Book

FunToLive · Oct 5, 2020

Hi! I’ve been studying Judaism and Christianity and other systems of fath out of interest and there are many things I like, agree with, but there are also things I don’t accept or have no idea what to think. I have many many questions.

One thought I have is different approaches to Scripture. There are many different opinions.

But overall question to me, a book is graphic representation of human language. Even if my brother tells me something, we can spend the whole day fighting if I misunderstood something LOL Usually not, but language is far from perfect tool to pass thoughts, ideas, information.

I have really really hard time accepting that God expressed himself through book writing by people. It seems very far-fetched to me. Especially when I read any kind of Scripture and it is in my opinion full of all kinds of imperfections and possibility for endless interpretations. I see a Scripture as people describing their ideas or opinions of events or otherworldly reality. To me, a book cannot be God tool in a direct sense. It could have some sparks of truth or of God information, but can’t be accepted as the only or preferred or ideal source. It just does not make any sense to me.

Especially ancient books that are so far from us in culture, language, mentality, ideas of morality, everything.

So to me, one should certainly study Scripture and draw interesting or beneficial ideas, but to treat it as a universal authority on complete worldview for this life and other dimensions to me is quite strange. As if to ask a group of children draw some pictures and then establish that only what they drew is everything that you should know about life and God. Maybe not the best analogy, but it’s kind of how I see it.

How can you accept it?

Sorry, I hope I was clear in my question.

FunToLive · Oct 5, 2020

to clarify more, it seems strange that God if he is so powerful and performed unbelievable miracles and so cares about people having some knowledge, could not do direct book writing or download information into heads directly etc

Seems far-fetched that such powerful and amazing God who created this world full of energy and endless beautiful intelligence beyond our tiny understanding, suddenly did smth so very weak and inefficient in something so important for people

TzephanYahu · Oct 5, 2020

Shalom @FunToLive

I see your point. But consider the matter objectively...

To relay a message to a people long ago who only had the written word and pictorial communication, dictating instructions would be the only wise way to preserve a message, would it not? Or by what other method would you choose?

If you chose to give a new revelation to each generation using the tools availble to them (the generation I suppose you could say youtube), then where would be the possibility of recording prophecies written hundreds of years before the events? Wouldn't deceivers creep in over this multiple revelation method as well?

Also consider this. Despite your view on the matter, the method of the book, that being the Bible, DID work very well. Judaism and Christianity make up a very large percentage of today's faiths and many countries founding laws were based loosely upon it. So really it worked and does still work today ingeniously, as people's lives still change today because of what's written therein.

It is incredible the Creator gave us His words for recording and how everything in there is inspired (yes, down to the very letter if you know about Bible Codes). It's a scary thought and your disbelief is warranted in a way as it's a big concept to accept because of the implications that follow.

As regard to multiple interpretations. I hear ya. It's a confusing state we find ourselves in today. But believe me, this is by design. The best way to read the Bible is alone, to take it literally and ignore all preconceived ideas you have from the religiosity of Judaism and Christianity. If one does that, approaching the book with respect and humility and not cynicism and mockery, they will find the truth.

Faithandtheword.com/bother/withbible

Good question. Keep on searching and asking! If you don't find a satisfactory answer, keep digging until you do.

May Yahweh bless you on your quest for truth.
Love & Shalom

hluke · Oct 5, 2020

FunToLive said:
To me, a book cannot be God tool in a direct sense. It could have some sparks of truth or of God information, but can’t be accepted as the only or preferred or ideal source. It just does not make any sense to me.

It doesn't make sense because your're not born-again yet.

There comes a time in a believer's life where the words of scripture literally rise up and speak directly to your soul.

As said in the Hebrews 4:12 the scripture is alive and active. As a born-again believer its essentially an avenue to listen to the voice of God directly.

Its truly an experience only a Christian can describe.

And whenever I'm stressed or worried about the things of this world, meditating on scripture gives me that peace that no other practice can give: I tried finding happiness in the things of this world, but I was led nowhere.

So Christ pulled me away from my sin and changed me.

All it takes is one heartfelt prayer, and you're life changes in an instant!

Blessings.

hluke · Oct 5, 2020

FunToLive said:
could not do direct book writing or download information into heads directly etc

Your moral conscience is the love of God deep in your mind.

And since your're made in the image of God, that subtle moral compass is awaiting full activation granted you come to him: he knows everything about you.

Science wishes to disprove God, but God says unbelievers have no excuse and will be condemned to hell.

Christ has his loving hands wide open to take your burden and grant you eternal life

2 Corinthians 4:4
Romans 2:14-16
Romans 1:19-23
John 17:16

St_Worm2 · Oct 5, 2020

Hello @FunToLive, I see that you are brand new around here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF :wave:

This is a pretty big topic of discussion

, so let me start by making a point, and asking you a question.

1) A very central part of the Bible was actually handwritten by God Himself. It's called the Decalogue, and it can be found in the Books of Exodus and Deuteronomy (and it's quoted elsewhere in the Bible too, at least in part .. e.g. Exodus 20:3-17, 31:18.

2) When you read a quote in a book or in a magazine, do you always dismiss the quote out-of-hand because someone else wrote it down? I ask because both the Old Testament and the New Testament are loaded with direct quotes from God Himself, just FYI. For instance,

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no savior besides Me."

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Actually, everything that the Lord Jesus Christ said in the Bible are quotes of God speaking directly to us, as Jesus Christ is God .. e.g. John 1:1-4, 14.

Finally (for now

), there is a recent, very well-done documentary that may interest you (and it is free to watch if you are an Amazon Prime member). It's called The God Who Speaks, and its cast is made up of a number of very well-known theologians, pastors, historians, apologists and linguists.

Here's the trailer.

--David
p.s. - the Bible was written by men, but we believe that God superintended the writing of each and every word within it (so that even the words which were not spoken by Him directly are, nevertheless, the words that He wanted us to have, which is why we call the Bible the "word" of God, not the "words" of God).

1 Peter 1
20 No prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men, moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is inspired by God [literally, "God-breathed"] and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

.

St_Worm2 · Oct 5, 2020

FunToLive said:
I see a Scripture as people describing their ideas or opinions of events or otherworldly reality. To me, a book cannot be God tool in a direct sense. It could have some sparks of truth or of God information, but can’t be accepted as the only or preferred or ideal source. It just does not make any sense to me.

Hello again FunToLive, if the Bible is nothing more than a collection of man's best musings about the Divine (instead of what is it said to be, the breathed word of God Himself), can it really be considered valuable to us :scratch:

For instance, how can we know God (personally), know what He's like, know what He thinks, and especially, what He thinks about us and what He expects from us/intends for us, etc., if the Bible is nothing more than a collection of the thoughts of mere men?

Granted, there are many wise sayings in the Bible that have proven to be valuable to us in and of themselves .. e.g. Proverbs 13:20, 15:22; Matthew 7:12; 1 Corinthians 15:33, but isn't there also much that the should cause us to dismiss all of it out-of-hand as the delusional ravings of a lunatic .. if what the entire Bible has to say is not true?

For instance, the same Man who walked among us and told us things like this ...

Matthew 7
12 Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

John 3
16 God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

... also went to great lengths to prove to us that He was, in fact, God Almighty Himself, the Creator of the Universe and everything/everyone in it :preach:

--David

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

Hello, thank you for your answers to my question. I’ve read carefully and have been thinking about what you said. I’ll reply later when I have more time.

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

TzephanYahu said:
Shalom @FunToLive

I see your point. But consider the matter objectively...

To relay a message to a people long ago who only had the written word and pictorial communication, dictating instructions would be the only wise way to preserve a message, would it not? Or by what other method would you choose?

If you chose to give a new revelation to each generation using the tools availble to them (the generation I suppose you could say youtube), then where would be the possibility of recording prophecies written hundreds of years before the events? Wouldn't deceivers creep in over this multiple revelation method as well?

Also consider this. Despite your view on the matter, the method of the book, that being the Bible, DID work very well. Judaism and Christianity make up a very large percentage of today's faiths and many countries founding laws were based loosely upon it. So really it worked and does still work today ingeniously, as people's lives still change today because of what's written therein.

It is incredible the Creator gave us His words for recording and how everything in there is inspired (yes, down to the very letter if you know about Bible Codes). It's a scary thought and your disbelief is warranted in a way as it's a big concept to accept because of the implications that follow.

As regard to multiple interpretations. I hear ya. It's a confusing state we find ourselves in today. But believe me, this is by design. The best way to read the Bible is alone, to take it literally and ignore all preconceived ideas you have from the religiosity of Judaism and Christianity. If one does that, approaching the book with respect and humility and not cynicism and mockery, they will find the truth.

Faithandtheword.com/bother/withbible

Good question. Keep on searching and asking! If you don't find a satisfactory answer, keep digging until you do.

May Yahweh bless you on your quest for truth.
Love & Shalom

I understand. I disagree God dictated. It would have been really great if he did. But to my perception, Scriptures are clearly human writings, not God’s. I expect much higher level of knowledge and perfection from a God dictated book. This is a regular human book, though created by quite talented people of their time.

As for alternatives, why not create books directly by God free of human imperfections, or a book for each people groups of the world in every historical period and in every language and dialect. Narrow regional and historic coverage is very suspicious for a God of the universe.

Or go away from the medium of human language prone to incorrect conveyance of information, why not do a miracle such as creating objects that would download proper knowledge to each brain in the world? Or whatever other miraculous method to ensure correct understanding and 100% global coverage.

I read to my children different books every night, and now it’s 1 Kings from the Bible. It is so obviously regional and within the cultural context of the Israelites of many centuries ago. God’s command for every man woman child infant animal etc killed with sword or when sending body parts of a bull as a message of threat to different parts of the nation doesn’t fly well today with us. Or God becoming angry with Saul and stripping him of kingship and anointing David, but still keeping Saul as king and occasionally sending him an Evil Spirit that incited a conflict with David is surprising for a being of highest morality. These are just mere examples, which are plentiful.

As for argument of worldwide spread, as we know different religions had a relative spread and often by government decree or by military conquest. Greek Orthodox Byzantium became Muslim under the Ottomans, The Chinese expansion brought Buddhism, European colonies were Christianized etc. Christianity today even nominal is roughly 1/5 of world population. Good but not good enough in my opinion if it’s a measure of efficiency. And it was a slow gradual process of expansion over past 20 centuries to reach today’s spread. About the same global distribution as Islam, is the Quran also God’s Scripture too?

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

hluke said:
It doesn't make sense because your're not born-again yet.

There comes a time in a believer's life where the words of scripture literally rise up and speak directly to your soul.

As said in the Hebrews 4:12 the scripture is alive and active. As a born-again believer its essentially an avenue to listen to the voice of God directly.

Its truly an experience only a Christian can describe.

And whenever I'm stressed or worried about the things of this world, meditating on scripture gives me that peace that no other practice can give: I tried finding happiness in the things of this world, but I was led nowhere.

So Christ pulled me away from my sin and changed me.

All it takes is one heartfelt prayer, and you're life changes in an instant!

Blessings.

I really understand this phenomenon, being from Central Asia but living in Canada now, I observed such deep emotional psychological reaction to Scripture among Muslims or Shamanists. When Muslims listen to the Quran read by a especially talented Muezzin, they can have streams of tears running down their cheeks in feeling complete ecstasy of unification with the divine. Some shamanist Manaschi reciters or people who recite ancient poetic epic about a great hero go into a trance and can recite it for many hours non-stop, inspiring the awed listeners. In Hinduism, those who chose the spiritual path of devotion to a devi, can memorize long sections of Scripture and it can have profound effect on them, inspiring them to do unbelievable things.

So this is not unique to Christianity or even to religion. Some poets or lovers of literature can be deeply inspired and influenced by a written word. Or a devout communist can read the Marx’s Capital and be on fire for world revolution.

As for the Bible, it sure has many very powerful and amazingly beautiful poetic, moral, philosophical passages or books. But then there are more pragmatic or mundane texts such as listing of genealogies, description of punishments for transgressions or grim historic events. For example, it’s difficult for me to imagine being divinly inspired while reading about burning Jephthah own daughter for God or crashing Babylon babies’ heads against rocks... Maybe some people do though...

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

hluke said:
Your moral conscience is the love of God deep in your mind.

And since your're made in the image of God, that subtle moral compass is awaiting full activation granted you come to him: he knows everything about you.

Science wishes to disprove God, but God says unbelievers have no excuse and will be condemned to hell.

Christ has his loving hands wide open to take your burden and grant you eternal life

2 Corinthians 4:4
Romans 2:14-16
Romans 1:19-23
John 17:16

I’m no expert on human psychology, but I’ve read that indeed babies are born with some social morality programs built in. So are babies of other land or sea mammals, such as dogs or dolphins. We can consider it the Creator’s conscience written in our hearts. We also get many less pleasant instincts that societies all over the world are trying in vain to eradicate or at least control. Social behaviour programs are a very useful tools in any group animal survival, including human beings. So I’m sure God has given us this code for our benefit, and it works.

It has nothing to do with knowing about a God, the purpose of life or the afterlife. So to me, it’s information on a different subject matter than what’s presented in the Scripture. Conscience is a practical brain software to help us get along eith each other.

It’s also far from ideal - as it’s manifested to a different degree in each individual and is changed by the upbringing. In some societies, it is perfectly moral to engage in cannibalism or to be promiscuous or to kill a member if a neighbouring tribe to snatch a hunting game. Or people can easily update their moral compass under peer pressure... Again, it’s anyways much better than nothing at all.

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @FunToLive, I see that you are brand new around here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF

This is a pretty big topic of discussion , so let me start by making a point, and asking you a question.

1) A very central part of the Bible was actually handwritten by God Himself. It's called the Decalogue, and it can be found in the Books of Exodus and Deuteronomy (and it's quoted elsewhere in the Bible too, at least in part .. e.g. Exodus 20:3-17, 31:18.

2) When you read a quote in a book or in a magazine, do you always dismiss the quote out-of-hand because someone else wrote it down? I ask because both the Old Testament and the New Testament are loaded with direct quotes from God Himself, just FYI. For instance,

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
In order that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no savior besides Me."

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Actually, everything that the Lord Jesus Christ said in the Bible are quotes of God speaking directly to us, as Jesus Christ is God .. e.g. John 1:1-4, 14.

Finally (for now ), there is a recent, very well-done documentary that may interest you (and it is free to watch if you are an Amazon Prime member). It's called The God Who Speaks, and its cast is made up of a number of very well-known theologians, pastors, historians, apologists and linguists.

Here's the trailer.

--David
p.s. - the Bible was written by men, but we believe that God superintended the writing of each and every word within it (so that even the words which were not spoken by Him directly are, nevertheless, the words that He wanted us to have, which is why we call the Bible the "word" of God, not the "words" of God).

1 Peter 1
20 No prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men, moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is inspired by God [literally, "God-breathed"] and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.
.

The doctrine of Divine inspiration. Two types of Scripture - direct speech by God and author’s words, but also put into the author’s minds by God.

This is a teaching I can’t accept as I don’t see the quality and integrity of the texts to attest to God’s authorship. Though as I said in my OP, some if it sure could have come from God or is correct representation of truths about God or the spiritual world.

I read the books and the Christian teachings are so nice and smooth, but the books aren’t so. They have contradictions and mistakes and evolution of ideas, and generally in my opinion fall very short of a work written by a infinitely perfect and wise being.

I don’t have Amazon Prime, but I’ll see if the documentary could be rented on Youtube or elsewhere.

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Hello again FunToLive, if the Bible is nothing more than a collection of man's best musings about the Divine (instead of what is it said to be, the breathed word of God Himself), can it really be considered valuable to us For instance, how can we know God (personally), know what He's like, know what He thinks, and especially, what He thinks about us and what He expects from us/intends for us, etc., if the Bible is nothing more than a collection of the thoughts of mere men?

Granted, there are many wise sayings in the Bible that have proven to be valuable to us in and of themselves .. e.g. Proverbs 13:20, 15:22; Matthew 7:12; 1 Corinthians 15:33, but isn't there also much that the should cause us to dismiss all of it out-of-hand as the delusional ravings of a lunatic .. if what the entire Bible has to say is not true?

For instance, the same Man who walked among us and told us things like this ...

Matthew 7
12 Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

John 3
16 God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

... also went to great lengths to prove to us that He was, in fact, God Almighty Himself, the Creator of the Universe and everything/everyone in it

--David

This is the whole point of my question I think. Not for pure intellectual exercise, but seeking for truth. In religion, philosophy, science, literature, own experience of life.

I see the Bible and other surviving ancient and some modern Scripture as highly intriguing sources. I can’t accept them coming directly from God for the reasons I mentioned. Hard to see what could be really coming from God in them, if anything.

ViaCrucis · Oct 6, 2020

FunToLive said:
Hi! I’ve been studying Judaism and Christianity and other systems of fath out of interest and there are many things I like, agree with, but there are also things I don’t accept or have no idea what to think. I have many many questions.

One thought I have is different approaches to Scripture. There are many different opinions.

But overall question to me, a book is graphic representation of human language. Even if my brother tells me something, we can spend the whole day fighting if I misunderstood something LOL Usually not, but language is far from perfect tool to pass thoughts, ideas, information.

I have really really hard time accepting that God expressed himself through book writing by people. It seems very far-fetched to me. Especially when I read any kind of Scripture and it is in my opinion full of all kinds of imperfections and possibility for endless interpretations. I see a Scripture as people describing their ideas or opinions of events or otherworldly reality. To me, a book cannot be God tool in a direct sense. It could have some sparks of truth or of God information, but can’t be accepted as the only or preferred or ideal source. It just does not make any sense to me.

Especially ancient books that are so far from us in culture, language, mentality, ideas of morality, everything.

So to me, one should certainly study Scripture and draw interesting or beneficial ideas, but to treat it as a universal authority on complete worldview for this life and other dimensions to me is quite strange. As if to ask a group of children draw some pictures and then establish that only what they drew is everything that you should know about life and God. Maybe not the best analogy, but it’s kind of how I see it.

How can you accept it?

Sorry, I hope I was clear in my question.

So traditionally Christianity maintains that God's self-disclosure of Himself isn't the Bible, it's Jesus. Jesus Christ is God's Word.

The Bible isn't God's self-disclosure, but is the testament, the witness to God's self-disclosure in Jesus. The Bible is, therefore, about Jesus. The point of the Bible is to point us back to Jesus.

God didn't write a book, or reveal Himself in a book (and, in fact, it's important to understand that the Bible isn't a book at all, but a collection of books); God became flesh, became man, Jesus. Jesus is God's Word, Jesus is God's own revelation of Himself to us. The Bible serves to direct our focus back to Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
So traditionally Christianity maintains that God's self-disclosure of Himself isn't the Bible, it's Jesus. Jesus Christ is God's Word.

The Bible isn't God's self-disclosure, but is the testament, the witness to God's self-disclosure in Jesus. The Bible is, therefore, about Jesus. The point of the Bible is to point us back to Jesus.

God didn't write a book, or reveal Himself in a book (and, in fact, it's important to understand that the Bible isn't a book at all, but a collection of books); God became flesh, became man, Jesus. Jesus is God's Word, Jesus is God's own revelation of Himself to us. The Bible serves to direct our focus back to Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

I understand this. Not all of the Bible is about Jesus though. Some books in it are. Yes, the Bible is an anthology of books from the Jewish and Christian canons, but it’s usually looked at as a single body of Scripture.

God expressed himself in Jesus, but in Christianity the Bible is considered to be the inspired word of God and so it is also a form of his expression to the humankind, including the story about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. It’s used as an undoubted source of all information about history, how to live, purpose of life, the future events, the character of God, his dealings with people, the spiritual realm etc.

So it might be just a humble pointer to Jesus Christ, but definitely given much greater significance than just that by Christians.

I can’t accept this claim, because in my view, the Bible fails to match the grandiosity of the claim.

hluke · Oct 6, 2020

FunToLive said:
Hi! I’ve been studying Judaism and Christianity and other systems of fath out of interest and there are many things I like, agree with, but there are also things I don’t accept or have no idea what to think. I have many many questions.

One thought I have is different approaches to Scripture. There are many different opinions.

But overall question to me, a book is graphic representation of human language. Even if my brother tells me something, we can spend the whole day fighting if I misunderstood something LOL Usually not, but language is far from perfect tool to pass thoughts, ideas, information.

I have really really hard time accepting that God expressed himself through book writing by people. It seems very far-fetched to me. Especially when I read any kind of Scripture and it is in my opinion full of all kinds of imperfections and possibility for endless interpretations. I see a Scripture as people describing their ideas or opinions of events or otherworldly reality. To me, a book cannot be God tool in a direct sense. It could have some sparks of truth or of God information, but can’t be accepted as the only or preferred or ideal source. It just does not make any sense to me.

Especially ancient books that are so far from us in culture, language, mentality, ideas of morality, everything.

So to me, one should certainly study Scripture and draw interesting or beneficial ideas, but to treat it as a universal authority on complete worldview for this life and other dimensions to me is quite strange. As if to ask a group of children draw some pictures and then establish that only what they drew is everything that you should know about life and God. Maybe not the best analogy, but it’s kind of how I see it.

How can you accept it?

Sorry, I hope I was clear in my question.

So are you actually seeking Christianity or other belief systems, or are you asking for evidence and then refuting claims because you are unwilling to accept any reality of God?

What's the point of asking a question in the first place?

My friend,
you can receive all the evidence in the world, and yet be skeptical.

Its perfectly reasonable to ask questions about Christianity,and any other belief system, but what's the point if your're unwilling to accept the reality of God (as you seem to be), and deny any evidence seemingly for your own ego?

You find yourself asking perfectly insightful questions and then receive evidence but you might still be saying for eternity... "But I still think"... "No actually"... "I don't agree"..."I prefer..."Well according to..."

Constant hypocrisy

The best evidence in my view is experiencing God's presence in your life.

I personally was possessed by a devil but was healed by the power of Christ... and no I was not mentally insane, this was obviously supernatural... and now I'm a completely changed person by the grace of God.

And to be honest if you are going to refute every claim and continue to beat around the bush, then you can probably make your way to the debate section of this forum.

Jesus says, "Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No' anything more than this comes from the evil one." Mt 5:37

Are you really a seeker or a skeptic?

I'll ask the same question back to you.

How can you accept it?

Because as you mention you do "have a really hard time" accepting some things.

Go look up Ravi Zacharias on youtube. I'm sure he'll tingle that doubt in you.

With Love.

FunToLive · Oct 6, 2020

hluke said:
So are you actually seeking Christianity or other belief systems, or are you asking for evidence and then refuting claims because you are unwilling to accept any reality of God?

What's the point of asking a question in the first place?

My friend,
you can receive all the evidence in the world, and yet be skeptical.

Its perfectly reasonable to ask questions about Christianity,and any other belief system, but what's the point if your're unwilling to accept the reality of God (as you seem to be), and deny any evidence seemingly for your own ego?

You find yourself asking perfectly insightful questions and then receive evidence but you might still be saying for eternity... "But I still think"... "No actually"... "I don't agree"..."I prefer..."Well according to..."

Constant hypocrisy

The best evidence in my view is experiencing God's presence in your life.

I personally was possessed by a devil but was healed by the power of Christ... and no I was not mentally insane, this was obviously supernatural... and now I'm a completely changed person by the grace of God.

And to be honest if you are going to refute every claim and continue to beat around the bush, then you can probably make your way to the debate section of this forum.

Jesus says, "Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No' anything more than this comes from the evil one." Mt 5:37

Are you really a seeker or a skeptic?

I'll ask the same question back to you.

How can you accept it?

Because as you mention you do "have a really hard time" accepting some things.

Go look up Ravi Zacharias on youtube. I'm sure he'll tingle that doubt in you.

With Love.

I wouldn’t and can’t debate. I know too little to pretend to be knowledgable. Here to ask and listen. I share my thoughts. Trying to stay open. It’s very hard. One day I accept more, another day I doubt. I like the Bible and Christianity and I think it’s a book and teaching that has influenced me more than any other. The morality of Jesus Christ most of all. I like other sources too. I hope I don’t come across as a debater or a hardline skeptic or a refuter. Not my purpose and not my attitude. Seeking and trying to search and understand. Honestly saying if can’t accept. Hypocrisy if playing games or pretending, for ego satisfaction or whatever. In fact it’s very hard and vulnerable to share deep honest thinking. I do it with my very good friends who are from churches or mosques or temples or other groups. Often they are more interested to proselytize, then to engage in productive conversation, which I understand.

Glad to hear you story of deliverance and finding a new reformed life. It’s powerful.

ViaCrucis · Oct 6, 2020

FunToLive said:
I understand this. Not all of the Bible is about Jesus though. Some books in it are. Yes, the Bible is an anthology of books from the Jewish and Christian canons, but it’s usually looked at as a single body of Scripture.

I suppose I need to be more clear. In Christianity the entire Bible is about Jesus. Even when it doesn't explicitly talk about Jesus, it's still about Jesus. In Christianity the entire Old Testament, those books (or most of them anyway) which are accepted in the Jewish Tanakh, are understood in Christianity as being about, and pointing to Jesus. From Genesis onward, it's all about Jesus. The calling of Abraham out from Ur? It's about Jesus. Moses and the Exodus? Jesus. The kingdom of Israel? Jesus. David and Solomon? Jesus. All the prophets? Again, Jesus.

The point of the Christian Bible is Jesus. Jesus is what makes the Christian Bible the Christian Bible.

God expressed himself in Jesus, but in Christianity the Bible is considered to be the inspired word of God and so it is also a form of his expression to the humankind, including the story about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Again, this needs to be placed into the historic, Christian context: The Bible is considered to be the inspired word of God, because it's about Jesus. The Bible does not stand by itself, the Bible stands in the context of the Gospel Story, the coming of Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God who gives Himself and His life to the world; and within the context of the living, worshiping, active community of Christians--followers of Jesus Christ--known as the Christian Church. The Bible only exists, meaningfully, in this context; as the authoritative texts of the Christian Church which form the basis of Christian worship and practice centered around Jesus Christ and His Gospel, giving identity and substance to the community of the Faithful.

It’s used as an undoubted source of all information about history, how to live, purpose of life, the future events, the character of God, his dealings with people, the spiritual realm etc.

Yes, but then, see above. The Bible is not a naked book of divine propositions outside of the context of the believing community, and its confession of faith in Jesus. The Bible, outside of this context, may be a lot of things, but it is the word of God because it is authoritative in the context of Christian worship and practice, in directing that community of faith to Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

So it might be just a humble pointer to Jesus Christ, but definitely given much greater significance than just that by Christians.

I can’t accept this claim, because in my view, the Bible fails to match the grandiosity of the claim.

Note that I am speaking from a specifically historically and traditionally Christian perspective. Modern views differ, for example, modern views that the Bible is scientifically inerrant, or similar--that's simply not within the purview of the historic, and traditional understanding of the Christian religion. The Bible is not a magic book that fell out of heaven from God, it is a witness-bearing collection of texts which the Christian Church has received, down through the centuries, as authoritative for her faith and worship; namely those books which are to be read within the setting of the Divine Liturgy, and which shape and frame our faith and experiences as both individual Christians and as members of the larger community of faith.

In a sense, saying that you don't find much significance about the Bible, as someone on the outside of the faith, is a bit like seeing the memoirs of my grandfather who you have no relation to and have never met, not understanding the significance of such memoirs--but why would you, or anyone for that matter, it's meaningful in the context of my family. The Bible is for the Church; now it's central theme and message--and thus the central theme and message of the Church's preaching in the world: of God's universal love of sinners in a hurting world reconciling us and all of creation to Himself by His becoming part of that broken world and healing it, i.e. the Gospel, that is for you, that's for everyone. That's God's word to the world, to everybody. The Bible contains that word, proclaims that word; but the Bible itself, that is the Church's document. And thus, for example, the apostolic dictates for how a Christian is supposed to live and act in relationship to others, that is an expectation we place on ourselves as Christians seeking to live our faith out in the world--but that's obviously not something for anyone outside of the Church. It would be silly to expect non-Christians to live as Christians. So, again, the Bible isn't for non-Christians, it's for the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

TzephanYahu · Oct 7, 2020

FunToLive said:
I understand. I disagree God dictated. It would have been really great if he did. But to my perception, Scriptures are clearly human writings, not God’s. I expect much higher level of knowledge and perfection from a God dictated book. This is a regular human book, though created by quite talented people of their time.

You say in your perception. Is your perception sufficiently attuned enough to distinguish the instructions of man and a God? Or to put it another way, do you trust your perception to the level where you would stake your eternity on it?

FunToLive said:
As for alternatives, why not create books directly by God free of human imperfections, or a book for each people groups of the world in every historical period and in every language and dialect. Narrow regional and historic coverage is very suspicious for a God of the universe.

Because that’s not the point. Yahweh chose Israel to be a light to the nations from among the nations. But after the Flood, all knew of Yahweh, but spread from Noah and followed the whims of their own heart and all the nations developed from there. As to why Yahweh chose Israel, that story is in the Bible.

FunToLive said:
Or go away from the medium of human language prone to incorrect conveyance of information, why not do a miracle such as creating objects that would download proper knowledge to each brain in the world? Or whatever other miraculous method to ensure correct understanding and 100% global coverage.

So you foresee a world where people are born and then touch and object and download all the information they need to know? It sounds awfully close to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. As to why He didn’t create such a thing, I have personal theories, but nothing I can say with Scriptural certainty.

FunToLive said:
I read to my children different books every night, and now it’s 1 Kings from the Bible. It is so obviously regional and within the cultural context of the Israelites of many centuries ago. God’s command for every man woman child infant animal etc killed with sword or when sending body parts of a bull as a message of threat to different parts of the nation doesn’t fly well today with us.

The Bible is a book of history as well as prophecy. The stories must be relayed honestly and accurately. If you wanted a more cheery “everything is awesome” book, there are plenty of others to choose from which will make you feel good. But the Bible is concerned with the truth – however it may seem to future generations who judge it by their transient standards.

FunToLive said:
As for argument of worldwide spread, as we know different religions had a relative spread and often by government decree or by military conquest. Greek Orthodox Byzantium became Muslim under the Ottomans, The Chinese expansion brought Buddhism, European colonies were Christianized etc. Christianity today even nominal is roughly 1/5 of world population. Good but not good enough in my opinion if it’s a measure of efficiency.

I disagree with your assessment there and think it would benefit from deeper research. However, you are free to look into all religions to see what speaks to you. But in terms of global and historical impact – nothing comes close to the Bible, whether you believe it to be true or not.

Great responses. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I enjoyed reading and considering them.

Love & Shalom

FunToLive · Oct 7, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
I suppose I need to be more clear. In Christianity the entire Bible is about Jesus. Even when it doesn't explicitly talk about Jesus, it's still about Jesus. In Christianity the entire Old Testament, those books (or most of them anyway) which are accepted in the Jewish Tanakh, are understood in Christianity as being about, and pointing to Jesus. From Genesis onward, it's all about Jesus. The calling of Abraham out from Ur? It's about Jesus. Moses and the Exodus? Jesus. The kingdom of Israel? Jesus. David and Solomon? Jesus. All the prophets? Again, Jesus.

The point of the Christian Bible is Jesus. Jesus is what makes the Christian Bible the Christian Bible.

Again, this needs to be placed into the historic, Christian context: The Bible is considered to be the inspired word of God, because it's about Jesus. The Bible does not stand by itself, the Bible stands in the context of the Gospel Story, the coming of Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God who gives Himself and His life to the world; and within the context of the living, worshiping, active community of Christians--followers of Jesus Christ--known as the Christian Church. The Bible only exists, meaningfully, in this context; as the authoritative texts of the Christian Church which form the basis of Christian worship and practice centered around Jesus Christ and His Gospel, giving identity and substance to the community of the Faithful.

Yes, but then, see above. The Bible is not a naked book of divine propositions outside of the context of the believing community, and its confession of faith in Jesus. The Bible, outside of this context, may be a lot of things, but it is the word of God because it is authoritative in the context of Christian worship and practice, in directing that community of faith to Jesus Christ and His Gospel.

Note that I am speaking from a specifically historically and traditionally Christian perspective. Modern views differ, for example, modern views that the Bible is scientifically inerrant, or similar--that's simply not within the purview of the historic, and traditional understanding of the Christian religion. The Bible is not a magic book that fell out of heaven from God, it is a witness-bearing collection of texts which the Christian Church has received, down through the centuries, as authoritative for her faith and worship; namely those books which are to be read within the setting of the Divine Liturgy, and which shape and frame our faith and experiences as both individual Christians and as members of the larger community of faith.

In a sense, saying that you don't find much significance about the Bible, as someone on the outside of the faith, is a bit like seeing the memoirs of my grandfather who you have no relation to and have never met, not understanding the significance of such memoirs--but why would you, or anyone for that matter, it's meaningful in the context of my family. The Bible is for the Church; now it's central theme and message--and thus the central theme and message of the Church's preaching in the world: of God's universal love of sinners in a hurting world reconciling us and all of creation to Himself by His becoming part of that broken world and healing it, i.e. the Gospel, that is for you, that's for everyone. That's God's word to the world, to everybody. The Bible contains that word, proclaims that word; but the Bible itself, that is the Church's document. And thus, for example, the apostolic dictates for how a Christian is supposed to live and act in relationship to others, that is an expectation we place on ourselves as Christians seeking to live our faith out in the world--but that's obviously not something for anyone outside of the Church. It would be silly to expect non-Christians to live as Christians. So, again, the Bible isn't for non-Christians, it's for the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

I think I understand this view, though maybe not fully. It took me very careful reading to grasp the ideas.

It sounds logical. I personally find such view hard to accept, I think it requires a lot of indoctrination to filter the Biblical texts to view in such an all-encompassing completely Christ-centered light. I grew up under communism in the USSR and was heavily indoctrinated in the ideology from the cradle. It somewhat reminds me of such view, and I don’t mean to insult. I share my thoughts. We were taught that marxism-leninism is the ultimate teaching “it is correct because itbis right” that explains absolutely everything, from history to social evolution to personal and political conflict to psychology etc. For example, literature course was all about pro or against communist ideals, even in Homer’s Illiad or Dostoyevski’s Crime and Punishment. All about the struggle of classes and craving for equal labour free of exploitation imposed by force and false ideologies.

Even as little children we were taught to love your parents because Lenin said so as we need to become good builders of a perfect society where everybody serves each other...

Anyways, I see that this view works and inspired people as long as you take many assumptions as axioms and filter everything through the lens of the view, no matter if you have to really close your eyes to many things that do not fit the mold. I’ve been there. For example, it was perfectly fine for me to read about a little boy Pavlik Morozov who snitched on his own father during the Bolshevik-Tsarist civil war and caused the father’s arrest and execution for hiding grain at the time of hunger and not submitting it to the needs of the Red Army as required... He was hailed as a great hero, sacrificing everything for establishment of communism in the future. Or I was clapping when watching movies where the Reds were massacring those awful Tsarists... Through my prism, it was the best deed ever. Not anymore, of course, thankfully.

When I try to consider the Bible objectively, I don’t see it fit the narrative of it being cover to cover about Jesus in one way or another. I don’t see how it’s for edifying the church as it tends to make the church more confused when they truly endeavour to learn something from it diligently because of its contradicting messages. The go-to method to avoid this confusion is teaching doctrines carefully, and cut-and-paste selection of passages as substantiation. But then it’s not the Bible anymore, but the authors of the teachings that are really the source of the view. Same was done in our “social science” course at school (basically marxism-leninism ideology course). Carefully selected quotes from the great ones to push ideas into our heads.

I think I’m just repeating my points, but I’m sharing my thoughts the way I see it. I guess we can go on eternal cycle of giving our views to each other, but I want to assure I listen to, feel and respect your view. Maybe not fully understand it as, in my opinion, it can be overly generic or vague sometimes or needing some assumptions that are way detached from how I see reality.

I see that it can have very powerful positive effect on people, because the essence of Jesus teaching is deeply moral and life changing for people who embrace it sincerely in their hearts and not just as lip service.

So it’s not about rejecting for the sake of rejecting. I can’t accept it intellectually, but I see the beauty and spiritual strength of the teaching in practical application. I think other relogions that share similar ideas, maybe expressed in very different terms, can lead to same results. It’s about love, service and sacrifice.

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