The end of the age rapture

JacksBratt · Oct 1, 2020

Thomas White said:
I certainly agree with you. My point is that trying to figure out the day is pointless. We will not know until it happens.

That is true. We cannot know the day.

We can know the season however.

fli · Oct 1, 2020

JacksBratt said:
This is an argument that I hear often.

However:

1/ Israel had not been reborn, in their homeland and with their language
2/ They did not have the technology for the entire world to watch, in real time, the two witnesses.
3/ They did not have weaponry that can kill the entire population. Christ ends the wrath because, if He doesn't, all flesh would perish.
4/ The planing of the temple, the temple implements, the pure red heifer... all exist today and did not for almost 2000 years
5/ The gospel had not been preached to the entire world.
6/ They did not have the technology to mark and track the finances, in real time, of all the people of the world.

There are more. However, it is plain to see that even though they have been watching for 2000 years, never before have all of these things been real and obvious.

The bible says that the generation that sees the rebirth of Israel will not pass before all of the events in Revelation take place. That was 1948. People born in 1948 are 72 years old.. They are the generation that will not pass away..

So, we have every right to believe that it is coming soon.

I disagree on the date:

When someone uses some item to stand for something else you try to find if that person has used that item to represent before and it will mean the same thing again.

Luke 13:6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' 8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"NKJV

Jesus used a fig tree in the above parable to stand for something else. That fig tree was in the middle of the man's vineyard. Jesus used vineyard to be Israel in other places. So what does the fig tree in this parable substitute for.

Jesus had been going to the Temple for 3 years and He never got fruit from it. The position of Jerusalem in near the center of Israel and it was the center of worship. This is what Jesus said about the fig tree that He cursed.

Matt 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away. NKJV

From the scriptures above the Spirit said that it immediately withered away. The temple was just a pile of stones 3 days later , the priest were not priests anymore and animal sacrifices were usless. From the time Jesus cursed the temple no one, God or Man, got fruit from it nor will they Below is another scripture pertaining to the fig tree.

Mark 11:20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. NKJV

The temple, priesthood and animal sacrifices had its roots the first covenant. After Jesus died the temple was not God's residence anymore nor was it a temple.

In 1967 when the Israelis recaptured Jerusalem the Priest were ready to tear down the dome of the rock and rebuild the temple. I believe that was the fig tree putting forth green leaves.

So if the fig tree that Jesus referred in the parable of Matthew 24:32 is the temple, priesthood and animal sacrificial system then I believe that the 1967 that generation is the one that will not pass away.

Ps 90:10 The days of our lives are seventy years; And if by reason of strength they are eighty years, NKJV

Then we might have 80years from 1967 plus or minus.

JacksBratt · Oct 1, 2020

fli said:
I disagree on the date:

When someone uses some item to stand for something else you try to find if that person has used that item to represent before and it will mean the same thing again.

Luke 13:6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' 8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"NKJV

Jesus used a fig tree in the above parable to stand for something else. That fig tree was in the middle of the man's vineyard. Jesus used vineyard to be Israel in other places. So what does the fig tree in this parable substitute for.

Jesus had been going to the Temple for 3 years and He never got fruit from it. The position of Jerusalem in near the center of Israel and it was the center of worship. This is what Jesus said about the fig tree that He cursed.

Matt 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, "Let no fruit grow on you ever again." Immediately the fig tree withered away. NKJV

From the scriptures above the Spirit said that it immediately withered away. The temple was just a pile of stones 3 days later , the priest were not priests anymore and animal sacrifices were usless. From the time Jesus cursed the temple no one, God or Man, got fruit from it nor will they Below is another scripture pertaining to the fig tree.

Mark 11:20 Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. NKJV

The temple, priesthood and animal sacrifices had its roots the first covenant. After Jesus died the temple was not God's residence anymore nor was it a temple.

In 1967 when the Israelis recaptured Jerusalem the Priest were ready to tear down the dome of the rock and rebuild the temple. I believe that was the fig tree putting forth green leaves.

So if the fig tree that Jesus referred in the parable of Matthew 24:32 is the temple, priesthood and animal sacrificial system then I believe that the 1967 that generation is the one that will not pass away.

Ps 90:10 The days of our lives are seventy years; And if by reason of strength they are eighty years, NKJV

Then we might have 80years from 1967 plus or minus.

Well, if you are right... Remember that a generation in biblical times.. was 70 years.

Either way.. Even though people have been stating that they are in the last days... We have far more to support the belief that we are.

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2020

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

G1074
γενεά
genea
Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (a presumed derivative of) G1085
Citing in TDNT: 1:662, 114

I think in context Jesus is not talking about a generation of time but a generation of living people who will witness all the events he spoke about from people coming in the name of Christ and deceiving to the second coming. Those events happen in the same time frame that parts of Revelation covers which is the great tribulation and the second coming. It's not a long generation like 40-70 years but Revelation gives 42 months for the great trib then the second coming happens which isn't a long event either. That's basically 3 and a half years for one generation of people to witness all the end times events related to the great trib and second coming.

Timtofly · Oct 2, 2020

JacksBratt said:
This is one of those verses.. not unlike "Money is the root of all evil" that is misquoted often.

Money is not the root of all evil.. The "love" of money is.

The verse is not "Absent from the body is present with the Lord".

He says they are willing to be absent from the body AND TO BE present with the Lord.

Don't worry, many get this wrong.

I do believe, however, that when we die.. we are in paradise. I think that these people will return to be reunited with their recovered and instantly changed earthly bodies... and meet with Christ in the air.. upon the time of the Rapture.

2 Corinthians 5:8
King James Version

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

No, it is the Christian way to look at physical death. We do not die physically, do we? We are literally changed in death, not placed into death. If we are only placed into death, then Jesus Christ did not die for us. Death in Christ is the resurrection. We do not have to wait, because Christ was already resurrected, and we are resurrected in Christ. Paradise was opened at the Cross. We are not waiting for the Second Coming for Paradise to be opened. Those in Paradise and those alive at the Second Coming will get their glorified bodies.

In the 5th seal those are not souls seen in graves. They also have incorruptible bodies. The OT believers were given incorruptible bodies at the Cross. They ascended to Paradise when Jesus presented them to God and they were placed under the alter as the firstfruits of the Atonement. Not glorified but changed. Those in Christ are the same, death is no more a reality. This incorruptible body is what Adam had before the fall, but it died and he was given a corruptible body. Paul explains this body, but it is not something those dead in Christ are waiting for in a future event. Paul thought he would be alive and changed. Was he wrong in thinking that? He did not write it as one being dead, but alive. The interpretation hinges on dying, not waiting for "a resurrection". That is why he says the living will not prevent those "dead" to be changed. The dead in Christ rise first, and physical death is when they are changed in "death" from a corruptible to an incorruptible body.

The OT believers had to wait in death, and were all resurrected because the Cross was the point of Christ freeing them from death. Some interpret that resurrection as not happening until the GWT. They are not in sheol or death or whatever you want to call Abraham's bosom any more. It was not Paradise, because Paradise was banned until the Atonement on the Cross was applied and corruption of death and decay was turned into incorruption. Thus the corruptible body was then immediately changed into an incorruptible body. But it does not happen to the living. It happens to those willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

ewq1938 · Oct 2, 2020

Timtofly said:
We do not die physically, do we?

Yes humans die physically. No one is resurrected when they die either.

Timtofly · Oct 2, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

G1074
γενεά
genea
Thayer Definition:
1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (a presumed derivative of) G1085
Citing in TDNT: 1:662, 114

I think in context Jesus is not talking about a generation of time but a generation of living people who will witness all the events he spoke about from people coming in the name of Christ and deceiving to the second coming. Those events happen in the same time frame that parts of Revelation covers which is the great tribulation and the second coming. It's not a long generation like 40-70 years but Revelation gives 42 months for the great trib then the second coming happens which isn't a long event either. That's basically 3 and a half years for one generation of people to witness all the end times events related to the great trib and second coming.

There were two people at the birth of Christ who were seemingly the last of their generation still alive to see the birth of Jesus. But what triggered that generation to be the one may be a mystery. I think that it means any one alive who witnessed the 1948 birth of the nation of Israel, may still be living if only two are still alive. They could live to be 120, but that would put it as far off as 2068. I doubt it is that long, but that is the gist of the symbolism of that generation not passing. Not that there is a 40 or 20 year generation gap. I mean today there could be a new generation in some families every 16 years.

Timtofly · Oct 2, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Yes humans die physically. No one is resurrected when they die either.

I guess you will know when it happens the truth.

Even those lost who die know the truth. They are no longer decieved by Satan and false teachings.

JacksBratt · Oct 2, 2020

Timtofly said:
No, it is the Christian way to look at physical death. We do not die physically, do we? We are literally changed in death, not placed into death. If we are only placed into death, then Jesus Christ did not die for us. Death in Christ is the resurrection. We do not have to wait, because Christ was already resurrected, and we are resurrected in Christ. Paradise was opened at the Cross. We are not waiting for the Second Coming for Paradise to be opened. Those in Paradise and those alive at the Second Coming will get their glorified bodies.

In the 5th seal those are not souls seen in graves. They also have incorruptible bodies. The OT believers were given incorruptible bodies at the Cross. They ascended to Paradise when Jesus presented them to God and they were placed under the alter as the firstfruits of the Atonement. Not glorified but changed. Those in Christ are the same, death is no more a reality. This incorruptible body is what Adam had before the fall, but it died and he was given a corruptible body. Paul explains this body, but it is not something those dead in Christ are waiting for in a future event. Paul thought he would be alive and changed. Was he wrong in thinking that? He did not write it as one being dead, but alive. The interpretation hinges on dying, not waiting for "a resurrection". That is why he says the living will not prevent those "dead" to be changed. The dead in Christ rise first, and physical death is when they are changed in "death" from a corruptible to an incorruptible body.

The OT believers had to wait in death, and were all resurrected because the Cross was the point of Christ freeing them from death. Some interpret that resurrection as not happening until the GWT. They are not in sheol or death or whatever you want to call Abraham's bosom any more. It was not Paradise, because Paradise was banned until the Atonement on the Cross was applied and corruption of death and decay was turned into incorruption. Thus the corruptible body was then immediately changed into an incorruptible body. But it does not happen to the living. It happens to those willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

All I'm saying is that what you quoted.. is not what the verse actually says.

I agree that when we die, we go to be in paradise.. but what you quoted... is incorrect.

iamlamad · Oct 2, 2020

ewq1938 said:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

I disagree. You are mixing one gathering with another, different gathering that happens over 7 years apart. For timing on Paul's rapture we must go by what Paul tells us. In 1 Thes. 5, Paul is clear that HIS gathering will come JUST (moments) before the start of WRATH or before the start of the DAY of His wrath - or the start of the Day of the Lord - or the start of judgment.

In Revelation we find that at the 6th seal. That fits hand in glove with Revelation because the church age martyrs at the 5th seal were told they had to wait (for judgment) for the full number of martyrs to be killed as they were.

It also fits Revelation because John then SAW the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, as the large crowd too large to number.

Just so you know, the 70th week starts at the 7th seal and ends at the 7th vial, so the rapture is before the week. The gathering shown in Matthew 24 is not Paul's rapture; it gathers from heaven, but Paul's rapture gathers from earth. The bible then shows TWO gatherings for TWO different people groups separated in time by over 7 years.

This pretrib rapture also satisfies the scriptures saying we will not be in God's wrath. Since the entire week is His wrath, we won't be here for His entire week.

Pretrib also solves the problem posttribbers find, how in the world they will get to heaven to the marriage and supper that will take place in heaven before Christ comes to Armageddon.

Pretrib also explains the escape plan of Luke 21.

iamlamad · Oct 2, 2020

Douggg said:
If you are talking about in Revelation 6, beginning with the rider on the white horse - everything is future to us, but near future.

When that rider shows and given a crown, meaning either becoming the leader of the EU, or becoming the King of Israel the Antichrist - there will be 7 years left, and things get progressively worse until Jesus Returns.

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews who will go through the great tribulation.
Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians on how not to have to go through the great tribulation.

By the parable of the fig tree, Christians can know the season that the great tribulation will take place. And consequently the Rapture to avoid it. We are in the season.

If you are talking about in Revelation 6, beginning with the rider on the white horse - everything is future to us, but near future.

You should know by now, I disagree with that because that pulls the first seals out of their early church context. Chapter 5 comes before chapter 6, and is the context of the first seal. Chapter 5 shows Jesus ascension and Him sending the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD.

BABerean2 · Oct 2, 2020

iamlamad said:
I disagree. You are mixing one gathering with another, different gathering that happens over 7 years apart. For timing on Paul's rapture we must go by what Paul tells us. In 1 Thes. 5, Paul is clear that HIS gathering will come JUST (moments) before the start of WRATH or before the start of the DAY of His wrath - or the start of the Day of the Lord - or the start of judgment.

The timing of the gathering of the Church is found below.

.

fli · Oct 2, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Well, if you are right... Remember that a generation in biblical times.. was 70 years.

Either way.. Even though people have been stating that they are in the last days... We have far more to support the belief that we are.

Your right about 70 being a generation. I gave 80 in case they are healthy.

Rev 10:1 I saw still another mighty angel coming down from heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire. 2 He had a little book open in his hand. And he set his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars. When he cried out, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4 Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them." NKJV

What was it that God did not want us to know about the tribulation?

Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. NKJV

The same thing that He has kept hidden from everyone. If we knew the date the church would have slept until just prior to the time. Although John was told to seal up what was said by the seven thunders I believe that he was allowed to give some clues.

John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. NKJV

By all available evidence John wrote revelation prior to his gospel.

John wrote of a wedding on the third day. By God's reckoning we are in or close to the third day. If the crucifixion (AD 29) started the countdown we still have some time to go for the 3rd day. A day is 1000 years so it doesn't narrow it down much.

If the third day starts 2029 we have 9 years before the third day. If the Fig tree generation was born in 1967 and if a generation is 70 years then for them to see all that happens in Luke 21: 10- 28 where are we left? ( sure is a lot of ifs)

Luke 21:24 And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. NKJV

That will be fulfilled:
Rev 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."NKJV

About the time of the demise of the 2 witnesses.

iamlamad · Oct 2, 2020

Timtofly said:
You both are in error. The OT believers were resurrected at the Cross. Matthew 27.

More myth. I will only answer this:
many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Not all, only "many." There will probably be billions. It will also include those from before the flood.

Timtofly · Oct 3, 2020

iamlamad said:
More myth. I will only answer this:
many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Not all, only "many." There will probably be billions. It will also include those from before the flood.

Many in Jerusalem which was the place being referenced. None of the other Gospels mentioned it. If it happened in Jerusalem, why not all over the world? Why did only Matthew bother to add it in? Did Matthew just make it up, cover just Jerusalem, or was not permitted to proclaim, "all over the world"? Many claimed a resurrection had already happened. Was it a secret that was not to be explained, but Matthew let it slip? How did certain Gentiles think one had already happened? Why were many confused who were with Jesus, and even saw Lazarus raised from the dead? The Jews themselves were split on the resurrection of the dead. It seems Gentiles had no problems understanding, they just had the wrong resurrection, and they thought they missed it. Well sure, if one is not dead, they cannot be resurrected. If you think only some left Abraham's bosom, and the rest had to stay, does God only do things half way?

SeventyOne · Oct 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
Many in Jerusalem which was the place being referenced. None of the other Gospels mentioned it. If it happened in Jerusalem, why not all over the world? Why did only Matthew bother to add it in? Did Matthew just make it up, cover just Jerusalem, or was not permitted to proclaim, "all over the world"? Many claimed a resurrection had already happened. Was it a secret that was not to be explained, but Matthew let it slip? How did certain Gentiles think one had already happened? Why were many confused who were with Jesus, and even saw Lazarus raised from the dead? The Jews themselves were split on the resurrection of the dead. It seems Gentiles had no problems understanding, they just had the wrong resurrection, and they thought they missed it. Well sure, if one is not dead, they cannot be resurrected. If you think only some left Abraham's bosom, and the rest had to stay, does God only do things half way?

The first resurrection of Christ and some of the saints is the first of three God proclaimed to be part of the harvest, the First Fruits from Leviticus 23:10, it's a sampling of the first harvest.

iamlamad · Oct 3, 2020

Timtofly said:
Many in Jerusalem which was the place being referenced. None of the other Gospels mentioned it. If it happened in Jerusalem, why not all over the world? Why did only Matthew bother to add it in? Did Matthew just make it up, cover just Jerusalem, or was not permitted to proclaim, "all over the world"? Many claimed a resurrection had already happened. Was it a secret that was not to be explained, but Matthew let it slip? How did certain Gentiles think one had already happened? Why were many confused who were with Jesus, and even saw Lazarus raised from the dead? The Jews themselves were split on the resurrection of the dead. It seems Gentiles had no problems understanding, they just had the wrong resurrection, and they thought they missed it. Well sure, if one is not dead, they cannot be resurrected. If you think only some left Abraham's bosom, and the rest had to stay, does God only do things half way?

I think it was because God only raised some "Elders" when Jesus rose. I DON'T think anyone had to stay in Abe's Bosom. Most went to heaven in spirit form. I think only some elders were resurrected. It is only a guess because God did not tell us.

fli · Oct 3, 2020

To continue
Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." NKJV

We know when God said the kingdom dragnet was full He meant all the elect had entered into His kingdom. Shortly prior to it being full the fullness of the gentiles entered. Then the last elect of true Israel had their blindness removed and all Israel was saved.

The fullness of the gentiles does not mean every gentile or even most of the gentiles. The fullness of the gentiles is a specific group that only God can identify.

Gen 48:17 Now when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; so he took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. 18 And Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head." 19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations." NKJV

The term “multitude of nations” could just as well been translated “fullness of the gentiles”. So Ephraim became the fullness of the gentiles.

Ephraim was the tribe that possessed most of the land of Israel when it split after Solomon's death. If you remember they seemed to disappear after they were conquered. So it seems that in Romans 11 above the Spirit is telling us that when the last elect descendant of Ephraim has entered the Kingdom the blinders will be lifted from natural Israel and at that time “all Israel” will be saved.

I do not believe that all Israel means every single Israelite alive at that time will be redeemed. Paul has detailed just who true Israel is and I believe that is who he is referring to. But all Israel does mean all believers in Jesus. That is the 2 candle sticks and the 2 olives trees standing before God. One of the candle sticks and olive trees is natural Israel under law. One of the candle sticks and olive trees is the hybrid Israel under grace.

iamlamad · Oct 9, 2020

fli said:
Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

Are WE, the Gentile church of today "the apostles to whom He was speaking? They were all Jews: is the Gentile church of today all Jews?

What is meant by "age?" WHICH "age?" Most Christians believe we (the Gentile church of today) are living in the age of grace or the "church age:" a parenthesis inserted into the Jewish age. It is the JEWISH age that ends with the 70th week - as proven in Daniel when He states that the 70 weeks are for HIS PEOPLE.

On the other hand, the age of Grace or the church age (the dispensation of the Gentiles) will end with the pretrib rapture and "TIME" will go right back to the Jewsih age to finish that age with the 70th week.

It is wisdom to notice WHO a specific verse is pointed to. There are verses pointed to the Jews, verses pointed to the Gentile church of today, and there are verses pointed to the nations: THREE different groups that have end-time passages pointed to them.

Take a scripture pointed to the Jews - and imagine it is for the church - and one ends up with false doctrine.

fli · Oct 9, 2020

You are correct. When one interprets scripture they have to be careful.

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV

I do not believe that the Jews of today are told to baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Nor do I believe that they are told to observe all that Jesus taught. He was speaking to those Jews who had entered into the new covenant. Jesus has died and been resurrected when He spoke to those people above.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — NKJV

The Jews today are not in covenant as they did not enter the new one God made with them.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. NKJV

There is neither Jew nor Greek in Jesus. We the church today are not Jews. Neither were those Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 28 above. Therefore; if the church age ends and the Jewish age immediately starts when it ends; Jesus could only be referring to the end of the church age.

I hopr that I answered all your questions.

The end of the age rapture

Searching for Truth

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Searching for Truth

I love you three.

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I love you three.

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Searching for Truth

Lamad

Lamad

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Lamad

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