Should SDA's attend synagogue on Shabbat if early Jewish believers did?

My family and I attend several Orthodox Jewish synagogues for Shabbat services, and do our best to remain in the eruv when we are there for the day.

I'm not SDA, but I am disciple of and believer that Jesus is the Messiah.

The Chabad shuls are usually the most welcoming of outsiders, but often enough if you email or call the rabbi ahead of time, tell them you are a Christian looking to learn what a Jewish synagogue service is like so you can learn more about Judaism, they will more than often or not welcome you and maybe even pair you up with another congregant so you can follow along. You will of course be asked to keep your opinions and beliefs to yourself, as proselytizing is their greatest concern (as it would be if someone from another religion or even denomination came to a church), however potential converts from other religions, most often Christianity do regularly show up so it's not unusual to even find other Christians at various stages of inquiry through to near conversion at an Orthodox Jewish synagogue service, as well as former Christians.

Should SDAs (and other Torah believers in Jesus) attend synagogue services? Yes! It's what the Master would do. Just keep in mind the warning that Jesus gave us that if you are found out to be a proselytizer for his name sake, you may find yourself being asked to leave the synagogue. So out of love for the opportunity to learn, and out of common courtesy for the Jewish community, don't be that person. Be honest with who you are and why you are there, and you will get the most of going and participating as a valued member of the community. Unfortunately some communities have been burned with outright infiltration by those who had ulterior motives, so that's why its usually best to reach out to the rabbi first to at least decide if he's ok with you being there. It's worth it once you are able to build relationships with the rabbis, and they learn that you're not there to disrupt but to learn. Trust me, there will be more than enough opportunities for you to share your beliefs and honest questions vs traditional Judaism, as once people learn who are you are, the questions will come from them - and most often from the rabbis themselves.

The belief that if Christians really love the Torah as Jesus did, that they would be in synagogue on Shabbat, is often a point brought up by counter-missionaries, so when you go against this expectation, it really disarms and generates even more questions. I find it to be a very good exercise in growth, because often Christians learn a lot more in a Jewish synagogue than they would in a typical church.

In fact it was in the synagogues that the Jerusalem Council in Acts made it clear that is where they expected new disciples of the Master to attend.

Just make sure you know what you believe and why before going, since if you're not prepared, you could find yourself in a very tough spot internally and theologically, straddling the fence so to speak, especially if you or others start pressing you about your faith, which is great for you, but not so great for those in your immediate circle who are probably freaked out that you're starting to accept some of the amazing truths (and falsehoods) about your faith you will discover as you go.

To be honest, after years of such attendance, I myself see Christianity and Judaism as the same religion, with Judaism emphasizing on the value of Torah that the Messiah will have, at the expense of his divine mission; and Christians emphasizing the divine mission of the Messiah at the expense of the Torah. Both extreme approaches will have one miss the Messiah by a long shot. That is why I've had to read the Torah for myself, in its Hebrew, to see a lot of what is about the Messiah, his mission, what he does. And since even the Bereans could do so, I am thus still a disciple and believer of the Messiah.

However not everyone should just jump right in to do this. If one is not able to prove their faith and belief in Messiah Jesus, and everything he taught, and everything his disciples taught, from nothing but the Torah itself, then they have nothing to stand on and will be forced intellectually to deal with the consequences of such. But even then, go to synagogue to learn Torah. Perhaps as you do, you will find those very answers as I have.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No, I asked you WHY you NEED grace...

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Do you born with eternal life in you? Grace bring eternal life to us... Grace might reign through Righteousness to bring eternal life...Romans 5

Only God Has eternal life, Not man...

Carl Emerson said:

No - confusion of definitions - no wonder the discussion goes round and round...

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In Hebrew it is all Torah

pasifika said:

Do you born with eternal life in you? Grace bring eternal life to us... Grace might reign through Righteousness to bring eternal life...Romans 5

Only God Has eternal life, Not man...

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Again, no answer. That is what grace DOES, but why do you need it?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Again, no answer. That is what grace DOES, but why do you need it?

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Because we don’t have eternal life in us...Only God has eternal life...maybe another question

Hello dear friend, nice to meet you. If you do not mind I may break your posts down into smaller ones so they can be discussed easier and to share a different point of view to the ones your currently sharing here...

chad kincham said:

Two scriptures cut to the chase about not having to keep the 7th day sabbath:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe DAYS, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

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Ok so let's look at your scripture contexts and the detail and see if they are saying what your claiming. You claim your scriptures here teach that "we do not have to keep the 7th day sabbath" of Gods 4th commandment and start by quoting Galatians 4:9-11?

Before you can use Galatians 4:9-11 to claims God's 4th commandment has been abolished I would say and I hope you would agree that we have to start by proving that Galatians 4:9-11 is actually talking about God's 4th commandment Sabbath to begin with? Can you prove to me that Galatians 4:9-11 is talking about Gods 4th commandment Sabbath? Fact is there is nothing in these scriptures whatsoever about God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Let's add the context back in shall we and see what Paul is referring to from the chapter context and the old testament scriptures he is referring to.....

GALATIANS 4:4-11[4], But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, [5], To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. [6], And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. [7], Therefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. [8], BUT THEN, WHEN YOU KNEW NOT GOD, YOU DID SERVICE UNTO THEM WHICH BY NATURE ARE NO GODS. [9], BUT NOW, AFTER YOU HAVE KNOWN GOD, OR RATHER ARE KNOWN OF GOD, HOW TURN YOU AGAIN TO THE WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS, TO WHICH YOU DESIRE AGAIN TO BE IN BONDAGE? [10], YOU OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS. [11], I AM AFRAID FOR YOU, LEST I HAVE BESTOWED UPON YOU LABOR IN VAIN.

Note v8-9 Paul is stating that these Galatians are returning back from following God to when they knew not God to serve those things that are not God to which they were previously in bondage to before they came to know God (important context).

GALATIANS 4:8-11 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? [10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS. [11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

Note: Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths. Its speaking of those who observe times.

DEUTERONOMY 18:9-11 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Note: The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes?

2 CHRONICLES 33:3-6 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Note: Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEVITICUS 19:26-30 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths.

So nope adding both context back into Galatians we see that Galatians 4 is not even talking about the Sabbath so one set of scriptures down, let's move to the next....

chad kincham said:

“Sabbaths, new moons, and set feasts” (1Ch 23:31; 2Ch 31:3), answer to “days, months, times.” Look at 1 Chronicles 23:31 1 Chronicles 23:31 (KJV) 31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the SABBATHS, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:

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Hmmm what? Where does it say this in Galatians 4? - It doesn't mention the Sabbath or anyone of God's 10 commandments. Some questions for consideration here....

1. Did Paul and the Apostles keep the Sabbath?

2. Where is the scripture that says Gods' 4th commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

3. Which Sabbaths <plural> in your view is Paul referring to? Was it....
(1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8
(2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25
(3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32
(4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36
(5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39
(6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36
(7) Sabbath rest of the land (7-year cycle) *Leviticus 25:2
(8) Sabbath of Jubilee culminating of the 7x7 yearly cycles sabbaths *Leviticus 25:9-54

You do know there are many kinds of Sabbaths in the old covenant that can fall on any day of the week right that are not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments right? So which ones in your view (scripture please)

chad kincham said:

The word sabbaths is word H7676 in Hebrew: H7676 (Strong) שַׁבָּת shabbâth shab-bawth'
Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath: - (+ every) sabbath.Total KJV occurrences: 111

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Ok and this is relevant to your argument how? You were discussing Galatians 4:9-11 not the Hebrew scriptures of the old testaments word שַׁבָּת shabbâth. The Greek word σάββατον Sabbaton is not used once in Galatians 4:9-11. Yet your building your argument suggesting that it is when it is not used why?

chad kincham said:

Thus Galatians 4:9-11 is talking about sabbaths that includes the weekly sabbaths.

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Yet you have yet to prove that Galatians 4:9-11 is talking about God's 4th commandment Sabbath? The context of Galatians 4:8-9 Paul is stating that these Galatians are returning back from following God to when they knew not God to serve those things that are not God to which they were previously in bondage to before they came to know God (important context).
The context show that and the fact your not able to prove from the scriptures that Galatians is talking about God's 4th commandment proves your claims dear friend are not true.

One down.... Next...

chad kincham said:

Next: Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body isof Christ.

The word sabbath above, is H4521 in Strongs: G4521(Strong) σάββατον sabbaton
sab'-bat-on Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath(that is, Shabbath), or day of WEEKLY reposefrom secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - SABBATH (DAY), week. Total KJV occurrences: 68

Colossians 2:16-17 states to let no one judge you for not keeping the sabbath day, because it’s a shadow of Jesus, (who’s the real rest for us Matthew 11:28-29 - every day we rest in a Him, and not on a ceremonial day).

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Ok your next claim is that Colossians 2:16-17 proves that God's 4th commandment is a shadow sabbath. Let's examine the detail and the context to see if this claim is true shall we?

Some try to claim by pulling scripture from context that Paul is teaching in Colossians 2:16-17 that God's 4th commandment is a "shadow law" of the old covenant fulfilled in Christ without considering that there were many different kinds of annual ceremonial "sabbaths" in the old covenant from the Mosaic book of the law that were not God's 4th commandment “seventh day” Sabbath. Some of these annual ceremonial sabbaths that were not God’s 4th commandment and could fall on any day of the week included the ceremonial sabbaths in the feast days and days of holy convocation where no work was to be done.

These ceremonial sabbath(s) and days of holy convocation excluding work included…

(1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8
(2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25
(3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32
(4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36
(5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39
(6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36
(7) Sabbath rest of the land (7-year cycle) *Leviticus 25:2
(8) Sabbath of Jubilee culminating of the 7x7 yearly cycles sabbaths *Leviticus 25:9-54

All of the above of course were different to God’s 4th commandment and could fall on any day of the week unlike Gods’ 4th commandment which is strictly every ) “seventh day” of the week.

(9) God’s Sabbath of the 4th commandment of the 10 commandments which is one of God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Exodus 20:8-11 and a “memorial” and celebreation of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth outlined in Genesis 2:1-3.

When these annual ceremonial sabbaths which could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle, fell on God’s 4th commandment weekly Sabbath it was called a “High Sabbath” as two sabbaths in one (see JOHN 19:31; more here). So one of the questions we need to consider is what sabbath plural was Paul talking about in COLOSSIANS 2:16-17. It cannot be “the Sabbath” of God’s 4th commandment as the Greek application and use in Colossians 2:16 is GNP which means genitive neuter plural meaning plural application. The within chapter and scripture contexts will help to show what sabbaths are being referring to so we will look at both the within chapter and within scripture contexts to help determine the Greek word application.

Greek application of sabbath and word meanings why are they important here?

Keep in mind here that the Greek word for sabbath is σάββατον; sabbaton (G4521). The Greek word for Sabbath unlike the Hebrew has many different meanings and application depending on the context that it is used and can mean; (1). the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath of Gods 4th commandment), or (2) day of weekly repose from secular work; (3) the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath day, or (4) a week.

So with the many meaning and application of the Greek word for sabbath (sabaton) it is the context as to how it is used that determines the application and word meaning. The above is only provided to show that the Greek word for sabbath has many different meanings and applications and is different to the Hebrew meaning which for sabbath is שׁבּת; shabbâth (H7676) which simply means the Sabbath or from one sabbath to another. This word has its' root word in שׁבת; shâbath (H7673) which means to rest, stop work, to cease and celebrate and to keep sabbath.

So why is this important?

The Greek word has a higher use definition which is outside of the Hebrew. For example sabbaton can be applied to the week (not the Sabbath) or any day of weekly repose (ceasing from work) that is not the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment. Sabbaton can also be applied to the intervals between the seventh day sabbath as well as God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath.

The questions that need to be considered here to correctly understand what sabbaths are being discussed by Paul are …

(1) How do we know what the Greek word sabbaton is being applied to in Colossian 2:16-17?
(2) What is the within chapter and scripture contexts of Colossians 2:16-17?
(3) What sabbath plural are being referred to in Colossians 2:16-17 and are they shadows?
(4) Is Paul possibly referring to something in the old testament?
(5) How does what Paul is saying in Colossians 2:16-17 link to the scriptures in rest of the bible?

Here in this post we have only touched the surface and have shown through the scriptures alone that there are many different kinds of ceremonial sabbaths of the old testament which include the annual shadow sabbaths in the feast days, the days of holy concovation where no work was to be done and the sabbaths of the land all of which are not God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments and can fall on any day of the week.

We have also shown in this post by God’s grace shown that the Greek word used for sabbath has many meanings and applications determined by the within scripture chapter and contexts and is not always a reference to God’s 4th commandment but can mean simply ceasing from weekly work or a week or the days inbetween the Sabbath as well as God’s 4th commandment Sabbath. Notice that none of the above shared here is considered at all when surface reading Colossians 2:16-17 pulled from it’s contexts to the rest of the old and new testament scriptures.

Lets prayerfully consider the questions above and add the context back into Colossians 2:16-17 to see what these scriptures are really talking about in the coming posts.

chad kincham said:

Next: Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body isof Christ.

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In the previous post it was demonstrated through the scriptures alone that;

1. There are many different kinds of ceremonial sabbaths of the old testament which include the annual shadow sabbaths in the feast days, the days of holy concovation where no work was to be done and the sabbaths of the land all of which are not God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments and can fall on any day of the week.

2. The Greek word used for sabbath has many meanings and applications determined by the within scripture chapter and contexts and is not always a reference to God’s 4th commandment but can mean simply ceasing from weekly work or a week or the days inbetween the Sabbath as well as God’s 4th commandment Sabbath.

In this post let’s begin to consider the within chapter and scripture context of Colossians 2:16-17 and consider the following questions.

(1) How do we know what sabbaths the Greek word sabbaton is being applied?

The answer to this question of course is the context. Let’s look at the within chapter and scripture contexts.

WHAT IS THE WITHIN SCRIPTURE CONEXT OF COLOSSIANS 2:16?

COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in (1) MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an (2) HOLYDAY [FEASTIVALS], or of the (3) NEW MOON, or of the (4) SABBATH DAYS <plural GNP>

PAUL'S within scriptures CONTEXT and use of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 is in reference to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.

EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and (1) MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the (2) FEASTS, and in the (3) NEW MOONS, and in the (4) SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.

ISAIAH 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your NEW MOONS and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

LEVITICUS 23:4 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will also cause all her mirth to CEASE, HER [ISRAEL'S] FEAST DAYS, her NEW MOONS, and HER SABBATHS, and all HER [ISRAELS] SOLEMN FEASTS.

Note in HOSEA the prophecy to put an end to all the end to all the annual feasts and in all the above scripture applications that link directly to Colossians 2:16, the sabbaths being referred to here are always applied the annual feast days, meat and drink offerings, and the new moons? So the scripture context is to the annual sabbaths in the feast days that are shadows of things to come. As shown earlier these annual ceremonial sabbaths or days of holy convocation included (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36

WHAT IS PAUL REFERRING TO IN COLOSSIANS 2?

Well of course it is the ceremonial “shadow laws” and the annual ceremonial shadow sabbaths of the Mosaic book of the law. The chapter context of Colossians 2:11-17 is to “circumcision” and “baptism” and the blotting out of the “ordinances that were against us” that were all “shadows of things to come v17.

WHAT IS THE CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COLOSSIANS 2:16-17?

COLOSSIANS 2:11-17
[11], In whom also you are CIRCUMCISION with the CIRCUMCISION made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
[12], Buried with him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the working of God, who has raised him from the dead.
[13], And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[14], BLOTTING OUT the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[15], And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[16], Let no man therefore judge you in FOOD AND DRINK, or in respect of a HOLY DAY [FESTIVAL], or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAYS:
[17], Which are a SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

Note in v11 the chapter context of Colossians 2:16 is to the shadow laws in the ceremonial ordinance of circumcision pointing to circumcision of the heart made without hands by the circumcision of Christ.

THE SHADOW LAWS FORETOLD IN THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES?

DEUTERONOMY 10:16 [16] CIRCUMCISE THERFORE THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30:6 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITH YOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4:4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Note: new covenant fulfillment of the shadows of the ceremonial ordinance of circumcision pointing the circumcision of the heart through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2:25-29 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORITHIANS 7:19 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8:10 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS [NOTE: THE SHADOW OF CIRCUMCSION]: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

CONCLUSION; The chapter contexts of Colossians 2 is to the ceremonial ordinance of circumcision, baptism laws in ordinances that are a shadow of things to come pointing to a new heart to love and obey God in the new covenant not God’s 10 commandments of God’s 4th commandment.

……………..

Now that we know what Colossians 2:16-17 is referring to let’s look at other scriptures by Paul on the same subject matter here…

HEBREWS 9:1-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

HEBREWS 10:1-9
[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
[6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
[9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

NOTE; the LAW in reference here is NOT God's 10 Commandments but the law of sin offerings from the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the LAW *DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26 from the OLD COVENANT *EXODUS 24:7 (Please look at the attached scriptures)

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CONCLUSION: Context matters dear friend. Colossians 2:16-17 is in reference to the context of the annual sabbaths in the feast days connected to the meat and drink offerings, the annual feast days, the new moons which were all shadows of things to come but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2 has nothing to do with God’s 4th commandment or God’s 10 commandments.

chad kincham said:

Sabbath day keepers are therefore shadow keepers.

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Hmm nope that would be impossible. Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandment is not a shadow of anything because in the new covenant scriptures Gods' LAW (10 commandments) gives us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Righteousness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we knowingly break anyone of them according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin once they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and reject it according to the scriptures do not enter the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of Gods' grace *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-31.

Hope this helps...

chad kincham said:

Sabbath day keepers are therefore shadow keepers.

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Furthermore; unlike the "annual shadow sabbaths in the feast days", it is impossible for God's 4th commandment Sabbath of the 10 commandments to be a shadow sabbath of anything!

Why?????

[1]. All the shadow laws mentioned in the new testament are in relation to the Mosiac laws for remission of sin of the old covenant written in the book of the covenant not God's 10 commandments *Colossians 2; Ephesians 2; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9 and Hebrews 10 of which God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments. made and spoken by God and written with the finger of God alone.

[2]. The Sabbath commandment is God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 of God's 10 commandment *Exodus 20:1-17 and it was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 BEFORE the fall of mankind before sin, before God's plan of salvation was given to mankind, before Moses, Before Israel or any Jew and when mankind was in perfect harmony with God *Genesis 2:1-3. No sin = no law = no shadows

[3]. Gods Sabbath was made as part of the finished work of creation not something to come *Genesis 2:1-3 (further proof of this to come)

[4]. God's 4th commandment points backward not forward as a "memorial" of creation starting off as "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy" - Exodus 20:8

[5]. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day.

[6]. According to the scriptures JESUS made the Sabbath for all mankind *Mark 2:27

[7]. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath day *Mark 2:28 and as our example kept it as a Holy day as did all the Apostles and disciples and he is the Lord of it (creator) * Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1 Corinthians 11:1; Ephesians 5:1-21; Peter 2:20-22; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10.

So nope. Sabbath keepers are simply believers and followers of God's Word and not lost or confused in the shadows....

hluke said:

I used to be a SDA (so glad I had a strong biblical grounding to leave). Firstly, Its quite strange because they believe that Sunday worshippers will receive the mark of the beast, and Sabbath keepers will receive a special reward in heaven.

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I see so sad to see you leave hluke, what was your strong biblical background that helped you to leave. Can you share it with me and lets discuss the scriptures? Also, for your clarification no one I know in the SDA Church teaches as you say "Sunday worshippers will receive the mark of the beast, and Sabbath keepers will receive a special reward in heaven". I think perhaps you may have a misunderstanding as to what we believe here. No one receives the "mark of the beast" according to the scriptures until "Sunday worship" is forced under legislation and law (more info here).

hluke said:

With regards to the Jewish law, from my extensive brainwashing sessions with the pastor, whom I frustrated with many painful doctrinal questions, insisted that I should keep 'dietary laws' and the sabbath only.

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Hmm what? Your Pastor told you to keep only the dietary laws and the Sabbath? I have never come across that one before so that is new to me. I do believe in the dietary laws though as these indeed are biblical. You can read about them all through the old and new testament scriptures.

hluke said:

This idea stems from the belief that in the years of Genesis God required people to eat plants, thereby giving them extended lifespans. I was told not to drink caffeine, avoid pork, prawns and any other thing that goes against the Jewish dietary laws.

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They are not Jewish laws they are biblical laws. Do you think God knows what is good for you and has given us instruction in healthful living?

hluke said:

A was taught that the pope was the lawless one who exalted himself above the most high and changed the times and laws by forcing early christians to worship the pagan sun god. (Sunday)

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Goodness dear friend, are you making this up? I have never heard of such nonsense. Perhaps you may have had a misunderstanding? I do not know anyone one in any SDA Church that has ever taught that as you claim, "the Pope changed the laws by forcing early Christians to worship the pagan Sun god"

hluke said:

However, I researched this topic and there's strong evidence to suggest that the early church worshipped on the Lord's day. The most compelling evidence is John the divine in Revelation: "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

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I see so your looking for evidence outside of the biblical record and you claims that the early Church worshiped on "the Lords day" Can you prove to me from scripture alone that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week? What about the other evidence that shows Gods' people all through time have kept God's 4th commandment Sabbath unbroken all through time from the days of JESUS to after the death of JESUS, the Apostles and disciples after their deaths all through time to this very present day?

hluke said:

So with regards to the law, since Jesus says the one who loves him will keep his commandmnents, SDA'S think that this statement is a nod to keeping the 10 commandments and other, but strangely not all of the Jewish law. As mentioned, this law is put into our hearts now, so its no longer a requirement to be anxious about keeping the meticulous requirements of the law.

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Actually perhaps you may have a misunderstanding here as well. Love is the fulfillment of God's law it is not breaking it. (see Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; and James 2:8-12)
Unless we are born again to love we cannot see Gods Kingdom *John 3:3-7. Those who are born of God do not practice sin *1 John 3:6-9. Those who practice sin have neither seen him or know him *1 John 2:3-4. Sin is the transgression of God's law.

hluke said:

On a side note, SDA's also believe in annihilationism which means they don't believe the wicked will receive a just eternal punishment in hell, they just simply get thrown into the pit of fire and cease to exist: this is concerning for me.

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Pretty just punishment in my view. They miss out on eternal life. That is what the scriptures teach. What type of God does one worship who believes God tortures people in eternal burning hellfire? This is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church and it is not biblical.

hluke said:

In addition, apparently Jesus entered the 'heavenly sanctury' in 1844 and cleansed all past believers, but this apparently means that any believer past 1844 is judged specifically by whether or not they keep the sabbath.

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Hmm nope. Never heard that before. Are you referring to the investigative judgement of Daniel and Revelation? Happy to provide the scriptures and the calculations if you like. BTW I think you mean JESUS entered the holy of hollies to perform the final atonement for remission of sins and the cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary. This is the fulfillment of the shadow feast of the cleansing of the Sanctuary (Yom Kippur) the great day of Atonement.

hluke said:

Its also a requirement to confess Ellen White as a prophet to be baptised which I obviously wasn't willing to do.

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Goodness that is simple not true. Prove it.

bekkilyn said:

It's been at least a couple of years now that I've been involved in various "sabbath" arguments here on CF and yet I'm still waiting for someone to point out the exact verse in the NT that Gentile Christians are *specifically* commanded to observe the seventh day sabbath. I'm still not able to find the verse anywhere in any bible that I own, and I have a fairly large library of different versions and translations. What I have of course seen is excruciatingly long posts filled with bible quotes that have absolutely nothing to do with what I've asked for, as if those somehow explain everything!

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I think from memory you where pointed to the scriptures many times already. You just choose to ignore them for example...

HEBREWS 4:9 Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Also in the new covenant scriptures God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word *ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13. There are no more Jewish or Gentile believers of God's Word as we are now all one in Christ *EPHESIANS 2:11-13; GALATIANS 3:28-29;. Gentile believers are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL in the new covenant you have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12 of a new heart to love. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

I think also I remembered asking you where is the scripture that says God's 4th commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. - Still waiting..... Zzz

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

Carl Emerson said:

I have summarised your position accurately.

Your spin on scripture is that confirmation of conversion includes being able to see the fruit of keeping the law including command #4.

Almost all folks on CF do not feel obliged to heed your spin to keep #4 and you insist they will go to hell.

Next...

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Hmm... nope I have not provided any spin only scripture unless your trying to claim scripture is spin when they are Gods' Words not mine. As posted earlier.... We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. These are God's Word not mine. Now what is it from the above you do not believe?

chad kincham said:

Jesus of course kept the sabbath, since the old covenant was in effect until He died.
Not only that, had He attended synagogue on Sunday, He would have been by Himself, since every Jew went on Saturday, per the covenant that existed at that time.

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So where is the scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? Seems JESUS and all the Apostles are silent in this regard does it not bother you when God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7?

According to God's Word (not mine) if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. According to the scriptures all those who knowingly practice sin after they receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods Word will not enter into God's kingdom because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do despite to the Spirit of Gods grace *HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 7:21-23; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9.

For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 5:29.

Sabbath keepers are simply believers and followers of God's Word and not lost or confused in regards to the shadows like some seem to be....

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word...

Carl Emerson said:

Wonderful you have confirmed that they obeyed His voice, not the written Law - and by the way - we have no record of them keeping the Sabbath.

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Actually he did no such thing. He provided you scripture disproving your claims that people did not know God's law before Mt Sinai by quoting Genesis 26:5. The written Word is the recorded words of God. What comes first the spoken Word of God or the recorded written Word of God. I cannot see how your argument makes any sense.

Hope you do not mind me sharing some more thoughts on your post and the scriptures you have provided here...

chad kincham said:

That’s because the new covenant is of the spirit, and not of the old letter. The reason the Decalogue (Ten Commands) are no longer in effect, but have ended, is found in 2 Corinthians chapter three, wherein we find that the Ten Commands are: the ministration of DEATH, the letter which KILLS, and the ministration of CONDEMNATION which is contrasted with the new covenant (testament) of the spirit, that gives life.

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written andengraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glorywas to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation beglory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is DONE AWAY wasglorious, much more that which remaineth isglorious.

The reason the Ten commands kills, brings death, and condemnation is due to the fact that the penalty under the law for breaking any of the Ten, was being put to death by stoning.
The penalty for homicide - being put to death: Exo 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. The penalty for not honoring your mother and father: put to death by stoning: Lev 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put todeath: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall beupon him. The penalty for adultery: put to death by stoning:
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with anotherman's wife, even hethat committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
The penalty for breaking the sabbath by doing any work, such as picking up sticks for kindling: put to death by stoning:

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it isholy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth anywork therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

If the Ten Commands are still in effect, the penalty for breaking them is still in effect, thus those who insist on keeping the ended covenant that contained the Ten Commands, are breaking the law themselves, by not stoning to death those who break the commands.

You can't have one without the other.

Imagine you were doing a ride along with a police officer, and you see that he ignores traffic law violations: speeding, running red lights, reckless driving, drunk driving, etc.

During the conversation you have with the officer, he says, "yes, I believe in the traffic laws. I keep those laws, myself - I just don't enforce them".

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We are not in the old covenant now but the new covenant so the old covenant scriptures you post here are not relevant to God's believers in the new covenant. The new covenant is indeed in the Spirit but the new covenant says nothing about God's 10 commandments being abolished or no longer in effect. In fact the new covenant scriptures show that everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant to new covenant believers (scripture support here linked). So that claim is not true.

Then we have Jesus in his very own words stating "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." -Matthew 5:17-20, or we have Paul refuting this same idea the Gods 10 commandments are abolished here when he says "Do we abolish the law through faith? God forbid we establish the law." - Romans 3:21.

Jesus and all the Apostles upheld all God's 10 commandments in the new covenant (more scripture support here linked), so a claim that God's 10 commandments are abolished is simply not biblical and pretty much contradicts the rest of the bible (both old and new testament scriptures). In fact Gods' Law (10 commandments) has the same role it always has in the new covenant and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25, to be born again in the Spirit into God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 to walk in God's law through a new heart to love, not break it *Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:6-9; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; Romans 3:31.

We have already shown through the scriptures above that an interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3 that God's law is abolished contradict pretty much all the old and new covenant scriptures. Now, let's look at your proof texts in 2 Corinthians 3 and see if they are saying God's 10 commandments are abolished?

Lets add in all the context for clarification.....

2 CORINTHIANS 3:1-14
[1], Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, letters of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
[2], you are our letter written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
[3], For as much as you are manifestly declared to be the letter of Christ ministered by us, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART. <Reference to God's new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 18:31-32; Ezekiel 36:24-27).

Note: in [v3] that Paul is stating that the Corinthians here are letters of Christ ministered by Paul and his companions “written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone (reference to the 10 commandments) but IN the fleshly tables of the HEART! Pauls reference here is to Gods new covenant promise of JEREMIAH 31:31-34 repeated by Paul in HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT that i will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a god, and they shall be to me a people.

So the context here is the ministration (Paul and his companions being the ministers) of the new covenant Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ of which the Corinthians are examples who have been given a new heart to love God and walk in his commandments which is the new covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 repeated by Paul in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:15-17.

[4], And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
[5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God.

[6], WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW COVENANT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

Note: in [6] the context are repeated from [v3] that is that Paul and his companions were the MINISTERS of the NEW COVENANT. “NOT OF THE LETTER OF THE LAW BUT OF THE SPIRIT; FOR THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE”.

Note: no where here does [v6] teach that God’s law is abolished. It simply states that “the letter killeth” that is the letter of the law gives us a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 when God’s 10 commandments are broken and the penalty of sin is death *Romans 6:21-23; Romans 8:13 but it is not able to save us from sin and change our hearts to love and follow God.

Note: in [v6] continued “FOR THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE” reference to the new covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:15-17. The Jews had the letter of the law but did not have the Spirit of the law. JESUS said to the Jews that “unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” *Matthew 5:20; Matthew 23:13. The Scribes and Pharisees had the letter of the law but not the Spirit of the law. They had the outward appearance as to what the law required but not the change of heart that the new covenant promised *Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:15-17. “THE LETTER KILLS BUT THE SPIRIT GIVETH LIFE”. They had the letter or outward forms and ceremonies but were not born again *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9 by the Spirit to love through a change of heart by the Spirit that brings life. On the OUTSIDE the Scribes and Pharisees appeared righteous to men but inwardly they were breaking God’s law and were full of dead mans bones *Matthew 23:25:28.

JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28.

JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise to LOVE and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10.

This is leading to the NEW COVENANT PROMISE of a NEW HEART to LOVE *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 5:42; 1 John 5:17-19; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 5:3; 1 John 4:8.

We do not have the LOVE of GOD in us *JOHN 5:42. We need to be BORN OF GOD to LOVE *1 John 4:7 and partake of the NEW COVENANT promise. This is why JESUS teaches in *John 3:3-7 that UNLESS we are made CLEAN from the INSIDE OUT and BORN AGAIN to LOVE we cannot enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. This is what JESUS is talking about in Matthew 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's LAW from the INSIDE OUT.

Whosoever is BORN of GOD to LOVE in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12 does not commit SIN *1 John 3:9; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Matthew 22:36-40. This is the GOOD NEWS of the Gospels in the NEW COVENANT we have a SAVIOUR to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4.

1 John 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are BORN AGAIN to LOVE and it is LOVE that fulfills God's LAW in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10. This results in a people that keep God's LAW (10 commandments) from the INSIDE OUT. *Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 8:10-12. Unless we are BORN AGAIN to LOVE we cannot enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *John 3:3-7.

………….

So what the conclusion of the matter?

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.

God’s LAW (10 commandments) are not abolished they are fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4.

[7], BUT IF THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES, WAS GLORIOUS, SO THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY BEHOLD THE FACE OF MOSES FOR THE GLORY OF HIS COUNTENANCE; WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY:

Note: It is condemnation and death (sin) that is to be done away with and the letter through the Spirit not God’s law as God’s law is not sin but is Holy, Just and Good * Romans 7:7; Romans 7:11-12 and gives us a knowledge of what sin is in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25 it is the ministration of death to those who have faith in God's word and are given life through his Spirit (read Romans 8:1-4)

[8], HOW SHALL NOT THE MINISTRATION OF THE SPIRIT BE RATHER GLORIOUS?

[9], FOR IF THE MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION BE GLORY, MUCH MORE DOES THE MINISTRATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS EXCEED IN GLORY.

Note: The 10 commandments (the letter) written on stone is the “MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION AND DEATH” that is it condemns sin or the breaking of God’s 10 commandments. It brings a knowledge is sin and condemnation brings the guilt of sin which is death. Through the Spirit of JESUS our sins are forgiven as we have faith in God’s Word *John 3:16-19; 1 John 1:9 and His Spirit through faith in the Word of God *John 6:63 changes our heart *Hebrews 8:10-12 to love and obedience that leads to righteousness *Romans 13:8-10; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; Romans6:14:16; Romans 1:5; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

[10], FOR EVEN THAT WHICH WAS MADE GLORIOUS HAD NO GLORY IN THIS RESPECT, BY REASON OF THE GLORY THAT EXCELS.

[11], FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINS IS GLORIOUS.

Note: The purpose of God’s law was only to give us a knowledge of what sin is *Romans3:20 and to lead us to JESUS *Galatians 3:22-25. It could never change us and free us from the power and condemnation of sin. The old covenant Sanctuary laws for remission of sins (burnt offerings and animal sacrifices and blood offerings) pointed to JESUS and God’s plan of salvation in the new covenant and God’s promise of salvation from sin’s power *Jeremiah31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12; Hebrews 10:15-17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 3:6-9.

[12], Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

[13], AND NOT AS MOSES, WHICH PUT A VEIL OVER HIS FACE, THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY LOOK TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS ABOLISHED:

Note: the veil to be abolished is the “letter of condemnation and sin” which leads to the Spirit of life which is received by faith in God’s Word that leads us to the Spirit of Christ that works in us to love *Philippians 2:13; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 3:22-25; Galatians 5:16; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 3:6-9; Revelation 14:12.

[14], BUT THEIR MINDS WERE BLINDED: FOR UNTIL THIS DAY REMAINS THE SAME VEIL NOT TAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
[15], BUT EVEN TO THIS DAY, WHEN MOSES IS READ, THE VEIL IS ON THEIR HEART.

Note: Following the “letter of the law”(old covenant) only leads to the outward appearance of righteousness condemned by JESUS when talking to the Scribes and Pharisees as highlighted above and in MATTHEW 5:20; MATTHEW 23:13 MATTHEW 23:25-28. We need to be saved from the INSIDE and receive a new heart to love. Outward obedience to God’s law does not save us because sin originates from the heart *MATTHEW 5:17-27.

[16], NEVERTHELESS WHEN IT SHALL TURN TO THE LORD, THE VEIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY.
[17], NOW THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: AND WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
[18], BUT WE ALL, WITH OPEN FACE BEHOLDING AS IN A GLASS THE GLORY OF THE LORD, ARE CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, EVEN AS BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD.

The Spirit of the law is JESUS and God’s new covenant promise of salvation from sin and a new heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; Whosoever is born of God does not practice sin *1 JOHN 3:6-9. Sin is breaking anyone of God’s 10 commandments *James 2:10-11 or not believing and following Gods’ Word *Romans 14:23.

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More to come

chad kincham said:

2 Corinthians 3

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Just building on some more from the previous post....

I believe that the scriptures teach that those who interpret 2 Corinthians 3:7 as referring to Gods' 10 commandments being abolished contradict the very words of this same PAUL when he says in Romans "Do we then abolish the law through faith? God forbid we establish the law." -Romans 3:31. Lets look at the detail here as the same Greek words are being used...

Note the same Greek word is used for ROMANS 3:31 is also used in 2 CORITHIANS 3:7…

2 Corinthians 3:7 (International Standard Version) Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (G2673) because the glory was fading away from it,

2 Corinthians 3:7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But if the ministry of death in The Scripture carved in stone was with glory, so that the children of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face (G2673) that which has been canceled ,

2 Corinthians 3:7 (KJV) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be (G2673) done away

2 Corinthians 3:7 (Greek) Εἰ δὲ ἡ διακονία τοῦ θανάτου ἐν γράμμασιν ἐντετυπωμένη ἐν λίθοις ἐγενήθη ἐν δόξῃ, ὥστε μὴ δύνασθαι ἀτενίσαι τοὺς υἱοὺς Ἰσραὴλ εἰς τὸ πρόσωπον Μωϋσέως διὰ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ τὴν (G2673) καταργουμένην

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Romans 3:31 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) Are we (G2673) eliminating The Written Law by faith? God forbid, but we are (G2476) establishing The Written Law.

Romans 3:31 (International Standard Version) Do we, then, (G2673) abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we (G2476) uphold the Law.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make (G2673) void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we (G2476) establish the law.

Note the Greek word used here for void/eliminating/abolish is G2673 in the Greek

Romans 3:31 (Greek) νόμον οὖν (G2673) καταργοῦμενην διὰ τῆς πίστεως μὴ γένοιτο· ἀλλὰ νόμον (G2476) ἱστῶμεν

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So as proven above the interpretation and claim that God's 10 commandments are abolished in 2 Corinthians 3 is simply unbiblical and contradicts the writings of JESUS and Paul and pretty much the rest of the old and new testament scriptures combined.

Hope this is helpful and has given you another view point to consider in your walk with God.

chad kincham said:

Sabbath day keepers, and Ten Commandment keepers are saying, those commands are still in effect and we keep them, but we don't enforce the law, as is required BY the law. The ten commands ended when the old covenant ended, because the ten are called “the covenant on two tables of stone” in scripture - thus when the old covenant ended, the ten commands ended with it - including the fourth command.

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As shown through the scriptures above already, it is God's Word, not the words of Sabbath keepers that state that God's 10 commandments are still in effect under the new covenant and a requirement for Christian living (more scripture . This is the operation of God as we have faith in His Word to be born again and made free to walk in God's Spirit *Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 5:16; 1 John 3:6-9; Matthew 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; Romans 3:31.

Hope this helps

chad kincham said:

Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, thatthe LORD gave me the two tables of stone, eventhe tables of the covenant.

Some people will claim that the new covenant is simply the old covenant restated, but that argument won’t hold water. Scripture says the new covenant is a BETTER covenant, founded on BETTER PROMISES - not the old one recycled. Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a BETTER covenant, which was established upon better promises. And says if the old one was faultless, there’d be no need for a new covenant. Heb 8:7 For if that first covenanthad been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

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No one here that I know is claiming that the new covenant is the same as the old covenant. Some here however do not understand that the 10 commandments are only one part of the old covenant but that it is both the 10 commandment and the Mosaic book of the covenant that made up the old covenant according to the scriptures....

Exodus 24:7 And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

Deuteronomy 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him to evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the CURSES OF THE COVENANT THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW:

Deuteronomy 31:26 TAKE THIS BOOK OF THE LAW, AND PUT IT IN THE SIDE OF THE ARK OF THE COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

2 Kings 23:2 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which was found in the house of the LORD.

2 Kings 23:3 And the king stood by a pillar, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, TO PERFORM THE WORDS OF THIS COVENANT THAT WERE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK. And all the people stood to the covenant.

2 Kings 23:21 And the king commanded all the people, saying, KEEP THE PASSOVER TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THIS COVENANT.

2 Chronicles 34:30 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he READ IN THEIR EARS ALL THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT THAT WAS FOUND IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD.

2 Chronicles 34:31 And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the LORD, to walk after the LORD, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to PERFORM THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK.

Some people seem to be surface readers only telling have the story in relation to what the old covenant is. The old covenant was made up of the 10 commandments spoken and written with the finger of God alone on two tables of stone, while the book of the covenant was spoken and written by Moses in a book. It is the book of the law for remission of sins that are the shadow laws fulfilled in the new covenant promise as they all pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation ministration in the new covenant promise. God's eternal law (10 commandments) have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of sin when broken and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith and made free to walk in Gods' Spirit *Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-4; Galatians 3:22-25; Galatians 5:16; Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10.

Hope this helps.

chad kincham said:

The truth of the matter is, God rested on the seventh day one time only - not weekly - but did not command anyone else to keep a seventh day sabbath at that time.

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According to the scriptures there is no scripture that says God no longer rests with his people on the Sabbath your making this up. JESUS who is lord and creator of the Sabbath tells us in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for all mankind. There was only Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3.

Before the written Word of God was the spoken Word of God. Where do you think the written Word comes from or what comes first the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God? According to the scriptures and JESUS the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 where God ended his Word of creation, set apart and blessed the "seventh day" for all mankind and made it a "Holy day of rest" *Genesis 2:1-3. So your claims here are simply once again not biblical.

chad kincham said:

You won’t find the word sabbath anywhere in Genesis, nor find Abraham or anyone else in Genesis resting on the 7th day - because there was no such command until God gave it to Israel as a covenant sign of His freeing them from slavery in Egypt, after their Exodus.

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See previous section as your claims here are not biblical. Before the written word of God was the spoken Word of God. In Genesis 2:1-3 we see the ORIGIN of the SABBATH which GOD said that on the SEVENTH DAY of the creation week he RESTED and BLESSED and setting it apart from the other days of the week as a HOLY DAY.

Mankind was created on the 6th day of the week *Genesis 1:26-28. The SABBATH was made before sin and the fall of mankind and kept with ADAM and EVE in the garden of Eden. This is shown in the words of Jesus himself as he says that the SABBATH was made for mankind *Mark 2:27, If God created mankind on the 6th DAY of the creation week and made the SABBATH on the SEVENTH DAY of the creation week for mankind then ADAM and EVE kept the SABBATH and knew about it.

If ADAM and EVE kept the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH and knew about it then so did their descendants through the spoken Word of God. Before Mt Sinai and before the slavery of God’s people to the Egyptians mankind had the spoken Word from God handed down from our first parents and Adam and Eve and God himself. God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Either God or Adam told Eve. *Genesis 2:16-18; Genesis 3:1-6.

This was before mankind sinned and were in perfect harmony with God. After mankind had sinned *Genesis 3 and had been given the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and to do EVIL, mankind was given more of the spoken Word of God outlining God’s plan of salvation for mankind *Genesis 3:14-19.

When CAIN and ABEL were born it is clear from God’s WORD that there was SIN offerings for remission of sin as shown in Genesis 4:1-7. We are latter told that ENOCH and NOAH walked with God *Genesis 5:24; Genesis 6:8 so were following God’s ways.

In NOAH'S time the thoughts of men were only evil continually *Genesis 6:5-7. Jesus says that what defiles a man is an evil heart that breaks God’s commandments *Matthew 15:16:19. Before the Flood God made his Covenant with NOAH and his descendants *Genesis 9:1-9.

When Abraham was present God spoke to Abraham and made his covenant with him and his descendants *Genesis 15:18. 17:2-19. God said of Abraham that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Hebrew word used for laws is TORAH. So, it is very clear that the spoken WORD of GOD included God’s Commandments. Not only as the KNOWLEDGE of what GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS were but also the laws for remission of sin [FORGIVENESS] if any of God’s laws were broken. If they had no law then they would have no knowledge of what sin is.

If they did not know what sin was there would have been no need of sin offerings. Yet here we also see in Genesis 22:2-7 that it was a regular practice for Abraham and his family to offer burnt offerings for sin. So before Mt Sinai God’s people had the spoken Word of God after slavery to the Egyptians they received the written Word of God but through all this time God’s people had a knowledge of what sin was and what to do if sin was committed.

God said in Genesis 4:7 to Cain when he was angry because he did not worship God in his appointed way that by doing this it was sin. Jesus say the same in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow and teachings of men that break the commandments of God we are not following God. Mankind was destroyed by a flood because of sin (Genesis 6:5-7).

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sin (Genesis 18:20). Jacob knew about sin BEFORE Mt Sinia when he complained to Laben when he left with his daughters (Genesis 31:36).

When Potiphar’s wife came to Joseph with the aim of committing adultery, Joseph knew it was sin and protested saying how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God? (Genesis 39:9).

As time goes by God detroys mankind for evil and sin with a flood as well as Sodom and Gommorah with fire and the Epyptians with plagues *GENESIS 6:5-13; GENESIS 13:10-13; 18:20-33; 19:24; EXODUS 9:13-14.

If there was no knowledge of sin there would be no punishment for it. God’s WORD is very clear that all of God’s Commandments were kept by God’s people before the written WORD through the Spoken WORD of GOD.

Even Exodus proves your claims here to be in error. As Gods' people knew about the Sabbath before it was given as a written commandment before Mt Sinai in Exodus 16.

Exodus 16:23-28 [23], And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, TO MORROW IS THE REST OF THE HOLY SABBATH TO THE LORD: BAKE THAT WHICH YOU WILL BAKE TO DAY, AND SEETHE THAT YOU WILL SEETHE; AND THAT WHICH REMAINS OVER LAY UP FOR YOU TO BE KEPT UNTIL THE MORNING.
[24], AND THEY LAID IT UP TILL THE MORNING, AS MOSES BADE: AND IT DID NOT STINK, NEITHER WAS THERE ANY WORM THEREIN.
[25], AND MOSES SAID, EAT THAT TO DAY; FOR TO DAY IS A SABBATH TO THE LORD: TO DAY YOU SHALL NOT FIND IT IN THE FIELD.
[26], SIX DAYS YOU SHALL GATHER IT; BUT ON THE SEVENTH DAY, WHICH IS THE SABBATH, IN IT THERE SHALL BE NONE.
[27], And IT CAME TO PASS, THAT THERE WENT OUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THE SEVENTH DAY FOR TO GATHER, AND THEY FOUND NONE.
[28]4, And the LORD said to Moses, HOW LONG REFUSE YOU TO KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS AND MY LAWS?

As shown in the scriptures above, before the written Word of God is the Spoken Word of God and Gods' people had God's laws before Mt Sinai.

Hope this helps...

Carl Emerson said:

The context is from another thread regarding keeping the Sabbath Day on Saturday.

The early Jewish believers were known to have attended synagogue on Saturday.

If SDA insist on keeping the Law why do they not join the Jews, being the guardians of the Law ???

Further, did the early Jewish believers go to synagog on Saturday to keep the Law or to be a light of the Gospel?

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It is the Jews that must follow the SDA, because they have rejected Christ Jesus as the Messiah.