Tripartite division of the Law and the Sabbath?

clefty · Oct 2, 2020

Bob S said:
Absolutely not.

wow...so ummm...Sabbath made you that MAD? I mean they claim "the OT is NOT FOR ME"...something about Body of Christ...but NOT following its Head...

Jesus is the vine and I am a branch on that vine. Jesus is the root of the Olive tree and all who accept Him are grafted into the life giving root.

so even in according to biological Law the grafted branch must bear MORE similar fruit to the trunk and NOT less...you can't be of another family/genome for a graft to be successful...

and once grafted you do NOT sustain it...but it you...

Paul was clear a New Creation was JOINED between Jew and Greek...and what Yah has joined let no man separate right? Just like "He the groom and Israel the bride"

I mean already when THIS ekklesia Israel was in the wilderness at Sinai to receive what poor Stephen called the Living Oracles Acts 7:38 it was full of those NOT of Jacob...and they were adopted and received the Promise...because they all said "I DO"...

1 Corinthians 10:3...They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body-whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

In fact the Sabbath Living Oracle is the ONLY one of the 10 to include them "these strangers within thy gates"...the IRONY...maybe that is WHY Yahushua made clear it was made for Man and not just Jews...

Better yet, why don't you share with us the ones you try to keep.

well certainly those I already listed but since you deflected...I guess you do NOT?

I mean after what He did for me to SAVE AND justify me and put His yoke on me to show me HOW TO LIVE...and TO PLEASE HIM...

oh and He bought me...I am His not my own...and am promised to go back to "where I AM there ye may be also"...OF COURSE I try to keep as many as I can...try...cuz that is EXACTLY what I will WANT to do for eternity...all this is just practice for then when we are restored to HIM and will live His Way as we did before this detour of sin...that is the point right?

I mean I love to play tennis but NOT with someone who wishes to keep the LEAST amount of rules...ya dig? "Do we HAVE to hit it over the net? Boo Hoo"

At least try...lol

SabbathBlessings · Oct 2, 2020

clefty said:
wow...so ummm...Sabbath made you that MAD? I mean they claim "the OT is NOT FOR ME"...something about Body of Christ...but NOT following its Head...

so even in according to biological Law the grafted branch must bear MORE similar fruit to the trunk and NOT less...you can't be of another family/genome for a graft to be successful...

and once grafted you do NOT sustain it...but it you...

Paul was clear a New Creation was JOINED between Jew and Greek...and what Yah has joined let no man separate right? Just like "He the groom and Israel the bride"

I mean already when THIS ekklesia Israel was in the wilderness at Sinai to receive what poor Stephen called the Living Oracles Acts 7:38 it was full of those NOT of Jacob...and they were adopted and received the Promise...because they all said "I DO"...

1 Corinthians 10:3...They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body-whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free-and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

In fact the Sabbath Living Oracle is the ONLY one of the 10 to include them "these strangers within thy gates"...the IRONY...maybe that is WHY Yahushua made clear it was made for Man and not just Jews...

well certainly those I already listed but since you deflected...I guess you do NOT?

I mean after what He did for me to SAVE AND justify me and put His yoke on me to show me HOW TO LIVE...and TO PLEASE HIM...

oh and He bought me...I am His not my own...and am promised to go back to "where I AM there ye may be also"...OF COURSE I try to keep as many as I can...try...cuz that is EXACTLY what I will WANT to do for eternity...all this is just practice for then when we are restored to HIM and will live His Way as we did before this detour of sin...that is the point right?

I mean I love to play tennis but NOT with someone who wishes to keep the LEAST amount of rules...ya dig? "Do we HAVE to hit it over the net? Boo Hoo"

At least try...lol

Bob S · Oct 2, 2020

clefty said:
wow...so ummm...Sabbath made you that MAD? I mean they claim "the OT is NOT FOR ME"...something about Body of Christ...but NOT following its Head...

I am not here to try to defend something I never indicated.

so even in according to biological Law the grafted branch must bear MORE similar fruit to the trunk and NOT less...you can't be of another family/genome for a graft to be successful...

So, of what are you accusing me. Do you know my life?

and once grafted you do NOT sustain it...but it you...

Who indicated that I said I sustained it? What in the world are you trying to prove? I am asking myself why I even bothered answering any of your post.

Studyman · Oct 2, 2020

Bob S said:
Absolutely not. Jesus is the vine and I am a branch on that vine. Jesus is the root of the Olive tree and all who accept Him are grafted into the life giving root.

Better yet, why don't you share with us the ones you try to keep.

Yes, all who "accept HIM". But who is HE? Is HE not the Creator God of the OT? Is HE not the same Christ "many" religious Jews rejected?

Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his (God's) goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Paul is still promoting an "IF" covenant even all these years after Jesus ascended.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit (God's Goodness) he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

If we bear Fruit unto God and the fruit is Rebellion, disobedience, indifference, disrespect, dishonor, these are all fruits which have been shown as not acceptable to God.

But "IF" we bear fruit unto God and the fruit is submission to His Righteousness, obedience, self denial, repentant spirit, humility, these are acceptable fruits..

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

How can we know what fruits are acceptable if the Christ doesn't show us? Did HE not walk in the "Way of the Lord"? Shall we not also strive to walk even as HE walked?

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. (God's Righteousness of course)

Many Jews were cut off the Holy Tree, they were cut off because of their unbelief as Paul points out several times.. Not Caleb, Gideon, Zacharias, REhab and all the other examples of true Faith in the Christ. These men "wholly" followed the Lord. But as it is written "with many of them God was not well pleased".

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And without Righteousness, that is God's Righteousness, we shall not enter the Kingdom of God. Not my words, but Christ inspired Words of Paul and the Christ Himself.

1 Cor. 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

And again;

Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

The Christ taught this both as the God of the OT and as the Prophesied Messiah.

Duet. 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.

25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

But the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus' time didn't believe this, just as the Mainstream Preachers of our time don't believe this.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus warns us of these fraudsters who don't believe Moses and the prophets.

Matt. 24:4, And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The Christ teaches that whosoever believes in HIM, shall be saved from the Wrath of God.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

And HE wants us to "come to Him", that is, the Christ of the Bible.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, (The Word of God who became Flesh) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

And again as the Prophesied Messiah

Matt. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Same Christ, Same Yoke and Same unbelief.

Jer. 6: 16, But they said, We will not walk therein.

As it is to this day.

Soyeong · Oct 3, 2020

Bob S said:
The real problem with your belief is that you refuse to recognize the fact that all of those laws were a bundle and given only to one nation, Israel. The other thing you will not recognize is that bundle of laws was the words of the Sinai covenant again given to one nation. That covenant was an "IF" covenant Ex 19:5-6 and it was not a salvational covenant like the one all mankind is under today. Israel failed at every attempt God gave then to keep the covenant. Therefore the covenant was abolished. Tell me this Soyeong, why would Jesus have to abolish something the Israelites had already abolished? Jesus didn't come to abolish something that had already been abolished. Since the covenant's words were the Law they too would be abolished.

I fully recognize the fact that all of the Mosaic laws were a bundle and given only to Israel and that the Mosaic Covenant was only made with Israel. However, that does not mean that the Mosaic laws were only intended to be obeyed by Israel. Israel was given the Mosaic Law in order to equip them to be a light and a blessing to the nations, so there is no point in people from the nations rejecting the light of God's word and the blessing that comes with it it because it was given to Israel for the purpose of teaching it to them rather than being directly given to them. Jesus was an Israelite who set a sinless example of of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than than what he practiced, and following Jesus is not just for Israel, but the nations too.

The way to act in accordance with God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant or group of people, and God's nature is eternal, which means that the way to express His nature has existed from the beginning before God made any covenants with man, and is therefore not specific to any particular covenant or group of people. So a set of eternal instructions for how to express God's nature is distinct from a covenant agreement that uses those instructions as stipulations.

A suzerain vassal covenant is usually where a stronger king/benefactor/suzerain would make a treaty with a weaker king/vassal in order to make clear requirements for how the vassal would serve the suzerain. The Mosaic Covenant was a suzerain vassal covenant, which contains several parts. The preamble that identifies the author of the covenant (Exodus 12:1, Deuteronomy 1:1-5). The historical prologue mentions the past relationship between the two parties with the actions that the suzerain taking on behalf of the vassal being the basis gratitude and future obedience (Exodus 20:2, Deuteronomy 1:6-4:49). The stipulations are obligations places on the vassal (Exodus 21-31, Deuteronomy 5-26). The deposition is a copy of the covenant being placed in the vassals sanctuary (Exodus 25:16, Deuteronomy 31:9, 24-26). The public reading where the terms are periodically read to the people (Exodus 24:7, Deuteronomy 31:10-13). The witnesses (Exodus 24:8, Deuteronomy 30:19, 31:19, 32:1-42). The curses for the vassal breaking the covenant (Leviticus 26:14-33, Deuteronomy 27, 28:15-68). The blessings for the vassal keeping the covenant (Leviticus 26:3-13, Deuteronomy 28:1-14).

In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so people under the Mosaic Covenant were saved by in the same manner as we are. There were good kings and there were evil kings, so it is blatantly false that Israel failed every attempt that God gave them to keep the law. In Matthew 5:17, Jesus specifically said that he came not to abolish the Law and the Prophets so saying that he did is calling him a liar. A covenant that contains among its parts God's instructions for how to express His nature can become abolished, but that doesn't mean that God or His those instructions became abolished along with it. A covenant agreement can come and go, but those instructions will always remain the way to express God's nature.

The word "forever" is used many times in scripture. David seriously thought the laws He lived under would never end. He must have not realized that the covenant laws would come to an end because the covenant was an "IF" covenant. Also, there are other examples of the use of forever in the Old Testament that ended.

If you persist in believing that the Laws God gave only to Israel are binding today because they are eternal then you had better bone up on the other 603 laws that pertain to the lay person.

Do you think that David was wrong? Why do you think that David would say that all of God's righteous laws are eternal if he thought that Israel failed at every attempt God gave then to keep the covenant?

Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature can't be abolished without first abolishing God, so there is no room for any of God's eternal laws to ever be abolished. In Romans 3:31, Paul specifically said that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, yet you seek to abolish the God Israel and His law instead of upholding Him by faith. I agree that that the Hebrew word can either refer to forever or to a very long period of time, however, I do not see any reason to think that the God of Israel or His nature only exists for a very long period of time. Even if God had never made any covenants with man, then we would still be obligated to act in accordance with God's nature and it would still be sinful to act against His nature, so your problem is that you're hung up on who the Mosaic Covenant was made with while rejecting what it teaches us about the eternal nature of the One who gave it.

clefty · Oct 3, 2020

Bob S said:
I am not here to try to defend something I never indicated.

your repeated and sustained rejection of Sabbath ...with even claims it is only for Israel despite His clarification it is made for man and not just Jews...had me ask if it made you MAD...

Mid Acts Dispensationalists ALSO claim it is NOT for them...or that they are NOT Israel

So, of what are you accusing me. Do you know my life?

I judge fruit...by which we shall know...

and those who claim to abide in Him should live as He did...ask John...

you however claim to be grafted in and yet do NOT produce fruit MORE similar to His...but only 9/10ths similar... and to do so you steal worship from Him 8/10ths teach others to do so by false witness 7/10ths adulterating His way 6/10ths having created an IDOL 5/10ths to a god who does NOT have an eternal Law 4/10ths...

Yup yours don’t much look like the fruit the root and trunk are producing judging you with the other branches NOT cut off by their unbelief...

Who indicated that I said I sustained it? What in the world are you trying to prove? I am asking myself why I even bothered answering any of your post.

Many claim they are NOT to live or love JUST AS He did but insist on some variation to it something close to what He taught and demonstrated...as if the branch grafted in could change the root and trunk...its times and laws...

I have yet to meet a Christian claiming they were allowed to:

Worship another god
Make an image worship it
Blaspheme His name
Dishonor parents
Kill
Commit Adultery
Steal
Lie
Covet

But as soon as I ask about the seventh day Sabbath then its suddenly “AWW HELL NAWW...that’ s OT and NOT FOR ME...just for Jews ...been abolished...we are under grace...rest EVERY day...you’re a legalist and Judaizer...”

Despite it being the ONLY commandment specifically including those NOT of Jacob...the irony...

Paul was clear that the Gentiles were formerly strangers foreigner but NOW in Him citizens of Israel...and despite what might be demonstrated in our modern secular age new citizens WANT to adopt the Laws of the country which adopted them...it sustains them they do not change it...or squat as free loaders claiming “them rules NOT FOR ME”

His kingdom is NOT a two class apartheid state...

nor is He married to two wives...one faithful and obedient to Him His Ways while the other claims “NOT FOR ME”

But ONE wife who is loved and sustained by Him His Way...she is His helpmate...carries His Name...wears His Yoke...establishes His Way...to go into ALL nations teaching them to observe ALL “I have commanded you to do”...

That WHOSOEVER believes might be there where I AM ye may be also...in His lawFULL kingdom...

HalleluYah

Ignore me if you wish...but you did seem pretty ready to talk about your views...

Studyman · Oct 3, 2020

clefty said:
your repeated and sustained rejection of Sabbath ...with even claims it is only for Israel despite His clarification it is made for man and not just Jews...had me ask if it made you MAD...

Mid Acts Dispensationalists ALSO claim it is NOT for them...or that they are NOT Israel

I judge fruit...by which we shall know...

and those who claim to abide in Him should live as He did...ask John...

you however claim to be grafted in and yet do NOT produce fruit MORE similar to His...but only 9/10ths similar... and to do so you steal worship from Him 8/10ths teach others to do so by false witness 7/10ths adulterating His way 6/10ths having created an IDOL 5/10ths to a god who does NOT have an eternal Law 4/10ths...

Yup yours don’t much look like the fruit the root and trunk are producing judging you with the other branches NOT cut off by their unbelief...

Many claim they are NOT to live or love JUST AS He did but insist on some variation to it something close to what He taught and demonstrated...as if the branch grafted in could change the root and trunk...its times and laws...

I have yet to meet a Christian claiming they were allowed to:

Worship another god
Make an image worship it
Blaspheme His name
Dishonor parents
Kill
Commit Adultery
Steal
Lie
Covet

But as soon as I ask about the seventh day Sabbath then its suddenly “AWW HELL NAWW...that’ s OT...just for Jews ...been abolished...we are under grace...rest EVERY day...you’re a legalist and Judaizer...”

Despite it being the ONLY commandment specifically including those NOT of Jacob...the irony...

Ignore me if you wish...but you did seem pretty ready to talk about your views...

It is fascinating to be sure.

EX. 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

One test Commandment. Not "Love thy Neighbor as thyself", not "Love the Lord your God with all your might", NO, God created and chose this one Commandment to test them whether they would submit to HIS Righteousness, or their own.

But the self proclaimed religious philosophers of today preach to the world that this "test" was only given to the Jews. But the Word of God exposes this falsehood as well.

IS. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

But the great modern theologians preach to the world, "this was only for the OT times, we are in the New covenant.

But the Word's of the Holy Christ expose this doctrine as from below and not from above as well.

Is. 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And again;

Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (Including HIS 4th Commandment) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God has given us this Feast of the Christ for our benefit.

Ez. 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, (Sin and deception) and brought them into the wilderness. (A place they had never been)

11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, (Jew and Stranger) that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

But they refuse to "Walk" in them, choosing instead to create their own Path, a broad path with their own Judgments. A Path with no Sabbath from God.

13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.

And this same Christ, in HIS infinite Mercy, had all this written down specifically for our Examples, our admonition, so we wouldn't lust after those things they lusted after.

1 Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (WHY???)

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

The rejection of God's Sabbaths and Laws by those who "Come in His Name" is one of the most amazing things I have witnessed in my journey from Egypt (Sin)

It reminds me of that Meat Loaf song.

"I will do anything for Love, but i won't do that!!!"

Bob S · Oct 3, 2020

After reading your posts my thoughts about them go from some very good reasoning to personal attack. If one has in her/his interbeing preconceived beliefs that to be a justified or sanctified Christian one must be observant especially to the weekly Sabbath then I certainly see the reasoning you have put together from the verses of scripture you used. I dare say that you have not considered any of my postings as being reasonable due to my preconceived beliefs.

Below is what I believe is very sound reasoning, but do to your beliefs will probably be culled and mocked by some. I would hope not, but from most all the posts I have read it seems reasonable that the following, too, will not bear any fruit.

From Should Christians keep the Old Testament feasts?

"Baruch Maoz, an Israeli pastor of Jewish extraction, doesn’t believe it is wrong for Christians of Jewish cultural background to keep the feasts. At the same time, he explains why Gentile Christians shouldn’t observe the Old Testament feasts or other aspects of Old Testament ritual—they have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. They are the “shadow”; He is the reality."

(Paul would fall under that cultural background, but Paul didn't ever try to convince Gentiles of the need to be observant to any of the ritual laws including the ritual weekly Sabbath.) Bob's observation

"The Mosaic Law in its moral aspects has lost none of its commanding authority. The moral aspects of the covenant are now the rule of life for all those who live by grace. That is one of the reasons why the English Puritans and the Scottish Covenanters identified so warmly with our forefathers. While they longed and prayed for the salvation of our people and our restoration to grace, they knew themselves to be bound to our destiny by the common duties they shared with us as promulgated in the Mosaic Law.

Messiah and the Law

Of course, the ritual aspects of the Law, its symbols, hopes and expectations, all find fulfillment in Jesus. Having been fulfilled, they no longer have the religious value they had in the past yet, for us Jewish Christians, they form part of our national culture. The shadows have passed to give room for the reality, and it is not right for us to insist upon those shadows as if they were still in force.

Wow! I couldn't have said it better to all of you. We are not under the ritual laws of the Mosaic covenant.

The Mosaic religious institutions, including the sacrifices; the feasts; the specific form of the Sabbath duties; and the restrictions and requirements in terms of dress codes, beards and the such like, are no longer binding. Nor may we exercise our liberty by living as if they were binding. It is our glad and happy duty to demonstrate by our lives, our worship and our communal behaviour that Messiah has come.

The ritual aspects of the Law, particularly the sacrifices, intimated God’s method of salvation, but salvation itself was never provided by it except as it reflected the sacrifice of Messiah. It was not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats could provide a sufficient sacrifice (Heb. 10:4). The promise of forgiveness made in the Torah was dependent on the sacrifice of Messiah and derived its strength from that ultimate sacrifice.

To act now as if Messiah came but did not affect our relation to the Law is—as I said before—to deny with our lives what our mouths profess. To think that the coming of Messiah did not alter the Mosaic Law’s relation to us is to ignore the biblical message, which declares that the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth were realized through Jesus the Messiah (John 1:17). Whatever else we may want to say about this passage, there is no doubt that it contrasts two periods—that of the Mosaic Law with that of Jesus, the Messiah" (Judaism Is Not Jewish, pp.127-28).

Jesus has set Israel free from the laws Paul called the letter that kills and the ministration of death. Gentiles were never in bondage to all of those ritual laws that Israel failed to keep. I live by the ministration of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that guides us into a righteous relationship with Jesus.

Bob S · Oct 3, 2020

clefty said:
your repeated and sustained rejection of Sabbath ...with even claims it is only for Israel despite His clarification it is made for man and not just Jews...had me ask if it made you MAD...

Why would even question my state of mind? Your intent was not really a question, it was more of a statement of discredit as was most of the remainder of your post.

Your tactic to put me on the defensive is noted. WWJD?

Studyman · Oct 3, 2020

Bob S said:
After reading your posts my thoughts about them go from some very good reasoning to personal attack. If one has in her/his interbeing preconceived beliefs that to be a justified or sanctified Christian one must be observant especially to the weekly Sabbath then I certainly see the reasoning you have put together from the verses of scripture you used. I dare say that you have not considered any of my postings as being reasonable do to my preconceived beliefs.

I did have preconceived beliefs for sure. I believed I should be able to run my own life as I please. That I can do whatever "I SEE" as appropriate or righteous. But when I started reading the Holy Scriptures, I found that these "preconceived" ideals actually killed me. I learned, and then believed, that my Creator actually knows what is best for me, and that "IF" I want to go where HE is, I must "deny myself" and follow Him.

There is no other way if the God of the Bible is considered truth. As Paul himself teaches both Jews and Gentiles.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (Both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

The teaching that God has different Gospels from men of different DNA is popular, but is not what the Holy Scriptures teach, as Paul clearly shows us above.

At first I just joined a religious franchise, just as you did for 40 years, who claimed HIM as their Lord. (Not SDA, but her sister, Baptists) But the more they preached, the more I found their preaching to be contrary to the Holy Scriptures HE had written for my admonition. Much the same way you discovered that many of the doctrines promoted by SDA is also contrary to scriptures.

As a result, I stopped listening to all the other voices out there, and trusted the Word of God alone to direct my footsteps. 30 years now in study apart from any religious franchise, or religious theologians, all of which claim they know the truth, and all who preach a different truth.

What I found is the God of the Bible can actually direct me without the need of a Levite Priest, or any preacher in the New Covenant, as promised. He has already given us the preachers, and HE Himself is the High Priest. For me to search the internet in order to find a preacher who can confirm a "preconceived" religious philosophy I have come to believe, although very common among religious men, seems very dangerous and demeaning to the Christ who has already told us to "come to Him".

This is why I trust and post HIS Inspired Word's alone. And also the reason why I post on this forum the perspective of a no-body like me who trusts what is written over the other voice in the garden. And long for the discussion, not to justify this religious franchise or that religious philosophy. But to examine the Holy Scriptures so we are "not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of our mind, that we may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Below is what I believe is very sound reasoning, but do to your beliefs will probably be culled and mocked by some. I would hope not, but from most all the posts I have read it seems reasonable that the following, too, will not bear any fruit.

From Should Christians keep the Old Testament feasts?

Do you mean, "should Christians obey the God of the Bible"? That question seems kind of out of place given all the times the God of the Bible said to "obey Him". But let's talk about it anyway.

Why would we rely on some random religious philosopher to answer such an important question? Especially after Jesus warns of religious men over and over.

It seems the Christ of the Bible is fully capable of answering this question in the Holy Scriptures HE gave us.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

"throughly furnished"???? Am I to believe I can not trust in them alone?

Do we have any information regarding the first "Christian Church" where the Feast's of the Christ are concerned?

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Well is sure seems the first Church after the death and resurrection of Jesus still found it necessary to "Keep the Feast", and it appears God was pleased with their work.

What of the men who didn't believe "Christians" should "keep the Feast"? Were they also given the Holy Spirit? Or do we believe Peter.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

So a man might preach, based on their preconceived views of God's Commandments, that the Feast's of the Christ are only for Jews and Peter was the minister of the Jews. Paul was sent to the Gentiles. So what does Paul say about the Feast's of the Christ. Well in addition to his instruction for Gentiles to repent (From something) and "Turn to God", (presumably the God of the Bible) he also instructed gentiles to do this?

1 Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

These were all written after the Christ ascended to His Father All I am saying is shouldn't we place our trust in the ONLY ONE who can save us? Shall we not adhere to HIS Instructions, even if the entire religious body of the world refuses to do so? Shall we not consider the story of Caleb which was written specifically for our admonition?

"Baruch Maoz, an Israeli pastor of Jewish extraction, doesn’t believe it is wrong for Christians of Jewish cultural background to keep the feasts. At the same time, he explains why Gentile Christians shouldn’t observe the Old Testament feasts or other aspects of Old Testament ritual—they have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. They are the “shadow”; He is the reality."

(Paul would fall under that cultural background, but Paul didn't ever try to convince Gentiles of the need to be observant to any of the ritual laws including the ritual weekly Sabbath.) Bob's observation

I'm sure Mr. Maoz, like Gameliel and Pink, and Calvin and the Priests of Constantine all believed what they taught. I'm sure the Shepherds who led God's People astray also truly believed their doctrines and traditions of men. But none of these men died for me. They can not save me from my sins, and they can not raise me from the dead. So I feel it is incumbent upon myself to get my answers from the source of the Gospel. What did the Christ inspire Paul to say about men where days are concerned.

Rom. 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Is Paul going to make men follow instructions they don't understand, or is their submission to God a voluntary humility?? Can Paul save these men, or are they to have a personal relationship with the Christ? Are these men to follow Paul? Or are they to be fully convinced to "turn to God" of their own free will?

There is only ONE Lawgiver. Let each man be fully persuaded in their own mind.

Did Paul allow the mainstream preachers of his time, or any religious philosopher, to judge him or the Gentiles Faithful to God, in their voluntary humility to God? NO!!!

Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

These are shadows of things yet to be fulfilled by the Christ, don't let any man judge you in your obedience to the God of the Bible.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

I am glad you escaped SDA Bob. Like all religions, they have some truth, but also some things which are not truth.

You don't need SDA or a Levite Priest, or a religious franchise to hear the Word of God. We are in the New Covenant, Jesus is now our High Priest. Lets place our Faith in HIM and HIS Words which are Spirit and Life.

BobRyan · Oct 3, 2020

Studyman said:
At first I just joined a religious franchise, just as you did for 40 years, who claimed HIM as their Lord. (Not SDA, but her sister, Baptists) But the more they preached, the more I found their preaching to be contrary to the Holy Scriptures HE had written for my admonition. .

Baptists have a lot of doctrine that is grounded in scripture - their doctrine is stronger some areas and weaker in others when compared to the Bible. And also there are many different flavors of Baptist doctrine.

Studyman · Oct 3, 2020

BobRyan said:
Baptists have a lot of doctrine that is grounded in scripture - their doctrine is stronger some areas and weaker in others when compared to the Bible. And also there are many different flavors of Baptist doctrine.

My friend, SDA also have a lot of doctrine that is grounded in Scripture, so do the Catholics, so did the Pharisees. But they all have one thing in Common, by their religious traditions they transgress the Commandments of God.

In contrast, the early believers held so such traditions. They were faithful in the Feasts of the Christ, His Sabbaths, His Commandments, His Judgments. In my view the whole temples made of wood and stone, and preachers on the pulpit are just the furthering of the Levitical Priesthood the Jews couldn't let go.

It is my sincere hope that you might consider the Christ's Own Words regarding HIS Own New Covenant.

After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

And guess what, anyone on the planet who wants to hear the Word of God, has it available to them, in their language, in their homes, on the Web, is most stores.

I know this is a tough pill to swallow. But consider this question.

In the entire New Testament, where is it written that the Body of Christ was to lay away moneys to build a temple made of wood and stone?

It's not there. So why do religious men do it then? Where does this tradition come from?

clefty · Oct 4, 2020

Studyman said:
It is fascinating to be sure.

EX. 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

One test Commandment. Not "Love thy Neighbor as thyself", not "Love the Lord your God with all your might", NO, God created and chose this one Commandment to test them whether they would submit to HIS Righteousness, or their own.

But the self proclaimed religious philosophers of today preach to the world that this "test" was only given to the Jews. But the Word of God exposes this falsehood as well.

IS. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

But the great modern theologians preach to the world, "this was only for the OT times, we are in the New covenant.

But the Word's of the Holy Christ expose this doctrine as from below and not from above as well.

Is. 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And again;

Jer. 31: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law (Including HIS 4th Commandment) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God has given us this Feast of the Christ for our benefit.

Ez. 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, (Sin and deception) and brought them into the wilderness. (A place they had never been)

11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, (Jew and Stranger) that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

But they refuse to "Walk" in them, choosing instead to create their own Path, a broad path with their own Judgments. A Path with no Sabbath from God.

13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.

And this same Christ, in HIS infinite Mercy, had all this written down specifically for our Examples, our admonition, so we wouldn't lust after those things they lusted after.

1 Cor. 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (WHY???)

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

The rejection of God's Sabbaths and Laws by those who "Come in His Name" is one of the most amazing things I have witnessed in my journey from Egypt (Sin)

It reminds me of that Meat Loaf song.

"I will do anything for Love, but i won't do that!!!"

lol...Meatloaf...”where’s da beef?”

Yes yes good stuff yours here...

It is amazing the energy and effort and creativity utilized to reject A DAY OFF...

As if our Creator did NOT install DEFAULT FACTORY SETTINGS...

I mean who wouldnt want to work for an employer that gives THAT MANY DAYS OFF...in a world of constant work?

“But I rest EVERY day”...yeah I have had roommates with that attitude...

As if we are NOT to live now as we will when restored...

Oh well...again good work above

Hope you are rested and refreshed...

Might we all partake of the hidden manna...a trophy to a game His still play...

HalleluYah

clefty · Oct 4, 2020

Bob S said:
Why would even question my state of mind?

actually an appeal to your heart...questioning its status...the state of your mind seems fine clever consistent and resolute enough...

but is your heart circumcised?

I read your other posts and you seem certain all the OT was done away with

and your rejection of being His people Israel being absolute I genuinely wondered if you were MAD...as they claim as you do...

Your intent was not really a question, it was more of a statement of discredit as was most of the remainder of your post.

discredit? not you..your message

You mean address your response to Him His Ways

again...your heart...how deep is it’s rebellion of His Ways...

Again...I read your prior posts and well...am curious

Your tactic to put me on the defensive is noted.

lol... tactic? Again...you seem game enough for it...

we are to defend our views yes? I mean you do yes? Or not used to that?

represent Him His ways?

Go and make disciples...you know...into a faith discipline to discere ‘learn’; to discern be a discipulus...teach them to observe ALL things I have commanded you...

WWJD?

hmmm...NOT serve Ham dinners after Sunday power hour worship that’s fershur

clefty · Oct 4, 2020

Bob S said:
After reading your posts my thoughts about them go from some very good reasoning to personal attack. If one has in her/his interbeing preconceived beliefs that to be a justified or sanctified Christian one must be observant especially to the weekly Sabbath

you miss that the Sabbath does NOT justify or sanctify

NO WORKS DO...as that is by FAITH IN HIM...

but now having been justified and sanctified by HIM we NOW keep the Law as His people...He bought us...we are IN HIM and of course living as He did...thus fulfilling the Law as He did...

From Should Christians keep the Old Testament feasts?

"Baruch Maoz, an Israeli pastor of Jewish extraction, doesn’t believe it is wrong for Christians of Jewish cultural background to keep the feasts. At the same time, he explains why Gentile Christians shouldn’t observe the Old Testament feasts or other aspects of Old Testament ritual—they have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

fulfill meaning destroyed right?

Matthew 3:15 V-ANA
GRK: ἐστὶν ἡμῖν πληρῶσαι πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην
NAS: it is fitting for us to fulfill all
KJV: us to fulfil all
INT: it is to us to fulfill all righteousness

Does he mean that Yahushua and the Baptizer are conspiring to destroy righteousness?

Matthew 5:17 V-ANA
GRK: καταλῦσαι ἀλλὰ πληρῶσαι
NAS: to abolish but to fulfill.
KJV: to destroy, but to fulfil.
INT: to abolish but to fulfill [them]

No no Yahushua is lying...He did destroy them...

Romans 15:13 V-AOA-3S
GRK: τῆς ἐλπίδος πληρώσαι ὑμᾶς πάσης
NAS: of hope fill you with all
KJV: the God of hope fill you with all
INT: of hope may fill you with all

Does he mean Paul wished Yah destroy them with joy and peace?

Colossians 1:25 V-ANA
GRK: εἰς ὑμᾶς πληρῶσαι τὸν λόγον
NAS: on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the [preaching of] the word
KJV: for you, to fulfil the word of God;
INT: toward you to complete the word

Does he mean Paul was a minister to destroy the Word?

They are the “shadow”;

yes ARE present tense BECAUSE they are still binding as still pointing to good things to come...

“He is the reality."

yes to still do good things in the future...

(Paul would fall under that cultural background, but Paul didn't ever try to convince Gentiles of the need to be observant to any of the ritual laws including the ritual weekly Sabbath.) Bob's observation

4 things were immediately required of gentiles coming into the synagogues

3 of which were diet related to keep clean meats clean and already found for Gentiles to keep in the OT

Sabbath was a 10 commandment Law NOT a ritual ceremonial law AND James concluded gentiles would still hear Moses every Sabbath Acts 15:21 if they did the 4 other things

Or does Baruch mean to say Gentiles were NOT to keep the 10 Laws but when visiting synagogues they were allowed to:
worship another god
make images to worship
blaspheme His name
Dishonor parents
Kill
Steal
Lie
Covet

Notice I left out commit adultery and seventh day Sabbaths because it was CONCLUDED those 2 would STILL continue

"The Mosaic Law in its moral aspects has lost none of its commanding authority. The moral aspects of the covenant are now the rule of life for all those who live by grace.

good...thanks please sit down...

That is one of the reasons why the English Puritans and the Scottish Covenanters identified so warmly with our forefathers. While they longed and prayed for the salvation of our people and our restoration to grace, they knew themselves to be bound to our destiny by the common duties they shared with us as promulgated in the Mosaic Law.

duh...yes it is called the reformation...away from Rome’s way and back to His Way...but alas only partially...on both counts

Messiah and [strike]the [/strike] His Law

Of course, the ritual aspects of the Law, its symbols, hopes and expectations, all find fulfillment in Jesus.

right and what?

One driver fulfills the traffic laws...does that suspend them for the driver behind him? LOL

A citizen fulfilled the law of his land yesterday...so today he no longer needs to?

A baker fulfills the recipe NEVER again bread?

Having been fulfilled, they no longer have the religious value they had in the past yet, for us Jewish Christians, they form part of our national culture.

was given to Israel ALREADY full of those NOT of Jacob...not just Jews...

The shadows have passed to give room for the reality, and it is not right for us to insist upon those shadows as if they were still in force.

shadows take up space? Can’t fit anything inside a shadow? LOL

Paul is clear they ARE and still pointing to good things still to come...

Wow! I couldn't have said it better to all of you.

well...having read your posts I expected better from you actually...alas...

We are not under the ritual laws of the Mosaic covenant.

again...Sabbath is NOT a ritual but given BEFORE rituals and ceremonies and cleansing were even necessary and to ALL men...not just Jews...but to Israel...

The Mosaic religious institutions, including the sacrifices; the feasts; the specific form of the Sabbath duties; and the restrictions and requirements in terms of dress codes, beards and the such like, are no longer binding.

all of which were added long after Sabbath was instituted...for ALL man...you know FACTORY DEFAULT SETTINGS...when man was created in His Image to rest when He did...

Nor may we exercise our liberty by living as if they were binding.

of course we are...we are to ESTABLISH LAW you know Christ’s Law the ones He gave Us at Sinai those LIVING ORACLES...and for others to be led to Him by our lifestyle and teaching...to live as He did as well...HAVING BEEN SAVED

Yup the Law of liberty and BECAUSE we fulfill it IN HIM...no longer UNDER IT as cursed to its consequences a condemnation...a ministry of second death...if INDEED we abide IN HIM and thus LIVE AS HE LIVED...

It is our glad and happy duty to demonstrate by our lives, our worship and our communal behaviour that Messiah has come.

How? by NOT keeping the 10 commandments by NOT having the faith OF Yahushua His faith lifestyle?

Or by loving and living JUST AS He would...thus fulfilling the Law...you know ACTUALLY answering WWJD? = WJWD...lol

The ritual aspects of the Law, particularly the sacrifices, intimated God’s method of salvation, but salvation itself was never provided by it except as it reflected the sacrifice of Messiah. It was not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats could provide a sufficient sacrifice (Heb. 10:4). The promise of forgiveness made in the Torah was dependent on the sacrifice of Messiah and derived its strength from that ultimate sacrifice.

YUP NONE OF IT JUSTIFIED SANCTIFIED OR MADE PERFECT...we are only made righteous BY HIM and then we do AS HE DID...

Yahushua was the goal Greek “TELOS” the aim...the endzone of the ENTIRE OT...

To act now as if Messiah came but did not affect our relation to the Law is—as I said before—to deny with our lives what our mouths profess.

and now with our lips we offer sacrifices bull’s blood could not please Him with...

To think that the coming of Messiah did not alter the Mosaic Law’s relation to us is to ignore the biblical message, which declares that the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth were realized through Jesus the Messiah (John 1:17).

grace was that Sabbath was even given BEFORE it was needed...Adam DID NOTHING to receive his first day off undeservedly...just like the Second Adam rested in the tomb the first full day of the New Covenant Age and rose on it refreshed...Sabbath HEALS...RESTORES...is why it is GRACE received by His People who accept it...

Whatever else we may want to say about this passage, there is no doubt that it contrasts two periods—that of the Mosaic Law with that of Jesus, the Messiah" (Judaism Is Not Jewish, pp.127-28).

Poor Baruch still peddling that Jewish myth and false witness that “Yahushua changed the customs Moses delivered” Acts 6:13-14

How far he has fallen from David’s “Thy Law is a delight” and Paul’s “Thank Yah I through Yahushua with my mind can serve the Law of Yah” and His instructions “If you love me keep My commandments” John’s “they are NOT burdensome” concluding

Here are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith OF Yahushua...what faith was that? Buddhism? Muslim? Hindu? Catholic? Protestant?

No wonder our cities burn as millions were taught “we are free” free to loot the promise from the Law which enshrines our rights to adoption and inheritance that His cross quaranteed for us IF we have faith AND DO His ways...WHOSOEVER BELIEVES

Instead riots against perceived privileges and cries to “DEFUND THE PHARISEES” lol

Yes the age of lawlessness...led by the father of lies who also claims His ways are “NOT FOR ME!!”

Jesus has set Israel free from the laws

Jewish FALSE WITNESS

Paul called the letter that kills and the ministration of death.

oh my...so is state law IF YOU BREAK IT...

So is my marriage if I break our covenant...lol

You think I married her to fall in love with her? Or because we already were in love and committed

Do you think our love and faith MAKE VOID that “I DO” covenant? Certainly NOT! but we establish it...

Does your love and faith of this country MAKE VOID its laws?

Gentiles were never in bondage to all of those ritual laws that Israel failed to keep.

AGAIN Sabbath was for MAN...NOT a ritual but grace given before rituals were even needed...or Jews...lol

And already at Sinai Israel was full of those NOT OF JACOB...Remember the Sabbath? THE ONLY COMMANDMENT to include the strangers within thy gates?

One Law for Native and Foreigner THE SAME...

And Acts 15 specifically listed OT Laws for New Covenant gentiles to be grafted into joined with become adopted Israel...the rest of Moses they would hear every Sabbath...

I live by the ministration of the Holy Spirit.

oh dear dear follower of Baruch his Jewish False Witness...which of His Laws does He not administrate for us? Which of these as priests do we not minister?

It is the Holy Spirit that guides us into a righteous relationship with Jesus.

what is the standard of this righteous relationship? But what He gave us at Sinai His living oracles...

He guides us right INTO LIVING AND LOVING JUST AS HE DID...thus fulfilling the Law...and representing Him...Who has an Eternal Unchanging Law...

and to be restored again to that lifestyle FACTORY DEFAULT SETTING which we were to live in His Image BEFORE this detour of sin...you know when Sabbath and Marriage were instituted...before sin...and Jews...

clefty · Oct 4, 2020

Here is a good study of Acts which helps clarify what was happening that first century when the church was known as “the Way”

When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the OT Laws?

Historically Rome saw this sect as a superstitious Jewish one...not because it was celebrating on Sunday or eating Ham...

Also why Romans were exceedingly troubled by these Jews teaching them customs NOT lawful for Romans to receive or observe...Acts 16:20-21

Would Romans be troubled to “just love on everybody” or eat Ham?

SabbathBlessings · Oct 4, 2020

LoveGodsWord · Oct 4, 2020

clefty said:
Here is a good study of Acts which helps clarify what was happening that first century when the church was known as “the Way”

When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the OT Laws?

Historically Rome saw this sect as a superstitious Jewish one...not because it was celebrating on Sunday or eating Ham...

Also why Romans were exceedingly troubled by these Jews teaching them customs NOT lawful for Romans to receive or observe...Acts 16:20-21

Would Romans be troubled to “just love on everybody” or eat Ham?

I like many things in the article above Clefty, thanks for sharing it. I believe many of the old testament laws are still in effect including the health and hygiene laws, and all of the sub-laws of the 10 commandments of the old covenant that are not "shadow laws" of the new covenant for "remission of sins", that point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation and ministration in the new covenant and Christ work in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands *Hebrews 9:24. These "shadow laws" of the old covenant are all the laws that were prophetic in nature that pointed "forward" to the coming of the promised "Messiah" (JESUS) foretelling his life, death and resurrection and work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary on our behalf and are fulfilled in him. They were in effect "shadows of things to come" that Paul talks about in *Colossians 2;. Ephesians 2; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10. There shadow laws of the old covenant pointed forward to the promised Messiah and pointed to things to come and are fulfilled in Christ. As these laws where prophetic given to teach God's people of the work and coming of promised Messiah, they were the shadows fulfilled in JESUS as they pointed to him as the true lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. The Sanctuary on earth was only a copy of the one in heaven that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2-5. These are now fulfilled in the new covenant after the coming of Jesus. The "shadow laws" of the old covenant helped God's people to look forward to things to come. While today God's people look backwards to things that have come.

God bless and thanks for sharing.

clefty · Oct 4, 2020

LoveGodsWord said:
I like many things in the article above Clefty, thanks for sharing it.

good good...yes I found it to be a good quick concise summary of that critical point in the history of this church..

I believe many of the old testament laws are still in effect including the health and hygiene laws,

HalleluYah yes I am aware that SDAs even “eat clean”

and all of the sub-laws

yes reading the “613” I laugh at how many we actually keep without realizing it...and how many are not even applicable...but the HORROR of having to keep them is palatable among Christians...lol...as if it is IMPOSSIBLE to NOT pass your child through fire for sacrifice...LOL

And as for circumcision of adult men...I have seen MORE pain endured for tattoos or other body modifications for merely fashion and attention seeking...

and there are those that do circumcise for medical/cleanliness reasons...but NO WAY for “biblical reasons”...lol...

NOT AN ENDORSEMENT FOR IT BTW just sayin’...

Commentin’ on the general state of aversion to Law in this age...LOOTING the Promise without the Law which enshrines our rights to adoption and its inheritance...without the Law its Promise His death guaranteed for us...

Rioting about “defund da pharisees” or something...lol

Can you blame these kids now a daze? Decades hearing from pulpit everywhere...”we are free...at liberty...just love”

of the 10 commandments of the old covenant that are not "shadow laws" of the new covenant for "remission of sins", that point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation and ministration in the new covenant and Christ work in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands *Hebrews 9:24.

yes I am aware that SDAs emphasize the tabernacle

As I have come to call it:

that “Divine Theatre” now playing: “OUR SALVATION”

but I find it odd they miss that this Inspired Opera has SHOWTIMES throughout the year which by celebrating them and Remembering these sabbaths TOO is critical vital and edifying to the understanding of His TIMES and Laws...

I mean embracing His diet but rejecting His calendar is ODD...

These "shadow laws" of the old covenant are all the laws that were prophetic in nature that pointed "forward" to the coming of the promised "Messiah" (JESUS) foretelling his life, death and resurrection and work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary on our behalf and are fulfilled in him. They were in effect "shadows of things to come" that Paul talks about in *Colossians 2;. Ephesians 2; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10. There shadow laws of the old covenant pointed forward to the promised Messiah and pointed to things to come and are fulfilled in Christ. As these laws where prophetic given to teach God's people of the work and coming of promised Messiah, they were the shadows fulfilled in JESUS as they pointed to him as the true lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

Passover is NOT a sin offering...does NOT take away the sins of the world...that is still to come...

please note that Paul wrote they ARE shadows pointing to good things go come...STILL...

Paul writes these in present tense even AFTER the death burial and resurrection and ascension of Yahushua...so there are STILL things that need to be pointed at...Festivals of Trumpets and Day of atONEment and Booths...

That last festival so critical as typical Christian eschatology NOW does NOT have us tabernacling (sukkot) in booths TEMPORARILY as our permanent home here on earth is desolate receiving its sabbath and being prepared as a NEW EARTH for us to come down to when the Holy City descends...

Most Christians have “End Times” as the Temple is rebuilt for Jews in Jerusalem and the Christians are raptured...and a 1000 year reich begins on earth...

The Sanctuary on earth was only a copy of the one in heaven that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2-5. These are now fulfilled in the new covenant after the coming of Jesus. The "shadow laws" of the old covenant helped God's people to look forward to things to come. While today God's people look backwards to things that have come.

again Paul wrote they “ARE shadows of things to come”...STILL...

For too long SDAs have perseverated over the fourth commandment neglecting the

3rd its Name

2nd making Idols

1st Only ONE Immortal...

Much work to be done yet....before the THIS everlasting gospel is spread by the 3 angels...

I pray there are workers...

God bless and thanks for sharing.

Thank you...and for reading...and this...lol

May He yet lead...

HalleluYah

LoveGodsWord · Oct 5, 2020

Hello clefty, thanks I agree with most of your post above. I wont dwell on this too much here as this is not the right thread but if you want to talk detailed scripture analysis of the old and new happy to discuss it with you further somewhere else or your welcome to PM me for a private chat. I will just leave you with a few comments here for your consideration.

LoveGodsWord said:
I believe many of the old testament laws are still in effect including the health and hygiene laws, and all of the sub-laws of the 10 commandments of the old covenant that are not "shadow laws" of the new covenant for "remission of sins", that point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation and ministration in the new covenant and Christ work in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands *Hebrews 9:24. These "shadow laws" of the old covenant are all the laws that were prophetic in nature that pointed "forward" to the coming of the promised "Messiah" (JESUS) foretelling his life, death and resurrection and work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary on our behalf and are fulfilled in him. They were in effect "shadows of things to come" that Paul talks about in *Colossians 2;. Ephesians 2; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10. There shadow laws of the old covenant pointed forward to the promised Messiah and pointed to things to come and are fulfilled in Christ. As these laws where prophetic given to teach God's people of the work and coming of promised Messiah, they were the shadows fulfilled in JESUS as they pointed to him as the true lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. The Sanctuary on earth was only a copy of the one in heaven that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:2-5. These are now fulfilled in the new covenant after the coming of Jesus. The "shadow laws" of the old covenant helped God's people to look forward to things to come. While today God's people look backwards to things that have come.

Your response here...

clefty said:
Passover is NOT a sin offering...does NOT take away the sins of the world...that is still to come...

Not sure why you wrote this because if you read the above that you are quoting from, I never posted or said that the Passover is a Sin offering. Though that said the Passover according to the scriptures in the new covenant as it is written "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." - 1 Corinthians 5:7 The sacrificial lamb of God has always represented JESUS *John 1:29; John 6:53.

clefty said:
please note that Paul wrote they ARE shadows pointing to good things go come...STILL...Paul writes these in present tense even AFTER the death burial and resurrection and ascension of Yahushua...so there are STILL things that need to be pointed at...Festivals of Trumpets and Day of atONEment and Booths...

If your talking about the shadow sabbaths in the feasts yes I partially agree as the Great day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) and Feast of Tabernacles (booths) are yet to be fulfilled until just prior to and after second coming. We believe that the Passover and Feast of unleavened bread is fulfilled in Christ *1 Corinthians 5:7; 1 John 1:29; John 6:35. Feast of first fruits to Christ resurrection and those that rose with Christ *1 Corinthians 15:20-23; Revelation 14:4; Luke 22:20; Feast of weeks *Matthew 9:37; Acts of the Apostles 14. Feast of trumpets is a little more complicated but can be shown in Danial, Revelation and Hebrews (happy to show how if interested somewhere else). We believe that the we are living in the anti-typical day of atonement and this can be proven from the scriptures. I have no problem with anyone still wanting to keep them as long as they understand their meaning and they are doing it to get close to JESUS which I think is great.

clefty said:
For too long SDAs have perseverated over the fourth commandment neglecting the
3rd its Name
2nd making Idols
1st Only ONE Immortal...
Much work to be done yet....before the THIS everlasting gospel is spread by the 3 angels...
I pray there are workers...

Well I do not know how you came to that idea as I do not think it is true. All of God's commandments are important, it is just that God's 4th has been neglected according to the scripture prophecies of Daniel 7:25 and the world needs to be warned *Revelation 14:6-12; Revelation 18:1-5. Like I said if you want to discuss anything in detail please feel free to PM me. Here is not the place as it is someone else's OP.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

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