Temporal Salvation?

5thKingdom said:

Now, I am very aware that unsaved tares do not LIKE the
Gospel and they change the proclamation of of the finished
work of Christ into a "free offer" of salvation to all men.

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Yeah and that’s what the church taught since the very first century. You may have heard of it. It was called the Catholic Church. Did you know that the word Catholic actually means universal? Why do you suppose they called it the Universal Church ever since the first century. Do you think they called it that because it was exclusive? So next time you talk about changing the gospel you might want to actually take a look at what the early church taught. Your theology didn’t exist until a little over 500 years ago my friend.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t disagree that some were never meant to be saved I disagree on the reason they were not meant to be saved. They weren’t saved because they chose not to believe and repent.

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Jim's "never meant to be saved" rhetoric can only be understood correctly by the Reformed concept (regardless of his refusal and objections to association with any named form of Calvinism) of soteriology. God, from the foundation of the world, never meant for some, indeed most, to go to heaven, but always meant for some to go to heaven. These are universal mandates that reveal the personal motivations and desires of God's thinking, which in turn tells us something about the character of God.

A non-Calvinistic soteriology would not ever use those terms, because our view of God cannot abide a characterization that would allow a God who is Love to deliberately prevent some from ever having the opportunity for redemption, and that, before creation of mankind. There is a sever disconnect somewhere that can bide such a premise. As a general rule, no one is ever meant to have no opportunity of salvation. Even Judas could have been redeemed had he not killed himself.


Doug

BNR32FAN said:

Your theology didn’t exist until a little over 500 years ago my friend.

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Well certainly not in a systematic sense, but Augustine certainly sowed the foundational seeds of it in his debate with Pelagius in the 4th century. There were some hit and miss theologians that also attempted to build on Augustinian thought in later centuries, but Calvin is the one that really fleshed it out fully, and Beza, Calvin's successor, cemented it even more! Your are correct, however, that the teachings of the church fathers was overwhelmingly synergistic, including those taught directly by the Apostles.

As a side note, Augustine had been a part of a Gnostic like cult, "the Persian religion, Manichaeism, and later to Neoplatonism." Many of these Gnostic ideas were later brought to bear in his theological treatises.

Doug

TibiasDad said:

Jim's "never meant to be saved" rhetoric can only be understood correctly by the Reformed concept (regardless of his refusal and objections to association with any named form of Calvinism) of soteriology. God, from the foundation of the world, never meant for some, indeed most, to go to heaven, but always meant for some to go to heaven. These are universal mandates that reveal the personal motivations and desires of God's thinking, which in turn tells us something about the character of God.

A non-Calvinistic soteriology would not ever use those terms, because our view of God cannot abide a characterization that would allow a God who is Love to deliberately prevent some from ever having the opportunity for redemption, and that, before creation of mankind. There is a sever disconnect somewhere that can bide such a premise. As a general rule, no one is ever meant to have no opportunity of salvation. Even Judas could have been redeemed had he not killed himself.


Doug

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Yes I absolutely agree about Judas. Calvin’s theology has so many holes in it it’s not even funny and completely misrepresents God’s character and loving merciful nature.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes I absolutely agree about Judas. Calvin’s theology has so many holes in it it’s not even funny and completely misrepresents God’s character and loving merciful nature.

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I certainly agree with this! However, I have the same opinion about Arminianism as well. It misrepresents God's character and loving merciful nature.

How does it do that? By claiming that there is something that one of His children can do that will severe the relationship with God and this UN-child then is sent to hell.

Yeah, so much for God's "loving merciful nature".

The Bible uses familial words to describe God's relationship with believers. He is the Father, and believers are His children.

Yet, it is impossible for human parents to un-born their children. Once a child, Always a child. That's true physically and spiritually.

Not to mention that Arminianism cannot provide any verse that teaches in PLAIN WORDS that salvation can be lost.

If such a scenario were possible, it would have been made so clear that no Calvinist could refute that idea.

Instead, there are many verses that DO plainly teach in PLAIN WORDS that salvation cannot be lost. John 10:28 being the most clear.

The promise to believers of never perishing is based solely on what Jesus did. He gave believers eternal life. That is the basis for never perishing. John 10:28 says so VERY CLEARLY.

TibiasDad said:

Well certainly not in a systematic sense, but Augustine certainly sowed the foundational seeds of it in his debate with Pelagius in the 4th century. There were some hit and miss theologians that also attempted to build on Augustinian thought in later centuries, but Calvin is the one that really fleshed it out fully, and Beza, Calvin's successor, cemented it even more! Your are correct, however, that the teachings of the church fathers was overwhelmingly synergistic, including those taught directly by the Apostles.

As a side note, Augustine had been a part of a Gnostic like cult, "the Persian religion, Manichaeism, and later to Neoplatonism." Many of these Gnostic ideas were later brought to bear in his theological treatises.

Doug

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Augustine also openly admitted to making several mistakes in his early writings. The problem is he never actually clarified what those mistakes were. The thing is Augustine doesn’t have the authority to determine doctrines in the church. No one person has the authority to do that. These decisions must be considered by the body of Christ not an individual.

BNR32FAN said:

No one person has the authority to do that. These decisions must be considered by the body of Christ not an individual.

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All authority lies with Scripture itself. The fact that there is disagreement among evangelicals, and has been, since the "divines" in the 2nd Century, only shows that Satan is hard at work deceiving a whole lot of people.

My observation of things is that Arminians tend to misunderstand grace, and Calvinists are too focused on God's sovereignty, to the detriment of everything else.

Both grace and sovereignty are real. But neither theological system balances them out.

The failure to discern truth reveals failure of being filled with the Spirit. Most don't even know what that is. To many, it is just an emotional feeling. To others, the filling occurs by practicing the "spiritual disciplines", but they fail to realize that a believer can read Scripture while thinking of other things at the same time. I've been guilty of that myself. So just practicing the disciplines, such as reading the Bible, praying, etc, doesn't, by themselves, lead to the filling of the Spirit.

Only when considering that believers can and do grieve and quench the Spirit will believers have the discernment of what is required to actually be filled with the Spirit.

BNR32FAN said:

No I don’t believe Judas ever was a believer. I believe that is what John 6:64 is saying. We know that Judas shad also been stealing from the treasury.

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Do you believe God works with His people to transform them and deliver them from ungodly traits and habits, as they grow and mature in Christ?


I believe all twelve disciples believed and therefore followed Christ up until it was time for Him to be crucified.


Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ, and the other disciples.


Peter repented and returned to Christ, and was restored.


Judas did not. He hung himself.




JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

Why haven't you ever proved your claims? John 6:64 and 70,71 refute your claims.

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I have proven my claims from the scriptures, many times.


Your only defense is to deny what the scriptures so plainly say.

Those who are removed from Christ, no longer have eternal life.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Those who remain in Christ, have eternal life.


Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24




JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

So just practicing the disciplines, such as reading the Bible, praying, etc, doesn't, by themselves, lead to the filling of the Spirit.

Only when considering that believers can and do grieve and quench the Spirit will believers have the discernment of what is required to actually be filled with the Spirit.

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If satan fails at distracting and deceiving us from His free Grace......this is arguably the second most attacked and misunderstood doctrine. If we don't understand HOW to live the true Christian way of life........We don't glorify God.

And for our flesh.......We have to swallow a lot of pride if after 10,20,30 or 40 years of praying, being good and even pastoring a church .......we learn we had no clue how to be filled with the Spirit and walk in the Spirit.

JLB777 said:

Do you believe God works with His people to transform them and deliver them from ungodly traits and habits, as they grow and mature in Christ?

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Sure, those who grow and mature in Christ. But those who grieve and/or quench the Spirit aren't transformed in this life.

I believe all twelve disciples believed and therefore followed Christ up until it was time for Him to be crucified.

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The Bible says differently. John 6:64 and 70-71

Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ, and the other disciples.

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You have no evidence. Only your opinion.

Peter repented and returned to Christ, and was restored.

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That's correct. Fellowship was restored. Relationship was NEVER in jeopardy.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Why haven't you ever proved your claims? John 6:64 and 70,71 refute your claims.

JLB777 said:

I have proven my claims from the scriptures, many times.

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Your claims are also unproven.

Your only defense is to deny what the scriptures so plainly say.

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You are describing yourself. My defense is the truth, and the Bible plainly says what I claim

Those who are removed from Christ, no longer have eternal life.

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You've NEVER EVER proved your claim.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

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Your error is to apply this verse to NT believers who are sealed with the Holy Spirit, per Eph 1:13,14. When Jesus used the metaphor about branches, it was still OT times, and NO believer was sealed. So Jesus wasn't referring to being "removed from Christ".

btw, since you love to use that phrase, where in the Bible do you find it?

Those who remain in Christ, have eternal life.

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Actually, the Bible says those who bleieve have eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, 13.

Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

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These instructions refer to fellowship, not relationship. But you've demonstrated over and over that you don't understand the difference.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t disagree that some were never meant to be saved I disagree on the reason they were not meant to be saved. They weren’t saved because they chose not to believe and repent.

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You say "they chose not to believe and repent"
Jesus said the COULD NOT "see" or "understand'
LEST (do you understand the MEANING of that word?)
they "be converted" and their sins "be forgiven".

It was NOT POSSIBLE to be converted/forgiven =
they were NEVER MEANT (and could never) be saved.
You do not have to LIKE what Jesus said and you do not
have to ACCEPT what Jesus said... I am only showing
you WHAT Jesus taught.


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t disagree that some were never meant to be saved I disagree on the reason they were not meant to be saved. They weren’t saved because they chose not to believe and repent.

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Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Notice JESUS did not say "you chose not to believe"
He clearly said "YE ARE NOT MY SHEEP"

Jesus came to save HIS SHEEP and would lose NONE of them.
Therefore, they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
This is not difficult



Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

5thKingdom said:

You say "they chose not to believe and repent"
Jesus said the COULD NOT "see" or "understand'
LEST (do you understand the MEANING of that word?)
they "be converted" and their sins "be forgiven".

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Do you understand that "could not see/understand" does NOT mean "never meant to see/understand"?

When you voluntarily close your own eyes, can YOU see? Of course not. That's what Jesus was referring to.

It was NOT POSSIBLE to be converted/forgiven =
they were NEVER MEANT (and could never) be saved.

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There are NO verses that teach that anyone was "never meant to be saved".

In fact, a number of verses clearly teach otherwise.

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

These verses refute the notion that there are people who were never meant to be saved.

5thKingdom said:

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

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Please read John 10:9 about how to be saved. Voluntarily entering through Him.

Notice JESUS did not say "you chose not to believe"
He clearly said "YE ARE NOT MY SHEEP"

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Your attempt to force the verse to mean that only His sheep believe to be saved.

You've got it exatly backwards. People become His sheep by believing.

Jesus came to save HIS SHEEP and would lose NONE of them.

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Actually, the Bible says quite differently, if you are interested.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

Therefore, they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
This is not difficult

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Apparently it is for you.

TibiasDad said:

Read post #987

Doug

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#987
Doug:
Are you then saying that God predestined all but Adam?


Jim
I did not say GOD predestined anyone to be born DEAD.
I said it was the RESULT of Adam's sin.


Doug"
The words always and never are universal unless the context establishes a specific scope of applications. If all men after Adam are predestined to life or death by God.....


Jim
When you start with a false premise (God predestined all men)
then you can only END with a false conclusion. God did not
"predestine" all to be born dead... that was the RESULT
of Adam's sin.

Now... if you want to argue God "foreknew"... that is a
different issue, and I agree God "foreknew" Adam would rebel.


Doug:
To say that all men are born in sin is not to say that all men are thereby necessarily condemned and never meant to be saved.


Jim
To say all men are born spiritually DEAD does mean that.
A DEAD man cannot "decide" or "choose" to become
translated from Death to life...

Or, at least you have never shown any SCRIPTURE that says
DEAD men can "decide" to become ALIVE or that slaves to
Satan can "decide" to be free men (before regeneration)

If you have verses teaching DEAD men can decide
to become free men BEFORE regeneration...
I would LOVE to see that verse.

Jim

FreeGrace2 said:

You missed the issue. The claim attached to the above was that Jesus had claimed that some people were "not meant to be saved". But telling people that they are not His sheep isn't at all the same as "not meant to be saved". Telling people they aren't His sheep is the same as saying they aren't saved.

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Yes...
(1) Jesus came to save "His Sheep"
(2) If someone is NOT "His Sheep" he was NEVER MEANT
to be saved.

This is not difficult:
If someone lives and dies a Moslem... we an know that,
by the Providence of God, he was NEVER MEANT to be part
of "His Sheep".... because Jesus loses NONE of His Sheep.

Now... if you say you do not believe in the Providence of God
that is a different issue. I just ASSUME all "Christians" believe
in a Sovereign God.

First count: Jesus DID die for everyone.

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Then you are saying EVERYONE had their sins PAID
and nobody goes to hell... I understand the "universalist"
heresy. And you are entitled to believe it.

Since the Bible never says a sin must be paid TWICE,
all sins Jesus PAID are paid in full.

1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

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The CONTEXT of the passage is "our Savior".
That means ALL the saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and
destined to eternal life. It does NOT include any of the
unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan (children of Satan)
destined for the same fire as their father [Mat 25:41]

If you cannot understand the CONTEXT of a passage then
you cannot hope to understand the MEANING.

In a passsage where there are 3 'categories' of sheep:
1. His sheep - saved people
2. not His sheep - unsaved people
3. THE sheep - all the sheep

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No, there are the saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God and
destined to eternal life and the unsaved "tares/goats" sown
by Satan and (as children of Satan) destined for the same
FIRE prepared for Satan [Mat25:41]

You #3 (all the sheep) is the same as (#1) His sheep.

"THE sheep" must belong to Jesus or Satan and the Bible
NEVER says "the sheep" belong to Satan.

There are NO verses that state that Jesus died for His sheep.

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Yes there are

He did, but He also died for all the sheep, not just His.

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(1) You just said there were none... make up your mind
(2) What passage says Satan has "sheep"?

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

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Yes... He was the Good Shepherd for the wheat/sheep of
(1) Both Jew and Gentile and
(2) Those alive in 100AD and 500AD and 1000AD and 2000AD
This is not a difficult teaching.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

You've got NO verses that say that Jesus came to save "His sheep" only.

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Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


BTW.... if MAN decides the MAN is the author and God the finisher
Is that what the Bible teaches? If MAN decides... it's a "boaster
gospel"... since that was such a good decision.


Jim

FreeGrace2 said:

Please read John 10:9 about how to be saved. Voluntarily entering through Him.

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Please read Ephesians 2 carefully.
DEAD MEN do not "volunteer" for anything... they are DEAD

Your attempt to force the verse to mean that only His sheep believe to be saved.

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No "forcing" going on.... only the "wheat/sheep" sown by God
are destined for eternal life. None of the "tares/goats" sown
by Satan are going anywhere except the SAME FIRE prepared
for Satan and his demons (and those in his Kingdom)
Mat 25:41

People become His sheep by believing.

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No doubt about that... but ONLY those regenerated
can believe.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

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Exactly... all the "sheep" are born spiritually DEAD.
That is why they need to be "regenerated" (born again)
(indwelt) BEFORE they can repent or even SEE the
Kingdom of God.

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

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Exactly... we are ALL BORN spiritually DEAD and destined
to eternal hell. That is why we are so fortunate that God
"elected" who He wanted to save and provided a Savior
for those elect.

Jesus calls those people the saved "wheat/sheep"
Those not elected are called the unsaved "tares/goats"
OR those who do not even claim to be Christian.

I hope you do not believe Jesus PAID for the sins of
people who lived and died as Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus,
Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, Pagans and Satanists...
these people have no Savior.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism

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I do not argue for "Reformed theology"... only for Scripture.
And Scripture says Jesus came to save (wait for it....)
"His people" and "His sheep". Pretty simple.

That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

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No, that is a logical fallacy you are arguing.
ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD. Not just "His sheep"
but all those who are NOT "His sheep" as well.


Jim

FreeGrace2 said:

Do you understand that "could not see/understand" does NOT mean "never meant to see/understand"?

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No... I do not understand that "could not see/understand
really means CAN "see/understand". And I do not think
Jesus was LYING when He declared the "could not"...
(do you understand what "lest" means?)

There are NO verses that teach that anyone was "never meant to be saved".

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Not only are there MANY verses that teach MOST MEN
were NEVER MEANT to be saved there are also many verses
that teach MOST MEN are not going to be saved.... and verses
that say Jesus loses NONE of "His sheep".

You do understand the meaning of NONE don't you.
It means that EVERY MAN that was MEANT to be saved is saved.
This is not a difficult concept.

These verses refute the notion that there are people who were never meant to be saved.

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Not at all. You only show that you cannot discern the CONTEXT
of those verses... therefore you have no hope of ever understanding
the MEANING of those verses.

Again... let me make this very SIMPLE for you:
ALL MEN Jesus came to save ARE saved... He loses NONE.
Is that simple enough? It is not a difficult concept.


Jim