Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

DavidPT · Oct 6, 2020

claninja said:
Notice in this passage, "must reign" is present tense. Jesus was presently reigning from the heavens in the 1st century, according to Paul.

I fully agree that He is already reigning before He bodily returns in the end of this age. He simply continues reigning until the great white throne judgement is entirely finished, but now it would be in a bodily sense.

To me it doesn't even remotely seem reasonable that all of the following events can be fulfilled within 24 hours or less----all of the wicked still alive when Jesus bodily returns, being destroyed, the beast and false prophet, plus satan and his angels, these all getting cast into the LOF, all of the dead rising then being judged at the great white throne judgment, not to mention, those that get to sit upon 12 thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And something else to consider, when Christ sits upon His throne of glory, would He still be doing that after 1 Corinthians 15:24 and 1 Corinthians 15:28 have been fulfilled, the fact this throne of glory appears to be connected with---all rule and all authority and power, where we see in 1 Corinthians 15:24 that eventually He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power? Are we to then believe He only gets to sit upon His throne of glory for no more than 24 hours at most, keeping in mind, Matthew 25 already proves He doesn't sit upon His throne of glory until He bodily returns first?

parousia70 · Oct 6, 2020

Timtofly said:
You must be happy there is not the word soon in Matthew 12:29?

Was that supposed to answer my question about what you mean when you say "its coming soon"?

I don't remember you giving a straight answer for that yet...

What do you mean by "its coming soon"? and why, when you say that, are we supposed to understand you mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the apostles meant when they said " its coming soon"?

Or do you mean the same thing they did when they said it?

parousia70 · Oct 6, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Satan was NOT in any way bound in the manner in which Revelation 20 is speaking of.

So, you believe during this future millennium of satan being bound, even the unrepentant will share in Christ's Victory over Him?
Is that correct?

Zao is life · Oct 6, 2020

BABerean2 said:
And the timing of the chapter is found below.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, the fire comes at His return.)
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, the judgment of the dead occurs at His appearing. It is the same time of the judgment of the dead found in Revelation 11:8.)
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How long did it take you to read what is written above in Blue?

.

What is written in blue proves you're ignoring the difference between the lake of fire, and fire coming down from heaven.

What is written in blue also proves that you conveniently ignore the second death, and the fact that it only has power over those who are not raised at the second coming of Christ, but are delivered up by death and hades after the final rebellion when death and hades deliver all the dead in them, and after Satan has been thrown into the lake of fire.

What is written in blue proves that you conveniently ignore the fact that Satan is cast into the lake of fire only after fire has come down from heaven, and you ignore the fact that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire at that point, having been cast into the lake of fire before the one-thousand year period.

What is written in blue, plus your insistence that Satan is already bound and in the bottomless out despite all the statements of the Lord and His apostles to the contrary, proves that you haven't the foggiest clue about what is written in blue or where it belongs in time.

DavidPT · Oct 6, 2020

parousia70 said:
So, you believe during this future millennium of satan being bound, even the unrepentant will share in Christ's Victory over Him?
Is that correct?

Do you dispute, that initially satan was in good standing with God, and was literally physically dwelling in the presence of God, yet rebelled, regardless? Assuming Premil, isn't that basically what happens in the end? Even though some of these have been dwelling in the physical presence of God, they rebel, regardless. Before the 2nd coming, it is not clear to everyone that there is literally a God. It is not clear to everyone that Jesus is literally this God. But after the 2nd coming it will be clear to everyone. And assuming Premil, it will be clear to every single mortal survivor that Jesus is God, yet, most of them will rebel in the end, regardless.

Zao is life · Oct 6, 2020

parousia70 said:
So, you believe during this future millennium of satan being bound, even the unrepentant will share in Christ's Victory over Him?
Is that correct?

There will be no unrepentant people during the millennium. Don't you understand what the scriptures mean when the scriptures say that Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit and unable to deceive the nations, and Christ will be reigning over all nations with a rod of iron? The satanic spirit won't exist until Satan is loosed again.

You've falsely assumed a lot of things in your false A-millennial virtual-reality bubble.

Zao is life · Oct 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
Do you dispute, that initially satan was in good standing with God, and was literally physically dwelling in the presence of God, yet rebelled, regardless? Assuming Premil, isn't that basically what happens in the end? Even though some of these have been dwelling in the physical presence of God, they rebel, regardless. Before the 2nd coming, it is not clear to everyone that there is literally a God. It is not clear to everyone that Jesus is literally this God. But after the 2nd coming it will be clear to everyone. And assuming Premil, it will be clear to every single mortal survivor that Jesus is God, yet, most of them will rebel in the end, regardless.

I agree - but they rebel because the satanic spirit that deceives is loosed again with Satan from the abyss.

parousia70 · Oct 6, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
There will be no unrepentant people during the millennium.

Can you demonstrate this claim from scripture?

And if that is true, then who are these people who will get no rain and be punished for disobeying during the Millennium?:
Zechariah 14:16-19
16Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Who are these people being punished and stricken by God with plague during the Millennium for disobeying?

And How is it even possible for anyone to Disobey Jesus while Satan is Bound and He is ruling with a Rod of Iron??

You seem to assert it will be IMPOSSIBLE, so again, who ARE these people in Zechariah 14, who are disobeying God during the Millennium that God punishes for doing so, if your claim is that no such people will exist there??

Do you know something Zechariah Didn't?
Was Zechariah mistaken?

Don't you understand what the scriptures mean when the scriptures say that Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit and unable to deceive the nations, and Christ will be reigning over all nations with a rod of iron?

Why don’t you illuminate what it means, if it means something different than what Zechariah describes?

The satanic spirit won't exist until Satan is loosed again.

so, your contention is that human beings are 100% incapable of sinning without satan being behind it, influencing it, tempting them?

Human beings have no capacity to sin all on our own? We require Satanic influence before we are capable of sinning?

do I understand you correctly?

DavidPT · Oct 6, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
There will be no unrepentant people during the millennium. Don't you understand what the scriptures mean when the scriptures say that Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit and unable to deceive the nations, and Christ will be reigning over all nations with a rod of iron? The satanic spirit won't exist until Satan is loosed again.

You've falsely assumed a lot of things in your false A-millennial virtual-reality bubble.

Perhaps parousia70's point is this? The fact they would be in an unsaved state when Jesus initially returns, that makes them unrepentant sinners. The argument doesn't seem to be whether or not they remain unrepentant during the millennium, but how did they gain access to begin with, the fact they are in an unrepentant state when Christ returns? parousia70 makes a descent point, assuming I am on the same page with him, or at least close. But not that it's enough to make me change my mind about when the millennium is meaning, though.

BABerean2 · Oct 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
But not that it's enough to make me change my mind about when the millennium is meaning, though.

If Jesus cannot convince you in Matthew 25:31-46, and Paul cannot convince you in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Peter cannot convince you in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and John cannot convince you in Revelation 11:15-18, how can any of us convince you?

.

Timtofly · Oct 6, 2020

BABerean2 said:
And the timing of the chapter is found below.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, the fire comes at His return.)
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, the judgment of the dead occurs at His appearing. It is the same time of the judgment of the dead found in Revelation 11:8.)
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

How long did it take you to read what is written above in Blue?

.

How is Revelation 20:10 a return? Christ and those with Him are in Zion, Jerusalem, the camp of the saints. No return, only fire from Heaven. The fire from your other text is during Armageddon and the tribulation itself. Only one return, but many fires from God and heaven. It is only after the GWT, that this present existence is destroyed. How can you place the GWT at the battle of Armageddon. The positions are reversed. At Armageddon Satan is in Jerusalem and Christ comes from the sky. At the end of the 1000 years, Christ is in Jerusalem and Satan is loosed from the pit, and comes against Jerusalem.

Timtofly · Oct 6, 2020

parousia70 said:
Was that supposed to answer my question about what you mean when you say "its coming soon"?

I don't remember you giving a straight answer for that yet...

What do you mean by "its coming soon"? and why, when you say that, are we supposed to understand you mean the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the apostles meant when they said " its coming soon"?

Or do you mean the same thing they did when they said it?

I have not changed the definition, have you?

Zao is life · Oct 6, 2020

parousia70 said:
Can you demonstrate this claim from scripture?

And if that is true, then who are these people who will get no rain and be punished for disobeying during the Millennium?:
Zechariah 14:16-19
16Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.d 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them. 18And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Who are these people being punished and stricken by God with plague during the Millennium for disobeying?

And How is it even possible for anyone to Disobey Jesus while Satan is Bound and He is ruling with a Rod of Iron??

You seem to assert it will be IMPOSSIBLE, so again, who ARE these people in Zechariah 14, who are disobeying God during the Millennium that God punishes for doing so, if your claim is that no such people will exist there??

Do you know something Zechariah Didn't?
Was Zechariah mistaken?

Why don’t you illuminate what it means, if it means something different than what Zechariah describes?

so, your contention is that human beings are 100% incapable of sinning without satan being behind it, influencing it, tempting them?

Human beings have no capacity to sin all on our own? We require Satanic influence before we are capable of sinning?

do I understand you correctly?

Isn't it amazing how suddenly, when it's convenient for you, what Zechariah prophesied, is true and should be quoted by you.

It will be something like the the nations of today experiencing the Olympics, except that this is a Biblical festival and will be held once a year, every year. Obviously, any "king" of the nations will be aware of the consequences to his country of not sending a delegation to Jerusalem once a year.

You're asking for specifics when the only specifics given are:-

1. That the LORD will be king over all the earth, will reign with a rod of iron over the nations, and there will be saints already resurrected, reigning over the nations with Him, and the nations will go up from year to year to worship the King, YHVH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles; and if any nation does not send a delegation, that country will experience drought.

What is implied in it is:-

(A) That there will be no other religion on earth during the millennium - that much is obvious because it's most certainly implied by (a) the fact that the Lord will be reigning over all nations with a rod of iron and Satan will be bound, in the abyss and completely unable to deceive or go about with his satanic activity; and

(B) The mortals who are alive during the millennium will be no different than Christians of today: sometimes lazy, sometimes doubtful, sometimes full of faith. Paul taught you and me that our bodies which we now inhabit are dead because of sin. We have the old man battling against the new man all our lives.

You don't believe in it, though it's in the scriptures. Do you even believe in the resurrection of the body when it is raised a spiritual body? If you believe scripture, then it won't be so difficult for you to accept what the scripture states instead of what theologians of old decided it meant.

There are so many people in the world who have grown up in countries with cultures which are built up around religions that give the people no clue who Christ truly is. Billions of people. Billions of people for whom conversion to Christ is extreme disloyalty to parents, family and community. They also include most of the world's Jews, who are a handful among the billions of lost souls on the planet.

When Christ is seen coming in the clouds, it will most certainly change everyone's mind - but not in time for all those who change their minds only at that point to be part of the resurrection of the saints. The word "repentance" is based on a change of mind, a change of heart:

"Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:29).

Zao is life · Oct 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
Perhaps parousia70's point is this? The fact they would be in an unsaved state when Jesus initially returns, that makes them unrepentant sinners. The argument doesn't seem to be whether or not they remain unrepentant during the millennium, but how did they gain access to begin with, the fact they are in an unrepentant state when Christ returns? parousia70 makes a descent point, assuming I am on the same page with him, or at least close. But not that it's enough to make me change my mind about when the millennium is meaning, though.

Well, I only picked up that @parousia70 is grasping at straws, because suddenly Zechariah's prophecy, which speaks about the coming Kingdom of God on the earth in a very literal sense, is quoted in support of a non-millennium.

There are so many people in the world who have grown up in countries with cultures which are built up around religions that give the people no clue who Christ truly is. Billions of people. Billions of people for whom conversion to Christ is extreme disloyalty to parents, family and community. They also include most of the world's Jews, who are a handful among the billions of lost souls on the planet.

When Christ is seen coming in the clouds, it will most certainly change everyone's mind - but not in time for all those who change their minds only at that point to be part of the resurrection of the saints. The word "repentance" is based on a change of mind, a change of heart:

"Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:29).

parousia70 · Oct 6, 2020

Timtofly said:
I have not changed the definition, have you?

So when you say "it's coming soon", you mean the same thing the apostles meant when they said it?

parousia70 · Oct 6, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Isn't it amazing how suddenly, when it's convenient for you, what Zechariah prophesied, is true and should be quoted by you.

It will be something like the the nations of today experiencing the Olympics, except that this is a Biblical festival and will be held once a year, every year. Obviously, any "king" of the nations will be aware of the consequences to his country of not sending a delegation to Jerusalem once a year.

You're asking for specifics when the only specifics given are:-

1. That the LORD will be king over all the earth, will reign with a rod of iron over the nations, and there will be saints already resurrected, reigning over the nations with Him, and the nations will go up from year to year to worship the King, YHVH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles; and if any nation does not send a delegation, that country will experience drought.

What is implied in it is:-

(A) That there will be no other religion on earth during the millennium - that much is obvious because it's most certainly implied by (a) the fact that the Lord will be reigning over all nations with a rod of iron and Satan will be bound, in the abyss and completely unable to deceive or go about with his satanic activity; and

(B) The mortals who are alive during the millennium will be no different than Christians of today: sometimes lazy, sometimes doubtful, sometimes full of faith. Paul taught you and me that our bodies which we now inhabit are dead because of sin. We have the old man battling against the new man all our lives.

You don't believe in it, though it's in the scriptures. Do you even believe in the resurrection of the body when it is raised a spiritual body? If you believe scripture, then it won't be so difficult for you to accept what the scripture states instead of what theologians of old decided it meant.

There are so many people in the world who have grown up in countries with cultures which are built up around religions that give the people no clue who Christ truly is. Billions of people. Billions of people for whom conversion to Christ is extreme disloyalty to parents, family and community. They also include most of the world's Jews, who are a handful among the billions of lost souls on the planet.

When Christ is seen coming in the clouds, it will most certainly change everyone's mind - but not in time for all those who change their minds only at that point to be part of the resurrection of the saints. The word "repentance" is based on a change of mind, a change of heart:

"Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:29).

Get back to me when you decide not to avoid my questions. None of which you answered in this post...

Again, HOW does someone disobey Jesus, committing the sin of refusing to celebrate the feast in the Millennium, if your implication is that such betrayal of Christ will be impossible while Satan is bound?

And I like how you changed the scripture FROM:

" all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

TO:
" a delegation of survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17And should any nation of the earth not send a delegation to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.

Nice work-around there. Bravo. :clap:

DavidPT · Oct 6, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If Jesus cannot convince you in Matthew 25:31-46, and Paul cannot convince you in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and Peter cannot convince you in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and John cannot convince you in Revelation 11:15-18, how can any of us convince you?

.

There are numerous ways to convince me, that assuming Amil is actually the correct position. One of those ways would be to show where in Revelation 12 that satan is initially bound a thousand years, and then show in that same chapter, when he is initially released.

When we get to the last verse in that chapter, we are clearly literally in the end of this age, since that verse is meaning what happens during the 42 month reign of the beast. If satan is bound a thousand years in this age, then loosed in this age after the thousand years, that binding and loosing would have to be after the war in heaven, but before the fulfillment of verse 17. So, show the location of these two events in ch 12.

Keeping in mind, according to Revelation 20:1-3, an angel has to come down from heaven in order to even bind satan a thousand years. Where is anything even remotely like that depicted anywhere in ch 12? Ch 12 definitely places him on the earth after the war in heaven. But it does not show an angel coming down from heaven after he has been cast unto the earth, in order to lay hold of satan and cast him into the pit.

And besides, once satan sees he has been cast out of heaven unto the earth, the text indicates...for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

How does this possibly make sense that this is in regards to him being cast into the pit a thousand years, that he has great wrath while bound in the pit?

parousia70 · Oct 6, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Well, I only picked up that @parousia70 is grasping at straws, because suddenly Zechariah's prophecy, which speaks about the coming Kingdom of God on the earth in a very literal sense, is quoted in support of a non-millennium.

If you should ever decide to abandon your own de-literalization of Zechariah's prophesy to suit your view, you'll have a better argument.

The argument: "it's different when I do it" doesn't hold much water with our readers...

BABerean2 · Oct 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
And besides, once satan sees he has been cast out of heaven unto the earth, the text indicates...for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

How did Satan tempt Christ in the wilderness, if he was not already on planet earth?

Mat 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry.
Mat 4:3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
Mat 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.' "
Mat 4:5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'HE SHALL GIVE HIS ANGELS CHARGE OVER YOU,' and, IN THEIR HANDS THEY SHALL BEAR YOU UP, LEST YOU DASH YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.' "
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'YOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD YOUR GOD.' "
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
Mat 4:9 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me."
Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND HIM ONLY YOU SHALL SERVE.' "
Mat 4:11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

.

sovereigngrace · Oct 6, 2020

DavidPT said:
There are numerous ways to convince me, that assuming Amil is actually the correct position. One of those ways would be to show where in Revelation 12 that satan is initially bound a thousand years, and then show in that same chapter, when he is initially released.

When we get to the last verse in that chapter, we are clearly literally in the end of this age, since that verse is meaning what happens during the 42 month reign of the beast. If satan is bound a thousand years in this age, then loosed in this age after the thousand years, that binding and loosing would have to be after the war in heaven, but before the fulfillment of verse 17. So, show the location of these two events in ch 12.

Keeping in mind, according to Revelation 20:1-3, an angel has to come down from heaven in order to even bind satan a thousand years. Where is anything even remotely like that depicted anywhere in ch 12? Ch 12 definitely places him on the earth after the war in heaven. But it does not show an angel coming down from heaven after he has been cast unto the earth, in order to lay hold of satan and cast him into the pit.

And besides, once satan sees he has been cast out of heaven unto the earth, the text indicates...for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time

How does this possibly make sense that this is in regards to him being cast into the pit a thousand years, that he has great wrath while bound in the pit?

One shows what happened to Satan in heaven after Christ's first resurrection and the other describes what happened to him on earth after he was banished. Easy! Scripture covers different events and different peoples at different times. That is not hard to grasp, unless you have a theological agenda to sustain.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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