Temporal Salvation?

TibiasDad said:

That is your burden to bear, not mine to debunk! Yes, indeed, not all men believe, but nowhere is it stated or implied that it impossible for any man in general to believe, which is precisely what your theological picture has been painted to portray!

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But you know that is not true.
You already KNOW that Jesus PROMISED that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be believe or be saved:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


And again we see men who were NEVER MEANT to believe
or be saved.


Joh 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


So, your statement contradicts the WORDS OF CHRIST
(and I think you already know that). What do you do with
Mark 4:11-12 and John 10:26?

And yes, it is a very important part of the gospel! It is good news because there is hope for everyone!

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Obviously it is Good news for SOME... but not all.
There is no "good news" for those who were NEVER MEANT
to be saved [see Mark 4:11-12 and John 10:26 above]


The fact that you SAY there is hope for everyone does not
make it true... that is just your opinion and it contradicts
the WORDS OF CHRIST in Mark 4:11-12. Should we
believe your opinion or the WORDS OF CHRIST?

Not so for your gospel, if honestly presented, for you know that the large majority of those who might hear are chosen to be reprobate,

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No, do not misrepresent me.
I have said clearly that ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD
and destined to Hell. They are not "chosen to be reprobate"
they are born spiritually DEAD because a Righteous God told
Adam that would be the result of his rebellion. And a Righteous
God cannot LIE.


All men being BORN spiritually DEAD and slaves to Satan
is NOT the same as being "chosen to be reprobate".
Please be intellectually honest with my position.

The only question that matters is if there is hope for every man who hears the gospel! Yours, in my humble opinion, does not!
Doug

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Is there hope for those in Mark 4:11-12?
Is there hope for those in John 10:26?


No... you must admit there is NO HOPE for either class
of people. They were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


Moreover,
Jesus explained very clearly that the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
(the church) consists of both saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God
and destined to eternal life and unsaved "tares/goats" sown by
Satan and destined to the SAME FIRE prepared for Satan and
his demons [Mat 25:41]


Those unsaved "tares/goats" sown in the church by Satan
HEAR THE GOSPEL. Can they suddenly decide to become
saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God? No, they are "tares".
They were NEVER MEANT to be saved. That is clear.


And so your "theory" that everyone who hears the Gospel
can become saved is proven to contradict Scripture.


Let me give you another example:
The LAST "wheat and tares" on earth, living in the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] are called "wise virgins"
[saved wheat] and "foolish virgins" [unsaved tares].


The "wise virgins" are taken in the Final Harvest into the Marriage
[Mat 25:10] and the "DOOR IS SHUT". The "foolish virgins",
who thought they were saved, complain they should be included.
They are told to depart [see Mat 7:21-23 and Luke 13:23-28 where
the DOOR IS SHUT... all these were NEVER MEANT to be saved]


Now... could the "foolish virgins" suddenly decide to become
"wise virgins"? No, they "went forth" into the Kingdom [Mat 25:1]
already unsaved... they were never elect.. they are another group
of people NEVER MEANT to be saved.


Doug, there are SO MANY examples of people who were
NEVER MEANT to be saved. These are just a FEW examples.
But these few examples DESTROY a gospel that teaches that
ALL MEN have the potential to be saved.


I see this as a difference of perspective.
Knowing that ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD and destined
to eternal torment, I find "good news" that SOME MEN are
"chosen" or "elected" to escape that fate. You seem to feel
that it is not fair if ALL MEN are not "chosen" or "elected" to
escape that fate.


In any case, the Bible is clear that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved... so you need to harmonize
that reality into your gospel.


Jim

BNR32FAN said:

Ok did His apostles hear that parable and understand? No they didn’t.

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And that is why Jesus said this:
(why do you ignore the Words of Christ?)


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:


Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.


Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.



.

BNR32FAN said:

No not at all, just your misinterpretation of it. You can’t deny that punishing someone for all eternity in agonizing torture for failing to meet expectations that they are completely incapable of meeting is unjust.

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That is a false statement.
Because of Adam ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD
and destined to hell. The fact that God decided to elect
SOME MEN to be saved does not make Him "unjust"...
it makes Him Merciful.

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FreeGrace2 said:

You need to QUIT saying that Jesus says people are not able to repent/believe. Because Mark 4:11 doesn't say what you keep claiming.

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It says what it says:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

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FreeGrace2 said:

I don't believe YOUR presupposition. The Bible teaches that people REFUSE to believe.

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I have no presupposition:


Joh 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them,
and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they
shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


The men above were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
Those are the Words of Christ.... believe them or not,
it does not effect me.

It's always a choice.

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Not to these men.
They were NEVER MEANT to be saved:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

It's always a choice.

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Not to the unsaved "tares/goats" in the church who were
sown by Satan and destined to the same fire prepared for
Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]... "children of Satan"
were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

It's always a choice.

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Not for the MILLIONS of Gentiles living in the Old Testament
when God was only (with a few exceptions) saving Jews.
All those Gentiles were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

It's always a choice.

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Not for the "foolish virgins" of the Great Tribulation [Mat 25:1-13]
"Kingdom of Heaven"... they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil;
for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying,
Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went
to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in
with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But
he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein
the Son of man cometh.


The Bible is FULL of examples of men who were NEVER MEANT
to be saved... you just don't want to "see" them.



.

BNR32FAN said:

Yeah and who does He decide to have mercy on?

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The Bible tells us:

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

The red words are what the wicked should do.

The blue blue words are what God WILL DO if the wicked do what they should do.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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Peter kinda paraphrased what Isaiah said.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You need to QUIT saying that Jesus says people are not able to repent/believe. Because Mark 4:11 doesn't say what you keep claiming.

5thKingdom said:

It says what it says:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

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Yes, it does say what it says. And you keep misreading what it says.

There is NOTHING here about people "not able to repent". The red words show the RESULT IF IF IF they repent, which means to be converted.

Why would Jesus use these specific words IF IF IF these people are unable to repent? What would be the point?

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I don't believe YOUR presupposition. The Bible teaches that people REFUSE to believe.

5thKingdom said:

I have no presupposition:

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Of course you do.

Joh 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them,
and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they
shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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I have explained this verse. If you disagree, please point out exactly where I am wrong.

The men above were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

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Do you understand what an opinion is? This is an example.

Those are the Words of Christ.... believe them or not,
it does not effect me.

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I'll tell you what does affect you: your misreading/misunderstanding what Scripture says.

There are NO verses where Jesus said that there are people that were "never meant" to be saved".

But I will acknowledge that those who "have not believed" WILL BE condemned. So those who "have not believed" cannot be saved.

I have shown from Scripture that Christ died for everyone. So your presupposition that there are people who were "never meant" to be saved is ludicrous.

I said:
"It's always a choice."

Not to these men.
They were NEVER MEANT to be saved

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Another example of an opinion.

Not for the MILLIONS of Gentiles living in the Old Testament
when God was only (with a few exceptions) saving Jews.

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This is what the Bible said in the OT about Gentiles:

Acts 13:47 -
For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

Where did this verse come from? The OT, of course.

Isa 49:6 - he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

All those Gentiles were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

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Isaiah disagreed with you.

The Bible is FULL of examples of men who were NEVER MEANT
to be saved... you just don't want to "see" them.

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What I see in Scripture is the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that Jesus Christ died for everyone. This proves that no one was "never meant to be saved".

1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Clear as can be. For those who want to see the truth.

5thKingdom said:

Is there hope for those in Mark 4:11-12?
Is there hope for those in John 10:26?

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Does anyone reject the gospel then later in life turn to Christ? I sure did. I didn’t come to Christ until I was 38 years old despite having been to church, heard the gospel, and baptized when I was a child. So just because a person rejects the gospel at one point of their life doesn’t mean they won’t accept it later and become a child of God. And after coming to Christ did you all the sudden fully understand every one of Christ’s parables? I didn’t I had to study the scriptures a while before I could piece everything together. So just because someone doesn’t understand at one point doesn’t mean they never will.

5thKingdom said:

Not to the unsaved "tares/goats" in the church who were
sown by Satan and destined to the same fire prepared for
Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]... "children of Satan"
were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

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What reason did Jesus give for condemning the goats?

“"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41-46‬ ‭NASB‬‬

They didn’t have love for others. That’s why they were condemned. Not because they weren’t chosen by God.

5thKingdom said:

I have no presupposition:


Joh 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them,
and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they
shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


The men above were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
Those are the Words of Christ.... believe them or not,
it does not effect me.





Not to these men.
They were NEVER MEANT to be saved:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.





Not to the unsaved "tares/goats" in the church who were
sown by Satan and destined to the same fire prepared for
Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]... "children of Satan"
were NEVER MEANT to be saved.





Not for the MILLIONS of Gentiles living in the Old Testament
when God was only (with a few exceptions) saving Jews.
All those Gentiles were NEVER MEANT to be saved.





Not for the "foolish virgins" of the Great Tribulation [Mat 25:1-13]
"Kingdom of Heaven"... they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil;
for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying,
Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went
to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in
with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But
he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein
the Son of man cometh.


The Bible is FULL of examples of men who were NEVER MEANT
to be saved... you just don't want to "see" them.



.

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If God’s election is true then...


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?


5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?


8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?


9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?


10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?


11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?


13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?


14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?


“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

Colossians 1:21-23 NASB


15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?


“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬


16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.


“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”

‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬


This next verse speaks for itself.


“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

FreeGrace2 said:

The Bible tells us:
Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

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There is no debate all the elect START OFF as wicked.
And no debate they CHANGE when regenerated.
You offer no argument.


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

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BNR32FAN said:

If God’s election is true then...
1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.

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All regenerated believe.

2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?

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No... Adam is responsible for ALL MEN being born spiritually DEAD and destined to hell.
God is responsible for saving SOME of those men.

3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?

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God did not create men spiritually DEAD. Adam was created spiritually ALIVE.
You keep trying to blame God for Adam's sin. Why do you do that?

4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?

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Because the Gospel is a proclamation of the finished work of Christ and a command
to repent and believe. Men are still responsible to repent... even when unable.
The CREATOR gets to set the rules... not you.

5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?

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No, that is a misinterpretation of the passages
If God REALLY wanted everyone ever born to repent then God is a tremendous failure.
There is a CONTEXT you are missing.

6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?

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Before Christ came God was ONLY saving Jews
After Christ came God was saving Jew + Gentile
Jew + Gentile = the world


I notice you did not quote verses saying He came to save "His sheep"
Or that He would save "His people"... I wonder why you skip those verses?

7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?

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There is a difference between discipleship and salvation you are missing

8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?

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What chapter/verse says the Apostles could lose their salvation?

9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?

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You again mistake walking in the Spirit (and sanctification) with salvation
You do that a lot.

10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?

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I am not a Calvinist... you will have to ask someone else what Calvin taught.

11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?

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Again you conflate walking in the Spirit from living in the flesh.
I notice you AGAIN do not care about context

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?

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Read verses 17 and 18

13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?

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Because He will save HIS PEOPLE
And He will save HIS SHEEP

What makes you think the CONTEXT of all [men is an addition... but you already knew that]
means everyone ever born?

If Jesus said He would draw everyone ever born then he is a total FAILURE.
Of course the problem is not with Jesus... but with your assumption of the context

14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?

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Again you conflate sanctification and discipleship with salvation.
You do that a lot... is it on purpose?

15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?

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Again you blame God for Adam's sin... why do you do that?
God did not make Adam spiritually DEAD until AFTER he rebelled (as He promised He would)
Do you WANT God to be a LIAR?
BTW: The Bible is clear God takes no delight in the death of the wicked.

16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.

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Read Matthew 22:2-7 on the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
and verses 8-14 on the Christian Kingdom replacing them.


Also read Mat 21:43 where the "Kingdom of God" is TAKEN from the Jews
and GIVEN to the Christians


Jesus specifically NAMED the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
Jesus specifically NAMED the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13 in 8 verses]
Jesus specifically NAMED the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13]
Jesus specifically NAMED the Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 5 and 7 and 8 and 19 and more]


The ONLY "Kingdom of Heaven" Jesus did not specifically NAME is the
(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom containing all the saints from Adam to Noah


------------
Now remember... if you reject what Jesus specifically NAMED you are rejecting
the Words of Christ (not my words)
----------------

TWO things for you to learn:


(1) There were four (4) temporal "Kingdoms of Heaven" with saved and unsaved
before Jesus Returns to establish the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" (with only saved)


(2) At the END of the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"... when the "testimony" of the saints
is finished [Rev 11:7] when all the saints are saved/sealed [Rev 7:1-3] the Holy Spirit is
the "taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9] and Satan is "loosened" to RULE during the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [mat 25:1-13] which consists of the "ten virgins"
(last "wheat and tares") who follow the Antichrist (preaching his gospel) also called the
ten "horns/kings" who are the "saints" RULED by the "Little Horn" (Antichirist) in Dan 7:24-25
called (again) the ten "horns/kings" who "agree to give their KINGDOM to the Beast"
(that would be the Revelation Beast) [Rev 17:12-17]


Now.. the question to YOU is simple:
Why do you not already know all this?
All the Last Saints ("wise virgins") teach this...
as the Bible PROMISED they would in Dan 12:8-10
and Matthew 24:15 and 24:33

So... why is it "news" to you?


.

5thKingdom said:

But you know that is not true.
You already KNOW that Jesus PROMISED that some men
were NEVER MEANT to be believe or be saved:


Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Click to expand...

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

If we take your interpretation at face value, then everyone, besides the disciples, that heard the parable could never be saved. The context is not about a certain portion not being chosen to believe, but that those who have been stubborn and stiff necked about Jesus would not understand and turn to be saved.

Matthew's accounts gives a fuller picture from which to draw the meaning:

Matt 13:10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Notice that it is the hearers that have "become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ " It is not that God is unwilling to save them, but that those particular hearers have chosen to not listen and hear and be saved! They could be, but do not want to be.

Note also what Jesus also said to the disciples: 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Jesus says that even righteous people and prophets did not have the information the disciples had been given, and they are not reprobates! This isn't about A) God choosing only a select group and making salvation just for them and no one else, or B) that this is about salvation itself primarily, but that this information was, at that point, only for the disciples to know (which Judas Iscariot was included in this group).

BNR32FAN said:

If God’s election is true then...


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?


5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?


8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?


9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?


10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?


11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?


13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?


14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?


“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

Colossians 1:21-23 NASB


15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?


“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬


16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.


“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”

‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬


This next verse speaks for itself.


“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”

‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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Excellent questions!

Doug

TibiasDad said:

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

If we take your interpretation at face value, then everyone, besides the disciples, that heard the parable could never be saved. The context is not about a certain portion not being chosen to believe, but that those who have been stubborn and stiff necked about Jesus would not understand and turn to be saved.

Matthew's accounts gives a fuller picture from which to draw the meaning:

Matt 13:10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Notice that it is the hearers that have "become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ " It is not that God is unwilling to save them, but that those particular hearers have chosen to not listen and hear and be saved! They could be, but do not want to be.

Note also what Jesus also said to the disciples: 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Jesus says that even righteous people and prophets did not have the information the disciples had been given, and they are not reprobates! This isn't about A) God choosing only a select group and making salvation just for them and no one else, or B) that this is about salvation itself primarily, but that this information was, at that point, only for the disciples to know (which Judas Iscariot was included in this group).

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Doug... I could not agree with you more.
There are several places where Jesus told the disciples
that some people were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
I did not want to go into all the detail you did...
but you only confirm some were NEVER MEANT
to be "converted" or "forgiven". Thanks.
I am glad we got that settled.

Jim
.

TibiasDad said:

Excellent questions!
Doug

Click to expand...

I hope you enjoyed the excellent answers.

Jim

5thKingdom said:

And again we see men who were NEVER MEANT to believe
or be saved.


Joh 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

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John 10 is dealing specifically with the Pharisees who were not accepting the teachings of Jesus, as opposed to other Israelites who, when hearing Jesus's message, recognized him as the Messiah because they had already been faithful worshipers of God under the old covenant and so their hearts were soft and ready to believe. Jesus starts chapter 10 saying, "“Very truly I tell you Pharisees....", which makes the scope of his teaching exclusively aimed at this segment of hearers, not a general message for all.

The Pharisees to whom he refers have never been faithful worshipers of God, though they had been teaching the law, though there have been those, in contrast to these Jewish leaders, who have been faithful, both in the Jewish leadership and the Jewish population as a whole. Those who had been faithful prior to Jesus's advent and teaching were those who believed and were already considered "sheep", and followed his voice because they had already been following the voice of the father. The Pharisees had not been following the voice of the Father prior to Jesus, and thus were not recognized by God as being part of the sheep. There is no predetermined choice of believers and unbelievers. And there is no prohibition to these Pharisees to become believers, and thus sheep!

Nothing supports your assertions.

Doug

5thKingdom said:

Doug... I could not agree with you more.
There are several places where Jesus told the disciples
that some people were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
I did not want to go into all the detail you did...
but you only confirm some were NEVER MEANT
to be "converted" or "forgiven". Thanks.
I am glad we got that settled.

Jim
.

Click to expand...

I am not sure how you get this from what I said, because Matthew's account of the same event contradicts the assertions you made regarding Mark's truncated rendition of the event.

Doug

5thKingdom said:

No... Adam is responsible for ALL MEN being born spiritually DEAD and destined to hell.
God is responsible for saving SOME of those men

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But God predetermined Adam's fall...Adam could do nothing other than what he did. God is the one who decides what the necessary and inevitable outcome will be.

Doug