Temporal Salvation?

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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Uh, where do you get the idea that John 6 taught "salvation by election"?
I get that "idea" from the Words of Christ.
No you don't. But I understand that you like to think you do.

I actually BELIEVE that Christ did not lie when He said:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Why don't you just read the very next verse, which tells you plainly who comes to Jesus?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Yep. Eternal security.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


.
Again, eternal security.
 
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5thKingdom

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FreeGrace2 said:

Since you don't want to see and understand that every person faces the choice of whether to believe the gospel or not, further explanation seems futile.


I am sorry... WHERE does this verse say believing is a "choice"?


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.


And WHERE does this verse say "believing" is a "choice"


but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.



Jim
 
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FreeGrace2

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I am sorry... we must be reading different Bibles because my Bible says they cannot believe because they ARE NOT THE SHEEP of Jesus.
No, you are READING differently than what is said. I will point out again that v.26 doesn't say they "cannot believe". It says they "don't believe".

Do I have to explain the difference between "cannot" and "don't"?

Does your Bible not say that also?
Or do you intentionally ignore that part?
I just told you what the Bible says. Why do you intentionally ignore that? Instead, you just keep making stuff up.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.
"believe not" doesn't mean "can't", so why do you perpetuate that fallacy?

And HERE is the other side of that coin...
Does your Bible include this?

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall
never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Right. Eternal security.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I am sorry... WHERE does this verse say believing is a "choice"?

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you.

And WHERE does this verse say "believing" is a "choice"

but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.Jim
All believing is a choice. You are given facts and you choose whether or not to believe them. Or believe your fantasies.
 
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5thKingdom

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FreeGrace2 said:
Why don't you just read the very next verse, which tells you plainly who comes to Jesus?

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


OK, I see, you believe that ALL MEN are taught of God and
ALL MEN come to Christ.

And since Christ loses NONE that come to Him...
then Hell is empty.

Jim
 
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Marc Perry

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Correction:
It is not MY CLAIM that some were NEVER MEANT to believe...
that is what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The words "LEST AT ANY TIME" are the Words of Christ (not me)
Your argument is with Jesus (not with me).

Closing your eyes does not make the Words of Christ disappear.

Jim

That post wasn't meant for you, either. It was meant for the JR something. This is a really long thread and I just joined in, so I don't know what your position is.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Why don't you just read the very next verse, which tells you plainly who comes to Jesus?
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

OK, I see, you believe that ALL MEN are taught of God and
ALL MEN come to Christ.
Not hardly. Do you really believe that everyone in a classroom pays attention and learns? I'm sure you've been through some schooling.

Rom 1:19,20 prove that everyone has been taught that God exists. But not everyone believes that He does. iow, they reject the teaching that God Himself provided.

And so, such people are "without excuse".

And since Christ loses NONE that come to Him...
then Hell is empty.
Jim
You have a really odd way of messing up clear verses.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"All believing is a choice. You are given facts and you choose whether or not to believe them. Or believe your fantasies."
That is NOT what the text says... you have ADDED that.
Are you allowed to ADD to the text?
Jim
Are you disagreeing with the FACT that all believing is a choice? I didn't say it was in the text. Some things are just too obvious to have to say.

But maybe you don't choose to believe that either.
 
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BNR32FAN

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To argue that men are not saved because they "chose"
to not believe/repent is saying that MAN DECIDES who is saved,
the Bible says GOD DECIDES who is saved.


What makes you think man can "believe" or "repent"
BEFORE regeneration?


Is "faith" a GIFT of God (given to who GOD DECIDES)
or is "faith" something men generate?


Jim
.

.

You completely missed the point about Mark 4:11. He who has ears to hear let him hear.
 
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WordSword

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There is actually quite a lot of legitimate concerns over the translations of "eternal" in the new testament (and the word used for "damnation", but I won't get into that here). Other Greek texts from this era seem to use the word to mean something like "a state of being lasting a really long time, but not necessarily forever". It's where we get the word 'aeon' from, although it's lost it's connection to a state of being in that word. There was actually a Greek word that meant "endless", but that wasn't used in the passages we're concerned with, and the question is "why not?". About salvation, a more explicit word is used in the phrase "his kingdom shall have no end".

I'm not sure what to believe about it, but I have a hard time seeing why a loving God would create someone with full knowledge that they will be tortured forever.
Hi and thanks for your interesting input! I would think most believers have thought about the "why" concerning eternal punishment, but this and all other "whys" have their place in teaching us not to wonder in doubt, but to reach for understanding, which isn't of course always received concerning all of God's ways.

I see it that all are doing God's will but not His desire. Though it's not His desire, it is His will that the unbelieving perish; and to add to the difficulty, He knew it will involve the majority of mankind (Mat 7:13, 14). God give us to know patience and trust when waiting on Him for everything!

God's blessings to your Family!
 
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Marc Perry

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Hi and thanks for your interesting input! I would think most believers have thought about the "why" concerning eternal punishment, but this and all other "whys" have their place in teaching us not to wonder in doubt, but to reach for understanding, which isn't of course always received concerning all of God's ways.

I see it that all are doing God's will but not His desire. Though it's not His desire, it is His will that the unbelieving perish; and to add to the difficulty, He knew it will involve the majority of mankind (Mat 7:13, 14). God give us to know patience and trust when waiting on Him for everything!

God's blessings to your Family!

Good to meet you! So my whole thing is that I think I know nothing, and I have a hard time believing anyone else does, either. But that's fine with me, because my faith is not based on achieving an understanding of the mind of God, but on having faith that he loves us and knows what's best. I pray, and I read the bible, and try my best to follow Jesus' teachings. I believe that is the only thing that matters.

As a result I tend to play advocate to the side I think is underrepresented. Not because I agree with them, but because I think everyone deserves to have their concerns heard as long as they aren't passing blind judgements.

But back to the topic at hand. There was a whole thread here a couple years ago talking about that scripture you mentioned and whether or not it refuted Universalism (which is the type of argument I was making).

Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all

I haven't read through it, but I suggest you start there as I imagine there are some Universalists on this forum who would jump on that topic, and they tend to be well versed. If that doesn't give you an idea of how they respond to that scripture, or if you don't feel like reading through it, let be know and I'll give you the abbreviated version.

In addition to the Universalist opinion, where everyone is saved, there were also a lot of people who lived for a couple hundred years after Christ that believed damned souls would go to hell and be tortured, but eventually God would take mercy on them by poofing them out of existence. They ended up being squashed pretty hard politically when Rome and Constantinople started casting more mandates and had the power of the Empires to back them up, which is why I don't think you see them much anymore.
 
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5thKingdom

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No, you are READING differently than what is said. I will point out again that v.26 doesn't say they "cannot believe". It says they "don't believe".
Do I have to explain the difference between "cannot" and "don't"?


Ok, I will go through this S-L-O-W-L-Y with you so you can
understand. (1) You are correct, if says they "don't believe".
(2) Then Jesus explains WHY they don't believe and He says
"you are NOT MY SHEEP. (3) the next verse Jesus elaborates
and says HIS SHEEP do believe.


I just told you what the Bible says. Why do you intentionally ignore that? Instead, you just keep making stuff up.


No, I did not intentionally ignore you... I read the rest of the
CONTEXT where Jesus explained WHY they did not believe
while you pretended it was their choice/refusal to believe.
NO MAN can believe unless they are GIVEN that believe
and ALL MEN who are "His sheep" follow Him.


Are you willing to say that ANY of "His sheep" do not believe?
Because that is the ONLY WAY to defend your argument...
and I bet that is just toooo heretical for you to admit.


The PROBLEM is very simple.
You believe in a synergistic gospel where MEN DECIDE
I believe the Biblical Gospel where a Sovereign GOD DECIDES.


It is really as simple as that.
Now... only ONE of those can be the True Gospel (of the Bible)
and the other one must be a HERESY. (a "works" gospel)
And Galatians 5:20-21 PROMISES heretics do not enter
into the "Kingdom of God".


So this is no small matter.
The BROAD WAY that many "Christians" follow or
the narrow way that few Christians find.


One is True... one is false.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Good to meet you! So my whole thing is that I think I know nothing, and I have a hard time believing anyone else does, either.]


Do you have a hard time believing that REAL Saints still exist
on earth or that those Saints understand Biblical truth?


Jim
.
 
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JLB777

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I actually meant my previous post for you, but accidentally put freegrace. You might want to look at that, then the one above it. I'm new to this forum and can't figure out how to delete :( .


Welcome brother.

Thanks for sharing.


Do you believe Christians can fall away from Christ?
 
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JLB777

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FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible says differently. John 6:64 and 70-71

Your continued denials are just amazing. John 6:64 with vs 70-71 clearly refute your opinions.

Jesus taught that those who believe (present indicative) have/possess eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. So we KNOW WHEN believers possess eternal life. At the MOMENT of saving faith. Not at the end of their physical lives.

Then Jesus said those He gives eternal life, which are believers, shall never perish.

Yet, you claim believers can lose salvation and perish. Totally against what Jesus taught. So don't tell me what I am denying.


Peter couldn't see the hearts of ANY of the other disciples. He had to assume they were all on the same page. If this is your defense, you don't have one.


lol. That's what your comments are.



So it’s your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?

Yes or No?


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4




JLB
 
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JLB777

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. I mean on the other hand it would seem very hard to believe that Judas witnessed so many miracles performed by Jesus


And performed by himself.


These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
“Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
Matthew 10:5-15
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"No, you are READING differently than what is said. I will point out again that v.26 doesn't say they "cannot believe". It says they "don't believe".
Do I have to explain the difference between "cannot" and "don't"?"
Ok, I will go through this S-L-O-W-L-Y with you so you can understand.
Thanks for your ad hominem. Real professional.

(1) You are correct, if says they "don't believe".
I already knew that.

(2) Then Jesus explains WHY they don't believe and He says
"you are NOT MY SHEEP.
I already knew that. Jesus' sheep ARE believers. Duh.

(3) the next verse Jesus elaborates
and says HIS SHEEP do believe.
You are correct again. So why do you keep resisting what I post?

No, I did not intentionally ignore you... I read the rest of the
CONTEXT where Jesus explained WHY they did not believe
while you pretended it was their choice/refusal to believe.
I'm not pretending anything. The fact that those people were not Jesus' sheep doesn't tell you anything beyond that fact. It tells you NOTHING about WHY they aren't His sheep, which is the FACT that YOU keep missing.

NO MAN can believe unless they are GIVEN that believe
Please back up your opinion with Scripture. Because I don't believe your opinion.

and ALL MEN who are "His sheep" follow Him.
No, His sheep are supposed to follow Him. That's the command given to His sheep. I guess you missed that FACT.

Are you willing to say that ANY of "His sheep" do not believe?
Nope. I am not willing to say anything so STUPID.

Because that is the ONLY WAY to defend your argument...
No, that that conclusion would be stupid as well.

and I bet that is just toooo heretical for you to admit.
I will absolutely admit that your opinions are in error.

The PROBLEM is very simple.
I agree. And the problem lies with you.

You believe in a synergistic gospel where MEN DECIDE
I believe the Biblical Gospel where a Sovereign GOD DECIDES.
Here's a FACT for your Calvinistic tendencies. There are NO verses that teach that God is the Source of anyone's belief. In fact, Scripture says that man believes from his heart. The heart is where the conscience resides and where people make decisions.

It is really as simple as that.
My explanation sure is.

One is True... one is false.
My views are backed up with very clear verses that say what I believe.

Your views are NOT backed up with any verses that say what you believe.

Yes, a very simple issue.
 
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FreeGrace2

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So it’s your position that a person who is in Christ, has no need of obeying His commandments to remain in Him?

Yes or No?
Wow. I've been over this so many times, it's hard to believe that one can be so confused as you seem to be.

The phrases "remain in Him" and "abide in Him" are commandments that are given to believers, saved people. Do you seriously believe that a believer holds their own salvation in their own hands? That would be the height of ridiculous.

Salvation is God's plan. And all those God the Father gives to His Son (that would be believers) will NOT be lost. Don't believe me? OK, do you believe the Bible?

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:39 - This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 - And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Unless you are color blind, the following explanation may help:

The blue words refer to those who believe in Christ for salvation.
The red words refer specifically to eternal security.

You are invited to refute me from Scripture, by exegeting the 3 verses I just quoted.

Now, back to "remain" and "abide". These are words about fellowship. Did the prodigal "remain" or "abide" with his father, like his older brother? No. He broke fellowship.

But you won't even address this fact.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
There are a whole lot of ignorant believers out there in whom "the truth in not in" them.
 
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WordSword

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But back to the topic at hand. There was a whole thread here a couple years ago talking about that scripture you mentioned and whether or not it refuted Universalism (which is the type of argument I was making).

Matthew 7:13-14 does not refute the eventual salvation of all
Good to see you too on this site and your input! Concerning Universalism, it's my opinion that it is a doctrine that is so prevalently opposed to Scripture that there's not much need of discussion about it. I realize that there may be some passages that seem to advocate it (e.g. 1Ti 2:4), though I haven't seen any true Biblical support concerning it, but we can discuss any passages that you feel may be addressing it.
 
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