Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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Zao is life

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Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

I agree:

Rev 2:26-27 "And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father."

To me the question is, to the end of what?

At the close of the millennium, Jesus will put an end to all rule and authority and power when He Himself hands the Kingdom back to the Father, so how can these promises have already been received by those two whom it was promised?

Jesus went even further and promised "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne." (Rev 3:21).

That's quite a promise. Which saints have ever sat down with Christ on His throne?
 
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Zao is life

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The judgment of the dead is at the end of Revelation 20.
The judgment of the dead in Revelation 20 comes after the casting of Satan into the lake of fire - where the beast and the false prophet already are.

How long have the beast and false prophet been there?
Paul said the judgment of the living and the dead comes at His appearing.
The judgment of the dead is also in Revelation 11:15-18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
Paul also said that when Christ returns, those who died in Christ will rise from the dead (1 Corinthians 15). Where's the rest of the dead?
 
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BABerean2

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Which saints have ever sat down with Christ on His throne?


Where are "souls" found?


Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

.
 
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Zao is life

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Where are "souls" found?


Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
.. and the Greek word used for a thousand years is?
 
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Zao is life

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Where are "souls" found?


Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

.
Rev 6:9 is not referring to souls who lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I like the way you avoid answering questions.

Satan is cast into the lake of fire before the judgment of the dead "(the second death"), and the beast and false prophet are already there.

1. How long have the beast and false prophet been in the lake of fire when Satan arrives?
2. What is the first death?
 
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BABerean2

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1. How long have the beast and false prophet been in the lake of fire when Satan arrives?




Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.
 
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Zao is life

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Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Revelation 18 is talking about the destruction of a wicked city by an evil beast. Revelation 20:8 is talking about the deception of all the nations to gather them against the camp of the saints.

You are so desperate already that you're just throwing any scriptures together that do not belong together.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The nations gather against one city - the camp of the saints - and that's not Babylon the Great.

This is Babylon the Great:

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

You're just making it more and more plain that you are so desperate already that you're just throwing any scriptures together that do not belong together.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

They were cast alive into the lake of fire - Fire does not come down from heaven and devour them - and they are already there when Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire.. .

How long have the beast and the false prophet been in the lake of fire before Satan is thrown in it?

Instead of just answering plainly, you are merely showing that you are so desperate already that you're just throwing any scriptures together that do not belong together.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire..

1. If that's the second death, what is the first death?

2. When is the first death?

It's shocking how you put passages together that do not belong together in order to imply that they are all referring to what takes place at the time of the Lord's parousia.

The closing verses of Revelation 19 and the closing verses of Revelation 20 have a thousand years in-between them, and you can put them together and bend and twist everything to attempt to force-fit A-mill false theories all you like, but those verses you quoted still do not belong together.

You still have not answered plainly:

1. When Satan is cast into the lake of fire the beast and false prophet are already there. How long have the beast and false prophet been there?

2. What is the first death?
 
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Timtofly

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One last thing killed the doctrine for me.
I will never be able to see Christ conducting funeral services for dead mortals for a period of 1,000 years after His Second Coming. If there are mortals living on the planet for that time period, some of them are going to die in accidents.
How can this represent now though? Christ would have presided over millions of funerals either way, no? Why are accidents singled out as being wickedness?
 
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chad kincham

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If you look at the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons from the time of the American Revolutionary War you will not find your Two Peoples of God doctrine.

I have no idea what your ‘two people of God’ comment has to do with the fact that Adam and Eve were in the dispensation of human government, that Moses received the dispensation of law, and we currently are in the dispensation of grace.
 
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DavidPT

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I agree:

Rev 2:26-27 "And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father."

To me the question is, to the end of what?

At the close of the millennium, Jesus will put an end to all rule and authority and power when He Himself hands the Kingdom back to the Father, so how can these promises have already been received by those two whom it was promised?

Jesus went even further and promised "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne." (Rev 3:21).

That's quite a promise. Which saints have ever sat down with Christ on His throne?

And the thing about that, which I already pointed out in that other post, if we are to believe Amil is the correct position, and assuming Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 are not meaning it will be like that for forever, and the fact Amils believe there is only a 24 hour day or less remaining once Christ returns, this would indicate that Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 are only being fulfilled for a total of 24 hours or less.

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Assuming Amil, what Jesus is really saying in verse 30, this assuming what's recorded in that verse is not meaning that will be the case throughout all eternity, is this---Only on the same day I return, ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, for a total of 24 hours or maybe less, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, for a total of 24 hours or maybe less.

IMO, Amils are likely misinterpreting what 'judging' is meaning in that context. For all I know, they might even think it's meaning they are co-judging alongside God at the great white throne judgment, and that they get to help decide what to do with some of 12 twelves of Israel.
 
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chad kincham

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Therefore the New Covenant does not belong to the genetic descendants, unless they, too, believe in Jesus. The New Covenant is in Christ, through His blood - His robe is dipped in blood - His own blood - and HE AND HE ALONE is the seed of Abraham through whom all the families of the earth would be blessed.

Your exaltation of unbelieving Jews, which you displayed in your first post when you falsely claimed the New Covenant "belongs to them because they are the genetic seed" is idolatry. You're worshiping the golden calf they have erected for themselves in their wilderness.

There’s this guy called the apostle Paul, who said gentile believers are grafted into the covenant God has with Israel.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


The fact that scripture says the new covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel, means genetic Jews are still God’s covenant people, and we have to be grafted in via faith in the Jewish Messiah.
 
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DavidPT

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Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

I have brought this verse up as well, in the past. This is a very interesting verse, where it can lead to two possible conclusions, 1)---it's what satan was doing which led to him getting bound for a thousand years. 2)---it's what satan was doing once he was released from the pit after the thousand years.

If it's meaning 2) rather than 1), that would undeniably prove Amil. But if it's meaning 1) rather than 2), that would undeniably prove Premil instead.
 
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chad kincham

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The people who replace (God's only) Israel with a non-Israel which consists only of a genetic seed of Judah who reject Christ, are the people who are teaching Replacement Theology. Their false accusation will come down on their own heads because they're telling God He has no right to have put His New Covenant in Christ alone.

That statement makes no sense to me.

Replacement theology claims God has cast out Israel permanently, and replaced them with the church.

Not only is God not done with Israel, the new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel, and all Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah are in it, gentiles who believe in the Jewish Messiah, are grafted in.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel, and with the HOUSE of Judah:

House of Israel means the genetic Jews, the national Jews - as when Jesus told the apostles to avoid taking the gospel to the gentiles and other non Jews, because He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel.


Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel.
 
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Zao is life

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IMO, Amils are likely misinterpreting what 'judging' is meaning in that context. For all I know, they might even think it's meaning they are co-judging alongside God at the great white throne judgment, and that they get to help decide what to do with some of 12 twelves of Israel.
Yes, and I'm glad you brought that up because that's the only thing they can interpret the word "judging" to mean.
 
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Zao is life

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There’s this guy called the apostle Paul, who said gentile believers are grafted into the covenant God has with Israel.

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Rom 11:19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


The fact that scripture says the new covenant is with the HOUSE of Israel, means genetic Jews are still God’s covenant people, and we have to be grafted in via faith in the Jewish Messiah.
You never read anything in he Bible that tells you who the house of Israel is? It's not the Jews. And you are misrepresenting the Biblical scriptures by saying that the house of Israel = genetic Jews.

I corrected you but you do so anyway. You clearly never even read what I posted.

Israel = (the house of Israel + the house of Judah).

(The house of Israel + the house of Judah) = Israel.

The Jews are genetic descendants of the house of Judah, hence of Israel (but not of the house of Israel). The New Covenant was not only promised to the house of Judah. The house of Judah rejected Christ, and the new covenant is in Him, so it's not theirs because they won't receive it.

If someone offers you a gift and you say "No thanks I don't want it" then it's not yours until you want it.
 
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Zao is life

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That statement makes no sense to me.

Replacement theology claims God has cast out Israel permanently, and replaced them with the church.

Not only is God not done with Israel, the new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel, and all Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah are in it, gentiles who believe in the Jewish Messiah, are grafted in.

You don't even know who the New Covenant was for, because you keep leaving out the Jews from it by calling the Jews "the house of Israel" and saying the New Covenant belongs to "the house of Israel", leaving the house of Judah out of it. You have no right to expel the Jews - who are genetically the house of Judah and not the house of Israel - from the New Covenant in Christ. Only they can expel themselves through their unbelief.

Not only are you misrepresenting the scriptures but you are also misrepresenting Covenant Theology. The New Covenant is in Christ alone - that's why the majority of the Jewish branches remain broken off - because they reject Him.

You are the one teaching Replacement Theology here. No one else.
 
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Zao is life

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This is for all reading this thread:

Before the early 13th century there were no chapter and verse divisions in any of the Biblical texts.

The chapters we see in our Bibles today began to be developed in the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton. Different schemas for systematic division were also developed by Cardinal Hugo de Sancto Caro, but the chapters we see today are based on Stephen Langton's work.

The chapters were only sub-divided into verses by editors in the 16th century.

The original text, quoted below starting from Christ appearing on a white horse and coming with His armies to destroy the beast, reads as follows when translated into English, bearing in mind that the original Greek text uses the Greek word chílioi which ALWAYS means "a thousand" - denoting a one-thousand year period (a one-thousand year period only):

--------------------------​

And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war. And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself. And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh. And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

-----------------------------------​

In the original text it's 100% clear that what the Greek word chílioi denotes as a one-thousand year period, follows the casting of the beast & false prophet into the lake of fire, and the loosing again of Satan follows the one-thousand year period, and the rest follows the loosing again of Satan.

Doing mental gymnastics to read the one-thousand year period as symbolic of thousands of years, involves never-ending collisions with fact and reality, and with a host of other passages and verses of scripture.
 
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BABerean2

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That statement makes no sense to me.

Replacement theology claims God has cast out Israel permanently, and replaced them with the church.

Not only is God not done with Israel, the new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel, and all Jews who accept Jesus as Messiah are in it, gentiles who believe in the Jewish Messiah, are grafted in.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE of Israel, and with the HOUSE of Judah:

House of Israel means the genetic Jews, the national Jews - as when Jesus told the apostles to avoid taking the gospel to the gentiles and other non Jews, because He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel.


Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the HOUSE of Israel.


You are ignoring Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which prove the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about seven years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.


You are replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with Two Peoples of God.

You are replacing the one seed in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds.

You are replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.


You are also ignoring Romans 11:1-5, where Paul reveals two different groups of Israelites. Most worshipped Baal, and there was another small group of faithful Israelites who followed God during the time of Elijah.
Paul said there was also a "remnant" during his time.
Paul provides no Plan B of salvation outside of the Church in the chapter.


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BABerean2

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When Satan is cast into the lake of fire the beast and false prophet are already there. How long have the beast and false prophet been there?


Who is the "strong man" Jesus is talking about in the passage below?

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


When did Christ defeat the enemy?

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

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Satan is thrown into the fire on the same day. It happens at the Second Coming of Christ.


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DavidPT

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Satan is thrown into the fire on the same day. It happens at the Second Coming of Christ.


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Can you provide any Scriptures that tell us satan is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming? I'm meaning Scriptures that are as crystal clear as Revelation 19:20, for example, is. We know from that Scripture that the beast and fp are cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming. But where is there a Scripture that indicates satan is also cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming, where it clearly states that?
 
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