Is forced vaccination related to the mark of the beast?

claninja

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The answers are found in Revelation 21.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. Revelation 22, states nothing is anymore accursed, but still has nations needing the leaves for healing.

So is that a yes or no that nations need healing in the new heavens and new earth as stated in revelation 22?

Revelation 22:1-3 Then the angela showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of lifeb with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
 
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BABerean2

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I'm not sure what you are getting at. Revelation 22, states nothing is anymore accursed, but still has nations needing the leaves for healing.

So is that a yes or no that nations need healing in the new heavens and new earth as stated in revelation 22?

Revelation 22:1-3 Then the angela showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of lifeb with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.


Can you explain how the curse can be removed, and there still be a need for healing, or is the tree of life a symbol of the fact they are already healed in Revelation 22?

Does Christ now need to eat from the tree of life every day to keep from dying?


.
 
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Timtofly

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Do you believe the New Jerusalem is a literal cubed structure that comes down out of heaven and newly created earth and universe?

Are the souls under the alter in the New Jerusalem currently, cyring out for vengeance, waiting for the new Jerusalem to descend so that they can have resurrected bodies?
Not resurrected bodies. They were resurrected in Christ's Resurrection in 30AD. Glorified bodies in Revelation 6. New Jerusalem is the Garden of Eden and Paradise. Garden of Eden was where Adam was placed. Paradise was named at the Cross. New Jerusalem is the version that comes with the NHNE. It is all the same place where God lives in His creation.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The thief didn't go anywhere except to the grave (sheol/hades). the thief died that day.

Then Jesus is a liar; because He said "This day...."

Therefore, as I already stated, Jesus' words should be rendered "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".

I know this is what you want it to say, in order to support your position; but your translation does not jive with the structure of the sentence.

First off; note the context of what this is said in. Jesus is responding to the thief who says: "Lord remember me when you enter your kingdom."

(very next verse):
"And he said (to) him. Amen, (to) you (I) say: This day, with me you will be in (the) paradise."

Luke 23:43 Interlinear: and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

If it really were to read what you wish it would read; the Greek word order would be different.

Jesus doesn't say "Today, truthfully I say to you, you will be with me in paradise."

Now your error is further proved by the fact that:

"And Jesus said to him..." This verb "said" is aorist indicative active. Indicative means that the fact that Jesus spoke to him is portrayed in past tense because it is written down after it had happened.

Yet the verb "Amen, and to you I say...." That is present indicative active. Now if you remember from grammar lessons; an adverb modifies the verb. The adverb in this sentence is "this day". "This day" related to the verb "I say" which is in the present tense means that Today, (this day I'm speaking to you) you will be with me in paradise.

Now the "will" in: "Today, with me you will be in (the) paradise" is in the future tense because neither of the two speaking to each other have died yet.

Jesus did not ascend to paradise that day, as evidenced by His words to Mary

And.... He also says (while he's standing there talking to her) that he is (present tense) ascending to the Father.

So, please explain to me how Jesus is ascending to the Father at the very point he's standing on earth telling Mary he's ascending to the Father?

Jesus did not ascend until 40 days later

He told her not to touch him (because he hadn't ascended to the Father); yet people touch him later (and I'm sure Mary was included there). Did Jesus ascend to the Father twice? First sometime between meeting Mary at the tomb and the other women some time prior to the road to Emmas?

Christ was in the grave (hades) after his death, but he was not abandoned to it because of the resurrection.

Why did he say "It is finished" before he died then; and what does that mean, if he's in hades post death?

Correct, which is what I am talking about as well, thus I stated I am in agreement with them.

Yet they are stating that this is what Jews believe (or would have believed); but this is not a confirmation that they agree with the Jews. If these men really did believe as you claim they believed; then they were wrong.

In agreement with the quotes, I believe the the symbolic, parabolic, and apocalyptic "earth and heaven shattering" language is talking about the destruction of the old covenant system, which is often referred to as the "time of the end" or "end of the age", and is in regards to 66-70ad.

Then where is the Scripture that speaks of the destruction of the cosmos? Because what people usually associate as language that speaks of the destruction of the cosmos; you are claiming is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

The earth remains for an unknownable amount of time.
ecclesiasted 1:4 A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.

Do you know what that verse actually says in the Hebrew?
"One generation passes away and another generation comes; but earth from antiquity stands."

And yet you also say:

Therefore, I agree that the physical cosmos can end someday, but that timing is a secret unto God.

And so on what Scripture do you support your agreement that the physical cosmos can end some day?
 
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The Righterzpen

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What scripture specifically calls Jesus' death on the cross the great tribulation?

Daniel 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

There are 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and Pentecost.

When Jesus rode into Jerusalem the Sunday before the crucifixion; this was when the redeemed (out of the Jewish system) "anointed the most Holy".

The wicked of "that generation" though plotted to kill him instead.


25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There are 62 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and the commencement of "the great tribulation"; which starts the Friday before the crucifixion with Mary (Martha and Lazarus's sister) anointing Jesus's feet prior to sunset Friday night. Sunset on that Friday night would have commenced the sabbath. "The next day" (Sunday) is the entry into Jerusalem.

The "great tribulation" ran from sunset Friday to sunset Friday.


John 12:
12 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

Passover began Thursday at sundown. They would have killed the lambs that afternoon. Passover lambs were to be consumed before sunrise Friday morning. The following sunset would have commenced the next sabbath.

The "week" of the "great tribulation" was to end upon the commencement of the sabbath following the crucifixion. It was "cut short" by the Passover though, which occurred at midnight when Jesus is confronted by the angel of death. The job of the angel of death was to pronounce judgement upon the first born; which brought about their death, by the removal of the breath of life.


The removal of the breath of life separates the soul (and spirit) from the flesh. If Jesus didn't have a Divine nature; he would have died from that encounter. Although that is not what happened even though from that encounter to the point he died physically; his soul was in hades / Sheol. This is where he "preached to the spirits in prison".

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

The "great tribulation" is "cut short" of "one week". The "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth" commences with the day Jesus leaves the temple (Tuesday before sundown) and ends at the point that he dies. That is literally 3 / 24 hour periods later.

That night he goes to the house of Simon the Leper and an anonymous woman pours oil over his head. He says: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 26:6-12)

That event commenced his burial. (3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.) Jesus connects this to Jonah in the whale's belly. "I cried to you from hell." This is how it's descried in the book of Jonah.

The state of being under the wrath of God isn't "hades or Sheol" as it pertains to the literal "holding place". Those who are raised at the end of time to face the wrath of God, do so in both body and soul as one entity.

So yes, Jesus faced being forsaken by the totality of Divinity in both body and soul. He was forsaken by the Spirit, forsaken by the Father and then had his own Divinity torn from his existence. This is why he died. So he faced the wrath of God both with body and soul; as well as soul having been separated from body and cast into hades / Sheol.


Daniel 9:
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The "cutting off" of the Messiah commenced "the great tribulation".

The "destroy the city and sanctuary" commenced with the "great tribulation" and ended 40 years later with the destruction of the city.


27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The entry into Jerusalem commenced the Sunday before the resurrection. Rising from the dead was the final act of the "confirmation of the covenant."

In the "middle of the week" which commenced Wednesday the "sacrifice and oblation" ceased; because that commenced the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth".

We know "the sun darkened and moon does not give its light" happens "immediately after the tribulation". (Matthew 24:29) Our Scriptural record of this phenomena clearly states that this happens at the crucifixion. Here is how we know "the great tribulation" proceeded Jesus's death.
 
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The Righterzpen

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I never stated that 70ad was the destruction of the literal cosmos, so it's not me your contesting with.

Again, I believe the figurative, parabolic, and apocalyptic "earth and heaven shaking" language is in reference to the destruction of the old covenant system, not the literal destruction of the cosmos.

You're belief (that the destruction of Jerusalem is what's referenced in the language that speaks of the destruction of the cosmos) doesn't line up with Scripture though.

Prior to Jesus' death everyone was in the grave (sheol/hades), i agree

I disagree that the transition from the grave (sheol/hades) to heaven for believer occurred after Jesus' death, and would argue it occurred after 66-70ad.

Where was "the holy city" after the resurrection? Seeing how you do agree that the new Jerusalem does exist prior to the destruction of the current cosmos.

Those that rose "after Christ's resurrection" and "walked around in the holy city"; where did they go if no one was released from hades / Sheol until after 70 AD?

By your admission, those that were sold into slavery after Jerusalem's destruction didn't die in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Yet you conveniently leave out that they died before they ever got to the mines in Egypt. This is what Josephus tells us. These people starved to death. Some of which came at the hand of their captors; some of which was self inflicted. Yet Josephus is still really clear that everyone who was in Jerusalem were killed. No one out of the city itself was taken captive.

I disagree with your interpretation of 2 corinthians 5:8. The context of when our earthly home is destroyed, then we have a heavenly house, is in regards to inheritance at the resurrection, and not the soul going to heaven upon death.

What is the "earthy home" that is "destroyed" and what happens when believers die then?

2 corinthians 5:1-5 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it ona we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

ephesians 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,e to the praise of his glory.

These two passages explain that the completion of one's redemption comes at the final resurrection. Where does a believer's soul go though from the point that they die to the point of the final resurrection?

And if Jesus established the Kingdom and that is evidenced by the resurrection; why would believers have to wait until 70 AD to be let out of hades / Sheol?

When Stephen died; where'd his soul go?

Then you have this passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

All of this that he's speaking of happened before the destruction of Jerusalem and he distinctly explains that these people are "with the Lord". So if they weren't released from hades / Sheol until after the destruction of Jerusalem; Eh.... what's going on here??

Your position doesn't stand up to the whole of Scripture.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Nope. A docetae believes that when Jesus was on earth he did not have a real flesh or blood body, but a phantom body. I do not believe that. Therefore, your assertion is incorrect.

So you believe Jesus rose bodily, believers rise bodily. (Do you believe unbelievers rise bodily?) Yet this current earth is "the new heavens and new earth"? Do you see how that does not make sense?

All I know is that the resurrected body is 1.) not a natural body as we have now and 2.) it is a spiritual body as Paul states.

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Whatever we will be like, it will be like Jesus in his glorified state:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

It will be a heavenly body, "like" the angels, NOT the "same" as an angel.

The passage "like angels who neither marry or are given in marriage" has nothing to do with the sate of a "spiritual body" as you are assuming it does.

That statement was in context of no one in the new heavens and new earth reproduces. There's no need to; because there is no more death.

From this statement, it's obvious that you don't actually know my position. So instead of creating strawman arguments, maybe ask or inquire before making untrue statements.

I never stated the resurreted body is the "same" as the heavenly body of the angel.

Now you're backtracking again; but hey, at least now it appears you see your error.

I agree that Jesus' point was that marriage is for those on earth not for those who partake in the resurrection. Marriage is an earthly symbol of Christ and the church (galatians 5), and therefore the shadow become reality at the resurrection. I never stated otherwise.

This isn't why Jesus made that statement about angels and marriage either though. The reason he made that statement is because of death; and there is no death in the new heavens and new earth.

Not quite sure what you mean by "the shadow becomes reality" LOL - seeing how again, the context of the statement had to do with death. Marriage is for the purpose of reproduction. Reproduction is necessary because of death.

The relational aspect of cleaving to another is present at the point the Holy Spirit indwells a believer.

It is the closest thing a mortal human will ever come to understanding the relationship within the Trinity. Which obviously it's no mistake that reproduction produces life. (God as the Creator likes to make life.)

I never stated otherwise. Not sure why you needed to explain that.

Because this is what you wrote:

The resurrection is physical/material = from natural body to spiritual body (like the angels). So No, I am not a docetae.

Mark 12:25 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:44 is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body

So......

Never stated the spiritual resurrected body of man was the "same" as an angel. I only stated it was "like". Please avoid strawman arguments.

Shall I remind you again of what you said?

I disagree with your interpretation that it is in regards to being born again. The context is in regards to the type of body when the dead are raised.

I gave you the entire context of what Paul meant by "spiritual body". And Paul did make a distinction between what is "spiritual" and what is physical.

The passage you quoted in 1 Corinthians 15; comes prior to the explanation I gave you in the rest of the chapter. And if you notice what he says; he talks about "what is sown can't come to life unless it dies". Yet at the end of the passage he says:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Obviously in this context, he's talking about physical death.

So "what is sown can't come to life unless it dies" is not talking about the final resurrection at the end of time. We know this because what Paul just said is that not everyone will "sleep".

In this I suppose one could make a distinction of what is meant by "death". One who's dead of no spiritual or physical life is "indeed dead". Yet one who's redeemed "sleeps". And I think the words used were chosen specifically to make this distinction.

Still, I don't know why you think it's so important to "make" all this connect to the destruction of Jerusalem? Why is Judaism so important to you; when all it ever was a shadow of what was to come. The substance of which is Christ.
 
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claninja

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Then Jesus is a liar; because He said "This day...."

There is no punctuation in the original greek. It was added later by copyists. Therefore, the interpretation of this passage should not be done alone in a vaccuum, but on the other counsel of scripture.

and he said to him Truly I say to you today you will be with me in paradise


I know this is what you want it to say, in order to support your position; but your translation does not jive with the structure of the sentence.

First off; note the context of what this is said in. Jesus is responding to the thief who says: "Lord remember me when you enter your kingdom."

(very next verse):
"And he said (to) him. Amen, (to) you (I) say: This day, with me you will be in (the) paradise."

Luke 23:43 Interlinear: and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

If it really were to read what you wish it would read; the Greek word order would be different.

Jesus doesn't say "Today, truthfully I say to you, you will be with me in paradise."

Now your error is further proved by the fact that:

"And Jesus said to him..." This verb "said" is aorist indicative active. Indicative means that the fact that Jesus spoke to him is portrayed in past tense because it is written down after it had happened.

Yet the verb "Amen, and to you I say...." That is present indicative active. Now if you remember from grammar lessons; an adverb modifies the verb. The adverb in this sentence is "this day". "This day" related to the verb "I say" which is in the present tense means that Today, (this day I'm speaking to you) you will be with me in paradise.

Now the "will" in: "Today, with me you will be in (the) paradise" is in the future tense because neither of the two speaking to each other have died yet.


This is greek, not english, so simply showing the tenses of verbs does nothing to support your argument or my argument.

1.) In the original greek, there is no punctuation. A comma would have been inserted by translators based on their beliefs.
2.) In greek, there is no rule whether an adverb has to be before or after the adverb its modifying, so from a pure grammatical standpoint you cannot prove that "today" is modifying "I say" or "you will be with me in paradise".

The only way to argue this verse is on the counsel of other scripture. According to other scripture, was He in paradise that day? No (John 20:17, Acts 2:31).


And.... He also says (while he's standing there talking to her) that he is (present tense) ascending to the Father.

So, please explain to me how Jesus is ascending to the Father at the very point he's standing on earth telling Mary he's ascending to the Father?

Already explained in post #359, but I'll post it again.

Jesus clearly states he has not yet ascended prior to the resurrection.


Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’

"I am ascending" is present tense. However, Jesus was not presently rising to heaven in front of mary, and wouldn't for 40 more days. Therefore, I would argue, it's in the same use as Jesus' evidence of God's present tense use of "I am" in regards to the future resurrection.


Matthew 22:31-32 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

When we take in the counsel of other scripture, we can see that Christ was not, in fact, in paradise the day he died on the cross, but was in hades.

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’


He told her not to touch him (because he hadn't ascended to the Father); yet people touch him later (and I'm sure Mary was included there). Did Jesus ascend to the Father twice? First sometime between meeting Mary at the tomb and the other women some time prior to the road to Emmas?

Right, which is why most commentators interpret it as mary "clingin" to Jesus and not simply touching him.

No, there is no mention of Jesus ascending twice in scripture.

Why did he say "It is finished" before he died then; and what does that mean, if he's in hades post death?

Scripture doesn't explain the meaning of it is finished. However IMHO: His propitiation for sins of the world on the cross, through his death.

Yet they are stating that this is what Jews believe (or would have believed); but this is not a confirmation that they agree with the Jews. If these men really did believe as you claim they believed; then they were wrong.

Where does it say "this is what the Jews believe or would have believed" in the quotes I provided? Not sure what your talking about....

Additionally, you are free to disagree with them. I wasn't using them as "proof". I simply provided these quotes from non full preterists, to demonstrate that partial preterists can believe the apocalyptic world ending language is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, regardless if you disagree.

Then where is the Scripture that speaks of the destruction of the cosmos? Because what people usually associate as language that speaks of the destruction of the cosmos; you are claiming is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

I don't believe the Bible speaks of the literal end of the physical cosmos. I believe that is secret thing, not revealed, known to God alone. I don't interpret figurative and parabolic language as literal.

God spoke to the prophets of Israel in riddles, visions, dreams, and parables and NOT clear language as he spoke with Moses.

Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

Hosea 12:10 spoke to the prophets; it was I who multiplied visions,and through the prophets gave parables.

Therefore all the "earth and heaven shattering" language of the vengeance of God is found fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem according to the very words of Christ Himself:

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Do you know what that verse actually says in the Hebrew?
"One generation passes away and another generation comes; but earth from antiquity stands."

Yes, olam can mean "antiquity", "long duration", or "futurity". However, your inserted translation of antiquity or ancient past times in this passage makes no sense.

I use thayer's translation, which is of one of "long duration"

b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֺלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ecclesiastes 1:4; other phrase: Psalm 78:69; Psalm 104:5, heavens and contents Psalm 148:6, ruined cities Isaiah 25:2; Isaiah

Ecclesiastes 1:4 A generation goes, and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever.

And so on what Scripture do you support your agreement that the physical cosmos can end some day?

Remember can doesn't mean will. I just believe it is a possibility. I'm not dogmatic about it.
 
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claninja

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Daniel 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

There are 70 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and Pentecost.

When Jesus rode into Jerusalem the Sunday before the crucifixion; this was when the redeemed (out of the Jewish system) "anointed the most Holy".

The wicked of "that generation" though plotted to kill him instead.


25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There are 62 weeks between the death of John the Baptist and the commencement of "the great tribulation"; which starts the Friday before the crucifixion with Mary (Martha and Lazarus's sister) anointing Jesus's feet prior to sunset Friday night. Sunset on that Friday night would have commenced the sabbath. "The next day" (Sunday) is the entry into Jerusalem.

The "great tribulation" ran from sunset Friday to sunset Friday.


John 12:
12 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

Passover began Thursday at sundown. They would have killed the lambs that afternoon. Passover lambs were to be consumed before sunrise Friday morning. The following sunset would have commenced the next sabbath.

The "week" of the "great tribulation" was to end upon the commencement of the sabbath following the crucifixion. It was "cut short" by the Passover though, which occurred at midnight when Jesus is confronted by the angel of death. The job of the angel of death was to pronounce judgement upon the first born; which brought about their death, by the removal of the breath of life.


The removal of the breath of life separates the soul (and spirit) from the flesh. If Jesus didn't have a Divine nature; he would have died from that encounter. Although that is not what happened even though from that encounter to the point he died physically; his soul was in hades / Sheol. This is where he "preached to the spirits in prison".

2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

The "great tribulation" is "cut short" of "one week". The "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth" commences with the day Jesus leaves the temple (Tuesday before sundown) and ends at the point that he dies. That is literally 3 / 24 hour periods later.

That night he goes to the house of Simon the Leper and an anonymous woman pours oil over his head. He says: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 26:6-12)

That event commenced his burial. (3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.) Jesus connects this to Jonah in the whale's belly. "I cried to you from hell." This is how it's descried in the book of Jonah.

The state of being under the wrath of God isn't "hades or Sheol" as it pertains to the literal "holding place". Those who are raised at the end of time to face the wrath of God, do so in both body and soul as one entity.

So yes, Jesus faced being forsaken by the totality of Divinity in both body and soul. He was forsaken by the Spirit, forsaken by the Father and then had his own Divinity torn from his existence. This is why he died. So he faced the wrath of God both with body and soul; as well as soul having been separated from body and cast into hades / Sheol.


Daniel 9:
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The "cutting off" of the Messiah commenced "the great tribulation".

The "destroy the city and sanctuary" commenced with the "great tribulation" and ended 40 years later with the destruction of the city.


27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The entry into Jerusalem commenced the Sunday before the resurrection. Rising from the dead was the final act of the "confirmation of the covenant."

In the "middle of the week" which commenced Wednesday the "sacrifice and oblation" ceased; because that commenced the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth".

We know "the sun darkened and moon does not give its light" happens "immediately after the tribulation". (Matthew 24:29) Our Scriptural record of this phenomena clearly states that this happens at the crucifixion. Here is how we know "the great tribulation" proceeded Jesus's death.

Not one scripture you posted explicitly and clearly calls the cross the great tribulation.

I did not ask for YOUR interpretations on multiple passages. I asked for a passage that clearly calls the cross the great tribulation.
 
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claninja

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You're belief (that the destruction of Jerusalem is what's referenced in the language that speaks of the destruction of the cosmos) doesn't line up with Scripture though.

I could say the same subjective argument against your beliefs without providing any evidence. Let's try to stick with more objective arguments.

Where was "the holy city" after the resurrection? Seeing how you do agree that the new Jerusalem does exist prior to the destruction of the current cosmos.

I believe the New Jerusalem is body of Christ under the new covenant.

remember 3 phases of ancient marriage
1.) betrothal (husband prepares a place for the bride)
2.) consummation (husband returns for the bride and takes her back to his place)
3.) Wedding feast is ready.

After the resurrection of Christ until 66-70ad, it was in the betrothal state, waiting for the husband to prepare the house and return.


2 corinthians 11:2For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

John 14:2-3 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?b And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Following the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, the wedding feast was ready. Thus the body of Christ is presently in the wedding feast state. The good and bad are filled into the wedding feast, but those that do not have the righteous robes of Christ are cast out into utter darkness.

Matthew 22:7-10 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.


Those that rose "after Christ's resurrection" and "walked around in the holy city"; where did they go if no one was released from hades / Sheol until after 70 AD?

That's a good question. I don't know. Scripture doesn't say. So any belief would be a personal interpretation.

Yet you conveniently leave out that they died before they ever got to the mines in Egypt. This is what Josephus tells us. These people starved to death. Some of which came at the hand of their captors; some of which was self inflicted. Yet Josephus is still really clear that everyone who was in Jerusalem were killed. No one out of the city itself was taken captive.

If I conveniently left that out, please show where Josephus states the died before the got to the mines of Egypt. I can't seem to find what you are talking about.


"And now, since his soldiers were already quite tired with killing men, and yet there appeared to be a vast multitude still remaining alive, Caesar gave orders that they should kill none but those that were in arms, and opposed them, but should take the rest alive. But, together with those whom they had orders to slay, they slew the aged and the infirm; but for those that were in their flourishing age, and who might be useful to them, they drove them together into the temple, and shut them up within the walls of the court of the women; over which Caesar set one of his freed-men, as also Fronto, one of his own friends; which last was to determine every one's fate, according to his merits. So this Fronto slew all those that had been seditious and robbers, who were impeached one by another; but of the young men he chose out the tallest and most beautiful, and reserved them for the triumph; and as for the rest of the multitude that were above seventeen years old, he put them into bonds, and sent them to the Egyptian mines. 31 Titus also sent a great number into the provinces, as a present to them, that they might be destroyed upon their theatres, by the sword and by the wild beasts; but those that were under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Now during the days wherein Fronto was distinguishing these men, there perished, for want of food, eleven thousand; some of whom did not taste any food, through the hatred their guards bore to them; and others would not take in any when it was given them. The multitude also was so very great, that they were in want even of corn for their sustenance.

3. Now the number 32 of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straitness among them, that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly."

What is the "earthy home" that is "destroyed" and what happens when believers die then?

IMHO the earthly home = the natural body under the old covenenant. Heavenly home = spiritual body under the new covenant.

The context of not going naked but being further clothed with a heavenly home is clearly in regards to the resurrection of which the spirit was given as a guarantee.


2 corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

These two passages explain that the completion of one's redemption comes at the final resurrection. Where does a believer's soul go though from the point that they die to the point of the final resurrection?

IMHO the grave (sheol/hades) prior to 66-70ad. After 66-70ad to heaven

When Stephen died; where'd his soul go?

His SPIRIT went to the Lord
Acts 7:59-60 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

This was no different than PRIOR to the cross.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

All of this that he's speaking of happened before the destruction of Jerusalem and he distinctly explains that these people are "with the Lord". So if they weren't released from hades / Sheol until after the destruction of Jerusalem; Eh.... what's going on here??


I believe it refers to the Spirits of men made righteous through Christ, not the soul.

Hebrews 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect

IMHO Prior to 66-70ad, the soul went to the grave (sheol/hades) while the spirit returned to the lord as it always had (ecclesiastes 12:7).

Your position doesn't stand up to the whole of Scripture.

I could say the same generic and subjective claim against your position. Let's try to avoid this and stick to objective arguments.
 
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claninja

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So you believe Jesus rose bodily, believers rise bodily

Yes. I never stated otherwise.

(Do you believe unbelievers rise bodily?)

Yes.

Yet this current earth is "the new heavens and new earth"? Do you see how that does not make sense?

I can understand by interpreting parabolic and symbolic teachings as literal, that it would be difficult to understand.

The passage "like angels who neither marry or are given in marriage" has nothing to do with the sate of a "spiritual body" as you are assuming it does.

That statement was in context of no one in the new heavens and new earth reproduces. There's no need to; because there is no more death.

Do angels have heavenly or earthly bodies? heavenly

When are transformed will our body be a heavenly body or earthly body? heavenly

In that sense yes, our transformed bodies will be "like" the angels.


Now you're backtracking again; but hey, at least now it appears you see your error.

Where did I change from saying that our bodies will be the "same" as the angels to "like" the angels in order to support your assertion that I am back tracking?

Please, avoid false statements if you can help it.


This isn't why Jesus made that statement about angels and marriage either though. The reason he made that statement is because of death; and there is no death in the new heavens and new earth.

I agree.

Not quite sure what you mean by "the shadow becomes reality" LOL - seeing how again, the context of the statement had to do with death. Marriage is for the purpose of reproduction. Reproduction is necessary because of death.

Yes, it serves the purpose of reproduction, but not all married couples can have children.

I would argue the main purpose of marriage is to point to the now revealed mystery of Christ and the church.

ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

In heaven, this picture becomes the reality.

Because this is what you wrote:

Right, I said "like" the angels. Not the "same" as the angels.

Shall I remind you again of what you said?

Please do, because I can't find where I ever said that we will be the "same" as the angels.

I gave you the entire context of what Paul meant by "spiritual body". And Paul did make a distinction between what is "spiritual" and what is physical.

The passage you quoted in 1 Corinthians 15; comes prior to the explanation I gave you in the rest of the chapter. And if you notice what he says; he talks about "what is sown can't come to life unless it dies". Yet at the end of the passage he says:

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Obviously in this context, he's talking about physical death.

So "what is sown can't come to life unless it dies" is not talking about the final resurrection at the end of time. We know this because what Paul just said is that not everyone will "sleep".

In this I suppose one could make a distinction of what is meant by "death". One who's dead of no spiritual or physical life is "indeed dead". Yet one who's redeemed "sleeps". And I think the words used were chosen specifically to make this distinction.

And I disagreed as the context is in regards to what kind of body are the dead given when they are raised.
1 corinthians 15:35-36 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies

Paul clearly states a spiritual body

1 corinthians 15:42-44 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

In order to attain the physical resurrection from the dead, i would argue One has to actually die.
 
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claninja

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Still, I don't know why you think it's so important to "make" all this connect to the destruction of Jerusalem? Why is Judaism so important to you; when all it ever was a shadow of what was to come. The substance of which is Christ.

The destruction of the old covenant system in 66-70ad is important because Jesus mentioned it frequently throughout the gospels, especially when talking about the kingdom of God, and in regards to the vengeance of all the righteous blood shed.
 
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claninja

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Can you explain how the curse can be removed, and there still be a need for healing, or is the tree of life a symbol of the fact they are already healed in Revelation 22?

Does Christ now need to eat from the tree of life every day to keep from dying?


.

So is that a yes or no to nations needing healing in the NHNE?

Revelation 22:1-5 Then the angela showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of lifeb with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him

Again, I believe the new Jerusalem = the body of Christ under the new covenant.

In this new covenant, we have been redeemed from the curse of the law


Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

In this new covenant, for those that are in Christ and born again, the curse of spiritual death as been overturned.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.d Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

I believe the tree of life is symbolic for Christ, for he is our source of eternal life. Thus those who are in the body of Christ (the new jerusalem)partake of the tree of the life when they go to heaven. IMHO it is the going forth of the gospel that heals the nations.

The one who overcomes (believes in Christ) will be able to eat from this tree, which is in heaven.


revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

The scripture does not say the nations are already healed. It simply states the tree of life has leaves for the healing of the nations.
 
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The Righterzpen

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The perfect tense indicates a completed action in the past. However, in this passage it's modified by the adjective "Not Yet". Therefore, based on grammar, it was not yet completed.

Then, because this is "perfect tense"; it's declaring that Christ had actually already ascended. This jives with Revelation 13:8 which declares that Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"; which is also "perfect tense."

"I am ascending" is present tense. However, Jesus was not presently rising to heaven in front of mary, and wouldn't for 40 more days. Therefore, I would argue, it's in the same use as Jesus' evidence of God's present tense use of "I am" in regards to the future resurrection.

This term "I Am" though was not made in reference to the future resurrection. It was stated in reference to the fact that Jesus was indeed the Lord Jehovah who spoke in the Old Testament.

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus based on the accusation of blasphemy "because that thou, being a man, makes thyself God." (John 10:32)

Jesus was not abandoned to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption because of the resurrection.

There is no gospel or epistolic teaching that Jesus's soul went to heaven and then came back down into his resurrected body.


Acts 2:31-32 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Do you believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate?

It wasn't simply Mary touching Christ, it was her "clinging" to him. Obviously, Jesus' reason for Mary not clinging to him, is much different than Him allowing thomas to touch his wounds.

LOL - You think that word "touch" means Mary wanted to drag Jesus under a bush somewhere?

Do you realize that word "touch" (Strong's #680) is used 36 times in the Scripture? It is used for the most part of Jesus touching people and people touching him.

For example: Matthew 8:3 - Jesus speaking to a leper. "And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed."

Was Jesus clinging to this leper in a "carnal" manner?

Here's another example: Mark 5:27-31. This little old woman who has some sort of disease touches Jesus's clothing. And Jesus is like: "Who touched me?" And the apostles are like: "What are you talking about; everyone is touching you?"

That's the same word: "Mary don't touch me."

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Do you believe the souls of those that die reside under a literal alter? Or do you believe that this symbolic language?

Do humans possess a "symbolic soul"?

No, I don't see that as being "symbolic language". Souls "go somewhere" when the body dies.

And who is responsible for all the righteous blood shed? According to Jesus, 1st century Jerusalem.

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Note this is qualified "from Abel to Zachariah". What about the believers who've been martyred in the past 2000 years? Is 1st century Jerusalem responsible for millions of believers around the globe who've been martyred by communists and totalitarian regimes today?

And what does Jesus mean when he speaks of these peoples' blood coming upon that generation? Or rather is he talking about that "this generation" will see the destruction of that system? How is it God would hold me accountable for something one of my ancestors did 1000 years ago?

Sorry, you're kind of losing me here. According to your interpretation, The souls under the alter are born again Christians in the flesh on earth still or are the they souls of those that have been killed?

I was speaking of the "spiritual essence" (souls) of believers being raised as it relates to what Paul says about "spiritual bodies". What Paul was saying about "spiritual bodies" is not in reference to raising the flesh. Just as "8 souls" in the ark did not mean Noah and family were disembodied from the flesh when they entered the ark.

The ark represented Christ (even though Noah built a literal ark that survived a literal global flood). Redemption entails raising both the spiritual essence of a person, as well as a physical body.

"signs" in the heavens were in fact seen during the Jewish roman war. There multiple eclipses and a sword shaped comet.

Well there is conflicting reports of this. Josephus speaks of some "sword shaped comet"; yet the only thing the Roman's record was a comet that appeared in 66 AD; that they now believe was Hailey's comet.

There was a coin minted in 73 AD believed to be related to the siege of Jerusalem. The back of this coin though has Shofar trumpets with (what's believed to be a star) but is in the shape of a cross, between the trumpets. Some interpret the symbolism to be a star based on what appears to be other stars around it. Yet it's quite clear that no one recognized the cross as a symbol of Christianity at that point in time.

So it seems to me that the coin would simply be making a statement about Rome "bringing judgement" upon Jerusalem in the form of their symbolism of execution.

Now it is true the Romans did recognize comets, eclipses etc at omens; (comets particularly of impending judgement). But outside of what Josephus records; no one else records phenomena in the sky related to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Scripture is clear though that the darkening of the sun and the moon not giving its lite at the time of the crucifixion is a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

Not true, the olivet discourse, which is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the signs leading up it mention signs in the sky.

The destruction of Jerusalem is only a portion of what the olivet discourse contains. Not all the information there is pertaining only to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Classic false premise. I don't disagree with scripture. I disagree with how YOU interpret it, just as you disagree with how I interpret it.

So.... how does one know who's interoperation is correct? You do agree that we both can't be right; correct?

If students of the Bible are comparing Scripture with Scripture; isn't the goal to make all of it jive together?

See post #358 about my position on how long the earth will last.

You gave me a verse out of Ecclesiastes; in which I gave you the meaning of the Hebrew word used in that passage that you were assuming meant "forever".

"One generation passes and another generation comes; but the earth from antiquity stands."

Remember that?

Then you said: "Well I agree that maybe the cosmos will be destroyed; but we don't know when".

And then I asked you where do you get the agreement that maybe the cosmos will be destroyed, when all of the passages that people usually interpret as the destruction of the cosmos; you are saying is about the destruction of Jerusalem?

Others insist I answer their questions, to which I do. and as evidenced by me having to ask BAB multiple times, others often don't respond to the questions I ask.

Well I haven't seen where you've answered @BABerean2 's questions either. Both of us have asked in regards to the New Heavens and New Earth being a literal place of having no sin and no death (and "time is no more"); how does that jive with your saying the nations still need healing in the New Heavens and New Earth?

You insist that the "recreation of the heavens and earth" are related to the destruction of Jerusalem; yet we all still live on an earth plagued by sin and death?

This is confusing. You quoted my passages about both Jesus and revelation 6 quoting hosea, but did not address it, then go on to state you already explained these passages. Unless I missed it, You did not already explain Luke 23 and revelation 6 use of Hosea. Should I assume you are talking about different passages and not Luke 23 and revelation 6's use of hosea.

By using scripture to interpret scripture, we can clearly see that the 6th seal is in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, as Jesus quotes the exact same passage in hosea as being fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem.

OK; let's go through Hosea, Luke 23 and Revelation 6.

Hosea 10:8: (I'm assuming this is the passage you are talking about?)
The high places also of Aven (Comes from Hebrew word that means wickedness - it was also a city in Egypt), the sin (offering) of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.

Luke 23:30:
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Revelation 6:12-17 (I'm assuming you are talking about the 6th seal?)

I did go over this and how "and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood"; is different wording from "the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light."

The "sun darkened" comes from Joel 3:15, (also in Isaiah 13:10), Matthew 24:29 and its fulfillment was given in Mark 13:24 and Luke 23:45. (The sun was darkened at the crucifixion.)

Further we have the prophecy spoken of in Joel (2) being stated by Peter at Pentecost that this prophecy is being fulfilled. (Acts 2:17)

Joel 2:31:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

This correlates with Revelation's 6th seal that clearly talks about the destruction of the cosmos.

I explained that the commencement of judgement begins with the cross and ends at Judgement Day. The elect are judged in Christ at the cross (this is all about what the atonement has to do with) and the rest of the world is judged at Judgement Day. This is preceded by the destruction of the cosmos.

Now Hosea 10:8 speaks of the sin offering being destroyed and thorns and thistles coming up upon Israel's alter. If Hosea 10:8 is fulfilled in 70 AD, when the temple is destroyed; where is the alter that thorns and thistles are coming up on?

Yet if you say the sin offering is destroyed at the cross when the veil in the temple is rent from top to bottom; obviously the next 40 years of animal sacrifices are nothing but "thorns and thistles".

What scripture teaches that Christ took the elect with him to heaven?

You've explained your interpretations of passages, to which I disagreed with and offered rebuttals. Please don't conflate me disagreeing with YOUR interpretation as me refusing to hear the scriptures, and I won't do that to you.

The question here becomes does your interpretation jive with the ENTIRETY of Scripture? Not do you agree or disagree with me (or anyone else for that matter). Again, assuming you agree that two opposing views can't both be correct. How do you determine who's interpretation is the correct one?

Do you believe the parable of the net is about literal fish being caught in a net or a greater spiritual truth? If you believe fish, then at least your consistent with your interpretation of parabolic and symbolic language. But if it is the latter, then why are interpreting the parabolic language of Isaiah 66-65 and revelation in a literal way?

Are you talking about when Jesus tells them to go out once more and throw the net over the other side of the boat, even after they'd not caught anything all day? (He's using a historical event to demonstrate a parable.)

If that's the passage you are talking about; then both are true. They did go out and literally catch a bunch of real fish; yet Jesus explains to them that this event is to illustrate a spiritual truth to them.

Not quite sure what you're asking about Isaiah 65 and 66? Are they literal of figurative (or both)?

Much of what's conveyed about the atonement and God's salvation plan is put in parabolic language that's couched in historical truth.

Adam and Eve were literal people. Eden was a literal place. Noah built a literal ark and there was a literal global flood. Abraham was a literal person. Sodom and Gomorra were literal cities reigned down upon with literal fire and brimstone. Moses was a real person. Exodus really happened. Pharaoh and his army really drown in the literal red (or reed?) sea.

All these historical events were real; but they were also parabolic representations of redemption. And the real point of them was to illustrate truth about redemption.

Jesus didn't just symbolically take on sin, or symbolically address the wrath of God. Those were literal and real experiences of his. And the reality of that was demonstrated by the events that accompanied it. Yes there were literal earthquakes. The sun really went dark. The dead literally rose. Jesus really healed people that even medicine today can't fix. I'm sure you've seen non-verbal profoundly disabled people in wheelchairs. Those were among the kinds of people Jesus healed.

Please provide specific example of how I am being dishonest or twisting their words, otherwise we can all see your just making false accusations.

You agreed that they stated that Jews saw the destruction of the Jewish system as "the end of the world". No one disputes that.

You though have chosen to quote select passage from hundreds to thousands of articles / documents these men have written. Do these men in other writings contradict what you are saying they believe? (That I don't know.) I've said that I'm assuming they believed in a literal recreation of the literal cosmos (although you insist they didn't). If they really didn't; then they were heretics themselves. I don't believe that what you claim they believed is true though. I don't have the time or desire though to go digging through everything they wrote to prove your error.

So, if they really believed what you claim they believe; then they were heroics. If not; then they don't. Doesn't really matter to me. I only read commentaries for a better understanding of history; not to obtain theology from. I study the Bible with a concordance and a lexicon. (Although admittedly, not all the definitions in the lexicons are correct either. and I have found errors in concordances.)

As partial preterist I agree that this is in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, and NOT to the end of the cosmos and last and final judgment. I have not twisted their words, I have simply copied and pasted their words and stated I agree with them.

As a "partial preterist" myself (which I believe @BABerean2 is also); you sound to me closer to a full preterist. Or maybe more someone who's a partial post millennialist preterist?

Clearly Scripture talks about the destruction of the literal cosmos. And clearly we see that hasn't happened yet.

Try to avoid false accusation, especially if your not going to give an example.

If you can't give a full exposition of the entire body of writings of any of these three (or four if you want to count Josephus) men; to say you are not telling the entire truth is not a false accusation.

And yes, you've already been given plenty of examples.

I'm considering whether or not I want to address your arguments about the New Jerusalem? Admittedly, I've learned stuff just from looking things up, even if I haven't learned anything particularly from you. Call it "practice sharpening the sword"; LOL I don't know but, you've served to further confirm what I've already learned as the difference between truth and error.
 
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NerdGirl

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Can governments force you to be vaccinated?

Can they also force you to take a digital tattoo to prove you have been vaccinated?

The following is a debate between Robert Kennedy Jr., who is the son of JFKs brother, and attorney Alan Dershowitz, who recently defended the president against impeachment.

Deshowitz has said the government has a right to hold you down, and plunge a needle into your arm. He is one of the president's lawyers.



Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

.

Of course not. A vaccine is not a "mark". Revelation states that the mark will be necessary for doing business, for buying and selling. That's not a vaccine. I believe it will be either a tattoo or chip implant, which is already being developed.
 
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NerdGirl

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There is a difference between taking a vaccine, or a medication voluntarily, vs. being forced to take it.

Do you understand the difference here?

A researcher from your nation originally said 3-4 million people in the U.S. would die of COVID-19.
We now know he was completely wrong, after the whole nation was shut down based on his projections.
Millions of people are now out of work, based on this error.

.

No one should ever be blindly "anti-vax". Without vaccines, we would still be losing millions every year to horrible diseases like smallpox and polio. Anti-vax ignorance is the reason that perfectly preventable diseases like pertussis (whooping cough) and measles have been reappearing. Vaccines save lives. That is in indisputable scientific fact. And yes, I believe such vaccines should be mandated in certain situations, and definitely for school children, who are the most vulnerable population for illnesses like polio.

However.

I don't think that people should blindly accept a new vaccine on the market, just because the media and government have been fearmongering us to death over Covid. Covid has a 90+% survival rate and has not affected 95+% of the U.S. This is a panic response, and I'm not going to inject some new, barely-tested vaccine into my body because people can't figure out how to think for themselves. Covid is not the monster under the bed that so many people think it is.

Use your heads. God gave us brains for a reason. Use them. You can use that brain to understand when a vaccine is necessary, and when it isn't. Not every disease is airborne, or easily transmitted. For instance, I don't think every child needs a Hep A vaccine. The disease is barely present in the U.S. and is mostly foodborne; hardly a reason to vaccinate millions of children.
 
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claninja

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Then, because this is "perfect tense"; it's declaring that Christ had actually already ascended. This jives with Revelation 13:8 which declares that Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"; which is also "perfect tense."

It is modified by "not yet".

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

If I said " I have NOT YET gone to the grocery store", does that mean I have done the polar opposite, as you are suggesting, and have actually gone to the grocery store?

This term "I Am" though was not made in reference to the future resurrection. It was stated in reference to the fact that Jesus was indeed the Lord Jehovah who spoke in the Old Testament.

The context is in regards to the Sadducees not believing in the resurrection as they only read from the 1st 5 books, however, Jesus shows the resurrection is found in the law through his quote. Jesus is literally talking about the resurrection of the dead when He quotes from the law.

Matthew 22:23, 31-32 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question, And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus was not presently ascending in front of mary, he wouldn't ascend for 40 more days.

Do you believe Jesus Christ was God incarnate?

Yes.

LOL - You think that word "touch" means Mary wanted to drag Jesus under a bush somewhere?

No.

Do you realize that word "touch" (Strong's #680) is used 36 times in the Scripture? It is used for the most part of Jesus touching people and people touching him.

For example: Matthew 8:3 - Jesus speaking to a leper. "And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed."

Was Jesus clinging to this leper in a "carnal" manner?

Here's another example: Mark 5:27-31. This little old woman who has some sort of disease touches Jesus's clothing. And Jesus is like: "Who touched me?" And the apostles are like: "What are you talking about; everyone is touching you?"

That's the same word: "Mary don't touch me."

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Most commentaries agree with the following 2. I can't seem to find a commentary that states he ascended between mary and thomas, and that is reason that thomas can touch Him.

Elliots

"(17) Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.—The probable explanation of these words is to be found in the fact that she had cast herself at His feet with the customary reverential embrace of the knees, and perhaps to make doubly sure the fact that it was the Lord’s body, and that His words are meant to prevent this. The words themselves must be carefully considered. “Touch” represents a Greek word which means to “cling to,” to “fasten on,” to “grasp” an object. The tense is present, and the prohibition is, therefore, not of an individual act, but of a continuance of the act, of the habit, “Do not continue clinging to Me.” Her act supposed a condition which had not yet been accomplished."

Barnes

Touch me not ... - This passage has given rise to a variety of interpretations. Jesus required Thomas to touch him John 20:27, and it has been difficult to ascertain why he forbade this now to Mary. The reason why he directed Thomas to do this was, that he doubted whether he had been restored to life. Mary did not doubt that. The reason why he forbade her to touch him now is to be sought in the circumstances of the case. Mary, filled with joy and gratitude, was about to prostrate herself at his feet, disposed to remain with him, and offer him there her homage as her risen Lord. This is probably included in the word touch in this place; and the language of Jesus may mean this: "Do not approach me now for this purpose. Do not delay here. Other opportunities will yet be afforded to see me. I have not yet ascended - that is, I am not about to ascend immediately, but shall remain yet on earth to afford opportunity to my disciples to enjoy my presence." From Matthew 28:9, it appears that the women, when they met Jesus, held him by the feet and worshipped him. This species of adoration it was probably the intention of Mary to offer, and this, at that time, Jesus forbade, and directed her to go at once and give his disciples notice that he had risen.

Do humans possess a "symbolic soul"?

No, I don't see that as being "symbolic language". Souls "go somewhere" when the body dies.

I don't even know what a "symbolic soul" would be.

So you believe souls are under a literal alter in heaven, resting until the future 2nd coming, then correct?


Note this is qualified "from Abel to Zachariah". What about the believers who've been martyred in the past 2000 years? Is 1st century Jerusalem responsible for millions of believers around the globe who've been martyred by communists and totalitarian regimes today?

What about the others? Jesus doesn't charge them with all the righteous blood shed, only 1st century Jerusalem. 1st century Jerusalem is responsible for the source of all righteous blood.

And what does Jesus mean when he speaks of these peoples' blood coming upon that generation? Or rather is he talking about that "this generation" will see the destruction of that system? How is it God would hold me accountable for something one of my ancestors did 1000 years ago?

It means their destruction, which happened in 66-70ad.

I was speaking of the "spiritual essence" (souls) of believers being raised as it relates to what Paul says about "spiritual bodies". What Paul was saying about "spiritual bodies" is not in reference to raising the flesh. Just as "8 souls" in the ark did not mean Noah and family were disembodied from the flesh when they entered the ark.


Thank you for clarifying. I still disagree with your assertion, however, because Paul is clearly talking about the resurrection from the dead, not being born again.

1 corinthians 15:42-44 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Well there is conflicting reports of this. Josephus speaks of some "sword shaped comet"; yet the only thing the Roman's record was a comet that appeared in 66 AD; that they now believe was Hailey's comet.

Which is still a "sign in the sky".

There was a lunar eclipse in 68ad above Jerusalem

Javascript Lunar Eclipse Explorer for ASIA

Scripture is clear though that the darkening of the sun and the moon not giving its lite at the time of the crucifixion is a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

which scripture is quoted in regards to the "signs in the heavens" with Christ's crucifixion?


The destruction of Jerusalem is only a portion of what the olivet discourse contains. Not all the information there is pertaining only to the destruction of Jerusalem.

I agree. the olivet discourse is in regards to the signs leading up to the destruction AND the destruction.

So.... how does one know who's interoperation is correct? You do agree that we both can't be right; correct?

If students of the Bible are comparing Scripture with Scripture; isn't the goal to make all of it jive together?

I can't tell you that. You must work out your own salvation in regards to that manner.

You gave me a verse out of Ecclesiastes; in which I gave you the meaning of the Hebrew word used in that passage that you were assuming meant "forever".

"One generation passes and another generation comes; but the earth from antiquity stands."

Remember that?

Addressed in post 368.

And then I asked you where do you get the agreement that maybe the cosmos will be destroyed, when all of the passages that people usually interpret as the destruction of the cosmos; you are saying is about the destruction of Jerusalem?

Correct. Remember, God spoke to the prophets in visions, dreams, and riddles, and NOT in clear language like he did to Moses.

Numbers 12:6-8 and he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

"earth and heaven shattering language" in regards to God's defeat of David's enemies
2 samuel 22:8-11 “Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations of the heavens trembled
and quaked, because he was angry. 9Smoke went up from his nostrils,c and devouring fire from his mouth; glowing coals flamed forth from him.He bowed the heavens and came down;
thick darkness was under his feet.He rode on a cherub and flew;he was seen on the wings of the wind.

Isaiah prophesies of the "signs in the heavens" concerning Babylon's destruction by the medes
Isaiah 13:1, 10, 17 The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw; or the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them,who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold.

Earth shattering language at God's judgment coming upon Samaria.
Micah 1:3-4 For behold, the Lord is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains will melt under him,and the valleys will split open, like wax before the fire,like waters poured down a steep place.

Signs in the heavens in regards to the judgment of Pharaoh in Egypt.
Ezekiel 32:7-8 When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens and make their stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light. All the bright lights of heaven
will I make dark over you, and put darkness on your land,
declares the Lord God.

Therefore, I interpret the apocalyptic language (heavens and earth shaking, God coming down from heaven) of the destruction of Jerusalem in the same manner as of the nations in the old testament.

Well I haven't seen where you've answered @BABerean2 's questions either. Both of us have asked in regards to the New Heavens and New Earth being a literal place of having no sin and no death (and "time is no more"); how does that jive with your saying the nations still need healing in the New Heavens and New Earth?

You insist that the "recreation of the heavens and earth" are related to the destruction of Jerusalem; yet we all still live on an earth plagued by sin and death?

I answered BAB in Post #351, Post #353, Post #373

You insist that the "recreation of the heavens and earth" are related to the destruction of Jerusalem; yet we all still live on an earth plagued by sin and death?

The creation of the new heavens and earth originate from a "parable, vision, dream, and riddle" given to Isaiah from God.

I believe the NHNE is reference to creation being reconciled to God and free from the law through Christ's redemptive work and removal of the old covenant system, that was replaced with the new covenant. Thus, while we, in the body of christ, have been healed and our sin put away through Christ, the nations still need healing today, and thus the gospel shall go out to the nations until the end of time.
 
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claninja

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OK; let's go through Hosea, Luke 23 and Revelation 6.

Hosea 10:8: (I'm assuming this is the passage you are talking about?)
The high places also of Aven (Comes from Hebrew word that means wickedness - it was also a city in Egypt), the sin (offering) of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.

Luke 23:30:
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Revelation 6:12-17 (I'm assuming you are talking about the 6th seal?)

I did go over this and how "and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood"; is different wording from "the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light."

The "sun darkened" comes from Joel 3:15, (also in Isaiah 13:10), Matthew 24:29 and its fulfillment was given in Mark 13:24 and Luke 23:45. (The sun was darkened at the crucifixion.)

Further we have the prophecy spoken of in Joel (2) being stated by Peter at Pentecost that this prophecy is being fulfilled. (Acts 2:17)

Joel 2:31:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

This correlates with Revelation's 6th seal that clearly talks about the destruction of the cosmos.

I explained that the commencement of judgement begins with the cross and ends at Judgement Day. The elect are judged in Christ at the cross (this is all about what the atonement has to do with) and the rest of the world is judged at Judgement Day. This is preceded by the destruction of the cosmos.

Now Hosea 10:8 speaks of the sin offering being destroyed and thorns and thistles coming up upon Israel's alter. If Hosea 10:8 is fulfilled in 70 AD, when the temple is destroyed; where is the alter that thorns and thistles are coming up on?

Yet if you say the sin offering is destroyed at the cross when the veil in the temple is rent from top to bottom; obviously the next 40 years of animal sacrifices are nothing but "thorns and thistles".

This doesn't address Jesus' use of it.

Jesus has hosea 10:8b coming to fulfillment within is audience's life time. In regards to "yourselves and for your children".


Luke 23:28-31 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31For if they do these things when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?

From several commentaries on this passage, that agree it is in regard to the siege of Jerusalem.

Barnes
"If the Romans are permitted by Heaven to inflict such heavy punishments on me, who am innocent, how dreadful must the vengeance be which they shall inflict on the nation, whose sins cry aloud to heaven, hastening the pace of the divine judgments, and rendering the perpetrators as fit for punishments as dry wood is for burning."

Cambridge
"to the mountains, Fall on us] Comp. Hosea 10:8. Hundreds of the Jews at the end of the siege hid themselves in subterranean recesses, and no less than 2000 were killed by being buried under the ruins of these hiding-places (Jos. B. J. vi. 9, § 4). We cannot fail to see in these events something of what St John calls “the wrath of the Lamb,” Revelation 6:16. Even a terror is entreated as a relief from yet more horrible calamities."

Pulpit
"Verse 30. - Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. The allusion, in the first place, was to the awful siege of Jerusalem and to the undreamed-of woes which would accompany it; and in the second place, to the centuries of misery and persecution to which the children of these "daughters of Jerusalem" would, as Jews, be subjected in all lands."


Therefore, using scripture to interpret scripture, If Jesus applies hosea 10:8b to 70ad, then Revelation 6's use of it is in the same manner.

Are you talking about when Jesus tells them to go out once more and throw the net over the other side of the boat, even after they'd not caught anything all day? (He's using a historical event to demonstrate a parable.)

No, parable of the net in matthew 13.

Not quite sure what you're asking about Isaiah 65 and 66? Are they literal of figurative (or both)?

If God spoke to the prophets of Israel in dreams, visions, riddles, etc, and not in clear language like he did with moses, then why are you interpreting the NHNE in Isaiah as literal?

Much of what's conveyed about the atonement and God's salvation plan is put in parabolic language that's couched in historical truth.

Adam and Eve were literal people. Eden was a literal place. Noah built a literal ark and there was a literal global flood. Abraham was a literal person. Sodom and Gomorra were literal cities reigned down upon with literal fire and brimstone. Moses was a real person. Exodus really happened. Pharaoh and his army really drown in the literal red (or reed?) sea.

All these historical events were real; but they were also parabolic representations of redemption. And the real point of them was to illustrate truth about redemption.

Right, God spoke to Moses in clear language, UNLIKE the prophets of Israel. The events in the Law really happened (adam/eve, noah, abraham, moses, laws) , and also pointed to Christ. BUT to the prophets, God spoke to in visions, dreams, and riddles that needed to be interpreted.

Jesus didn't just symbolically take on sin, or symbolically address the wrath of God. Those were literal and real experiences of his. And the reality of that was demonstrated by the events that accompanied it. Yes there were literal earthquakes. The sun really went dark. The dead literally rose. Jesus really healed people that even medicine today can't fix. I'm sure you've seen non-verbal profoundly disabled people in wheelchairs. Those were among the kinds of people Jesus healed.

I agree. Jesus is the fulfillment of the OT. the shadow made reality.

As a "partial preterist" myself (which I believe @BABerean2 is also); you sound to me closer to a full preterist. Or maybe more someone who's a partial post millennialist preterist?

Yes, I would be on the spectrum of partial preterism that is closer to full preterism. But I am not a full preterist, as I don't believe all is fulfilled yet.

Clearly Scripture talks about the destruction of the literal cosmos. And clearly we see that hasn't happened yet.

As stated before, I disagree. So we will just have to agree to disagree.

If you can't give a full exposition of the entire body of writings of any of these three (or four if you want to count Josephus) men; to say you are not telling the entire truth is not a false accusation.

So then the men I quoted believe the exact opposite of what they wrote? I disagree. I know none of the men are full preterists, and do believe in a literal future heaven and earth recreation. But also believe in part we are in the NHNE as far as the gospel dispensation go and believe the earth shattering language of prophets do in part agree with the destruction of Jerusalem

So your accusation is still false, unless you can prove otherwise. If you want to claim something is false, then back it up.


I'm considering whether or not I want to address your arguments about the New Jerusalem? Admittedly, I've learned stuff just from looking things up, even if I haven't learned anything particularly from you. .

I would be interested in hearing what you believe about the New Jerusalem. Whether you believe it is a literal cube that comes down from heaven or if it is symbolic for a greater spiritual truth? Do you disagree with the comparing scripture that I used in regards to the NJ and the body of CHrist?

Call it "practice sharpening the sword"; LOL I don't know but, you've served to further confirm what I've already learned as the difference between truth and error.

In other words, your confirming your own confirmation bias.
 
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It is modified by "not yet".

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

If I said " I have NOT YET gone to the grocery store", does that mean I have done the polar opposite, as you are suggesting, and have actually gone to the grocery store?

And yet Revelation 13:8 "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (also "Perfect tense" - meaning something that happened in the past) isn't modified by "not yet".

If the atonement was actually completed before creation began; then what does THAT actually mean in the context of time? We have a "happened already" and "not yet" at the same time.

Can you wrap your brain around that one?

Jesus was not presently ascending in front of mary, he wouldn't ascend for 40 more days.

Yet what he says is both "present" and "perfect" tense!

Jesus says to Mary; tell my brethren I am ascending.. (yet he's standing right there)! So... can you wrap your brain around that one?

So, we have a couple of things to reconcile.
1. Tells Mary don't touch me; I haven't yet ascended.
2. Tells Mary to tell the brethren he is ascending (present tense).
3. Didn't ascend prior to other people touching him.

And this same word "touch" is used in other places where other's touch Jesus or he touches them; whereas very clearly in most of these passages would anyone conclude that these other are either clinging to Jesus or he's clinging to them.

You use this passage to object to me pointing out that Jesus said to the thief: "Today you shall be with me in paradise." And then my tying this to Revelation when the lamb slain appears before the Father to open the scroll and many appear with him stating they "came out of great tribulation"; (connecting the "great tribulation" to the crucifixion).

All this because you claim the great tribulation happened with the destruction of Jerusalem. All seeming to me just to support your believe that this cosmos won't ever be destroyed.

Most commentaries agree with the following 2. I can't seem to find a commentary that states he ascended between mary and thomas, and that is reason that thomas can touch Him.

So if he didn't ascend between Mary and Thomas and the same word "touch" is used in other Scripture which doesn't denote clinging to???

You still haven't reconciled these passages.

I don't even know what a "symbolic soul" would be.

So you believe souls are under a literal alter in heaven, resting until the future 2nd coming, then correct?

Yes, because if the soul is a real thing, how can it go to a symbolic place? But you can't see that what you said doesn't make sense; can you?

What about the others? Jesus doesn't charge them with all the righteous blood shed, only 1st century Jerusalem. 1st century Jerusalem is responsible for the source of all righteous blood.

Is Jezebel not held accountable for her own sin? What about king Ahab?

Thank you for clarifying. I still disagree with your assertion, however, because Paul is clearly talking about the resurrection from the dead, not being born again.

So what you are saying is that being born again is not being "raised from the dead"? Scripture would disagree with that. There are two resurrections. The first is to be regenerated from spiritual death; the second is to be bodily raised.

Which is still a "sign in the sky".

There was a lunar eclipse in 68ad above Jerusalem

Yet... this isn't a "sword comet in the sky"! It was a predictable event based on common sun and moon cycles.

which scripture is quoted in regards to the "signs in the heavens" with Christ's crucifixion?

Luke 23:45

I can't tell you that. You must work out your own salvation in regards to that manner.

You can't tell me that the goal of comparing Scripture with Scripture is to make it all jive together? I'm suppose to "work out" my own salvation as to whether or not Scripture jives together? My interpretation is jiving better than yours.

Correct. Remember, God spoke to the prophets in visions, dreams, and riddles, and NOT in clear language like he did to Moses.

Yet the fulfillment of that symbolic language is suppose to be in symbolic terms? If that's the case; what's the point of the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection?

The creation of the new heavens and earth originate from a "parable, vision, dream, and riddle" given to Isaiah from God.

I believe the NHNE is reference to creation being reconciled to God and free from the law through Christ's redemptive work and removal of the old covenant system, that was replaced with the new covenant. Thus, while we, in the body of christ, have been healed and our sin put away through Christ, the nations still need healing today, and thus the gospel shall go out to the nations until the end of time.

Yet if you don't believe the cosmos will be destroyed, then when is the end of time?

Your eschatological system doesn't make sense and doesn't line up with Scripture even though you vehemently disagree with me.

You haven't convinced me; I'm not going to convince you, so what's the point of this conversation? What are you seeking to accomplish in this?
 
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