Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

ISteveB · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
I think you misunderstood my question. Perhaps you should read the OP again.

Well, it seems pretty clear.
Your subsequent statements were pretty clear too.
Did you need to restate them?

I really have no idea what you mean. I would be taking a gamble if I accepted the existence of the Christian God on less than satisfactory evidence. Lacking evidence that God exists, I do not believe that He does.

That's the problem here....
In your ignorance, you think that you know better.
I was always taught that's a bad place to start.

bling · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
And that's the rub, isn't it? There are an awful lot of people who think, who really and truly believe, that they are right, and we know that they are wrong. so when you say you know that you are right, I trust that you are also keeping in mind that you may, in fact, be wrong.
Have you ever heard of Dan Barker? A well-known American preacher. Talked to God every day, and God talked back to Him. He experienced God's presence, he prayed to God and received answers to prayers, sometimes in the form of miracles, sometimes in the form of verbal answers. He is now one of the world's most famous atheists. He really, and truly believed that God exists. And he now realises that he was wrong.
So when you say you know God exists, just bear in mind. So did Dan Barker.

Lots of existing and former very religious “performers that preach”, turn to making money anyway they can.

Who was answering Dan Barker’s prays, who was doing these “miracles” he said he saw, and who was talking to Dan Backer if it was not God?

I have talked and corresponded with many people who said they were formerly “Christian”, but are now atheists or agnostics. Everyone I have talked with had false Christian ideas to begin with, that might drive many to become a nonbeliever.

There are former Atheists/agnostics that have become strong believers also, have you read CS Lewis

If you are not out “using”/growing your faith and Love, it will wither away.

I could be “wrong” about some of my “believes” at this time, which I have not had the time or need to fully explore, but Christianity as described in scripture is right on. There are lots of people calling themselves “Christians” who are not Christ like and people like yourself which I can learn from, but I depend on the Spirit to help and lead me.

I am not saying: “I cannot fall away”, but that would be my choice to do so.

InterestedAtheist said:
Let's start off first with getting to the point that we can establish if God does indeed exist. Once I do believe that God exists, I will then be in a position to decide what I think of His moral character.

Yes, that is where it windup with many agnostics/atheists, since they cannot “proof” God does not exist, they are left with trying to show God is immoral, which is a long discussion.

InterestedAtheist said:
Before we decide on that, I'm curious. What is this irrefutable proof of yours that has, in the past, convinced atheists that God exists?

First off: I never said I have “irrefutable proof”, that would be giving you “knowledge of God’s existence, while you need to trust/faith in God’s existence.

With the atheists I have talked with come wanting to fill a whole (objective/reason/purpose/overcoming the hurt) in their life which atheism does nothing to fill.

InterestedAtheist said:
And I've explained why neither of those is a satisfactory explanation.

It is not your answer, but my answer, so it only has to satisfy me. Starting with the premise: “There is no God” will have no satisfactory answer.
Can you make me dissatisfied with my answer, since I cannot satisfy you?

InterestedAtheist said:
Do you see why saying "Yes, miracles do happen, but only in backward parts of the world," is an extremely suspect statement?

That is not what I said, I said: “Miracles do happen”, but outwardly obvious miracles, like raising the dead, could only happen highly “spiritual” backward parts of the world. These miracles would be out of the reach of scientific “proof”.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

bling said:
Lots of existing and former very religious “performers that preach”, turn to making money anyway they can.

Lots of con-men turn to being a Christian preacher because it's a brilliant way of making money.
For Dan Barker, on the other hand, it was different. Right now he may be a reasonably famous and successful speaker and author, but when he became an atheist, things did not look good for him. He was already a widely respected preacher with a secure livelihood and a happy family. He threw both of these away, because he felt he could no longer keep on living the lie that he believed in God. He lost his job, his vocation and his marriage in order to live with integrity.

bling said:
Who was answering Dan Barker’s prays, who was doing these “miracles” he said he saw, and who was talking to Dan Backer if it was not God?

He was, himself. The prayers were just his counting the hits and ignoring the misses; and the God that was talking to him was just his imagination.

bling said:
I have talked and corresponded with many people who said they were formerly “Christian”, but are now atheists or agnostics. Everyone I have talked with had false Christian ideas to begin with, that might drive many to become a nonbeliever.

Who are you to say what is a false Christian idea? Presumably they would say the same thing about you. None of them were True Scotsmen, I imagine. You're familiar with the No True Scotsman fallacy?

bling said:
There are former Atheists/agnostics that have become strong believers also, have you read CS Lewis

Yes, and of course there are. But here's the interesting thing: none of the atheists who became Christians were able to give logical arguments or evidence for why they did so.

bling said:
If you are not out “using”/growing your faith and Love, it will wither away.

It was Dan Barker's using his mind to think that led to his faith falling away. As he says himself, he did not lose his faith. He outgrew it.

bling said:
I could be “wrong” about some of my “believes” at this time, which I have not had the time or need to fully explore, but Christianity as described in scripture is right on. There are lots of people calling themselves “Christians” who are not Christ like and people like yourself which I can learn from, but I depend on the Spirit to help and lead me.

Okay. Did you really have to tell me that?

bling said:
I am not saying: “I cannot fall away”, but that would be my choice to do so.

Would it really? If you ever realised that God was not real, would you be able to choose to continue believing in Him?

bling said:
Yes, that is where it windup with many agnostics/atheists, since they cannot “proof” God does not exist, they are left with trying to show God is immoral, which is a long discussion.

Fortunately, not one we have to deal with unless the Christians on this forum can prove that God exists.

bling said:
First off: I never said I have “irrefutable proof”, that would be giving you “knowledge of God’s existence, while you need to trust/faith in God’s existence.

See above for why faith is a cop out. If God actually exists, then He is a fact which is, at least in theory, capable of being demonstrated.
Not to mention that many, many, many Christians consider that they have arguments proving the existence of God.

bling said:
With the atheists I have talked with come wanting to fill a whole (objective/reason/purpose/overcoming the hurt) in their life which atheism does nothing to fill.

In other words, they convert for emotional needs, not rational reasons. While this is not surprising, admitting it harms rather than helps your case.

bling said:
It is not your answer, but my answer, so it only has to satisfy me. Starting with the premise: “There is no God” will have no satisfactory answer.
Can you make me dissatisfied with my answer, since I cannot satisfy you?

I don't start with the premise there is no God. Nor do I start with the premise that God exists. I start with the premise that I will follow the evidence to lead to the truth. Don't you?

bling said:
That is not what I said, I said: “Miracles do happen”, but outwardly obvious miracles, like raising the dead, could only happen highly “spiritual” backward parts of the world. These miracles would be out of the reach of scientific “proof”.

Saying that miracles could only happen in places where they cannot be examined is as much a concession of defeat as I can imagine. I congratulate you on your honesty.

Par5 · Oct 2, 2020

bling said:
As far as: “…if I believed that Allah was the true God, and that He wanted me to kill unbelievers…”. There are lots of miss led people out there: We can start with the apostle Paul, when he was Saul, killing innocent Loving Christians in the name of Judaism.

All I can say is: “I am right about this and they are wrong”, just as Paul/Saul went from wrong to right.

I have spent lots of time defending the truth to atheist to the point they intellectually agree with the alternative and even have said: “You could very will be right”, but that does not result in them being baptized. It is always left up to them trusting (faith) in a Benevolent Creator. Do you even have a need to trust in a Benevolent Creator? Some day they and/or you might have the need to trust and will remember our discussion.

I gave you my answer to: “Why Christians do not pray for the scientifically verifiable miracles”? (the need for faith and them working against the Master Plan of Evangelizing). I do want to say again: “I do believe miracles happen today” and will add some miracles can be growing a leg back or raising the dead, but these would be in remote third world groups of people, who all believe in lots of spirit activity.

Par5 · Oct 2, 2020

Bling, if you believe in a benevolent creator then I assume you believe the bible to be the word of that benevolent creator.
Matthew 18 verse 19 states. "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."
John 15 verse 7 states, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
Seems straightforward enough. Two believers agreeing on what to ask for shall have it granted. In John, you must be right with Jesus to have your request granted.
It would appear then that no two people, or anyone who was right with Jesus, has ever prayed for an end to war, hunger and poverty because we have all three and more in abundance.
I also wonder why Christians believe that by praying to their god that it would consider curing their child of an illness when 5,000 children die each and every day simply because they don't have clean drinking water.
Don't get me wrong Bling, I am not blaming the god you believe in for the problems of the world, I don't believe in deities. Those problems are all man-made, and it is up to all of us to work at solving those problems, but prayer is not the way to do it. No one has ever shown that prayer works.
A pair of open hands ready to do what is needed can do a lot more than a pair of hands clasped in prayer.

bling · Oct 2, 2020

you said nothing?

Par5 · Oct 2, 2020

bling said:
you said nothing?

No, it was simply a mix up in sending my post which can be read as post 165. I didn't think it would have been too difficult for you to realize that, but then...........?

bling · Oct 2, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Lots of con-men turn to being a Christian preacher because it's a brilliant way of making money.
For Dan Barker, on the other hand, it was different. Right now he may be a reasonably famous and successful speaker and author, but when he became an atheist, things did not look good for him. He was already a widely respected preacher with a secure livelihood and a happy family. He threw both of these away, because he felt he could no longer keep on living the lie that he believed in God. He lost his job, his vocation and his marriage in order to live with integrity.

He was, himself. The prayers were just his counting the hits and ignoring the misses; and the God that was talking to him was just his imagination.

In some ways I admire Mr. Barker because he is being honest and is not like most other preachers.

People have not really “changed” over the last 4000+ years (recorded history). You have read the Bible, so you know that maybe 80+% of the Jewish religious leaders of the God’s given true Jewish religion were hypocrites. And if you include all the pagan religious leaders at that time, they would know they were just placating the people with ideas the people wanted to believe, these priests knew they were lying, also.

The religious leaders during Jesus’ time said they would never have acted like their fathers before them who persecuted and murdered the prophets, but Jesus said they were no different.

Personally, I feel when Mr. Barker was preaching, he was part of the 80+% of preachers today who are hypocrites. He was honest enough to tell his true feelings, so he is better then the 80+%.

Again, I personally find very few true Christian preachers, doing what they preach, living like Christ. I do find some Christ like people in: Communist China, Iran, India, North Korea (do not here from them much anymore), Africa and Croatia.

Mr. Barker maybe a good representation of the “majority” of Western Christian preacher, but that is a poor representation of Christ.

InterestedAtheist said:
Yes, and of course there are. But here's the interesting thing: none of the atheists who became Christians were able to give logical arguments or evidence for why they did so.

You might read CS Lewis on that subject; he is pretty logical. It is a faith issue, but I and others have seen it taking more “faith/trust” to believe God does not exist than to believe God does exist.

InterestedAtheist said:
It was Dan Barker's using his mind to think that led to his faith falling away. As he says himself, he did not lose his faith. He outgrew it.

I would first say: he most likely had a poor foundation.

What does Mr. Barker have his faith in now?

InterestedAtheist said:
Would it really? If you ever realised that God was not real, would you be able to choose to continue believing in Him?

I really have a hard time imagining what it would take for me to “realize” God is not real. Since science tell us, they cannot “proof” God does not exist. If science cannot tell us and since the Bible tells us: any Spirit that came along telling you: “God is not real” do not believe. What could make me realize this false idea?

InterestedAtheist said:
In other words, they convert for emotional needs, not rational reasons. While this is not surprising, admitting it harms rather than helps your case.

I don't start with the premise there is no God. Nor do I start with the premise that God exists. I start with the premise that I will follow the evidence to lead to the truth. Don't you?

Saying that miracles could only happen in places where they cannot be examined is as much a concession of defeat as I can imagine. I congratulate you on your honesty.

I cannot start from the premise: “I do not know if God does or does not exist”, since I know He does exist from the fact I personally have the indwelling Holy Spirit actively living in me as a guarantee of not only God’s existence but God will keep His promises.

It all makes perfect logical sense to me, but I do understand man’s earthly objective. I am not trying to shoehorn what happens into some made up hypothesis of why it “might” happen, that way.

I have already explained why outward obvious miracles will not happen where it can be used as scientific “proof” for God’s existence.

The win or loss of our little “argument”, is filtered through the preconceived ideas of the audience, more than any rationality.

bling · Oct 2, 2020

Par5 said:
Bling, if you believe in a benevolent creator then I assume you believe the bible to be the word of that benevolent creator.
Matthew 18 verse 19 states. "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."
John 15 verse 7 states, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."
Seems straightforward enough. Two believers agreeing on what to ask for shall have it granted. In John, you must be right with Jesus to have your request granted.
It would appear then that no two people, or anyone who was right with Jesus, has ever prayed for an end to war, hunger and poverty because we have all three and more in abundance.
I also wonder why Christians believe that by praying to their god that it would consider curing their child of an illness when 5,000 children die each and every day simply because they don't have clean drinking water.
Don't get me wrong Bling, I am not blaming the god you believe in for the problems of the world, I don't believe in deities. Those problems are all man-made, and it is up to all of us to work at solving those problems, but prayer is not the way to do it. No one has ever shown that prayer works.
A pair of open hands ready to do what is needed can do a lot more than a pair of hands clasped in prayer.

If a person, including yourself at this time, is in a middle of a tragedy it is not the right time to be philosophical about tragedies, since Loving, serving, helping listening and spending time with the person is what’s needed.

Do not read further if this is the case and lets us work in Love on getting you through this tragedy.

Any pray a Christian makes it is understood if not said: “Not my will but your will be done”.

Sometimes our desires, unknown by us, will not help the kingdom to grow spiritually and in number, so we really do not want that pray to be fulfilled.

Paul prayed many times for his thorn in the flesh to be removed and it was not, because as Paul was later told, it was there to help him.

This messed up world (wars, famine, tragedies of all kind allow or even caused by God) is actually the very best place to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

We all look forward to being in heaven where there are no needy people, no sorrow, no death, and no sin.

This earth is not to be heaven, if we did not need this earth to be the way it is, we could all start out in heaven.

Is death bad in and of itself?

The same situation which strengths a person faith, will harden another person’s heart, so should God stop providing the message and/or the situation which will soften the accepting heart?

This world is full of tragedies, which can also be viewed as opportunities to help humans fulfill their earthly objective.

We have an earthly objective.

The story of Adam and Eve (Gen 3)(you do not have to believe it is true to get the message) is told very early, because all individuals ask the question: “Why would a truly Loving God not put us all in a Garden type situation?” The story of A&E explains why we are in our situation:

1. God desires is that we all be in a Garden type situation, but God quenches His own desire to provide a better situation for us to fulfill our earthly objective.

2. Our earthly object is not to “worship God”, “to never/ever sin”, run around free, just don’t sin, or be good. God does not need anything from us, but is just trying to give something to us. God is trying to give us the greatest power in all universes; the power that compels God to do all He does, but that power cannot be forced on us (take it or I torture you) or can it be instinctive to man (robotically programmed in humans). It is a gift from God that is totally undeserved and unconditional (so it is Charity), but man has to accept the gift as it was given. Humans, instinctive to survival, (which is good for man to have) does not help an individual to want to take charity especially if it comes at a huge cost to the giver.

3. The gift is Godly type Love which is best defined by Christ’s words and deeds. God will do all he can to help those that are willing to accept His help, fulfill their earthly objective of accepting His Love and growing that Love. Included in “all that God will do and allow to happen” are: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, sin, hell and tragedies of all kinds.

4. First off; death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff, so death is not “bad” in and of itself.

5. It is truly unfortunate and not God’s desire that tragedies have to occur. God has to quench His desire to allow tragedies, for man’s sake to help humans accept Love. People have to see, experience, witness, receive and even give Godly type Love, before they will even understand and desire such a Love. Some even after receiving Godly type Love from an individual just like themselves will not want it or explain it away (justifying in their own mind: the person is just trying to gain respect or earn their way to heaven or they are making up for the bad they have done).

6. Everyone on earth is needy, because everyone has hurt others (sinned) and should feel the burden of the sin at least for a while. Their creator is trying to give them Love in the form of forgiveness so they will Love (the Bible and life teach us: “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”) If we realize and except forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by our sins, we will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) that is truly ours.

7. There are a huge amount of sever tragedies in this world, but they are really opportunities for good people to show, give, experience, grow and witness Godly type Love. With all those tragedies some good people are still not responding, so are more needed? It is not our job to provide tragedies, but to solve, reduce, eliminate all we can, by allowing the Spirit to work through us.

8. Scripture tells us the needy will be with us always on this earth. Christ did not “heal” all those that were sick, but used those tragedies around Him to express Godly Love and show us how we are to handle tragedies (serve others with Love). Healing everyone without the witness of Godly type Love being seen in serving individual like any other person would not get other people to accept God’s Love in faith and humility, but we could grow from the experience.

9. This world is not our Home and our rest comes later. It is both a privilege and Honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in serving others in this world to best help everyone around us to accept God’s Love (fulfill their objective).

10. If you had to find the most Christ Like person in the world today, where would you look?

I see Jesus explaining it in John 9: 1-7.

In John 9: 1-7 you have a tragedy (the apostles are asking about a specific tragedy, but they do not know this individual and are thinking in general terms [you need to get into their head]).

Jesus does not say: “this tragedy was caused by: Adam/Eve sinning, Satan, sin, bad luck, God or evil in the world (those have been our answers).”

Jesus does not say: “It was because of the bad that happened”, but does say: “This is for the good that can (and in this case will) happen.”

If you have lived for very long, you have seen good come from some tragedies, but why not all tragedies?

Is someone keeping good from coming from every tragedy?

Everything that is happening in the world right now (disease, natural disasters, and tragedies of all kinds) are not the result of the bad that has happened (or Adam and Eve), but is the result of the GOOD that can happen!

God is quenching His desire to have us all in a Garden type situation to help us fulfill our objective.

Everything starts and ends with the objective;

The objective of humans is to: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others.” The definition of “Love” is key for it is not instinctive or just emotional but it is Love of your enemies, described by Jesus’ life and Paul in 1 Cor. 13 and by John. It requires a free will moral decision to Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season). The fall was tragic and not God’s desire, but may have been both inevitable and necessary. For all humans since the fall that have come to Love God started out by accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

Needy people create opportunities to experience, see, accept, express and receive Godly type Love. Everyone needs the full opportunity to accept Godly type Love which may have to be done when the person reaches the bottom like the prodigal son.

The innocent that died as the result of God’s action may not really suffer as far as we know.

There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit?

1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self-reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being perceived independent to being dependent on God.

2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.

3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.

4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.

Did Adam and Eve have faith? Did the Jews that crossed the Red Sea have faith? Is faith needed in heaven? Is our faith the determining factor to our salvation?

Par5 · Oct 2, 2020

bling said:
If a person, including yourself at this time, is in a middle of a tragedy it is not the right time to be philosophical about tragedies, since Loving, serving, helping listening and spending time with the person is what’s needed.

Do not read further if this is the case and lets us work in Love on getting you through this tragedy.

Any pray a Christian makes it is understood if not said: “Not my will but your will be done”.

Sometimes our desires, unknown by us, will not help the kingdom to grow spiritually and in number, so we really do not want that pray to be fulfilled.

Paul prayed many times for his thorn in the flesh to be removed and it was not, because as Paul was later told, it was there to help him.

This messed up world (wars, famine, tragedies of all kind allow or even caused by God) is actually the very best place to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

We all look forward to being in heaven where there are no needy people, no sorrow, no death, and no sin.

This earth is not to be heaven, if we did not need this earth to be the way it is, we could all start out in heaven.

Is death bad in and of itself?

The same situation which strengths a person faith, will harden another person’s heart, so should God stop providing the message and/or the situation which will soften the accepting heart?

This world is full of tragedies, which can also be viewed as opportunities to help humans fulfill their earthly objective.

We have an earthly objective.

The story of Adam and Eve (Gen 3)(you do not have to believe it is true to get the message) is told very early, because all individuals ask the question: “Why would a truly Loving God not put us all in a Garden type situation?” The story of A&E explains why we are in our situation:

1. God desires is that we all be in a Garden type situation, but God quenches His own desire to provide a better situation for us to fulfill our earthly objective.

2. Our earthly object is not to “worship God”, “to never/ever sin”, run around free, just don’t sin, or be good. God does not need anything from us, but is just trying to give something to us. God is trying to give us the greatest power in all universes; the power that compels God to do all He does, but that power cannot be forced on us (take it or I torture you) or can it be instinctive to man (robotically programmed in humans). It is a gift from God that is totally undeserved and unconditional (so it is Charity), but man has to accept the gift as it was given. Humans, instinctive to survival, (which is good for man to have) does not help an individual to want to take charity especially if it comes at a huge cost to the giver.

3. The gift is Godly type Love which is best defined by Christ’s words and deeds. God will do all he can to help those that are willing to accept His help, fulfill their earthly objective of accepting His Love and growing that Love. Included in “all that God will do and allow to happen” are: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, sin, hell and tragedies of all kinds.

4. First off; death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff, so death is not “bad” in and of itself.

5. It is truly unfortunate and not God’s desire that tragedies have to occur. God has to quench His desire to allow tragedies, for man’s sake to help humans accept Love. People have to see, experience, witness, receive and even give Godly type Love, before they will even understand and desire such a Love. Some even after receiving Godly type Love from an individual just like themselves will not want it or explain it away (justifying in their own mind: the person is just trying to gain respect or earn their way to heaven or they are making up for the bad they have done).

6. Everyone on earth is needy, because everyone has hurt others (sinned) and should feel the burden of the sin at least for a while. Their creator is trying to give them Love in the form of forgiveness so they will Love (the Bible and life teach us: “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”) If we realize and except forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt created by our sins, we will automatically receive an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) that is truly ours.

7. There are a huge amount of sever tragedies in this world, but they are really opportunities for good people to show, give, experience, grow and witness Godly type Love. With all those tragedies some good people are still not responding, so are more needed? It is not our job to provide tragedies, but to solve, reduce, eliminate all we can, by allowing the Spirit to work through us.

8. Scripture tells us the needy will be with us always on this earth. Christ did not “heal” all those that were sick, but used those tragedies around Him to express Godly Love and show us how we are to handle tragedies (serve others with Love). Healing everyone without the witness of Godly type Love being seen in serving individual like any other person would not get other people to accept God’s Love in faith and humility, but we could grow from the experience.

9. This world is not our Home and our rest comes later. It is both a privilege and Honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in serving others in this world to best help everyone around us to accept God’s Love (fulfill their objective).

10. If you had to find the most Christ Like person in the world today, where would you look?

I see Jesus explaining it in John 9: 1-7.

In John 9: 1-7 you have a tragedy (the apostles are asking about a specific tragedy, but they do not know this individual and are thinking in general terms [you need to get into their head]).

Jesus does not say: “this tragedy was caused by: Adam/Eve sinning, Satan, sin, bad luck, God or evil in the world (those have been our answers).”

Jesus does not say: “It was because of the bad that happened”, but does say: “This is for the good that can (and in this case will) happen.”

If you have lived for very long, you have seen good come from some tragedies, but why not all tragedies?

Is someone keeping good from coming from every tragedy?

Everything that is happening in the world right now (disease, natural disasters, and tragedies of all kinds) are not the result of the bad that has happened (or Adam and Eve), but is the result of the GOOD that can happen!

God is quenching His desire to have us all in a Garden type situation to help us fulfill our objective.

Everything starts and ends with the objective;

The objective of humans is to: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others.” The definition of “Love” is key for it is not instinctive or just emotional but it is Love of your enemies, described by Jesus’ life and Paul in 1 Cor. 13 and by John. It requires a free will moral decision to Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season). The fall was tragic and not God’s desire, but may have been both inevitable and necessary. For all humans since the fall that have come to Love God started out by accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

Needy people create opportunities to experience, see, accept, express and receive Godly type Love. Everyone needs the full opportunity to accept Godly type Love which may have to be done when the person reaches the bottom like the prodigal son.

The innocent that died as the result of God’s action may not really suffer as far as we know.

There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit?

1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self-reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being perceived independent to being dependent on God.

2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.

3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.

4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.

Did Adam and Eve have faith? Did the Jews that crossed the Red Sea have faith? Is faith needed in heaven? Is our faith the determining factor to our salvation?

That was quite a sermon Bling. A bit too, can't wait to die, for me though. I'm sure you will be glad to hear that I am not experiencing a personal tragedy at the moment.
You said that any prayer a Christian makes really means, only if it's god's will.
As Christians believe their god is omniscient, then what will be will be no matter what you ask for, so why bother? Surely you don't think you can influence the supreme commander to do something different. That would put a dent in his omniscience. Mind you, having said that, Abraham managed to get god to change his mind about killing everyone in Sodom and and Gomorrah so long as Abraham found ten righteous people, but that's another story. A good one too.

bling · Oct 2, 2020

God knew there were not ten righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham did not know that.

There are lots of things we can pray for, but mainly we need to be thankful for a ton of stuff. Prays are not just asking for stuff. We are told to pray for lots of stuff like: Godly Wisdom knowing it will be given to us, relieve from our anxiety over “things”, peace of mind while we are surrounded by conflicts, power over satan, to know what best to say, strength to help others, understanding and so on.

Unfortunately, we really cannot pray for all the opportunities before us to be taken away, since those opportunities provide ways for us to show, experience, extend, receive and grow Godly type Love. We do want to pray for the opportunity we are working on to have the greatest positive result for ourselves and others.

Pray helps the person who is correctly praying. If the person does not pray correctly for some “good” to happen, it might not happen since that opportunity was there to help the person who should have been praying. In the future that same person may pray of the same situation and it does happen.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 3, 2020

Excuse the length of this post!

bling said:
In some ways I admire Mr. Barker because he is being honest and is not like most other preachers.

That's nice. Thank you for your interest. I've been interested in him for many years, have enjoyed hearing his debates, and have read the book in which he talks about his journey to atheism. Since we're talking about him, I believe I can use materials from his book to give you something like the answers he himself would.

bling said:
People have not really “changed” over the last 4000+ years (recorded history). You have read the Bible, so you know that maybe 80+% of the Jewish religious leaders of the God’s given true Jewish religion were hypocrites. And if you include all the pagan religious leaders at that time, they would know they were just placating the people with ideas the people wanted to believe, these priests knew they were lying, also.

Hmmm. I'd like to point out that, as a bit of a historian, I don't know that most Jewish leaders were hypocrites because I read so in the Bible. What I know is that the Bible says they were. A historian should consider his sources.

bling said:
Personally, I feel when Mr. Barker was preaching, he was part of the 80+% of preachers today who are hypocrites. He was honest enough to tell his true feelings, so he is better then the 80+%.

That's good of you to say. But I think Dan Barker would say he was not a hypocrite. He genuinely believed, when he was a Christian, that he was doing the Lord's work. He says:
"Since I have become an atheist I often hear from believers who tell me that I could not possibly have been a true Christian or I would never have left Christianity. If I had truly known Jesus personally, like they do, then I would never have denied him. I must have been merely pretending to convince myself that God was real, they insist. Well, yes, I know exactly what they are saying. I used to preach that sermon. I preached it, believed it, knew it and felt it. If I did not have an authentic relationship with God, then why not? Why would God reveal himself to them, and not to me? I read the same bible, prayed with an open, humble spirit, and received inner confirmation of a “presence” witnessing to the truth of what I believed. If what I felt was phony, why would a good God allow me to be so deceived? (And how does anyone else know they are not being deceived as well?)
I had no doubts at all that what I experienced was authentic, not until near the end of my ministry. I sometimes ask these people, “Who are you to decide who is a true Christian?” Jesus said, “Ye shall know them by their fruits” and my life exhibited the “fruits of the spirit.” Paul wrote that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” I was not perfect—nobody is—but judging by the bible, no one else can make a stronger claim to being a Christian. I had been “born again” and believed it and announced it. I had been “filled with the spirit” and lived it. I had dedicated myself to a life of ministry. I was a “doer of the Word, not a hearer only.” I had lived by faith, putting my life, health and future on the line—how many “true believers” have done that? I prayed, spoke in tongues and “sang in the spirit.” I searched the scriptures for guidance. I knew that Jesus was my friend, lord and savior, and I had a daily inner dialogue with him, asking for help and praising him for his blessings. I had brought people to faith in Jesus and had seen many converts. I had heard countless testimonies of believers who told me they felt the “spirit of God” on my ministry (unless they were not true Christians either). There are people in the ministry today who credit me with helping to inspire them to preach and become ministers. I was invited and re-invited to minister in hundreds of Christian churches. How many “true Christians” can say they have done as much? The reason I rejected Christianity was not because I did not understand or experience it. It wasn’t because I despised God or hated the Christian life. I loved what I was doing and never imagined throwing it away.
If I was not a true Christian, then nobody is."
Barker, Dan. Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists (pp. 31-32).

bling said:
Again, I personally find very few true Christian preachers, doing what they preach, living like Christ. I do find some Christ like people in: Communist China, Iran, India, North Korea (do not here from them much anymore), Africa and Croatia.

and

bling said:
Mr. Barker maybe a good representation of the “majority” of Western Christian preacher, but that is a poor representation of Christ.

Dan Barker was such a one. I don't believe he went to North Korea, India or Iraq, but he did go to poor and dangerous locations, simply for the purpose of spreading Christ's love. He spent two years as a missionary in Mexico, for example.

bling said:
You might read CS Lewis on that subject; he is pretty logical. It is a faith issue, but I and others have seen it taking more “faith/trust” to believe God does not exist than to believe God does exist.

I have read C.S. Lewis, and while I am happy to accept that he was sincere, and I do believe he was a fine speaker and writer, I have not seen anything in his work that was not essentially present in other apologetics, or did not contain the same logical fallacies.

bling said:
I would first say: he most likely had a poor foundation.
What does Mr. Barker have his faith in now?

I believe his faith is now in the human capacity to do good, and that he is a humanist. And no, I would say he has a very good foundation of faith in Christ. He learned it, studied it, lived it, loved it and put his life on the line for his faith in Christ.

bling said:
I really have a hard time imagining what it would take for me to “realize” God is not real. Since science tell us, they cannot “proof” God does not exist. If science cannot tell us and since the Bible tells us: any Spirit that came along telling you: “God is not real” do not believe. What could make me realize this false idea?

This is not the place for a single reply.
But can I suggest you consider reading Dan Barker's book? Rather than dry logical arguments, the story of how another human followed a journey out of faith might be of interest to you.
At the very least, it could hardly harm you to know how an atheist actually thinks. Nothing personal, but many Christians don't seem to understand this.

bling said:
I cannot start from the premise: “I do not know if God does or does not exist”, since I know He does exist from the fact I personally have the indwelling Holy Spirit actively living in me as a guarantee of not only God’s existence but God will keep His promises.

Now, of course, it's ridiculous for me to say "I know that you are wrong," because I don't know any such thing.
But consider this. There are other people who know that God exists, and their experiences directly contradict with yours. And then, there's the story of Dan Barker, and many others like him, some of them on this forum, who believed just as much as you did - until they didn't.
So I would like to ask you: would you be willing to say: "I believe with all my heart that God exists, but I am ready to follow the evidence if it shows that I was mistaken. I am willing to admit if I am wrong."

bling said:
I have already explained why outward obvious miracles will not happen where it can be used as scientific “proof” for God’s existence.

The thing is, the explanation doesn't strike me as plausible. There must be many different circumstances in which an "impossible" miracle would not rob people of their chance to have faith, or cause terrible consequences in the world. And when it comes to the people who are praying to God, asking Him for help and believing that He does help them - well, I have a great deal of trouble believing that they would not go a little further and just pray to God for what they actually want. Except that they know, in their hearts, that God never answers impossible prayers.
And that goes against everything Christians believe about God. Which is why I believe the atheist's explanation makes sense. God never answers impossible prayers because He isn't there.

Seriously, don't Christians ever get curious about this? Don't they ever think, "I got an answer to my prayer, but how do I know it was God who sent it? How do I know it wasn't just happenstance? If God does actually answer prayers, then these "lucky incidents" should be happening much more in the lives of Christians than of people of other or no religions. I ought to do some kind of a study, collect and analyse data. What a great apologetic argument it would make if I could show, say, that Christians have a twenty-four per cent greater chance of recovering from sicknesses, or that Christians tend to find lost things much more easily than non-Christians."

The closest thing I have to such a study is a story I read some years ago, from a preacher in a hospital. He was there to comfort the sick and the dying. He prayed with people. He prayed for people. A man had lost his tongue, and the preacher lent him his. He was passionate, loving and loved.
But he noticed something, he said. When the doctors said patients had a one in ten chance of survival, about nine of them would die. When the doctors said a patient likely wasn't going to make it, they usually didn't. "Is all this prayer," he asked himself, "doing anything?"

And interesting question. Because the world is full of Christians who are asking for things, and are believing that these things show up. So why doesn't the data confirm this?

bling · Oct 5, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Hmmm. I'd like to point out that, as a bit of a historian, I don't know that most Jewish leaders were hypocrites because I read so in the Bible. What I know is that the Bible says they were. A historian should consider his sources.

Scripture does have exceptions prophets who went to the Jews, but they were the exceptions.

Matthew 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Luke 11:47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them.

The priests were not confronting the people to repent only these occasional prophets. The priests seem to be just telling the people what they wanted to hear, so they shared the blame.

Do you know of many Jewish leaders and especially Jewish religious leaders who were teaching repentance to the people?

InterestedAtheist said:
That's good of you to say. But I think Dan Barker would say he was not a hypocrite. He genuinely believed, when he was a Christian, that he was doing the Lord's work. He says:
"Since I have become an atheist I often hear from believers who tell me that I could not possibly have been a true Christian or I would never have left Christianity. If I had truly known Jesus personally, like they do, then I would never have denied him. I must have been merely pretending to convince myself that God was real, they insist. Well, yes, I know exactly what they are saying. I used to preach that sermon. I preached it, believed it, knew it and felt it. If I did not have an authentic relationship with God, then why not? Why would God reveal himself to them, and not to me? I read the same bible, prayed with an open, humble spirit, and received inner confirmation of a “presence” witnessing to the truth of what I believed. If what I felt was phony, why would a good God allow me to be so deceived? (And how does anyone else know they are not being deceived as well?)
I had no doubts at all that what I experienced was authentic, not until near the end of my ministry. I sometimes ask these people, “Who are you to decide who is a true Christian?” Jesus said, “Ye shall know them by their fruits” and my life exhibited the “fruits of the spirit.” Paul wrote that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” I was not perfect—nobody is—but judging by the bible, no one else can make a stronger claim to being a Christian. I had been “born again” and believed it and announced it. I had been “filled with the spirit” and lived it. I had dedicated myself to a life of ministry. I was a “doer of the Word, not a hearer only.” I had lived by faith, putting my life, health and future on the line—how many “true believers” have done that? I prayed, spoke in tongues and “sang in the spirit.” I searched the scriptures for guidance. I knew that Jesus was my friend, lord and savior, and I had a daily inner dialogue with him, asking for help and praising him for his blessings. I had brought people to faith in Jesus and had seen many converts. I had heard countless testimonies of believers who told me they felt the “spirit of God” on my ministry (unless they were not true Christians either). There are people in the ministry today who credit me with helping to inspire them to preach and become ministers. I was invited and re-invited to minister in hundreds of Christian churches. How many “true Christians” can say they have done as much? The reason I rejected Christianity was not because I did not understand or experience it. It wasn’t because I despised God or hated the Christian life. I loved what I was doing and never imagined throwing it away.
If I was not a true Christian, then nobody is."
Barker, Dan. Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists (pp. 31-32).

This is a silly statement by Mr. Barker: “If I was not a true Christian, then nobody is." And “he was a Christian”. To be a “Christian” you have got to have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so if the Spirit does not exist then no one is a Christian. Mr. Barker cannot now say both: “He was a Christian and the Holy Spirit does not exist”. He and others could have truly been Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit, but drove the Spirit out. A Christian’s birthright to heaven cannot be lost like you lose your set of keys, it cannot be stolen and even God will not take your birthright away, but like Esau you can give your birthright away. People like Mr. Barker pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for at least a season, losing their personal desire for unselfish type Love and thus are willing to give their “Love” and the Birthright included with the Love, away.

I do not have to read Mr. Barker’s book, since I personally know Christians who have done the same thing. They have not tried to make money off of their turning to the dark side, but divorce, change friends, hurt others, and go on their selfish way.

InterestedAtheist said:
Dan Barker was such a one. I don't believe he went to North Korea, India or Iraq, but he did go to poor and dangerous locations, simply for the purpose of spreading Christ's love. He spent two years as a missionary in Mexico, for example.

InterestedAtheist said:
This is not the place for a single reply.
But can I suggest you consider reading Dan Barker's book? Rather than dry logical arguments, the story of how another human followed a journey out of faith might be of interest to you.
At the very least, it could hardly harm you to know how an atheist actually thinks. Nothing personal, but many Christians don't seem to understand this.

Again, I have personally known some “strong” Christians who left to do their selfish thing.

InterestedAtheist said:
Now, of course, it's ridiculous for me to say "I know that you are wrong," because I don't know any such thing.
But consider this. There are other people who know that God exists, and their experiences directly contradict with yours. And then, there's the story of Dan Barker, and many others like him, some of them on this forum, who believed just as much as you did - until they didn't.
So I would like to ask you: would you be willing to say: "I believe with all my heart that God exists, but I am ready to follow the evidence if it shows that I was mistaken. I am willing to admit if I am wrong."

I have changed, my believes many times, like not knowing the Spirit really dwells within me, to knowing He does and others.

Like you wanting scientific verifiable proof of God’s existence, I would need verifiable scientific proof God does not exist, which any scientist will tell you: “Science could never provide that information.” Science just does not address anything in the spiritual realm.

Since science cannot help, what evidence could convince me that God does not exist?

InterestedAtheist said:
The thing is, the explanation doesn't strike me as plausible. There must be many different circumstances in which an "impossible" miracle would not rob people of their chance to have faith, or cause terrible consequences in the world. And when it comes to the people who are praying to God, asking Him for help and believing that He does help them - well, I have a great deal of trouble believing that they would not go a little further and just pray to God for what they actually want. Except that they know, in their hearts, that God never answers impossible prayers.
And that goes against everything Christians believe about God. Which is why I believe the atheist's explanation makes sense. God never answers impossible prayers because He isn't there.

Seriously, don't Christians ever get curious about this? Don't they ever think, "I got an answer to my prayer, but how do I know it was God who sent it? How do I know it wasn't just happenstance? If God does actually answer prayers, then these "lucky incidents" should be happening much more in the lives of Christians than of people of other or no religions. I ought to do some kind of a study, collect and analyse data. What a great apologetic argument it would make if I could show, say, that Christians have a twenty-four per cent greater chance of recovering from sicknesses, or that Christians tend to find lost things much more easily than non-Christians."

The closest thing I have to such a study is a story I read some years ago, from a preacher in a hospital. He was there to comfort the sick and the dying. He prayed with people. He prayed for people. A man had lost his tongue, and the preacher lent him his. He was passionate, loving and loved.
But he noticed something, he said. When the doctors said patients had a one in ten chance of survival, about nine of them would die. When the doctors said a patient likely wasn't going to make it, they usually didn't. "Is all this prayer," he asked himself, "doing anything?"

And interesting question. Because the world is full of Christians who are asking for things, and are believing that these things show up. So why doesn't the data confirm this?

The first thing you have got to remember is: True Christians want what is best for the Kingdom to grow in Love, spiritually and in numbers. Yes, having their prays answered for the right things does help them, but not having their prays answered for their personal desires (not realizing the harm it might do) also should help them.

God does answer impossible prays, but they cannot be shown scientifically to be impossible by natural means.

If the person is in need of “faith”, God would provide the easiest possible way to just extend the little faith needed, but that does not mean there are not more difficult ways to extend their faith.

A person throughout history just had to look around and ask themselves: “How could this all have happened”. The answer can be “accidental” or “a god did it”, but what are the chance of it being accidental and what are the chances of it coming about, because intelligence created it?

If it is natural, then science should be able to show how it at least could have happened.

Why do Christians get sick in the first place and why do Christians die?

If Christians did not get sick or die before 120 years, would that encourage people to become Christian (for all the wrong reasons)?

cvanwey · Oct 5, 2020

bling said:
Pray helps the person who is correctly praying. If the person does not pray correctly for some “good” to happen, it might not happen since that opportunity was there to help the person who should have been praying. In the future that same person may pray of the same situation and it does happen.

Regardless of how one prays, it looks as though God perpetually ignores or declines the request to restore/regenerate any/all individuals with missing limbs, remove cerebral palsy, and/or remove Downs syndrome.

Or as @Par5 also suggested, groups whom pray together to save innocent children from starving to death, which also go perpetually declined.

And as @Moral Orel also suggested; Christianity is about an appeal to emotion. Many accept whatever makes one feel good, and often times rather ignore or rationalize the stuff which does not. You clearly look to be doing this here...

All I see in your response(s), in the thread, is cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics. Sorry.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 6, 2020

Thank you, Bling. I have to say, I found your post most interesting and thought-provoking.

bling said:
Scripture does have exceptions prophets who went to the Jews, but they were the exceptions.

Matthew 23:34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

Luke 11:47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them.

The priests were not confronting the people to repent only these occasional prophets. The priests seem to be just telling the people what they wanted to hear, so they shared the blame.

The point I'm making is that we cannot simply take the Bible's word for this. Treating it as a historical source, we must consider that it may be telling the truth, or the partial truth, or not telling the truth at all. Just because the Bible says a thing happened, that does not mean it necessarily did.

bling said:
Do you know of many Jewish leaders and especially Jewish religious leaders who were teaching repentance to the people?

Most of our knowledge from this time is from the Bible; so, no.

bling said:
This is a silly statement by Mr. Barker: “If I was not a true Christian, then nobody is." And “he was a Christian”.

I find your idea here very interesting. And I mean that sincerely - it's a very interesting question to tackle. Let's think about it.

bling said:
To be a “Christian” you have got to have the indwelling Holy Spirit, so if the Spirit does not exist then no one is a Christian. Mr. Barker cannot now say both: “He was a Christian and the Holy Spirit does not exist”.

Ah, but what does Dan Barker believe a Christian is now? He believes, well, what the dictionary believes: that a Christian is a person who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. He did both of those. Therefore, it is no contradiction for him to say that he was a Christian, and now is not.
You are, I think, committing a logical fallacy known "begging the question." You are assuming your answer before it has been proven. Yes, if a Christian has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and can never become a non-Christian, then Dan Barker was never a Christian. But you have not proved that such a thing as the Holy Spirit exists yet, and so cannot make that claim in an argument.
Finally, I don't follow your logic. Why would you think that a person who is a true believer and has the Holy Spirit indwelling them would never be able to abandon Christianity? What about free will, madness, the temptations of Satan, etc.? You may believe they are wrong to abandon Christianity, but you cannot say that they were never Christians in the first place simply because they did so.

bling said:
I do not have to read Mr. Barker’s book, since I personally know Christians who have done the same thing. They have not tried to make money off of their turning to the dark side, but divorce, change friends, hurt others, and go on their selfish way.

You don't have to read the book, of course; I personally dislike it when people on a debating forum say "If you want to know the answer, read this book." If you're debating, you have to make the arguments yourself, even if you quote to support them. I just thought you might like to read the book though, because it seems it has a story you have not heard. According to what he said (and I have no reason to think he lied) Dan Barker found his transition from passionate Christian to full-blown atheist to be terribly emotionally painful, and not rewarding in the slightest. Far from it, he was swapping a stable career with a loving family for an uncertain and unsecure future in which he might love everyone he loved (and almost did, in fact). He didn't "turn to the dark side" for money, fame or love. He became an atheist because he really and sincerely believed he had to follow the truth.

bling said:
I have changed, my believes many times, like not knowing the Spirit really dwells within me, to knowing He does and others.

But there's a difference between changing your beliefs because you find something you were simply ignorant of before, and changing your beliefs because something you thought was true - passionately, fervently believed was true - turned out to be wrong.
I repeat: are you willing to say that you believe that Christianity is true, but acknowledge that it is possible that you may be wrong?

bling said:
Like you wanting scientific verifiable proof of God’s existence, I would need verifiable scientific proof God does not exist, which any scientist will tell you: “Science could never provide that information.” Science just does not address anything in the spiritual realm.

Most of the atheists I have heard of or from have said that they did once believe, but they ceased to believe - not because something showed them they were wrong, but because they reviewed their thinking and realised that their decision to become a Christian had been a mistake in the first place.

bling said:
Since science cannot help, what evidence could convince me that God does not exist?

Looking back honestly and fearlessly at the reasons that caused you to become a Christian, and evaluating them to see if they are still sound. That could cause you to become an atheist.

bling said:
The first thing you have got to remember is: True Christians want what is best for the Kingdom to grow in Love, spiritually and in numbers. Yes, having their prays answered for the right things does help them, but not having their prays answered for their personal desires (not realizing the harm it might do) also should help them.

I just wonder how many Christians you have met! Clearly, not the ones on the Christians Forums Prayer Wall.
I am sure they would agree with you wholeheartedly with saying they want what is best for the Kingdom to grow in Love, spiritually and in numbers, and would then say that since God is a loving Father, they see absolutely nothing wrong with asking Him for aid. And to be honest, neither do I.

bling said:
God does answer impossible prays, but they cannot be shown scientifically to be impossible by natural means.

I have never seen a credibly verified report that God did answer a prayer with a miracle. Or any prayer, ever, come to that.
Yes, I see what you mean and agree with it. If a Christian prayed to God to restore an amputated limb and the limb shone with light and was restored, that would not be proof positive that it was from God.
But - come on. If I saw that, I would become a Christian.

bling said:
A person throughout history just had to look around and ask themselves: “How could this all have happened”. The answer can be “accidental” or “a god did it”, but what are the chance of it being accidental and what are the chances of it coming about, because intelligence created it?

Truthfully, that is what most people throughout history have done; and in response, they have come up with over three thousand different gods and goddesses.
An atheist answers the question rather differently: "I do not know how or why the universe began and, lacking the answer, am not going to make one up."
Why do you say "a god did it?" Why not a fairy godmother? Why not a time machine? Why not the flying spaghetti monster? Maybe coming into existence is what universes naturally do. Who knows? I certainly don't.

bling said:
If Christians did not get sick or die before 120 years, would that encourage people to become Christian (for all the wrong reasons)?

Yes, that would serve as very good evidence. And wrong reasons? There are no wrong reasons for understanding the truth, if they lead to actual understanding.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I am not seeking God. I am seeking to know the truth. If your particular god, out of hundreds of religions, happens to be true, I would like to know that.

bling · Oct 6, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Thank you, Bling. I have to say, I found your post most interesting and thought-provoking.

The point I'm making is that we cannot simply take the Bible's word for this. Treating it as a historical source, we must consider that it may be telling the truth, or the partial truth, or not telling the truth at all. Just because the Bible says a thing happened, that does not mean it necessarily did.

I am not trying to “sell” you on the Bible. It is more a tool for the Christian then book that converts the atheist. Going back 2000+ years in Jewish history leaves us with few sources. What better source is there for the Jewish spiritual leadership being strong or poor then scripture?

The Bible’s description of the religious leadership among God’s people in the first century also describes what I am seeing among “Christian” religious leaders today in the same percentage.

InterestedAtheist said:
I find your idea here very interesting. And I mean that sincerely - it's a very interesting question to tackle. Let's think about it.

Ah, but what does Dan Barker believe a Christian is now? He believes, well, what the dictionary believes: that a Christian is a person who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. He did both of those. Therefore, it is no contradiction for him to say that he was a Christian, and now is not.
You are, I think, committing a logical fallacy known "begging the question." You are assuming your answer before it has been proven. Yes, if a Christian has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and can never become a non-Christian, then Dan Barker was never a Christian. But you have not proved that such a thing as the Holy Spirit exists yet, and so cannot make that claim in an argument.
Finally, I don't follow your logic. Why would you think that a person who is a true believer and has the Holy Spirit indwelling them would never be able to abandon Christianity? What about free will, madness, the temptations of Satan, etc.? You may believe they are wrong to abandon Christianity, but you cannot say that they were never Christians in the first place simply because they did so.

Where are you getting from my writing the idea: “…would never be able to abandon Christianity”, I did not say that and do not teach that, so did you read what I said? I quote what I said: “…He and others could have truly been Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit, but drove the Spirit out. A Christian’s birthright to heaven cannot be lost like you lose your set of keys, it cannot be stolen and even God will not take your birthright away, but like Esau you can give your birthright away. People like Mr. Barker pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for at least a season, losing their personal desire for unselfish type Love and thus are willing to give their “Love” and the Birthright included with the Love, away.”

I use the Bible to define “Christian” and not the dictionary and Mr. Barker would have done the same back when He believed, but would have to redefine the word to call himself a Christian. I am not saying he was not Christian back then by the Bible’s definition.

I do not have to “proof” the existence of the Holy Spirit to support my argument, but just proof the definition of Christian includes the Holy Spirit.

Ro. 8: 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

Mr. Barker is the one who is saying: “I was a Christian” and now believes he was a Christian without the indwelling Holy Spirit, which goes against the Bible’s definition of a Christian?

InterestedAtheist said:
You don't have to read the book, of course; I personally dislike it when people on a debating forum say "If you want to know the answer, read this book." If you're debating, you have to make the arguments yourself, even if you quote to support them. I just thought you might like to read the book though, because it seems it has a story you have not heard. According to what he said (and I have no reason to think he lied) Dan Barker found his transition from passionate Christian to full-blown atheist to be terribly emotionally painful, and not rewarding in the slightest. Far from it, he was swapping a stable career with a loving family for an uncertain and unsecure future in which he might love everyone he loved (and almost did, in fact). He didn't "turn to the dark side" for money, fame or love. He became an atheist because he really and sincerely believed he had to follow the truth.

Even if I read the book, I would not really know him. I mostly avoid reading religious books other than the Bible, because I always have questions that when I email the author remain unanswered. Most books are written for sales.

OK, maybe Mr. Barker is different and is being sincere, it is extremely hard to know the real motive.

Mr. Barker did not seem to have the relationship with the Spirit I experience.

InterestedAtheist said:
But there's a difference between changing your beliefs because you find something you were simply ignorant of before, and changing your beliefs because something you thought was true - passionately, fervently believed was true - turned out to be wrong.
I repeat: are you willing to say that you believe that Christianity is true, but acknowledge that it is possible that you may be wrong?

Mormons have come to my house wanting me to read the Book of Mormon like I read the Bible to see if it was true and I did not see that as even being possible for me. I have doubts about myself but not Christianity. I know I have done things I would say: “I will never do”, so I need God’s help all the time.

There are lots of things I could be wrong about, but to “doubt” Christianity itself requires another likely alternative, so what “likely alternative” could there be and where could it come from?

InterestedAtheist said:
Most of the atheists I have heard of or from have said that they did once believe, but they ceased to believe - not because something showed them they were wrong, but because they reviewed their thinking and realised that their decision to become a Christian had been a mistake in the first place.

I agree with that statement. How did they even decide to become a Christian?

InterestedAtheist said:
Looking back honestly and fearlessly at the reasons that caused you to become a Christian, and evaluating them to see if they are still sound. That could cause you to become an atheist.

That might work for a lot of people who called themselves “Christians”, but if you continue to grow then it is not going back to just one incident, but tons of choices along the way.

InterestedAtheist said:
I just wonder how many Christians you have met! Clearly, not the ones on the Christians Forums Prayer Wall.
I am sure they would agree with you wholeheartedly with saying they want what is best for the Kingdom to grow in Love, spiritually and in numbers, and would then say that since God is a loving Father, they see absolutely nothing wrong with asking Him for aid. And to be honest, neither do I.

I am involved with the unregistered church in Communist China, it has very little money, some house churches do not even take up a collection, the highest position is unpaid house church leader, they have only bibles and no other religious books, they are off and on under severe persecution, yet they have and are growing rapidly.

What “aid” are you talking about since: persecution, poverty, hardship, and tragedies might be the very best thing for the Kingdom?

InterestedAtheist said:
I have never seen a credibly verified report that God did answer a prayer with a miracle. Or any prayer, ever, come to that.
Yes, I see what you mean and agree with it. If a Christian prayed to God to restore an amputated limb and the limb shone with light and was restored, that would not be proof positive that it was from God.
But - come on. If I saw that, I would become a Christian.

Wait, what is your definition of being “Christ like”? What changes would you make in your life? Would you immediately run around telling all your family, friends, neighbors and anyone you saw: “Jesus is Lord!!!”?

InterestedAtheist said:
Truthfully, that is what most people throughout history have done; and in response, they have come up with over three thousand different gods and goddesses.
An atheist answers the question rather differently: "I do not know how or why the universe began and, lacking the answer, am not going to make one up."
Why do you say "a god did it?" Why not a fairy godmother? Why not a time machine? Why not the flying spaghetti monster? Maybe coming into existence is what universes naturally do. Who knows? I certainly don't.

As you say: “Will you let the evidence lead you”, since your answer seems to be, “I will ignore and not explore the possibilities”, but is that not what you are asking me to do?

InterestedAtheist said:
Yes, that would serve as very good evidence. And wrong reasons? There are no wrong reasons for understanding the truth, if they lead to actual understanding.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I am not seeking God. I am seeking to know the truth. If your particular god, out of hundreds of religions, happens to be true, I would like to know that.

I am not talking about understanding the evidence wrongly, but the wrong reason for trying to become a Christian, which will not work.

You want to know the truth about the Christian God, but God is not needing you to acknowledge His existence or try to join the church while not Loving Him unconditionally, unselfishly, and sacrificially, the way He Loves you.

Loving the Creator of the Universe, takes precedence over even knowing the Christian God exists.

Prior to Christ, under the Jewish Law, the Jews could and many did have knowledge of God’s existence and they were given laws to follow to “earn/deserve” salvation, which were way to hard to do, because in a way they were earning or deserving salvation by following the rules perfectly. The only way to obtain salvation then and now is to humbly trust (faith) in God’s Love to the point you feel He could forgive you of an unbelievable huge debt created by your sin.

If you do not like to be Loved unconditionally (really prefer to be “loved” for the way you want others to perceive you to be) and do not want to Love totally unselfishly (Love people really hard to Love), then it is best for you to not know the truth about God and get the most out of this life as you can.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 6, 2020

bling said:
I am not trying to “sell” you on the Bible. It is more a tool for the Christian then book that converts the atheist. Going back 2000+ years in Jewish history leaves us with few sources. What better source is there for the Jewish spiritual leadership being strong or poor then scripture?

The Bible’s description of the religious leadership among God’s people in the first century also describes what I am seeing among “Christian” religious leaders today in the same percentage.

Where are you getting from my writing the idea: “…would never be able to abandon Christianity”, I did not say that and do not teach that, so did you read what I said? I quote what I said: “…He and others could have truly been Christian with the indwelling Holy Spirit, but drove the Spirit out. A Christian’s birthright to heaven cannot be lost like you lose your set of keys, it cannot be stolen and even God will not take your birthright away, but like Esau you can give your birthright away. People like Mr. Barker pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for at least a season, losing their personal desire for unselfish type Love and thus are willing to give their “Love” and the Birthright included with the Love, away.”

I use the Bible to define “Christian” and not the dictionary and Mr. Barker would have done the same back when He believed, but would have to redefine the word to call himself a Christian. I am not saying he was not Christian back then by the Bible’s definition.

I do not have to “proof” the existence of the Holy Spirit to support my argument, but just proof the definition of Christian includes the Holy Spirit.

Ro. 8: 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

Mr. Barker is the one who is saying: “I was a Christian” and now believes he was a Christian without the indwelling Holy Spirit, which goes against the Bible’s definition of a Christian?

Even if I read the book, I would not really know him. I mostly avoid reading religious books other than the Bible, because I always have questions that when I email the author remain unanswered. Most books are written for sales.

OK, maybe Mr. Barker is different and is being sincere, it is extremely hard to know the real motive.

Mr. Barker did not seem to have the relationship with the Spirit I experience.

Mormons have come to my house wanting me to read the Book of Mormon like I read the Bible to see if it was true and I did not see that as even being possible for me. I have doubts about myself but not Christianity. I know I have done things I would say: “I will never do”, so I need God’s help all the time.

There are lots of things I could be wrong about, but to “doubt” Christianity itself requires another likely alternative, so what “likely alternative” could there be and where could it come from?

I agree with that statement. How did they even decide to become a Christian?

That might work for a lot of people who called themselves “Christians”, but if you continue to grow then it is not going back to just one incident, but tons of choices along the way.

I am involved with the unregistered church in Communist China, it has very little money, some house churches do not even take up a collection, the highest position is unpaid house church leader, they have only bibles and no other religious books, they are off and on under severe persecution, yet they have and are growing rapidly.

What “aid” are you talking about since: persecution, poverty, hardship, and tragedies might be the very best thing for the Kingdom?

Wait, what is your definition of being “Christ like”? What changes would you make in your life? Would you immediately run around telling all your family, friends, neighbors and anyone you saw: “Jesus is Lord!!!”?

As you say: “Will you let the evidence lead you”, since your answer seems to be, “I will ignore and not explore the possibilities”, but is that not what you are asking me to do?

I am not talking about understanding the evidence wrongly, but the wrong reason for trying to become a Christian, which will not work.

You want to know the truth about the Christian God, but God is not needing you to acknowledge His existence or try to join the church while not Loving Him unconditionally, unselfishly, and sacrificially, the way He Loves you.

Loving the Creator of the Universe, takes precedence over even knowing the Christian God exists.

Prior to Christ, under the Jewish Law, the Jews could and many did have knowledge of God’s existence and they were given laws to follow to “earn/deserve” salvation, which were way to hard to do, because in a way they were earning or deserving salvation by following the rules perfectly. The only way to obtain salvation then and now is to humbly trust (faith) in God’s Love to the point you feel He could forgive you of an unbelievable huge debt created by your sin.

If you do not like to be Loved unconditionally (really prefer to be “loved” for the way you want others to perceive you to be) and do not want to Love totally unselfishly (Love people really hard to Love), then it is best for you to not know the truth about God and get the most out of this life as you can.

I'm afraid, Bling, that while I have enjoyed our conversation and found it useful, it seems to be becoming personal. You seem to be getting annoyed at some of the things I'm saying. Perhaps it's best if we leave things here.

cvanwey · Oct 7, 2020

@ISteveB

Can you please respond to post #157? You look to have missed another one of my responses? You are making assertion(s) for which I currently disagree.

Thanks

cvanwey · Oct 7, 2020

@bling

Are you planning on addressing post #174?

bling · Oct 7, 2020

cvanwey said:
@bling

Are you planning on addressing post #174?

You need to be specific, I am not reading everyone's comments.

Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

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