If moderate drinking isn't sinful...

ReesePiece23 said:

Straffe Hendrik is the king - especially the quad. And I can happily have a swift half of that now and leave it. And I'm glad too, I don't miss the booze hunger. Being able to enjoy something for what it is should be the goal for everyone. I wouldn't mind if it were 0%. As long as the maltiness is there.

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Just checked, we have the quadruple ale.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

dqhall said:

According to Paul it is permissible to abstain from drinking wine or eating meat.

Romans 14:2 (WEB) It is good to not eat meat, drink wine, nor do anything by which your brother stumbles, is offended, or is made weak.

Scientific studies have determined both alcohol and red meat are carcinogens. Excessive cholesterol intake has been linked to cardiovascular disease.

Alcohol abuse is a leading cause of early onset dementia/senility.

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I

There are good reasons to abstain from both, yes.

Kilk1 said:

1. How do we explain 1 Peter 4:3's condemnation of "drinking parties" (NKJV; Greek, "potos"), which R. C. Trench said is "not of necessity excessive ... but giving opportunity for excess"? Does the condemnation of potos preclude moderate drinking?

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No, for a couple of reasons.
1. That argument doesn't explain why Jesus turned water into high-quality wine (John 2:1-11), or why Paul advised Timothy to drink a little wine (1 Tim 5:23).
2. Lots of parties were for people of a given trade, which involved idolatry to the Roman god of that trade. If those were the same parties that Peter was referring to, there was more than just alcoholic consumption that was wrong with them.

Kilk1 said:

2. If we shouldn't even look at wine when it's red and swirling around smoothly (Proverbs 23:31), then how can we drink it?

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Jesus and his apostles drank wine at the Last Supper at minimum, and that Passover would not have been their first Passover. Outside of the Passover, Jesus was accused of being a "glutton and a drunkard" (Matt 11:19, Luke 7:34) - not that he was either, but he ate where the wine was flowing at minimum, and he even said he came drinking, so I believe that he drank, though not to excess.

Proverbs 23:31 has a context, let's look at it in context:

29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaints? Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?
30 Those who linger over wine, who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights, and your mind will imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas, lying on top of the rigging.
35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt! They beat me, but I don’t feel it! When will I wake up so I can find another drink?”

Verse 29, talks about the consequences of drunkeness, and verses 30-31 talk about how people got there. To "linger over wine" is to not control your intake. The behavior in verses 29 and 32-35 did not describe Jesus or his disciples during his ministry, and so whatever the trap of verses 30-31 is, they probably didn't fall into it. Yet, they drank wine. Therefore, drinking in moderation is possible, and for those of us that drink, it is necessary.

Kilk1 said:

3. Is it true that one glass of modern wine would be equivalent to 11 glasses of Bible wine? (That's a claim I've heard from a preacher before.) If so, wouldn't even a single modern glass be excessive from a biblical standpoint?

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Depends on the wine. In the Roman world, there were multiple grades of wine, some stronger than others. Soldiers for example, would have access to less alcoholic wine than the strongest out there. Romans would also cut wine with water.

I’m not a religious person, but I have done some college OT and NT study. Several NT passages condemn drunkeness, but I’m not aware of any scriptural command to totally abstain from alcohol. One of my professors said it’s purely a doctrine of some Protestant denominations. (Also some non-Christian religions, like Islam and Buddhism.) He believed it arose as a product of antipathy to Catholicism. Wine is a traditional part of the Catholic Eucharist. And alcohol is frequently consumed at Catholic celebrations. Rejection of any alcohol use was adopted by certain Protestants as a way to completely separate themselves from the RCC. I’d not heard this idea before, and I haven’t heard it since. Anyone think my professor was correct?

Kilk1 said:

1. How do we explain 1 Peter 4:3's condemnation of "drinking parties" (NKJV; Greek, "potos"), which R. C. Trench said is "not of necessity excessive ... but giving opportunity for excess"? Does the condemnation of potos preclude moderate drinking?

2. If we shouldn't even look at wine when it's red and swirling around smoothly (Proverbs 23:31), then how can we drink it?

3. Is it true that one glass of modern wine would be equivalent to 11 glasses of Bible wine? (That's a claim I've heard from a preacher before.) If so, wouldn't even a single modern glass be excessive from a biblical standpoint?

These are the strongest arguments I've been taught against moderate/social drinking. I've been raised on these arguments to believe that all recreational use of alcohol is inherently sinful. However, as explained on my last thread, I've since heard arguments favoring the moderate use of alcohol, and now I'm doubting my old presuppositions. If the three arguments above can be overcome, I think I'll change my mind. Thanks!

Note: If your post ignores my questions above, I may ignore your post. While the discussion doesn't have to be limited to the questions, make sure they're included in your reply.

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The command to answer as you require or responses may be ignored is offputting, just FYI.

Your first question is answered by the totality of scripture, not just the 1 Peter verse, which clearly says that because you (listeners, disciples) have done enough of this pagan carousing in the past, put it away.
Elsewhere:
Gen 27:29
Now may God give you of the dew of heaven,
And of the fatness of the earth,
And an abundance of grain and new wine;

(There are probably a couple dozens scriptures neutrally or positively mentioning wine which I won't bother to include).

Deut 14:26: You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding of Cana.

Then in a number of scriptures in the gospel, of course, wine represents the Blood that Jesus is about to sacrifice for us, and there, of course, it is a must.

Second question: You have to read the passage in context. Verse 16 indicates that you should not overdo it:
Listen, my son, and be wise,

and guide your heart on the right course. 20Do not join those who drink too much wine

or gorge themselves on meat. 21For the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty,

and drowsiness will clothe them in rags.

Proverbs 23: 29-35 answer to whom the instruction applies:

Who has woe? Who has sorrow?

Who has contentions? Who has complaints?

Who has needless wounds? Who has bloodshot eyes? 30Those who linger over wine,

who go to taste mixed drinks. 31Do not gaze at wine while it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup

and goes down smoothly. 32In the end it bites like a snake

and stings like a viper. 33Your eyes will see strange things,

and your mind will utter perversities. 34You will be like one sleeping on the high seas

or lying on the top of a mast:

35“They struck me, but I feel no pain!

They beat me, but I did not know it!

When can I wake up

to search for another drink?”

Clearly, if one is prone to "linger over wine", run. There exist those individuals who can have a single glass with a dinner and then walk away, not needing more, not lingering or caring. These are not those who are being instructed, just as Jesus didn't give the instruction to "sell all you have and follow me" to everyone, but to the rich young ruler. That was his idolatry. Others have different areas.

Third Question re: one glass of modern wine being equivalent to 11 glasses. Never heard this one before. Got a source for that? The only people forbidden to drink alcohol in scripture are the Nazarites.

Clearly people in Bible times could get drunk on wine because in Acts 2, Peter tells the crowd that "these men are not drunk as you suppose". It's hard to imagine people would or could routinely consume dozens of glasses to get drunk, so I'm skeptical of that pastor's claim and would like to see something authoritative.

I contend that scripture does not support the view that alcohol consumption is sinful on its face. However, it is sin for YOU if you believe it to be sin, according to Romans 14.

Romans 14 answers the question:
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.a 2For one person has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes a special day does so to the Lord;b he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone, and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

As for me, I did have a problem where I went from wanting it to needing it, so I haven't had a drink in 27 years and spouse voluntarily joined me, because "we are one". I have a very honorable spouse. I always say I will have it new again in the Kingdom with Jesus (when He says He will have more).

But this is for me. I don't have problems or restrictions in some areas in which it may be wise for YOU to impose them. We have to do what the Lord leads us to do.

Judging from the Gospels and the life displayed by the incarnation of God among men in Jesus Christ, and coupled with other scriptures it seems likely that fine rich foods, and at least wine and ale, (not sure about distilled spirits as they don't seem to have been in use in 1st century Judea. I'm guessing the same principles would apply), are actually gifts of God. Goods intended both medicinally, and as an adjunct to joyous occasions such as weddings and feasts. When scripture is taken as a whole rather than proof texted as we are all tempted towards, wine and good food have always been with man in both the pagan and the Judeo Christian world. In my exegesis, it seems that "drunkenness" or being a "drunkard" are likely akin to our modern concepts of alcoholism. More of a chronic state than the sharing of joyous occasions or the soothing of occasional pain. In short, a time and place for everything under the sun. We are fallen, and we have a tendency towards sin. If living an innocent life, however, and eating and drinking in joy, AND to the glory of God, then there shouldn't be any problem with drinking and feasting in celebration of genuine goods from God. It is in our nature, and all things that God has created are good. It is what our fallen nature does with the goods that bring sin. If you have an unholy attachment to food, drink, or anything else, and the goods aren't used in a gracious way, then perhaps abstinence may be the only way one could live their life, and remain in good grace. But more people than not, can eat and drink, (with gratitude to God), without becoming idolatrous of intoxicants or intoxication.

Ecclesiastes 3:10 I contemplate the task that God gives mankind to labour at.

3:11 All that he does is apt for its time; but though he has permitted man to consider time in its wholeness, man cannot comprehend the work of God from beginning to end.

3:12 I know there is no happiness for man except in pleasure and enjoyment while he lives.

3:13 And when man eats and drinks and finds happiness in his work, this is a gift from God.

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As to alcoholic content of ancient wine, it seems to vary based on scripture, leading me to believe it could be anything from light to quite strong.

John 2:9 They did this; the steward tasted the water, and it had turned into wine. Having no idea where it came from – only the servants who had drawn the water knew – the steward called the bridegroom

2:10 and said; ‘People generally serve the best wine first, and keep the cheaper sort till the guests have had plenty to drink; but you have kept the best wine till now’.

God bless

durangodawood said:

And a glass of wine doesnt get you drunk now.

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That is right!
Wine is not there to get drunk with.
Wine is there that you may enjoy its taste.

Red Gold said:

That is right!
Wine is not there to get drunk with.
Wine is there that you may enjoy its taste.

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I think its also there for the effect of the alcohol, in moderation. Thats why it was traditionally associated with celebrations.

jayem said:

I’m not a religious person, but I have done some college OT and NT study. Several NT passages condemn drunkeness, but I’m not aware of any scriptural command to totally abstain from alcohol. One of my professors said it’s purely a doctrine of some Protestant denominations. (Also some non-Christian religions, like Islam and Buddhism.) He believed it arose as a product of antipathy to Catholicism. Wine is a traditional part of the Catholic Eucharist. And alcohol is frequently consumed at Catholic celebrations. Rejection of any alcohol use was adopted by certain Protestants as a way to completely separate themselves from the RCC. I’d not heard this idea before, and I haven’t heard it since. Anyone think my professor was correct?

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I don't think its true. The avoidance of alcohol comes from the Holiness/Pietist traditions, and was unrelated to Catholicism.

FireDragon76 said:

I don't think its true. The avoidance of alcohol comes from the Holiness/Pietist traditions, and was unrelated to Catholicism.

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It didn't originate as an anti-Catholic sentiment, but given the 19th century American Protestant disposition toward Catholicism, the fact that "Catholics drink alcohol" likely would have become one of those "things Catholics do that is wrong".

I've seen some old timey Fundamentalists get their undies in a twist because Catholics follow the traditional practice of fasting on Friday. I'm pretty sure I recall one of those Jack Chick types even trying to connect eating fish on fast days with ancient Phoenician Dagon worship. It gets objectively silly really fast.

-CryptoLutheran

Kilk1 said:

If moderate drinking isn't sinful...
How do we explain...

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By observing that those passages might well have not been intended to say otherwise

Let me ask you a few questions first. Then I will get to yours.

If any of the preachers and teachers in this world who vehemently teach against any alcohol at all were accused by an outside group of being a drunkard, what would the people who knew them say? What would they say? Are you a part of that group? If I accuse you of being a drunkard, what would you say? Can you get drunk on grape juice? How did people in Jesus day get drunk on wine if it had the content you are claiming?

Mat 11:18 "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'

Did John drink any wine? Answer: He took a Nazarite vow and never touched anything even related to grapes. Does Jesus contradict their claims of what John the Baptist did? No. He questions their conclusions. Why? Their goal was to discredit John, and thus his teachings.

Now the religious leaders and experts had a different set of claims for Jesus in order to discredit Him.
Mat 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

Now if Jesus wasn't drinking the same wine that the people of the day drank, and if it wasn't the wine you can get drunk on, the claims of the religious leaders would be ludicrous and the people of the day would have laughed at them and everything they were speaking against Jesus would have been discredited.

BUT did Jesus laugh in their faces and say, you know full well that I have never touched the wine that will get a person drunk in my life. You lie and everyone knows it. No, Just like He did with John the Baptist, he states that they are accurately seeing what Jesus was doing, i.e. eating and drinking without the restrictions the religious people of the day put on things but was never drunk, nor was he a glutton. Extreme in the views of the religious people but only with the restrictions God put on things.

Jesus admits that He came eating and drinking real wine that people did get drunk on, without the excess rules and regulations the religious leaders had ... just the restrictions God has. Thus the claims that Jesus was a glutton and a drunkard. Jesus doesn't deny what they were seeing ... just their conclusions.

Also, even the communion wine was the kind you could get drunk on if taken to excess:

1Co 11:20 Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, 21 for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.

If you are going to say that those going hungry did so a result of people showing up early and eating all all the bread, you must also state that the being drunk was a result of drinking all the wine. Both are directly related to the showing up early and eating and drinking everything.

1. How do we explain 1 Peter 4:3's condemnation of "drinking parties" (NKJV; Greek, "potos"), which R. C. Trench said is "not of necessity excessive ... but giving opportunity for excess"? Does the condemnation of potos preclude moderate drinking?

Let's take a look at this shall we:

1Pe 4:3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

These are taken as a group not separated not really separated in behavior, but a lifestyle. If you are going to a party only for drinking, which is the wording the word translated drinking parties is derived from the same word Jesus claimed of himself, i.e. the Son of Man came both eating and "drinking" ... It is a drinking bout. A party for the purpose of everyone getting soused together. And you are correct, Jesus would have nothing at all to do with a "drinking party/frat party"

2. If we shouldn't even look at wine when it's red and swirling around smoothly (Proverbs 23:31), then how can we drink it?

Context is essential. Let's look at all the uses of wine in the passage:

Pro 23:20 Do not be with heavy drinkers of wine, Or with gluttonous eaters of meat; 21 For the heavy drinker and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe one with rags... 29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? 30 Those who linger long over wine, Those who go to taste mixed wine. 31 Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it goes down smoothly; 32 At the last it bites like a serpent And stings like a viper. 33 Your eyes will see strange things And your mind will utter perverse things.

So yes, if you are drinking to the point where you are delirious seeing things and your mind is corrupted you are a bit soused. Also, this is a passage on habitual drinking/getting drunk or verse 32 wouldn't be there. Those who linger long over wine ...

3. Is it true that one glass of modern wine would be equivalent to 11 glasses of Bible wine? (That's a claim I've heard from a preacher before.) If so, wouldn't even a single modern glass be excessive from a biblical standpoint?

Then why the admonition, "Do not be drunk with wine." Any Jew would laugh at you, as would any vintner. It is the alcohol content that keeps the grapes from spoiling. Without that it grows mold

These are the strongest arguments I've been taught against moderate/social drinking.

Just avoid the frat parties ... 1Pet 4:3 pretty much describes them in great detail.

I've been raised on these arguments to believe that all recreational use of alcohol is inherently sinful. However, as explained on my last thread, I've since heard arguments favoring the moderate use of alcohol, and now I'm doubting my old presuppositions. If the three arguments above can be overcome, I think I'll change my mind. Thanks!

Funny. Many religious people in our churches observing Jesus would have had the same claims of him that the religious leaders of Jesus day had.

Mat_11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

If Jesus is unacceptable in your church or your ministry and would be excluded for the same reasons the lost Jews sought to discredit Jesus ministry then, are you really Christian or are you just Pharisees?

No, I don't drink to excess.

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. 6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Yes, when I am hurting I may have a glass or two of whisky. Yes, I may have a glass or two of wine. Jesus had only one restriction. The restriction of scripture. Do not be drunk with anything. His standard is mine. I refuse to teach as doctrines the precepts of men. And no, Jesus was not worried about His witness or the Jews wouldn't have been able to make those claims the self-righteous were making.