Is the church infallible in Protestant theology?

Sparagmos · Oct 1, 2020

Mike McKinney said:
The parts about "one person's opinion vs another".

Catholics are always so condescending and insulting to Christians. You're all so ignorant that you just believe whatever crazy thing one of your leaders tells you.

You people insist you know what we're all about, but you never ask what we believe. You're always telling us what we believe.

And yet, the first person who says something about Catholicism, you jump up and scream, "That's anti-Catholic bigotry! You're a hater!"

You have this idiotic idea that Christianity is some kind of wild west free for all. You don't know or care that we have hundreds, if not thousands, of creeds, catechisms, and confessions that help to regulate the doctrines and practices of Christianity.

Why?

Goodness gracious. You may have put me on ignore so I do t know if you’ll see this. But I don’t think you are being fair or kind to the OP. I grew up Protestant (evangelical) and was subjected to all kinds of anti-Catholic rhetoric. I was told they weren’t Christians, which is a smear, and that they were all going to hell and were basically pagans because they worshipped Mary. My best friend, who was Catholic, had been told nothing similar about Protestants. I’m sure there are a lot of prejudiced Catholics but I’ve always found them to be far less judgmental of Protestants than vice versa.

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

Mike McKinney said:
The parts about "one person's opinion vs another".

Well Mike, I don't think you fully understood the point he was trying to make. Let me give you a different scenario. Let's say you and a friend of yours disagree on a particular interpretation of the Scripture, okay? One of you believes, the Bible teaches once saved, always saved - eternal security. The other one of you believes the Bible does not teach eternal security - that one can indeed lose one’s salvation. Now keep in mind, you both are Protestant Christians, and you both are God-fearing people. You both love Jesus. You both pray to the Holy Spirit for guidence. You both cite Scripture passages to back up your belief. Yet, you both have completely different and contradictory interpretations/opinions of Scripture in this matter. In Protestant theology, is there a way to know with absolute certainty who is right and who is wrong?

Catholics are always so condescending and insulting to Christians.

See post #11

You're all so ignorant that you just believe whatever crazy thing one of your leaders tells you.

So I guess calling all Catholic Christians (1.2 billion of us) "ignorant" is not considered insulting.

This quote also tell me you are quite unlearned when it comes to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I'm guessing you don't own a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Before making another fallible (and very foolish) statement regarding Catholic beliefs, you might want to get one.

You people insist you know what we're all about, but you never ask what we believe.

"You people?" Good one!

Heck Mike, I don't even know what Protestant church you belong to. That makes a big difference.

You're always telling us what we believe.

Oh, you mean like what you said above..."believe whatever crazy thing one of your leaders tells you." Lol! I think not. will need to thicken up your skin

You have this idiotic idea that Christianity is some kind of wild west free for all. You don't know or care that we have hundreds, if not thousands, of creeds, catechisms, and confessions that help to regulate the doctrines and practices of Christianity.

Well, you kind of explained Prostestanism all by your self.

"You don't know or care that we have hundreds, if not thousands, of creeds, catechisms, and confessions that help to regulate the doctrines and practices of Christianity."

This is so true, all with hundreds if not thousands interpretations of the very same Bible. Unfortunately, this is a far cry of unity.

Why

Why not?

Have a Blessed Day!

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

A_Thinker said:
Correct scriptural interpretation is enabled by the Holy Spirit ...

Well A.T. Then how would you answer the same scenario I put forth to Mike M.?

Let's say you and a friend of yours disagree on a particular interpretation of the Scripture, okay? One of you believes, the Bible teaches once saved, always saved - eternal security. The other one of you believes the Bible does not teach eternal security - that one can indeed lose one’s salvation. Now keep in mind, you both are Protestant Christians, and you both are God-fearing people. You both love Jesus. You both pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance. You both cite Scripture passages to back up your belief. Yet, you both have completely different and contradictory interpretations/opinions of Scripture in this matter. In Protestant theology, is there a way to know with absolute certainty who is right and who is wrong?

Have a Blessed Day!

Gregory Thompson · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
I was just recently reading an article from Catholic apologist John Martignoni, founder of the Bible Christian Society that sparked my interest. In his article he was talking about Protestantism, Church, and Authority. In his article, he pointed out that since no man is infallible, according to Protestant theology, the best possible scenario one can have in a disagreement as to what is or is not authentic Christian teaching between two God-fearing, Jesus-accepting, Bible-reading, Holy Spirit-praying men, is one man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says vs. the other man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says. Would non-Catholics agree this to be true?

If you answered yes, what about the church? What authority does the church have within Protestantism? If no individual within Protestantism is infallible and, therefore, no individual within Protestantism has the authority to bind any other individual to their fallible teachings..... what about the church? Is the church infallible in Protestant theology? Does the church have the authority to bind individuals to its teachings?

Since I started this thread in reference to Mr. Martignoni's article, I may refer to said article through out this discussion if you decide to participate. Thank You, and have a Blessed day

I looked up the word.

incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

I think the point to be gleaned from post reformation traditions is that no one is incapable of making mistakes or being wrong.

As it is written, may God be true and every man a liar.

Maria Billingsley · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
What authority does the church have within Protestantism?

It is "The Church" that encomasses all who are in the Body of Christ, the regenerated through the power of His Holy Spirit. This surpasses any and all man made denominations. This is what the Kingdom of God is made of with Jesus Christ of Nazareth as our KING. This is the Gospel. Be blessed.

OzSpen · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
I was just recently reading an article from Catholic apologist John Martignoni, founder of the Bible Christian Society that sparked my interest. In his article he was talking about Protestantism, Church, and Authority. In his article, he pointed out that since no man is infallible, according to Protestant theology, the best possible scenario one can have in a disagreement as to what is or is not authentic Christian teaching between two God-fearing, Jesus-accepting, Bible-reading, Holy Spirit-praying men, is one man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says vs. the other man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says. Would non-Catholics agree this to be true?

If you answered yes, what about the church? What authority does the church have within Protestantism? If no individual within Protestantism is infallible and, therefore, no individual within Protestantism has the authority to bind any other individual to their fallible teachings..... what about the church? Is the church infallible in Protestant theology? Does the church have the authority to bind individuals to its teachings?

Since I started this thread in reference to Mr. Martignoni's article, I may refer to said article through out this discussion if you decide to participate. Thank You, and have a Blessed day

Fidelibus,

These are excellent questions but there is a fundamental all of us - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant - need to remember if we are to remain faithful to Scripture. This fundamental is that all of us are sinners ('For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God', Rom 3:23 ESV) and we need to be redeemed and then we grow in grace (2 Pet 3:18 ESV).

Therefore, on this basis, I cannot support the infallibility of the Pope, Patriarch of Constantinople, Brian Houston of Hillsong Sydney, or the President of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Oz

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

hedrick said:
I'll take the challenge. The Presbyterian Church (USA) is infallible.

Wow, I must say, as a Catholic, this is the first time I have ever heard a Protestant declare their church to be infallible! So, as you took my challenge, I have another challenge for you. 1. Could you please name one decision the Presbyterian church (USA) has made that exercised the authority of binding and loosing that Jesus gave the church He founded? 2. Could you also show us one decision made by the Presbyterian church (USA) that was universally binding on earth, and which was also bound by God in Heaven? Being it is infallible, it should not be a problem. One would suffice, but if you can show us both.....great!

There's better evidence for this than for the Catholic Church.

Pretty bold statement, and I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

So I guess we'll see in future posts if Christian history backs up your evidence.

Have a Blessed Day!

OzSpen · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus,

Don't you realise that not even the apostle Paul was infallible in his teaching. However, what is the infallible standard. Paul made it clear when teaching the Jewish Berean Christians:

'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true' (Acts 17:11).

To discern the absolutes for us today, we don't go the Pope, Patriarch, head pastor, or president of the denomination. Check out what Paul said by comparing with Scripture and not with what the Pope pr any pastor says.

Oz

Albion · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
so there is not a single Protestant minister who can be guaranteed to get it right every single time they teach and preach on the Bible.... right? If not correct, could you please explain otherwise?

There is not a single minister who is GUARANTEED to get it right in any denomination, yours included. That's right. Infallibility is not a property of human beings.

However, the word of God is infallible and there is every reason to think that some ministers, and churches, do a good job of understanding it and explaining it to other people.

This principle is really not all that complicated.

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

hedrick said:
Of course. Why would I expect any human to be infallible?

Wait a second here.....On a recent post you said under Protestant theology, your church was infallible, but now you are saying all leaders, pastors, and or ministers in your church are fallible and what they preach and teach from the pulpit could be wrong?? What gives??

OzSpen · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
I was just recently reading an article from Catholic apologist John Martignoni, founder of the Bible Christian Society that sparked my interest. In his article he was talking about Protestantism, Church, and Authority. In his article, he pointed out that since no man is infallible, according to Protestant theology, the best possible scenario one can have in a disagreement as to what is or is not authentic Christian teaching between two God-fearing, Jesus-accepting, Bible-reading, Holy Spirit-praying men, is one man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says vs. the other man’s fallible opinion of what the Bible says. Would non-Catholics agree this to be true?

If you answered yes, what about the church? What authority does the church have within Protestantism? If no individual within Protestantism is infallible and, therefore, no individual within Protestantism has the authority to bind any other individual to their fallible teachings..... what about the church? Is the church infallible in Protestant theology? Does the church have the authority to bind individuals to its teachings?

Since I started this thread in reference to Mr. Martignoni's article, I may refer to said article through out this discussion if you decide to participate. Thank You, and have a Blessed day

Fidelibus,

I've just read some of the teachings from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). This is one of them:

CCC 100, "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."

Who said so? Who gave the Magisterium that authority? Did they appoint themselves? CCC 100 clashes directly with Acts 17:11.

Oz

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

OzSpen said:
Fidelibus,

Don't you realise that not even the apostle Paul was infallible in his teaching. However, what is the infallible standard. Paul made it clear when teaching the Jewish Berean Christians:

'Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true' (Acts 17:11).

To discern the absolutes for us today, we don't go the Pope, Patriarch, head pastor, or president of the denomination. Check out what Paul said by comparing with Scripture and not with what the Pope pr any pastor says.

Oz

Now Oz.... would you agree, everything thing you said here, outside of quoting Scripture directly, and keeping within the parameters of Protestant theology, is nothing more that your personal and fallible opinion that could be wrong? However, concerning Paul, I will give my argument of opposition very soon for I have other posts to address before yours.

Have a Blessed Day

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

OzSpen said:
Fidelibus,

I've just read some of the teachings from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). This is one of them:

CCC 100, "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."

Who said so? Who gave the Magisterium that authority? Did they appoint themselves? CCC 100 clashes directly with Acts 17:11.

Oz

Let me catch up on other posts first. However, if you remain patient, I will be addressing that matter in due time.

p.s. I find it very cool you have a (CCC), I just wish other non-Catholics would do the same!!

hedrick · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
Wow, I must say, as a Catholic, this is the first time I have ever heard a Protestant declare their church to be infallible! So, as you took my challenge, I have another challenge for you. 1. Could you please name one decision the Presbyterian church (USA) has made that exercised the authority of binding and loosing that Jesus gave the church He founded? 2. Could you also show us one decision made by the Presbyterian church (USA) that was universally binding on earth, and which was also bound by God in Heaven? Being it is infallible, it should not be a problem. One would suffice, but if you can show us

Have a Blessed Day!

Ordaining and marrying gays.

note that discussing the validity of this decision is not permitted in this forum. But it is one of the clearest uses of the authority given by Christ to the church.

Bob Carabbio · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
Is the church infallible in Protestant theology?

Absolutely!!!! The problem comes in when some "Religio/Political business system" (like the "Roman Catholic corp.", or the "Campbellite Church of Christ", or the "Assemblies of God") falsely convinces itself that It, in all it's flawed grandeur, is the Visible embodiment of "The Church of Jesus Christ".

Biblically, The CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST is that Spiritual body comprised exclusively of Born Again Christians From all ages, Living and physically Dead. The Church of Jesus Christ is PEOPLE - not Religio/political organizations - NONE OF WHICH even comes close to "Infallibility".

Swag365 · Oct 1, 2020

Sparagmos said:
Yes I totally agree with that. I’ve always found the idea that any human could be “infallible” absurd. We all make mistakes. And we certainly have a lot of sad examples of how far some religious leaders can stray...

Well I don't think that there are any denominations that teach that a human being is infallible. Would you find it absurd if at particular points in history, God granted particular leaders of the church (such as the apostles) a gift to teach others without error? I mean, Peter was not infalliable all the time, but when he sat down to write his books of the Bible, for example, he wrote without error did he not? When we see him preaching in Acts, for example, he preached without error didn't he? It is not like Peter was some genius, God gave him a special gift to teach without error in those circumstances.

I think it is the same concept, but it is applied to other people at later points in time. Nobody is saying that every word that has ever uttered out of the mouth of the pope is correct. . .

Philip_B · Oct 1, 2020

I think that most mainstream churches (those not in communion with the See of Rome) would prefer to describe the Church as 'indefectible', that is to say that the Church may be in error, but not substantive error as would see the church plunged into apostasy.

A look at early Church history where Councils made and revised and refuted decision of earlier councils would seem to suggest that. A consideration about our response to the idea of heliocentricity may well be another example.

I find this approach generally more intellectually honest, and does not require us to defend the indefensible.

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

hedrick said:
Ordaining and marrying gays.

note that discussing the validity of this decision is not permitted in this forum. But it is one of the clearest uses of the authority given by Christ to the church.

Chapter and verse please

Fidelibus · Oct 1, 2020

Bob Carabbio said:
Absolutely!!!! The problem comes in when some "Religio/Political business system" (like the "Roman Catholic corp.", or the "Campbellite Church of Christ", or the "Assemblies of God") falsely convinces itself that It, in all it's flawed grandeur, is the Visible embodiment of "The Church of Jesus Christ".

Biblically, The CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST is that Spiritual body comprised exclusively of Born Again Christians From all ages, Living and physically Dead. The Church of Jesus Christ is PEOPLE - not Religio/political organizations - NONE OF WHICH even comes close to "Infallibility".

Are you Infallible?

hedrick · Oct 1, 2020

Fidelibus said:
Chapter and verse please

Mat 16:19

If you're talking about support for the decision itself, that's not permitted in this forum under CF rules.

Incidentally, let me be clear that I am not saying that every decision by any PCUSA body is infallible. Even our General Assembly has done some boneheaded things. I'm thinking of situations where we are representing the faith of mainline Christianity on matter of faith and morals. We have every right (and indeed the responsibility) to exercise the authority given by Christ to his Church. Of course the flip side of that is that we'll be judged for how we used that authority.

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