places.

This is the whole point: we only need to find something written ONCE. It is the word of God and is TRUTH. The 1000 years is written plainly in one place, and that is all that is necessary for most people to believe it.

All these questions are answered in other places.

Once again you do not have answers., This shows that Pretrib is a man-made doctrine, that does not have one single proof text in the sacred pages. Your avoidance once again shows us it doesn't exist in the Bible.

1. There is no tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9.
2. There is no 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9.
3. There is no rapture mentioned in Daniel 9.
4. There is no 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9.
5. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that tells us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown.
6. There is no antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9.
7. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that says antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years.
8. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that teaches antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel.
9. There are no tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9.
10. There is no mention in Daniel 9 of the rebuilding of a third temple.

You have repeatedly avoided some important questions because you know they expose the Pretrib paradigm.
 
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iamlamad

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You are not getting what I am saying. You are inventing an age that does not exist. It is unknown to the Old Testament, Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers.

Think about it: we are looking at the supposed second greatest age in history. If this is supposed to be what you say it to be - namely the greatest age outside of the new heavens and new earth - then why did none of the other writers allude to it? If there is no corroboration to support your supposed "second greatest age" in history then we have the right to reject it. Premil has nothing. That is why Premils dump every passage imaginable into it - from "last days" passages to "the new heavens and new earth" passages. This is because it has no corroboration for all its fundamental beliefs.

There are countless references to the first Advent of Jesus Christ but nothing to support the Premil take on Revelation 20 re a future age following the second coming. There are countless references to the new heavens and new earth but nothing to support the Premil take on Revelation 20 re a future age following the second coming. This is why Amils believe such a concept is imaginary.

Premillennialism speak long and loud about an intermediary age in-between the last days and the new heavens and new earth. They relate passage after passage in the Old Testament to this supposed future age. The only problem is: Christ or none of the New Testament writers ever speak of this age or locate any of these Old Testament passages to the same.

Where my main concern with the Premil doctrine arises is with their creating a belief which is unknown to the other writers in Scripture and your building of such a mammoth school of thought upon one lone passage in the most complex and symbolic book in Scripture. A doctrine that is unknown to every single writer up until John in Revelation. If it were true, this would be the 2nd greatest age in history squashed in between "this age" (in time) and the "age to come" (the eternal state) yet this 1,000 yrs is mentioned nowhere in the sacred pages. Anyway, Scripture only knows of two ages – which I have just mentioned. None of the Old Testament prophets or New Testament writers mention a literal 1,000 yrs in which Satan is bound and where the glorified saints inherit a new earth along with billions of mortal sinners. None mention a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future earthly millennial kingdom.

You are not getting what I am saying. You are inventing an age that does not exist.
You are mistaken: it WILL exist in our future, because it is written in God's Holy Word. To be totally truthful, where it does not exist is in your doctrine.

It is unknown to the Old Testament, Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers. Let's tell the truth: it is unknown in your doctrine. Jesus is the AUTHOR of the scriptures, So of course if it is written anywhere - and it is - then Jesus knows about it. It seems it is you that don't know. How many times did Jesus mention "the age to come?"

"second greatest age...then why did none of the other writers allude to it? First, you are imposing human thinking on it. Maybe in God's mind it is NOT the "second greatest age." You will have to take this question up with God, since He is the Author. A better question would be "why didn't God have other writers write about it?" (God is the author, not the writer.)

When we consider how little one person is to the plans of God, why should He write passage after passage about an age, when man would be powerless to do anything about it? It is not in our power to start an age or end an age. On the other hand, there is much an individual can do about salvation. In that case, God has written much about salvation. It will be a blessed age, so God would not have to put warning after warning to avoid it as He did with the "Day of the Lord."

Indeed, the great, White Throne judgment is one of the most awesome events in the history of the planet, it is is written in ONE book: Revelation. I wonder, do you doubt this judgment will take place? I wonder, do you doubt the Holy City will come down? Do you doubt there is a river of life? Do you doubt there is 12 foundations on the city, and the names of the Apostles are written thereon?

Now I have given you more subjects you can spend weeks discussing why they are not to be believed.

You could argue:
If there is no corroboration to support "the river of life" in the rest of scripture, then we have the right to reject it.
If there is no corroboration to support "the great, white throne judgment" in the rest of scripture, then we have the right to reject it.
If there is no corroboration to support "a city 1500 miles cubed" in the rest of scripture, then we have the right to reject it.
If there is no corroboration to support "a second resurrection for the damned" in the rest of scripture, then we have the right to reject it.

The truth is, multiplied millions of believers believe in these things because they are in the bible ONCE.

Premillennialism speak long and loud about an intermediary age in-between the last days and the new heavens and new earth.
Yes, it is scriptural. That is why we all wonder why YOU don't believe it.

Look, you have chosen not to believe in the 1000 years and make it symbolic. It is your choice. Others have chosen to take it literally, and it is their choice.

Will it affect your salvation? No. One can become born again knowing only John 3:16 or another single scripture. It used to be that premil was a minority belief. Today I would say it is a majority belief. You cannot stop it!
 
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iamlamad

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Once again you do not have answers., This shows that Pretrib is a man-made doctrine, that does not have one single proof text in the sacred pages. Your avoidance once again shows us it doesn't exist in the Bible.

1. There is no tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9.
2. There is no 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9.
3. There is no rapture mentioned in Daniel 9.
4. There is no 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9.
5. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that tells us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown.
6. There is no antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9.
7. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that says antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years.
8. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that teaches antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel.
9. There are no tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9.
10. There is no mention in Daniel 9 of the rebuilding of a third temple.

You have repeatedly avoided some important questions because you know they expose the Pretrib paradigm.

Once again you do not have answers.,
I get it! AFter so many of your posts, I GET IT! I finally get it! No answer is an answer if it disagrees with you!

So any kind of an answer is no answer. So it is a complete waste of time answering someone who will accept no answers. Got it!
 
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parousia70

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His expulsion from Heaven is not contextually in the past tense but in the future tense

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Was Jesus Mistaken?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Once again you do not have answers., I get it! AFter so many of your posts, I GET IT! I finally get it! No answer is an answer if it disagrees with you!

So any kind of an answer is no answer. So it is a complete waste of time answering someone who will accept no answers. Got it!

zero evidence + zero evidence = zero evidence. Pretrib is based upon man not Scripture.
 
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RickReads

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John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Was Jesus Mistaken?

I recall 3 casting out events in the Bible,

1) "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." This ocurred when the angels rebelled.

2) "now the ruler of this world will be cast out." In this "cast out" satan was cast out of Jesus Kingdom. It is the proclaimation that has resulted in a believers power over the enemy. Satan is able to tresspass at times but he is barred from the Kingdom in the legal sense.

3) "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." This event will occur after an invasion of Heaven by satan and his army of angels and a war in heaven sometime in the future.
 
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Contenders Edge

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  • Your conclusions are based upon inventing a 3rd age that Jesus and none of the NT writer knew or taught. They only knew and taught of 2 ages - this age and the age to come.
  • Your conclusions are based upon an unhealthy obsession with one single highly-debated chapter, located in the most obscure setting in Scripture.
  • Your conclusions are based upon ignoring the explicit climactic detail of repeated Scripture.
  • Your conclusions are based upon a refusal to interpret Scripture with Scripture.
  • Your conclusions are based upon explaining away the clear and explicit with the symbolic and the obscure.
  • Your conclusions are based upon a faulty hyper-literal approach to Revelation.
  • Your conclusions are based upon a faulty chronological approach to Revelation.


If they didn't know about this third age as you call it, then why did Apostle John write about it?
As for the rest of your charges, second verse same as the first.
 
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That doesn`t sound fun.


It won't be, but I will do so if so necessary just to show that I have been answering his challenges and arguments and not avoiding them.
 
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John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Was Jesus Mistaken?


No but He didn't say that Satan was going to leave without a fight first either.
 
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Timtofly

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Satan is most certainly NOT accusing any of the brothers any more. His ministry as the O.T. accuser of the saints came to an end when Christ stripped him of all authority and granted righteousness by faith to all the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 tells how the blood of the Lamb has granted this victory, and is tied to Paul's teaching in Romans:

Rom 8:30-31,33
Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then will we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Who could bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

This passage shows how satan's O.T. role as accuser of the brethren (see Job 1 and 2; Rev 12:10-11) is now over. He simply can make no accusation, for the Judge has fully pardoned all his people and based upon the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus.




Satan is defeated to Christ and his Church. In fact, this was the very purpose of Christ's ministry (see 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14-15; John 12:31; Col 2:15; Matthew 16:18-19; Matthew 28:18-19, etc), yet many today seem to deny that Christ was successful.

It certainly is true that those outside the Kingdom of God are bound in chains of sin and darkness and are the "sons of satan" (as was Cain and as were the rulers of Israel Jesus spoke against in John 8:44) -- but look at how bound and powerless satan is to all the Sons of God (Acts 26:17-18; Matthew 12:28-29; Luke 10:19; Mark 16:17, etc). Jesus said the time for the satan to have been cast out was back in HIS time (John 12:31).

So we must not UNDO the work of Christ in this matter by a retroactive faith that places us back in time as if we are a people living PRIOR to Christ's victory over satan. What a travesty it is, IMHO, to see how the eschatological doctrine of futurism is always robbing Christ of his power and completed work.
I think the lack of believers in exercising their power is what limits Christ. With the harlot church, Satan does not even need to be bound.
 
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Timtofly

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No you have not. The opposite is the truth. Your pattern is: when you have no answers you just avoid and complain. The last two subjects on this thread you have run from them with no answers. Please stick to the truth. Answer these, if you can.

First subject



You do not seem to want to interpret Scripture with Scripture. You seem to want to explain away NT truth by your faulty Premil opinion of OT truth. The unfortunate thing for you is: you have no mention of a thousand years age in the OT.

Zechariah 12:10 says, And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

This relates to when Messiah appeared nearly 2,000 years ago. As predicted, salvation flowed out from the Cross – firstly to Israel, then to the nations. Many, many Jews have accepted Christ and His sacrifice for sin since then. Many came to a personal faith in Christ after the resurrection. Since then, countless Gentiles have entered into the joy of sins forgiven. The cross is man’s only hope; it is the only means by which sinful man (Jew or Gentile, pre-Calvary or post) can enter into union with God. It is the only way that man can be reconciled onto sinful creatures and experience the wonderful quickening “spirit of grace.” The Holy Spirit came like rivers of living water to all who would believe in Christ. Jews by the thousands, as well as new Gentile converts were the welcome recipients of this following Calvary.

John 19:30-37 says, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken (speaking of Psalms 34:20). And again another scripture (speaking of Zechariah 12:10) saith, they shall look on him whom they pierced.”

This is absolute evidence that Christ Israel's Messiah and that He is God!

Second subject




Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree here. Paul carefully describes the Jews who have been cut off as “natural branches” and being of “their own olive tree.” This shows us that this is an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent natural Israelis, and faith in Christ is the criterion for partaking in “the olive tree,” we can only be looking at the faithful genetic seed of Abraham who embraced Christ. This is the elect remnant of Israel. It was this holy remnant that remained attached to the Israeli olive tree that the Gentiles who believed now join in this new covenant era. This fulfils various Old Testament predictions that through Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

Dispensationalist John McArthur even acknowledges: “And so the new life which enables us Gentiles to produce fruit unto God is the covenant stock of Israel that we’ve been grafted into” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 2).

This olive tree, which currently consists of both believing Jews and Gentiles, is therefore the continuation of spiritual Israel, only operating now under the broader new covenant arrangement. Consequently, it contains the full number of new covenant believers regardless of race or natural DNA. This metaphor describes the incorporation of Gentile believers into a decidedly Hebraic tree. But this is no natural tree. We are clearly looking here at a spiritual tree, because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of “faith.” After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. The reason for Christ-rejecting Israel’s banishment from the tree’s blessings was “unbelief.” The reason for Gentile acceptance was because “they” stood “by faith.”

If God had two distinct chosen peoples, then He would not have integrated the believing Gentiles into a believing Jewish tree. The phrase “wert graffed in” is taken from the lone Greek word egkentrizo meaning ‘to ingraft’. It comes up 6 times in the New Testament – all between Romans 11:17-24.

We should not miss: this is a conditional wording of Paul’s comments. The writer here qualifies this important statement by saying “if.” This begs the question: “if” what? He then goes on to explain: “if they do not continue in unbelief.” Now, this is not a unique promise! It is a conditional promise that lies before every single nation throughout the world since the cross. Israel is not prohibited from being integrated into the global body of Christ. They can be grafted into the good olive tree. The Gospel can once again be heard throughout the breath of the much-diminished country, but they must bow the knee to Jesus Christ in repentance when God speaks. No one can say with any credence that God is finished with Israel.

Time to stop avoiding.
Neither of these points can be convoluted into Revelation 20. Stop speculating.
 
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Timtofly

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Premillennialism speak long and loud about an intermediary age in-between the last days and the new heavens and new earth. They relate passage after passage in the Old Testament to this supposed future age. The only problem is: Christ or none of the New Testament writers ever speak of this age or locate any of these Old Testament passages to the same.
So you place sin in the new heavens and earth?
 
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Timtofly

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According to what you have been taught. Not according to Holy Writ. You have been unable to provide one Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ. That alone ends the discussion. That is proof you hold to an extra-biblical man-made theory. It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text exposes its error.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?
Where does it say Christ is born and dies in Daniel 9?
 
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eclipsenow

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The Two Ages model makes vastly more sense of all scripture than the Premil model/s that people try to draw up (and then guess the return date, fail, guess the return date, fail, guess the return date, fail... all of which makes us seem absurd to the outside world and ironically goes towards creating more "scoffers" of 2 Peter 3).
Dr Kim Riddlebarger describes the 2 age model - the standard eschatology of the church fathers, puritans, Reformers, and great theologians today.
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger
 
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