The more I try to understand Christianity the more confused I get

CaspianSails

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Jesus did not descend into hell, he rested. This part was later added to the Creed and not part of the original. Jesus never went to Hell. I am sorry, where do people come up with this stuff.

Christ upon His death entered the place of the dead. That is translated hell. It is not the place of torment but is a translation of the word hades. Many do not understand the meaning of the word as Christ did not descend to a place of torment. It is the same as what He called Abraham's bosom or paradise. I suppose on this point we will disagree.
 
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fhansen

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Speculation. Seriously?
Yes, seriously. This makes me think you really haven’t studied the matter well but bought into some conveniently canned garbage posing as history to serve the interests of a few instead. Constantine had become borderline Christian and participated in the Edict of Milan which legalized not only Christianity, ending the severe persecution of Christians at that time, but other cults and religions as well, allowing people to pursue the religion of their choice. This allowed Christianity to grow and flourish but may’ve been a dubious blessing since politics and religion make strange bedfellows and ultimately, many years or centuries down the road, many clerics became spoiled and comfortable and abusive of their positions and power. The Church became too powerful herself in temporal affairs but also filled a vacuum left with the fall of the Roman Empire by providing a stabilizing influence in society and between various local powers that be. But that’s another story and people always find room to sin; even those with true fervent faith fail at times and the true treasure of the Church in any case are the teachings, the truth which she received and that God has managed to safeguard regardless of human weaknesses and limitations. And regardless of how the church “looks”, whether during her ragtag persecuted years or the monolith she is today, she remains the ark, the vessel, that contains that message.

So, for example, Constantine favored Christianity and wanting peace in the Roman Empire he helped convene the Council of Nicaea which sat to address the matter of Arianism mainly, a belief that had stirred up widespread controversy and unrest within the Christian world, with 250-300 bishops from the various scattered churches attending. Constantine was close to an Arian bishop and supported that position. But the bishops nonetheless voted against Arianism and created the doctrine of the Trinity as well as the Nicene Creed. The same Church at council some 50 years later assembled the canon of Scripture and about 150 years after that, at the 2nd Council of Orange developed probably the best and clearest understanding of grace and its role and necessity that Christianity has known, appreciated by any believer who understands the controversy that led up to it and the need for the matter to be clarified and ruled on, for all our ultimate benefit. Just to name a few. The Church, internally, remains the same at its core from beginning to end, guided by God despite human warts. Speculation and ideals aside, we need the physical, identifiable Church to carry and protect the “deposit of faith” as it’s sometimes called, down through time. Otherwise Christianity would most likely not even exist today, and none of us would be speculating about how things “should be”.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Christ upon His death entered the place of the dead. That is translated hell. It is not the place of torment but is a translation of the word hades. Many do not understand the meaning of the word as Christ did not descend to a place of torment. It is the same as what He called Abraham's bosom or paradise. I suppose on this point we will disagree.

The better translation would be Jesus rested, died.

Hell is for the wicked and lawlessness (not obeying God's law) that was/is not Jesus. Hell is not going to happen until after the Second Coming for the wicked.

The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9).

So it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire” (Matthew 13:40–42).

“The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28, 29).

“The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).
 
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ISteveB

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I have been trying so desperately to grow my faith and relationship with God and I’m now more confused then ever. To clarify I am not doubting God existence but I’m just doubting my understanding of God. I used to be so sure about what I believed but now when I’m trying to learn more, I’m not anymore. I also don’t understand why Christianity is so confused about so many things and why we have so many denominations. We all read the same bible but somehow come to drastically different conclusions. Why does the bible seem so contradictory sometimes? I used not to think so but it wasn’t until I debated a Jehovah Witness, who used the scriptures to support his statements that Jesus was created and obviously as someone that believes the trinity I don’t believe that but it’s hard to convince someone else when Jesus is so often in the scriptures referred as the only begotten son. Then I use John 1:1 to show him that the Word was God and Jesus is the word. However then he says that he does believe Jesus is a God but not the almighty God. I say that there is only one God and that God is jealous if we worship other gods. However then he shows me a scriptures that say God even calls us gods ( Psalms 82:6 & John 10:34). I didn’t know of this scripture so how can I refute something that is clearly biblical. I understand that some people will say some of these scriptures are not literal and are figuratively but how can you distinguish what is literal and what is figuratively. It’s things like these that confused my faith the most. I will blame in on my lack of understanding or wisdom but it’s just so hard to understand sometimes.

It took me a very long time to understand what following Jesus was about.
According to Isaiah 40, God is incomprehensible.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar, and is trying to sell you something.

He can however be known. Jeremiah 24:7, John 3:16-17, and John 17:3.

I've learned over the past 43 years that prayer and reading, meditation on the bible, Psalms 1, Jeremiah 17:5-10, Isaiah 26:3-4, Philippians 4:6-9, are an absolute necessity for us to follow Jesus.

2 Peter 1:2-13 gives us some pretty basic, but important thinks to focus on learning to do.
2 Peter 1:2-4 describes what God has given us, and how to live.
2 Peter 1:5-7 tells us what we should give ourselves over to, in totality.
2 Peter 1:8 says that if we focus on them, we cannot fail.
Vs 9 describes the problem of forgetting what God did for us.
Vss 10-11 re-emphasizes the importance of vss 5-7, stating that by doing these, we will experience great success in our relationship with God and Jesus.
Vss 12-13 emphasizes the importance of regularly being reminded, recognizing how easy forgetfulness is.

In my studies in physics, my professor regularly stated to us.... when you forget, or get lost, get overwhelmed by the magnitude of everything around you, go back to first principles!
Everything we learn is built upon first principles.

So.... I want to encourage you to do this.

Seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and everything you need will be given to you. Matthew 6:33.

Focus on learning Jesus. Ask God to teach you Jesus.
 
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timothyu

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Seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and everything you need will be given to you. Matthew 6:33.
Exactly. Learn the counter-culture of the Kingdom as compared to man's ways and chose a side that focuses on others rather than on self.
 
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CanoeSister

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However then he says that he does believe Jesus is a God but not the almighty God. I say that there is only one God and that God is jealous if we worship other gods.

However then he shows me a scriptures that say God even calls us gods ( Psalms 82:6 & John 10:34). I didn’t know of this scripture so how can I refute something that is clearly biblical.

Going back to the original topic for a moment, I do not recommend debating with Jehovah's Witnesses unless you know the whole Bible - because they twist scripture like Satan when he tempted Christ in the wilderness. It is hard to go against the twisting of Scripture unless you really, really know your stuff.

Now with the topic of "god," we actually have to talk about Greek and Hebrew for a moment. In Hebrew, the word for "gods" is elohim (true plural), and the word for God (true singular) is El, and the word for the Trinity God (singular plural) is Elohim when it is used with singular verbs and singular pronouns.

I know, it's confusing, but since they brought it up - the "gods," the elohim, that Psalms speaks of, we better dive in.

What is a "god," an el? It means either:

- An object of worship. ("You shall have no other elohim. You shall not bow down to them nor worship them")
- A being with Power

The root word really means powerful one or powerful ones. So, when our God teaches: "You are elohim," it is in that sense that we have power.

Us pet owners, we have power over the life and death of our animals. We feed them. We set limits for them. To them, we are this huge powerful being.

Similarly, the judges of Israel were in a position of power over other people, and thus they also were elohim in the sense of Powerful Ones.

By taking this teaching out of context and twisting it to mean something else, the Jehovah's Witnesses try to discredit the teaching that Jesus is God. However there are hundreds of verses that contradict them. I have studied with Jehovah's Witnesses before, and have experience witnessing to them. If you want, I could share some of the many passages which clearly teach that Jesus, whose name means "YHWH-our-Salvation" in Hebrew, is the same Almighty God.

When I approach them, though, I notice that they are used to arguing about Jesus, but have very very little defense against the Biblical doctrine that the Holy Spirit is also God, and is a Spirit Person rather than an inanimate force. You can prove this with verses showing the Holy Spirit using His MIND, His WILL, and His EMOTIONS.
 
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SK_Brace

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Going back to the original topic for a moment, I do not recommend debating with Jehovah's Witnesses unless you know the whole Bible - because they twist scripture like Satan when he tempted Christ in the wilderness. It is hard to go against the twisting of Scripture unless you really, really know your stuff.

Now with the topic of "god," we actually have to talk about Greek and Hebrew for a moment. In Hebrew, the word for "gods" is elohim (true plural), and the word for God (true singular) is El, and the word for the Trinity God (singular plural) is Elohim when it is used with singular verbs and singular pronouns.

I know, it's confusing, but since they brought it up - the "gods," the elohim, that Psalms speaks of, we better dive in.

What is a "god," an el? It means either:

- An object of worship. ("You shall have no other elohim. You shall not bow down to them nor worship them")
- A being with Power

The root word really means powerful one or powerful ones. So, when our God teaches: "You are elohim," it is in that sense that we have power.

Us pet owners, we have power over the life and death of our animals. We feed them. We set limits for them. To them, we are this huge powerful being.

Similarly, the judges of Israel were in a position of power over other people, and thus they also were elohim in the sense of Powerful Ones.

By taking this teaching out of context and twisting it to mean something else, the Jehovah's Witnesses try to discredit the teaching that Jesus is God. However there are hundreds of verses that contradict them. I have studied with Jehovah's Witnesses before, and have experience witnessing to them. If you want, I could share some of the many passages which clearly teach that Jesus, whose name means "YHWH-our-Salvation" in Hebrew, is the same Almighty God.

When I approach them, though, I notice that they are used to arguing about Jesus, but have very very little defense against the Biblical doctrine that the Holy Spirit is also God, and is a Spirit Person rather than an inanimate force. You can prove this with verses showing the Holy Spirit using His MIND, His WILL, and His EMOTIONS.


Thank you! I did not know about the difference of el and elohim, that has helped me understand it better. Btw it would help a lot if you would share your experience with taking to Jehovah Witnesses. The JW in my original question is a friend of mine and I do care for him but he always has the need to debate me even when I do not feel like it. The good thing that has come out of it, is that it has allowed me to study my bible even more and understand it better. He is so set that what I believe the "Trinity" is pagan teaching and not biblical. So I showed him that the reason I believed in the trinity is from the bible itself and showed him the verse John 1:1. He said that the word used to describe "The Word was God" Theos in greek is not the same as for when the "The Word was with God" Theon in greek. He says Theos just means "a god". I think you hit the naill when you say that JW are good at twisting verses. They accuse other Christians of believing in non biblical pagan teachings however they don't even believe in Jesus resurrection because they don't believe he rose up from the death with his body. Also he has yet to show me were in the bible it's alluded to that Jesus is Micheal the Archangel. Also another thing that I find annoying is that he always says He has "The Truth" which is pretty condescending. And I agree he always has to debate Jesus and rarely brings up the holy spirit which is also so strange to me.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I have been trying so desperately to grow my faith and relationship with God and I’m now more confused then ever. To clarify I am not doubting God existence but I’m just doubting my understanding of God. I used to be so sure about what I believed but now when I’m trying to learn more, I’m not anymore. I also don’t understand why Christianity is so confused about so many things and why we have so many denominations. We all read the same bible but somehow come to drastically different conclusions. Why does the bible seem so contradictory sometimes? I used not to think so but it wasn’t until I debated a Jehovah Witness, who used the scriptures to support his statements that Jesus was created and obviously as someone that believes the trinity I don’t believe that but it’s hard to convince someone else when Jesus is so often in the scriptures referred as the only begotten son. Then I use John 1:1 to show him that the Word was God and Jesus is the word. However then he says that he does believe Jesus is a God but not the almighty God. I say that there is only one God and that God is jealous if we worship other gods. However then he shows me a scriptures that say God even calls us gods ( Psalms 82:6 & John 10:34). I didn’t know of this scripture so how can I refute something that is clearly biblical. I understand that some people will say some of these scriptures are not literal and are figuratively but how can you distinguish what is literal and what is figuratively. It’s things like these that confused my faith the most. I will blame in on my lack of understanding or wisdom but it’s just so hard to understand sometimes.

Sadly, this is because of human pride. It isn't just Christianity that no two members of the same religion will completely agree. There are different sects of Judaism, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduism ...etc. The list just goes on and on.

When it comes to Christianity though, the reason why Christians are so separate is because some denominations refuse to strictly go by scripture (Catholics, Orthodox) and want human tradition to be added in. While the other (Protestants) go strictly by the scripture and refuse to add in human tradition (Otherwise known as Sola Scriptura)

And the ones that do (Protestants that hold to Sola Scriptura) are mostly all hypocrites and do not believe in the actual sola because while they they refuse to acknowledge and live by EVERY VERSE of scripture. For example, an Arminan will took at look at John 3:16, and will completely ignore verses like John 6:44,65 which clearly teach that not all men are drawn to God. Because Jesus says that those who are drawn are raised on the last day. Last I checked, not every person in the world was raised on the last day and there are in fact, two separate judgements. Or a Lutheran would argue that salvation can be lost and are stuck on Hebrews 6:4-8 yet, there are MULTIPLE verses in the Bible that they ignore that say that salvation CANNOT be lost including the very author of Hebrews himself that apparently teaches that salvation can be lost.

The importance to Christianity in general is to 1. Hold to Sola Scriptura and the 5 Solas and 2. If you hold to Sola Scriptura don't be a hypocrite, and take the Bible in as a WHOLE. Don't just nilly willy pick the verses that you like and ignore the other parts of scripture because they make you uncomfortable or because they don't make sense. That is what Theologians and other Christians are for. Scripture was written by God, there isn't a single flaw or blemish in scripture. If people tell you so, it's a lie straight from the devil. ALL scripture has a meaning and a purpose and ALL scripture can be interpreted you just have to erase human pride.

But, it's no different in Judaism as well. Did you know that the entire Chapter of Isaiah 53 is completely forbidden to be read in Jewish synagogues because it converts way too many Jews to Christianity? And no wonder so, because Isaiah described Jesus Christ as the Messiah to the tee in that Chapter. It could not possibly be any other person in history. Again, human pride and not accepting scripture as a whole. Just picking the verses you like and ignoring the rest of scripture.
 
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CanoeSister

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Thank you! I did not know about the difference of el and elohim, that has helped me understand it better. Btw it would help a lot if you would share your experience with taking to Jehovah Witnesses.

Alright, yes, let me tell you more about my experience.

So, ever since I have been born again, God has given me a heart for the lost, and so I always am excited when I have a chance to witness to people.

I studied Jehovah’s Witness doctrine, before I had a chance to speak to any Witnesses, and then when they came to my door I was more than happy! They started the conversation by asking what I do to please Jehovah, and I am always passionate about God and gave them a long list of many things I do out of love for Him (“Do everything as unto the Lord”). They were surprised by my passion toward God, and when they asked about a weekly Bible study I said yes!

So, they came back the next week to begin.

My first approach was to shower them with the LOVE of God. I gave them smiles and hugs! And I had freshly baked muffins for them. They turned them down (they were health-conscious elderly ladies), but every time they came I made sure to offer them something healthy and delicious to eat or drink. I absolutely believe that living out the love of Christ is vital – for the Gospel has a shocking message:

- Their own religion teaches them to “be good, to be accepted” by God, but we give them the opposite news – they are not good enough (no one is) to earn eternal life, but God knows all their flaws and LOVES them enough even to die for them, to provide salvation and eternal life!

This is a shocking concept to those who have been treated their whole life like their level of Goodness determines how loved they are. For example: If an adult child of a J.W. rejects the faith and lives in sin, the family will cut off all contact and “disfellowship” them forever, until they go back to Behaving the Right Way.

Okay, but as soon as the first Bible Study began, we ran into a difficulty immediately: They did not want to simply study the BIBLE. Like, I said, “Let’s read through First John” or “What about Romans? Ephesians? Where do you guys want to start?”

And they said, “Oh, no no. We go through these Booklets.” And they pulled out these booklets written by the Governing Body of the J.W. Organization. And I said: “Oh, but those are written by man. We would be studying man’s doctrine rather than just the Word of God.”

One of the two of the ladies kept arguing and arguing, saying “But it gives Bible references, it all found in the Word of God,” and I would say, “That’s what we are here to discuss, yes, but you have to at least notice that it’s in their words. Even if the doctrines are Biblical, it’s not just quoting the Bible but putting ideas into their own words – thus, it’s the word of man.” And the other lady, Ruby, she agreed with this position – that it was Biblical doctrine, but in the Words of Man. The first lady, Phyllis, she kept insisting that this wasn’t the words of man but was literally a Bible Study.

We came to a compromise: We would spend half the time in the booklet, and half the time reading the Scripture itself by itself.

However, by the next week, Phyllis backed out of the compromise and said that she ONLY was willing to study the booklet with me. I agreed to it because it was better than nothing. You see, the Watchtower organization does a great job sealing off their members from all outside contact. Most Witnesses have never heard the Gospel explained to them, because they are not involved in secular activities (their schedule is kept chalk full of what the Organization demands of them) and are not generally allowed to have non-J.W. friends. They are not allowed to research the organization online, and are not permitted to read “Apostate literature.” So if you ever hand them a Gospel tract or book, they are not permitted to read it and cannot hear the Gospel that way. The brief contact they have with Christians during their evangelistic efforts is the One chink in the armor, the one way that outside information can come in. So I really valued every moment I had with them, and did my best to keep them coming back rather than getting frustrated and giving up and not coming back.

Here is something important:
They hate to hear statements they disagree with. They are more open to questions.

So with all my disagreements, I made great efforts to phrase it **as a question.** If I wanted to prove to them that the Holy Spirit is a spirit person (not just a force), then I wouldn’t SAY: “The Holy Spirit is a person,” but rather would ask: “What is a spirit person?” and “How would we know if the Holy Spirit is one?” and “So if the Holy Spirit had a mind, will, and emotions, would you then agree that the Holy Spirit is a Spirit person?”

Or instead of reading to them a verse and saying: “Therefore, as you can clearly see, Jesus has existed forever.” I would say: “In this verse that speaks about Jesus, why do you think the Scripture uses the word OLAM to tell us how long He has existed?” [Ruby actually ended up acknowledging, the next week, that sure enough the Hebrew word OLAM does mean from eternity. It is applied to Jesus in Micah 5:2:


“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting [OLAM].”

They do love to do Greek and Hebrew word studies, because otherwise the differences between their Bible and our Bible are too great to come to any agreement about. They think our Bible is corrupt, and we think their Bible is corrupt, but looking at the original language helps.

In the end, they studied with me for over a year, but, eventually stopped because the organization encouraged them to stop “wasting time” with me.

It was not surprising. The Organization does try to keep their members safe from outside perspectives. I knew it was only a matter of time until they would be disallowed from seeing me. But you have a special situation, because this Witness you know is your friend already!!

They do like it when we use the name of God. Jehovah is kindof like His name, but, Hebrew does not have a J. So, it’s a Germanic pronunciation. I use the original pronunciation: Yahuwah
They did like the fact that I use a name for God, rather than just calling Him by His title (God). And because I know the name of God, I was also able to try to show them that Jesus’ name proclaims Him as God, for His name in Hebrew is Yahushua - meaning: Yahuwah-Our-Salvation
 
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SK_Brace

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Sadly, this is because of human pride. It isn't just Christianity that no two members of the same religion will completely agree. There are different sects of Judaism, Muslims, Buddhists, Hinduism ...etc. The list just goes on and on.

When it comes to Christianity though, the reason why Christians are so separate is because some denominations refuse to strictly go by scripture (Catholics, Orthodox) and want human tradition to be added in. While the other (Protestants) go strictly by the scripture and refuse to add in human tradition (Otherwise known as Sola Scriptura)

And the ones that do (Protestants that hold to Sola Scriptura) are mostly all hypocrites and do not believe in the actual sola because while they they refuse to acknowledge and live by EVERY VERSE of scripture. For example, an Arminan will took at look at John 3:16, and will completely ignore verses like John 6:44,65 which clearly teach that not all men are drawn to God. Because Jesus says that those who are drawn are raised on the last day. Last I checked, not every person in the world was raised on the last day and there are in fact, two separate judgements. Or a Lutheran would argue that salvation can be lost and are stuck on Hebrews 6:4-8 yet, there are MULTIPLE verses in the Bible that they ignore that say that salvation CANNOT be lost including the very author of Hebrews himself that apparently teaches that salvation can be lost.

The importance to Christianity in general is to 1. Hold to Sola Scriptura and the 5 Solas and 2. If you hold to Sola Scriptura don't be a hypocrite, and take the Bible in as a WHOLE. Don't just nilly willy pick the verses that you like and ignore the other parts of scripture because they make you uncomfortable or because they don't make sense. That is what Theologians and other Christians are for. Scripture was written by God, there isn't a single flaw or blemish in scripture. If people tell you so, it's a lie straight from the devil. ALL scripture has a meaning and a purpose and ALL scripture can be interpreted you just have to erase human pride.

But, it's no different in Judaism as well. Did you know that the entire Chapter of Isaiah 53 is completely forbidden to be read in Jewish synagogues because it converts way too many Jews to Christianity? And no wonder so, because Isaiah described Jesus Christ as the Messiah to the tee in that Chapter. It could not possibly be any other person in history. Again, human pride and not accepting scripture as a whole. Just picking the verses you like and ignoring the rest of scripture.


I do agree that many denominations refuse to look at the whole bible and cherry pick.

But I have to disagree with your implication that salvation cannot be lost maybe you are not alluding that but that is just how it came across. I could be wrong and if I am, in all means I would love you to tell me how because I very openminded, and have been wrong before.

But if salvation cannot be lost than why is it that Jesus will reject people who performed miracles in his name. As I see it in the bible you had to have faith to perform miracles and it would only make sense that these lukewarm Christians that Jesus spits out were once faithful and then got swept away or had one foot into the world.

Take the parable of the seeds for example, this explains how some people would receive the gospel but the enemy snatches it away from them, or they get excited about the gospel but then tribulation comes and they wither away etc. I believe salvation is what really saves us but without being obedient to God we can lose our faith and not believe in Jesus and his salvation anymore and I think it's dangerous to stay that these people are still saved. Why then is the story of the prodigal son so important anyways, why did he have to come back? The bible makes it very clear that we will know a true believer by his fruits, we are supposed to produce fruits the quantity is not important however if we produce none than are we really a Christian even if we claim to be. I do believe that as long as we have faith in Jesus and not give up on him, then yes of course no one will be able to snatch us from him. However I also do think that we can walk away and choice our own way.
 
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