Do Christians actually believe in God?

Arc F1 · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
"The book has withstood the test of time"? What is that supposed to mean?
Tell me: what do you think a history book is, and why do you consider that the Bible qualifies as one?

The test of time, meaning it has lasted a very long time.

The bible contains a historical account of events. I see that as a history book.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Arc F1 said:
The test of time, meaning it has lasted a very long time.

The bible contains a historical account of events. I see that as a history book.

The fact that a book has lasted for a long time simply means that people like reading it. That says nothing about whether it is true or not.

Why do you believe that the things that the Bible says happened, happened?

Arc F1 · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
The fact that a book has lasted for a long time simply means that people like reading it. That says nothing about whether it is true or not.

Why do you believe that the things that the Bible says happened, happened?

I have faith. It's the path I chose to take. I see no evidence that life is accidental.

SeventyOne · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
That's certainly impressive. But strange things do happen to the human body. I'm not sure if it clears the bar for "miracle" and if you would accept it as proof if you heard it from a believe in another god.

I'm not sure what your personal bar for a miracle would be, but as I said, one can't 'prove' God to you over a forum.

You do have the option of just going to Him and asking "if these things are real, then show me and help me understand".

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Christians believe that they live in a universe in which God exists.

Yes, this is the whole basis for scientific thinking; we are in a created universe that is able to be objectified.

InterestedAtheist said:
you'd expect to see other things too.

Like all the social institutions and technology you see post Messiah, e.g., hospitals (places of healing), medical advances (for healing and even bringing the dead back to life), charitable organizations (feeding and clothing the hungry), universal human rights (loving our neighbors as ourselves), etc...?

InterestedAtheist said:
You see Christians

Where have you been looking, in our innermost thoughts, hopes, and desires...in our private prayer closets?

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
see some statistical data showing up. Lots of it, actually.

Ummm, take a look at world history b.c. and a.d..

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
no luckier than anyone else.

Uhhhhh, I think the luck god might be Irish...or something...it's not the Christian one.

Kenny'sID · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
I think I'll let @SeventyOne and @Jeshu answer that for me! If you look at their posts, you can see them saying that miracles happen all the time. They have experienced miraculous healings and gifts from God. Kenny'sID, I find it strange that a Christian such as yourself should ask me why I'd expect to see reports of miracles, or why I should ask for them to be satisfactory.

And to answer your last question, a miracle that would be satisfactory to me would be one where there is no other answer for how did it happen than "The Christian God did it."

Which is why I'm asking: why do Christians only ever pray for things that might happen anyway? It seems like every time a miracle is reported, there is another possible explanation than "God did it." After all, lost things do get found every day, people and animals do sometimes recover from medical conditions on their own. Coincidences do happen, and sometimes people get lucky.

I asked you not them, and it's a bit telling you'll not answer

cloudyday2 · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Hello SeventyOne,
Thank you for your answers.
Forgive my skepticism as I answer them, but I hope you will understand: when it comes to miracles, the nonbeliever must apply a high burden of proof. If we were to apply any lower, then any "miracles" or mysterious happenings from any religion or person believing in the supernatural would have to qualify.

There is an area between "I believe" and "I disbelieve". You can be curious and uncertain.

Also, there is nothing wrong with believing that miracles are witnessed by believers of many different religions and even by atheists.

Nihilist Virus · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Christians believe that they live in a universe in which God exists. But the thing is, they don't act like that. And I kind of wonder why. They do pray to God, yes. And they do talk to God, on occasion, so they say. And they preach the gospel, and convert others, or approve of them being converted.

But if God was actually real, you'd expect to see other things too.

You'd expect to see Christians praying to God for actual miracles, and receiving them. But you don't. I've been asking about this in a recent thread, and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. You see Christians addressing God in the blandest and most carefully-tailored prayers. God, please give me wisdom, or insight, or determination. God, please give me faith. God, please strengthen me in my time of trouble. God, please help my sister who is facing cancer; grant the doctors the wisdom and clarity to heal her. There is something deeply weird about this. Where is the "God, please cure my sister of cancer immediately," or "God, my tooth is hurting. Please could you make the root vanish?" Or "God, my poor, innocent baby died. Please, bring her back to life."

More than that: while Christians I've spoken to in the past have assured me that God is not a jinni, a genie, a lab rat, a magical hat or a wishing machine, you would expect to see some statistical data showing up. Lots of it, actually. Consider. People all over the world are praying to their gods. But if the Christians are right, only one of these gods is listening and responding. And that means that the effects of this should be statistically observable. To put it simply, it should be apparent that Christians are luckier than non-Christians, because they have the edge of praying to a God who listens and responds. Not all the time, of course. Sometimes God answers prayers yes, sometimes no, sometimes later. But compared to the non-Christians (who, presumably, either don't get any answers at all, or else never even pray) it should be quite easy to observe effects on a macro level. But it's not. Christians, whether on an individual basis, or as populations, are no luckier than anyone else. Which is strange, if they are right about the Christian God exist.

You'd expect to see Christians asking God things, as well as asking Him for things. Almost all Christians claim they talk to God, and many claim that He replies - actually speaks to them in an audible voice. Isn't it strange God never, ever says anything that the person didn't know already? To forestall the obvious response, I'm not talking about asking God what the millionth digit of pi is, or to help you in an exam, or trying to trick or trap God. But Christians have a line to the Infinite Intelligence. Seriously, aren't there any questions they'd like to ask Him? "God, how can I persuade my son to stop doing drugs?" "God, can you tell me what the answer to the Euthyphro Dilemma is?" "God, there's this Bible verse nobody seems to be able to understand. Can you tell us what You meant in it?"
The incuriosity is quite amazing.

Another thing. Christians believe that a heaven and a hell exists, and hope that they are going to go to heaven. But they don't act like this. They are sad when loved ones die. They cry at funerals. Why? Their loved ones have gone to heaven. They should be happy for them. Yes, they will miss them, but in terms of infinity they will see them almost at once again.

Also, they believe others are going to hell. Except...do they? Do they seriously, actually believe this? If so, they are acting in a very strange way. They don't seem to care in the slightest. We live in a world, according to Christians, where some people (a few) will soon depart to a place of unimaginable bliss, and others to a place of appalling horror...and Christians don't seem to care, or to do anything about it. They just carry on with their lives.

Maybe it's because the Christian God doesn't exist. That is the view of the majority of people on this planet, and the supermajority of people who have ever lived, that the Christians are incorrect in thinking that their God exists.
If so, that would explain why God never answers prayers with miracles, and why God never answers questions. And it would explain why Christians never ask for them. They've learned not to. They've learned that there are some kinds of prayers God just answers, and while God may speak to you about being strong or being loving, He never tells you anything you didn't already know. And perhaps they've also learned not to think too hard about this, or have learned to come up with rationalisations for it.

This is another angle at what I call "Upping the Ante to Pascal's Wager."

Let's take Pascal's Wager to its logical conclusion. Let's grant that other religions are inconsequential, and we are considering just atheism and Christianity. Let's agree that the statistically expected outcome is positive for those who are Christian and is negative for those who are atheist.

Consider Bob. Bob doesn't actually exist because he is a person who heard what Jesus said to the rich young ruler and then did it. He sold all that he had, gave the money to the poor, and then wandered the world doing good works and preaching the gospel. He did not worry about what he would eat or what he would wear because he knew that if God provides for the birds of the air and the flowers of the field, then God would provide for him also.

Bob certainly has not diminished his expected outcome from Pascal's Wager. There's no persuasive argument that would say he is making Jesus angry by doing this. It's most likely that he has increased his expected outcome. He is likely to at the very least get riches in heaven, since Jesus promised such a thing to the rich young ruler as a reward.

Are riches in heaven worthless to Christians? I know that if you offered me a billion dollars for literally everything I own, down to the clothes on my back, so that I'm naked and homeless but I'm a billionaire, I'd take it in a second. But Bob is fictional. At "best" we see some monks selling all they have and living in seclusion, but they do not wander the world doing good works and preaching the gospel. Assuming that Christians would also take the trade of a billion dollars for everything they own, it follows that they either don't trust Jesus or they simply value a billion dollars over riches in heaven.

Furthermore, isn't it at least conceivable that Bob has a better chance of getting into heaven than those who do no works? I know that many Christians don't accept the necessity of works, but faith without works is dead. Also, Jesus will turn to some at the end and say, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Isn't it safest to sell all that you have and give to the poor?

Aside from doing good works, selling your possessions will help your walk with Christ. "If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out." So what should Christians do with their TVs? I certainly think TVs cause Christians to sin. What about their video games? Sell them and give to the poor. Bob has not only made his chances of getting into heaven greater than or equal to what they already were, and he is not only stockpiling riches in heaven, but he has a better walk with Christ. Is that not important to Christians? Would that not also make it more likely for Bob to get to heaven?

Taking Pascal's Wager to its logical conclusion, there is no Christian on earth. I have the answer to your thread. Do Christians actually believe in God? Nope.

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
God, please give me wisdom, or insight, or determination. God, please give me faith. God, please strengthen me in my time of trouble.

What you have failed to consider; whether you forgot, or are unaware, or you choose to ignore, is the very basic Christian understanding that all of these things you call miracles (and what the Christian calls restoration) are already granted.

We already know that we are heading toward the restoration of all good things.

So, in the interim, we pray for what is most important for seeing us through the temporal challenges that act as tests, readying us for our future glories.

*This eternal outlook shows even greater faith than what you describe...you set the bar too low.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Great points, Nihilist Virus!

Nihilist Virus said:
Consider Bob. Bob doesn't actually exist because he is a person who heard what Jesus said to the rich young ruler and then did it. He sold all that he had, gave the money to the poor, and then wandered the world doing good works and preaching the gospel.

Historically speaking, there have been a few people like this. But then, Christians used to be a lot more sincere.
I think perhaps the Thirty Years War was a big factor in beating it out of them. In many ways, this was a test of Christianity. Christians failed the test by being better people. They tried very hard to get rid of all of the people who were doing the devil's work - and they realised that if they did so, the world they lived in would be ruined. Faced with the choice of compromising their beliefs or losing the world they lived in, they compromised their beliefs. And so, the modern idea of tolerance was born, with Christians on both sides saying, "You may be evil and believe all the wrong things and bound for hell, and it's a terrible shame you're polluting the world with your ideas; but while we're here on Earth, we will have to at least agree not to kill each other."

Nihilist Virus said:
Bob certainly has not diminished his expected outcome from Pascal's Wager. There's no persuasive argument that would say he is making Jesus angry by doing this. It's most likely that he has increased his expected outcome. He is likely to at the very least get riches in heaven, since Jesus promised such a thing to the rich young ruler as a reward.

Well, exactly.

Nihilist Virus said:
Are riches in heaven worthless to Christians?

Apparently.

Nihilist Virus said:
Taking Pascal's Wager to its logical conclusion, there is no Christian on earth. I have the answer to your thread. Do Christians actually believe in God? Nope.

You hit the nutshell on the head!

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

SeventyOne said:
I'm not sure what your personal bar for a miracle would be, but as I said, one can't 'prove' God to you over a forum.

You do have the option of just going to Him and asking "if these things are real, then show me and help me understand".

Do I actually have that option?
Because I've taken it many times, as have many users on this forum.
We never heard back from God.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Tone said:
Yes, this is the whole basis for scientific thinking; we are in a created universe that is able to be objectified.

Ironic, then, that religion created the instrument for its demise...

Tone said:
Like all the social institutions and technology you see post Messiah, e.g., hospitals (places of healing), medical advances (for healing and even bringing the dead back to life), charitable organizations (feeding and clothing the hungry), universal human rights (loving our neighbors as ourselves), etc...?

Just because religion happens to have coexisted in the same historical period as hospitals, medical advances and universal human rights, that doesn't mean it gets to take credit for them.
In fact, it was religion that the Founding Fathers were thinking of when they decided to set up a country in which religion would have absolutely no influence at all on government.

Tone said:
Where have you been looking, in our innermost thoughts, hopes, and desires...in our private prayer closets?

Yes. The prayer forum on this website. Take a look. You'll find it's full of Christians sharing their innermost thoughts and fears.

Tone said:
Ummm, take a look at world history b.c. and a.d..

Like I said: we should see statistical data showing up to show God's existence, but we don't.

Tone said:
Uhhhhh, I think the luck god might be Irish...or something...it's not the Christian one.

Can I invite you to think about this carefully for a moment.
Point 1: Christians believe that God listens to prayers.
Point 2: Some Christians believe that they can ask God for things and that He will grant them. Not always, but sometimes. Not all Christians believe this - maybe you yourself don't - but let's discuss this point for the ones who do. Let's call them Christians Set A.
Point 3: Christians Set A believe that their is the one true religion, and that no other religion is true.
Point 4: Therefore, Christians Set A believe that God only answers(at least sometimes) the prayers of Christians. For all other people in the world, either they are not praying (atheists) or they are praying to the wrong God (members of other religions) and will not get answers.
All in agreement so far?
Point 5: Therefore, it should be statistically observable that Christians Set A - if their beliefs are true, about God sometimes answering their prayers - are statistically "luckier" than others. They certainly believe that they are. Take a look at what they're praying for and saying: Prayer Wall
See? Asking God for things, and thanking God for giving them things. Take a look at this very thread: people saying they asked God for things, and God gave them to them. Miracles happen. Luck. Happy coincidences.
Now any one of these could be written off as luck, or happenstance. But if it's happening millions of times to millions of Christians all over the world, you'd think it would show up, statistically, that Christians are luckier than non-Christians.
And if it was - if it was only Christians "getting lucky" at a higher rate than anyone else, this would be strong evidence that their religion is the true one.
But it isn't.
Maybe the real God of luck is Irish after all.
Do you see now?

Tone said:
What you have failed to consider; whether you forgot, or are unaware, or you choose to ignore, is the very basic Christian understanding that all of these things you call miracles (and what the Christian calls restoration) are already granted.

Hey, don't talk to me. Talk to your fellow Christians and tell them they're wasting their time asking God for things.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Kenny'sID said:
I asked you not them, and it's a bit telling you'll not answer

Telling? Telling what?
You pop up on a thread about miracles, full of Christians telling me about the miracles they have received in answer to prayer, and then you ask me why I think Christians expect miracles in answer to prayer?
Take a look at this:
Prayer Wall
See? Christians asking God for things, and celebrating how He answers their prayers by giving them gifts.
Or, as I said, reread this thread and see the people saying "I ask God for things all the time, and He helps me because He is a loving Father, and I have often seen miracles."
Do you not know your own religion very well? Or did you not read this thread?

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Ironic, then, that religion created the instrument for its demise...

Yes, religion as you understand it, will die, as will all else you see with your eyes.

InterestedAtheist said:
the Founding Fathers were thinking of when they decided to set up a country in which religion would have absolutely no influence at all on government.

Is this really how you interpret it?!

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
There is an area between "I believe" and "I disbelieve". You can be curious and uncertain.

Also, there is nothing wrong with believing that miracles are witnessed by believers of many different religions and even by atheists.

There is if the religions say - which they do - that they are the only true religion, and all others are false. I have never met, nor imagine I could meet, a Christian who believes he or she received a miracle that was sent by a God other than the Christian God.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Arc F1 said:
I have faith. It's the path I chose to take. I see no evidence that life is accidental.

What about faith? Some believers agree with us atheists that the evidence for God is weak, even nonexistent. Many concur that the arguments for God are ultimately unconvincing unless you are predisposed to believe. It all comes down to faith, they say. Faith would be unnecessary, they remind us, if God’s existence were proved to be a blunt fact of reality. There would be no way to separate the (good) believers from the (bad) unbelievers. Since faith is a virtue, proof of God’s existence would deny us the opportunity to impress God with our character. If belief were easy, it would count for little in demonstrating our loyalty and trust of our Father. But this is a huge cop out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are admitting that the assertion can’t be taken on its own merits. If something is true, we don’t invoke faith. Instead, we use reason to prove it. Faith is intellectual bankruptcy. With faith, you don’t have to put any work into proving your case or overcoming objections. You can “just believe.” Truth does not ask to be believed. It asks to be tested. Scientists do not join hands every Saturday or Sunday and sing, “Yes, gravity is real! I know gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down, down. Amen!” If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about the concept.

Faith is actually agnosticism. Faith is what you use when you don’t have knowledge. When someone says, “The meeting is at 7:30, I believe,” they are expressing some doubt. When you tack “I believe” onto a comment, does that make it stronger? If faith is valid, then anything goes. Muslims believe in Allah by faith, so they must be right. The Hindus are right. The Greeks and Romans were right. More people claim to have seen or been healed by Elvis Presley than ever claimed to have seen the resurrected Jesus. With faith, everybody is right. Suppose an atheist, refusing to look at any religious claims, were to say, “You must have faith that there is no God. If you believe in your heart that nothing transcends nature and that humanity is the highest judge of morality, then you will know that atheism is true. That will make you a better person.” Wouldn’t the Christians snicker? Hebrews 11:1 says, “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” In other words, faith is the evidence of non-evidence. It is a free lunch, a perpetual motion machine. It’s a way to get there by not doing any work. Hebrews 11:6 says, “Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is.” Even the bible admits that you can’t know if God exists. You have to “believe that he is.” Abracadabra.

Barker, Dan. Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists (pp. 100-102). Ulysses Press. Kindle Edition.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

Tone said:
Is this really how you interpret it?!

Are you claiming that the USA does not have a secular constitution?
Yes, that's how I interpret it. So did the Founding Fathers themselves when they said, in the Treaty of Tripoli, that the United States was not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian Religion.

Tone · Oct 1, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Are you claiming that the USA does not have a secular constitution?
Yes, that's how I interpret it. So did the Founding Fathers themselves when they said, in the Treaty of Tripoli, that the United States was not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian Religion.

The "Founding Fathers" were highly influenced by Christianity, as well as everything to do with the U.S.A..

Do Christians actually believe in God?

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