Do Christians actually believe in God?

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
hospitals, medical advances and universal human rights,

Those things also have been and are highly influenced by Christianity.

*They are also answers to prayers.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Tone said:
The "Founding Fathers" were highly influenced by Christianity, as well as everything to do with the U.S.A..

Making it even more remarkable that they made the deliberate decision that it should play absolutely no part in the US constitution.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Tone said:
Those things also have been and are highly influenced by Christianity.

*They are also answers to prayers.

Prove it.
Because there were healers and hospitals long before Christianity, and outside Christian countries. And I've never seen or heard of a hospital magically appearing in answer to a Christian prayer.

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Making it even more remarkable that they made the deliberate decision that it should play absolutely no part in the US constitution.

There are no absolutes in the human experience.

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
magically

It's somewhere in this realm that you are getting hung up..."luck" and "magic" seem to be themes with you.

Your understanding of belief and faith is greatly skewed.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Tone said:
There are no absolutes in the human experience.

Tone said:
It's somewhere in this realm that you are getting hung up..."luck" and "magic" seem to be themes with you.

Your understanding of belief and faith is greatly skewed.

Don't take things so literally. These things are perfectly acceptable in conversational English.
Are you planning to engage with the questions asked in the OP at all? Because so far, you haven't.

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Don't take things so literally. These things are perfectly acceptable in conversational English.
Are you planning to engage with the questions asked in the OP at all? Because so far, you haven't.

My point was it's more a matter of who we are rather than what we say, that are the true prayers.

I have a dear friend that passed from this existence who would say (when I asked for certain prayers), "Oh, whenever I'm going about my business and you come to my mind, I'm praying for you." (Paraphrase)

I believe what he was getting at is expressed here:

Romans 8:26
"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Tone said:
My point was it's more a matter of who we are rather than what we say, that are the true prayers.

I have a dear friend that passed from this existence who would say (when I asked for certain prayers), "Oh, whenever I'm going about my business and you come to my mind, I'm praying for you." (Paraphrase)

I believe what he was getting at is expressed here:

Romans 8:26
"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

Thank you. I see your point. But is it a believable one?
Take a look at the Prayer Forum.
Prayer Wall
Do these Christians look like they are holding back? Read the prayers and you will see them speaking earnestly and with sincere feeling. They are asking God for help, often with great and terrible issues. What you are positing is some kind of conspiracy, in which Christians agree to pray two types of prayers, the trivial ones for public view, and the sincere or serious ones for privacy. Now while it is quite believable that humans, on average, do tend to pray in different ways when in public and when they're alone, it is not believable that there is a bright line dividing them.
So again, I have to ask: for the Christians who believe that God does answer their prayers when they ask Him for things, why do they only ever ask Him for things that might happen anyway?

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Thank you. I see your point. But is it a believable one?
Take a look at the Prayer Forum.
Prayer Wall
Do these Christians look like they are holding back? Read the prayers and you will see them speaking earnestly and with sincere feeling. They are asking God for help, often with great and terrible issues. What you are positing is some kind of conspiracy, in which Christians agree to pray two types of prayers, the trivial ones for public view, and the sincere or serious ones for privacy. Now while it is quite believable that humans, on average, do tend to pray in different ways when in public and when they're alone, it is not believable that there is a bright line dividing them.
So again, I have to ask: for the Christians who believe that God does answer their prayers when they ask Him for things, why do they only ever ask Him for things that might happen anyway?

You missed the whole part about the Spirit's Intercession, huh.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 2, 2020

Tone said:
You missed the whole part about the Spirit's Intercession, huh.

Do you do all your debating like this? It's remarkably ineffective.

Tone · Oct 2, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Do you do all your debating like this? It's remarkably ineffective.

My prayers for you are quite effective, I assure you.

!

Par5 · Oct 2, 2020

Tone said:
My prayers for you are quite effective, I assure you.

!

I doubt that very much!
For example, claims that prayer was responsible for getting rid of someone's cancer, or some other life-threatening illness, do not seem to take into account that many people recover from serious illness whether they were prayed for or not. It's easy to claim prayer works in such cases when recovery could have happened anyway. I suggest trying to pray for an amputee to get a new limb and see how well that works.
When some American states were recently ravaged by hurricanes and fires, I am sure that many people prayed that the storm would miss them and the fires extinguish thus avoiding death and destruction, but no, death and destruction it was.
I am sure those that did pray in an attempt to divert disaster did so because of what the bible says.
Two verses spring to mind. Matthew 18-19, and John 15-7.
These verses seem pretty clear as to their meaning, so either no one was praying, or if they were, then what the bible says is just not true.
Of course, a possible Christian take on these verses is, "Oh, I know that's what it says, but that is not what it means."

InterestedAtheist · Oct 2, 2020

Tone said:
My prayers for you are quite effective, I assure you.

!

Just as @Par5 said.
Do you not realise that, here on a debating forum, saying "I promise what I say is right" means less than nothing?
Less than nothing, because if you actually had something to say you'd use that; and the fact that you don't speaks volumes.

Here we go, then. How about this:
"I assure you that God really doesn't exist and that one day you'll realise that."

See how useless it is to assure us that your prayers are effective?

cloudyday2 · Oct 2, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
There is if the religions say - which they do - that they are the only true religion, and all others are false. I have never met, nor imagine I could meet, a Christian who believes he or she received a miracle that was sent by a God other than the Christian God.

Let's take the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus and pretend that it happened exactly as in the story. There would have been Hebrews who credited the miracle to Yahweh, but there could have also been Egyptian soldiers who credited the miracle to an Egyptian water god. The fact that the Hebrew and the Egyptian EXPLANATIONS for the miracle might have been incompatible would not have invalidated their experiences.

That is why I label my account "generic theist". I suspect there is a God who acts in the lives of all sorts of believer without concern for the particular religious beliefs. A Christian might report an experience of Jesus telling him something using Christian lingo, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Christian theology is correct. Maybe God isn't too concerned what people believe but works to influence people and events using the religious language they understand.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 2, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Let's take the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus and pretend that it happened exactly as in the story. There would have been Hebrews who credited the miracle to Yahweh, but there could have also been Egyptian soldiers who credited the miracle to an Egyptian water god. The fact that the Hebrew and the Egyptian EXPLANATIONS for the miracle might have been incompatible would not have invalidated their experiences.

That is why I label my account "generic theist". I suspect there is a God who acts in the lives of all sorts of believer without concern for the particular religious beliefs. A Christian might report an experience of Jesus telling him something using Christian lingo, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Christian theology is correct. Maybe God isn't too concerned what people believe but works to influence people and events using the religious language they understand.

Hello Cloudyday,
Well, if those are your beliefs then I won't argue. But in this thread I am referring to Christians - and more specifically, to Christians who do believe that God answers prayers and does help them in perceptible ways.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 2, 2020

Tone said:
There are no absolutes in the human experience.

Do you concede the point that the Founding Fathers made the deliberate decision that Christianity should play absolutely no part in the US constitution? Using the word "absolute" in the everyday English sense, rather than the precisely mathematical sense, of course!

Arc F1 · Oct 2, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
What about faith? Some believers agree with us atheists that the evidence for God is weak, even nonexistent. Many concur that the arguments for God are ultimately unconvincing unless you are predisposed to believe. It all comes down to faith, they say. Faith would be unnecessary, they remind us, if God’s existence were proved to be a blunt fact of reality. There would be no way to separate the (good) believers from the (bad) unbelievers. Since faith is a virtue, proof of God’s existence would deny us the opportunity to impress God with our character. If belief were easy, it would count for little in demonstrating our loyalty and trust of our Father. But this is a huge cop out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are admitting that the assertion can’t be taken on its own merits. If something is true, we don’t invoke faith. Instead, we use reason to prove it. Faith is intellectual bankruptcy. With faith, you don’t have to put any work into proving your case or overcoming objections. You can “just believe.” Truth does not ask to be believed. It asks to be tested. Scientists do not join hands every Saturday or Sunday and sing, “Yes, gravity is real! I know gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down, down. Amen!” If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about the concept.

Faith is actually agnosticism. Faith is what you use when you don’t have knowledge. When someone says, “The meeting is at 7:30, I believe,” they are expressing some doubt. When you tack “I believe” onto a comment, does that make it stronger? If faith is valid, then anything goes. Muslims believe in Allah by faith, so they must be right. The Hindus are right. The Greeks and Romans were right. More people claim to have seen or been healed by Elvis Presley than ever claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus. With faith, everybody is right. Suppose an atheist, refusing to look at any religious claims, were to say, “You must have faith that there is no God. If you believe in your heart that nothing transcends nature and that humanity is the highest judge of morality, then you will know that atheism is true. That will make you a better person.” Wouldn’t the Christians snicker? Hebrews 11:1 says, “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” In other words, faith is the evidence of non-evidence. It is a free lunch, a perpetual motion machine. It’s a way to get there by not doing any work. Hebrews 11:6 says, “Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is.” Even the bible admits that you can’t know if God exists. You have to “believe that he is.” Abracadabra.

Barker, Dan. Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists (pp. 100-102). Ulysses Press. Kindle Edition.

What proof would you accept? If you truly are seeking God what will it take to convince you of his existence?

LightBearer · Oct 2, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Good point, and thank you for correcting me. I'm happy to accept that Christians do not believe God exists inside our universe.
How about if I say that Christians believe that the reality they live in is that God exists - which is rather strange, because they act like He doesn't, as detailed in my OP.

Hi InterestedAtheist and thank you for your friendly and polite reply.

Yeah, I hear what your saying.

Actually, true christians are awaiting the coming of God's Kingdom, the one that Jesus taught us to pray for:

Matt 6:9,10 “You must pray, then, this way:“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth. . ."

God's Kingdom government under the rule of God's appointed King, Christ Jesus, will bring about the doing of God's will on the earth as it is done in heaven. What will that mean for those who live on the earth:

No more food shortages, no more sickness, no more pain and suffering, no more death.

Psalm 72:1-16 "O God, give your judgments to the king (Prophetically Christ Jesus). . . In his days the righteous will flourish, And peace will abound until the moon is no more. He will have subjects from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. . . There will be an abundance of grain on the earth; On the top of the mountains it will overflow."

Isa 33:24 "And no resident will say: “I am sick.”The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error."

Isa 35:5,6 "At that time the eyes of the blind will be opened,And the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. At that time the lame will leap like the deer,And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy."

Rev 21:3,4 "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

That Kingdom government will remove all human rule and it itself will govern the earth under the Kingship of Christ Jesus. The prophet Daniel, pointing forward to our day wrote:

Dan 2:44 "“In the days of those kings (Present human governments) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,"

So, in summary. When we pray for God's Kingdom to come, as Jesus taught, we are in fact asking Jehovah to bring about all the wonderful promises he has made towards mankind in the bible. An end to hunger, sickness, pain and suffering and even death. shortly, we will see the fulfillment of these wonderful promises of God, along with this assurance:

Psalm 37:9-29 "Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; you will look at where they were, and they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. . . The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it."

More on "God's Kingdom" here:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-study/what-is-gods-kingdom/
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/what-is-gods-kingdom/
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101996046

Stay safe and well.
LB

InterestedAtheist · Oct 2, 2020

Thank you. Honestly, I try to be more civil than friendly, because it's been my experience that people do not feel friendly when they are told that their most cherished beliefs are mistaken.

LightBearer said:
So, in summary. When we pray for God's Kingdom to come, as Jesus taught, we are in fact asking Jehovah to bring about all the wonderful promises he has made towards mankind in the bible. An end to hunger, sickness, pain and suffering and even death. shortly, we will see the fulfillment of these wonderful promises of God, along with this assurance:

Tell me, if you had severe toothache, would you pray to God to take it away, heal you and make you feel better? If a friend had cancer, would you pray to God to heal them? If you lost a vitally important document, would you pray to God to help you find it?

InterestedAtheist · Oct 2, 2020

Arc F1 said:
What proof would you accept? If you truly are seeking God what will it take to convince you of his existence?

I'm not seeking God. After many years, I have seen enough and heard enough to be quite confident that God does not exist, and that anyone who thinks He does is mistaken.
But I am seeking the truth. If God actually exists, I want to know.
I just thought I should make that distinction.

But what proof would convince me? Well, how about this? It seems a fairly reasonable list of things to expect, if the Christian religion is true and the Christian God is real.

Do Christians actually believe in God?

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

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Generic Theist

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Let the righteous man arise from slumber

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