Is the Day of the Lord exactly 1000 years as Premils claim?

sovereigngrace

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You are the one who is not grasping what Revelation 20 is actually saying as you hold to a symbolic interpretation thereof that the text thereof does not corroborate.





The intent is that all are to be enlightened and that will surely come to pass. And Premils are not arguing for the universal salvation of nations.





You make it sound as though the Gospel has gone forth without fierce resistance from the forces of darkness but that is not the picture that scripture gives in that while we who are in Christ are redeemed from our sins and given eventual liberty from death, the Bible often times warns us of opposition, not just from man, but also from the dark forces unseen and that opposition and resistance to the Gospel has taken place in more ways than one.

Those who deny that there is still an ongoing spiritual warfare will be the first to become discouraged when resistance comes their way and their faith will be the first to be shaken because they were unprepared for the fight and underestimated the formidability of our adversary.




If they inhabit people, then they inhabit nations that are formed and maintained by the people. As to what extent they inhabit a nation depends on how many people within that nation they have in their possession and service and as the Apostle Paul pointed out, people and even entire nations can still be deceived. (2 Cor. 4:4)





You don't require everything mentioned only once in scripture to be corroborated by other scripture and don't call the acceptance of those things as they are presented as being a false doctrine but why treat Revelation 20 any differently?

You must rubbish the success of the great commission in order to let the Premil theory fit. But it lacks any biblical corroboration (which you have admitted) because it is a forced doctrine that was never held by any of the NT writers and orthodox early church fathers.
 
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BABerean2

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and there is no reason to believe that the book of Revelation was written without a chronology


No reason, except that He comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and he also comes in chapter 19...


.
 
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RickReads

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No reason, except that He comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and he also comes in chapter 19...


.

He comes as a thief at the first resurrection. The battle of Armageddon occurs later and His appearance there is a public display of His power.

Chapters and verses were added by the King James translators. That isn`t the chronology. The seven seals are the Chronology and they follow the same trajectory as the signs given by Jesus in Matthew 24.
 
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Contenders Edge

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I wish I had known that before I invested my time in them.


Whenever you see a response post that looks like it has content that you might have seen on a post previous to that, it is always a good idea to search every response post by that particular person to see if their most recent response post is really anything new or if they are simply cut and pasting old content. Sometimes they will cut and paste old content amongst new content in hopes of fooling you into thinking that you are responding to an entirely new post. It is one tactic they use to keep the spinning wheel going round and round.

The original poster has to keep this debate going in whatever way he and for as long as he can because if he doesn't, he will appear defeated in the eyes of his followers and readers, even if he thinks he is winning the argument. Whether or not he thinks he is winning the debate is not as relevant as to whether not readers of this thread think he is. The most humiliating thing for any OP is to either be defeated or appear to be defeated on their own thread. It makes them look weak and Sovereign Grace cannot afford to appear weak and he will use deceptive tactics to make us go around in circles if he has to and it is done for the purpose of causing mental exhaustion. Call it psychological warfare if you'd like.
 
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Contenders Edge

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No reason, except that He comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and he also comes in chapter 19...


.


You still have not been able to answer the question how Jesus is able to come as a thief at Armageddon when the forces of darkness are clearly prepared to meet Him in battle there. (Rev. 17:12-14, 19:19)
 
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BABerean2

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You still have not been able to answer the question how Jesus is able to come as a thief at Armageddon when the forces of darkness are clearly prepared to meet Him in battle there. (Rev. 17:12-14, 19:19)

I do not have to answer the question of how.

I understand the text of Revelation 16:15-16 is one of several visions of His Second Coming.


.
 
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Christians go into the presence of Jesus upon death since the cross. Satan is definitely not welcome there any more.

Who cares that the devil is resisting. Premils are always lauding the nature, power and ability of Satan in thwarting the Church during the intra-Advent period. Amils concentrate upon the victorious power of the Church as it overcomes Satan and takes the light of the Gospel to the darkened nations.


If Satan is not permitted to enter into Heaven for any particular reason, then why does the title of the accuser still apply to him? His accusations may be in vain, but that doesn't stop him from hurling them against us before God in Heaven.

No one is claiming that Satan is thwarting the Church, but he nonetheless does everything he can to hinder the mission of the Church and while Premils also celebrate the victorious power of Christ, we know that the age-long war for souls still rages and will continue to rage until Satan no longer has a presence in the world and therefore as we glory in the victory we have in Christ, we dare not underestimate the formidability of our adversary or declare the age-long war to be yet over. It will not end until Satan is finally cast into the Lake of Fire.
 
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I do not have to answer the question of how.

I understand the text of Revelation 16:15-16 is one of several visions of His Second Coming.


.


Actually, you do have to answer that question.
 
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RickReads

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Whenever you see a response post that looks like it has content that you might have seen on a post previous to that, it is always a good idea to search every response post by that particular person to see if their most recent response post is really anything new or if they are simply cut and pasting old content. Sometimes they will cut and paste old content amongst new content in hopes of fooling you into thinking that you are responding to an entirely new post. It is one tactic they use to keep the spinning wheel going round and round.

The original poster has to keep this debate going in whatever way he and for as long as he can because if he doesn't, he will appear defeated in the eyes of his followers and readers, even if he thinks he is winning the argument. Whether or not he thinks he is winning the debate is not as relevant as to whether not readers of this thread think he is. The most humiliating thing for any OP is to either be defeated or appear to be defeated on their own thread. It makes them look weak and Sovereign Grace cannot afford to appear weak and he will use deceptive tactics to make us go around in circles if he has to and it is done for the purpose of causing mental exhaustion. Call it psychological warfare if you'd like.

I`ve posted substantial scripture that hasn`t been accounted for. I thought maybe if I answered his questions then he might try to deal with my challenge to his views. It was fun at first but tedious by the end, especially if he doesn`t take the time to reveal the traps he thinks my answers put me into :doh:
 
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You must rubbish the success of the great commission in order to let the Premil theory fit. But it lacks any biblical corroboration (which you have admitted) because it is a forced doctrine that was never held by any of the NT writers and orthodox early church fathers.


We are not rubbishing anything, but you are rubbishing the plain sense meaning of scripture in order to make your Amil doctrine fit by imposing symbolism where it is not warranted and once more, there are other things besides the thousand year reign that are mentioned only once in scripture and no where else in scripture that you do not demand corroboration for in order for it to be accepted as truth yet you treat Revelation 20 differently. Why?
 
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I`ve posted substantial scripture that hasn`t been accounted for. I thought maybe if I answered his questions then he might try to deal with my challenge to his views. It was fun at first but tedious by the end, especially if he doesn`t take the time to reveal the traps he thinks my answers put me into :doh:


There have been challenges and questions of my own that he has not answered either and important ones at that.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Whenever you see a response post that looks like it has content that you might have seen on a post previous to that, it is always a good idea to search every response post by that particular person to see if their most recent response post is really anything new or if they are simply cut and pasting old content. Sometimes they will cut and paste old content amongst new content in hopes of fooling you into thinking that you are responding to an entirely new post. It is one tactic they use to keep the spinning wheel going round and round.

The original poster has to keep this debate going in whatever way he and for as long as he can because if he doesn't, he will appear defeated in the eyes of his followers and readers, even if he thinks he is winning the argument. Whether or not he thinks he is winning the debate is not as relevant as to whether not readers of this thread think he is. The most humiliating thing for any OP is to either be defeated or appear to be defeated on their own thread. It makes them look weak and Sovereign Grace cannot afford to appear weak and he will use deceptive tactics to make us go around in circles if he has to and it is done for the purpose of causing mental exhaustion. Call it psychological warfare if you'd like.

This is just another evasive rant. Let me translate. What you are basically saying is: I have no rebuttal for the Op or any of the Amil posts on this thread, I must therefore avoid every point and Scripture that disagrees with my theory.

You have repeatedly admitted the Premil theory lack any corroboration in scripture. It should therefore be rejected.
 
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sovereigngrace

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We are not rubbishing anything, but you are rubbishing the plain sense meaning of scripture in order to make your Amil doctrine fit by imposing symbolism where it is not warranted and once more, there are other things besides the thousand year reign that are mentioned only once in scripture and no where else in scripture that you do not demand corroboration for in order for it to be accepted as truth yet you treat Revelation 20 differently. Why?

Revelation is saturated in symbolism. To say otherwise is blatantly wrong. Until you see that you will never see the timing and meaning of Rev 20.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Whenever you see a response post that looks like it has content that you might have seen on a post previous to that, it is always a good idea to search every response post by that particular person to see if their most recent response post is really anything new or if they are simply cut and pasting old content. Sometimes they will cut and paste old content amongst new content in hopes of fooling you into thinking that you are responding to an entirely new post. It is one tactic they use to keep the spinning wheel going round and round.

The original poster has to keep this debate going in whatever way he and for as long as he can because if he doesn't, he will appear defeated in the eyes of his followers and readers, even if he thinks he is winning the argument. Whether or not he thinks he is winning the debate is not as relevant as to whether not readers of this thread think he is. The most humiliating thing for any OP is to either be defeated or appear to be defeated on their own thread. It makes them look weak and Sovereign Grace cannot afford to appear weak and he will use deceptive tactics to make us go around in circles if he has to and it is done for the purpose of causing mental exhaustion. Call it psychological warfare if you'd like.

This is all ad hominem. This is sadly where it often ends up with Premils: if you cannot attack the message, attack the messenger. It is time to stop avoiding the issues. It is time to start bringing corroboration to the table, if you have it.
 
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This is just another evasive rant. Let me translate. What you are basically saying is: I have no rebuttal for the Op or any of the Amil posts on this thread, I must therefore avoid every point and Scripture that disagrees with my theory.

You have repeatedly admitted the Premil theory lack any corroboration in scripture. It should therefore be rejected.


You've mistranslated: YOU have run out of rebuttals for those challenging the OP and Amil posts on this thread and therefore in order to keep the discussion going, you barf up the same arguments over and over again and when we refuse to answer what we have already answered before, you post those same arguments amongst new content to make your latest response posts appear hoping that your readers and detractors will fall for it and give a different answer to those arguments than they did before.

Once more, there are other things scripture mentions only one time for which no corroboration is demanded in order to be accepted. Premils treat Revelation 20 no differently. We simply just accept it as it is: Events that have yet to take place. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't demand corroboration for other things that are only mentioned by scripture one time, why treat Revelation 20 any differently?
 
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This is all ad hominem. This is sadly where it often ends up with Premils: if you cannot attach the message, attack the messenger. It is time to stop avoiding the issues. It is time to start bringing corroboration to the table, if you have it.


What we don't like is being presented with the same old content and arguments that we have already answered before and what is worse, you have deceptively cut and pasted old content amongst new content to make it appear as though you are presenting new rebuttals when upon examination, you are presenting the same already answered rebuttals in a repackaged form and expecting a different answer. You are not going to get a different answer.
 
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Revelation is saturated in symbolism. To say otherwise is blatantly wrong. Until you see that you will never see the timing and meaning of Rev 20.


Revelation chapter 20 does not happen to be one of those portions of scripture that presents itself in a symbolic format. That is an opinion that you have consistently imposed upon the text without anything from the text to support that interpretation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You've mistranslated: YOU have run out of rebuttals for those challenging the OP and Amil posts on this thread and therefore in order to keep the discussion going, you barf up the same arguments over and over again and when we refuse to answer what we have already answered before, you post those same arguments amongst new content to make your latest response posts appear hoping that your readers and detractors will fall for it and give a different answer to those arguments than they did before.

Once more, there are other things scripture mentions only one time for which no corroboration is demanded in order to be accepted. Premils treat Revelation 20 no differently. We simply just accept it as it is: Events that have yet to take place. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't demand corroboration for other things that are only mentioned by scripture one time, why treat Revelation 20 any differently?

But we are supposedly talking about the greatest age in history outside of the NHNE and you have nothing to support your private interpretation of that chapter. That is why many of us abandoned Premil. It is contradicts numerous Scripture. Your avoidance is testimony to that.
 
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parousia70

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If Satan is not permitted to enter into Heaven for any particular reason, then why does the title of the accuser still apply to him? His accusations may be in vain, but that doesn't stop him from hurling them against us before God in Heaven.
Satan is most certainly NOT accusing any of the brothers any more. His ministry as the O.T. accuser of the saints came to an end when Christ stripped him of all authority and granted righteousness by faith to all the saints. Revelation 12:10-11 tells how the blood of the Lamb has granted this victory, and is tied to Paul's teaching in Romans:

Rom 8:30-31,33
Whom he foreordained, them he also called. Whom he called, them he also justified. Whom he justified, them he also glorified. What then will we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?... Who could bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, yes rather, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

This passage shows how satan's O.T. role as accuser of the brethren (see Job 1 and 2; Rev 12:10-11) is now over. He simply can make no accusation, for the Judge has fully pardoned all his people and based upon the blood of His Sacrificial Lamb, Jesus.


No one is claiming that Satan is thwarting the Church, but he nonetheless does everything he can to hinder the mission of the Church and while Premils also celebrate the victorious power of Christ, we know that the age-long war for souls still rages and will continue to rage until Satan no longer has a presence in the world and therefore as we glory in the victory we have in Christ, we dare not underestimate the formidability of our adversary or declare the age-long war to be yet over. It will not end until Satan is finally cast into the Lake of Fire.

Satan is defeated to Christ and his Church. In fact, this was the very purpose of Christ's ministry (see 1 John 3:8; Hebrews 2:14-15; John 12:31; Col 2:15; Matthew 16:18-19; Matthew 28:18-19, etc), yet many today seem to deny that Christ was successful.

It certainly is true that those outside the Kingdom of God are bound in chains of sin and darkness and are the "sons of satan" (as was Cain and as were the rulers of Israel Jesus spoke against in John 8:44) -- but look at how bound and powerless satan is to all the Sons of God (Acts 26:17-18; Matthew 12:28-29; Luke 10:19; Mark 16:17, etc). Jesus said the time for the satan to have been cast out was back in HIS time (John 12:31).

So we must not UNDO the work of Christ in this matter by a retroactive faith that places us back in time as if we are a people living PRIOR to Christ's victory over satan. What a travesty it is, IMHO, to see how the eschatological doctrine of futurism is always robbing Christ of his power and completed work.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Revelation chapter 20 does not happen to be one of those portions of scripture that presents itself in a symbolic format. That is an opinion that you have consistently imposed upon the text without anything from the text to support that interpretation.

You keep stating this but you refuse to deal with the reality of the text. That is why questions have to be repeated with Premils. They refuse to address the obvious.
  1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
  2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
  3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
  4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
  5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
  6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
  7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
  8. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
  9. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
  10. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
  11. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
  12. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?
 
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