SOCIALISM FOR-BIDEN

Monksailor · Sep 30, 2020

Fantine said:
What about Jimmy Carter? Not wealthy but certainly gave and continues giving to the world. My hero.

The founder of Home Depot is giving 95% of his fortune to charity. He is also a Trump supporter.

So my dilemma. To shop at Home Depot or Lowe's? Leaning towards Lowe's.

Well, he is up there with Bill Gates. Good for him. Yes, you gotta love Jimmy Carter.

dzheremi · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
NONE of them are on the list of Socialist states in the world now or before. pasted from: List of socialist states - Wikipedia

"According to Merriam-Webster, socialism is “any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.”

Yet the adherents of “socialism” typically claim to want something different, specifically a large, cradle-to-grave welfare state. Often forgotten or ignored is that such a welfare state must be financed, and that resources only will be available if the economic system is functioning efficiently and with a high degree of productivity. Government control is typically the enemy of both." and "Socialism is a failed economic and social arrangement. In many cases, socialists have ended up being forced to adopt capitalist measures for their survival." See: Young Americans’ Ignorance of Socialism Threatens Our Freedom and Vitality

Regarding your last paragraph, Germany and Ireland (and also Norway, which I suppose could function as a substitute for Sweden if the wider point is, as it usually is when the Scandinavian countries are invoked concerning the topic, that having a large welfare state has not brought these countries to economic ruin) are more economically productive than the United States (all while working fewer hours), according to data presented by Forbes in 2019 (though the data itself seems to be from 2017; I don't know where to find more current data, but it's not too long ago, so I would be surprised if the top 5 countries have moved much since).

Speedwell · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
Biden is the parties' puppet. He said so last night. We will see where the party leads him if he is elected but it is pretty clear that socialistic medicine is on the agenda just to start with.

Just like those countries which you told us are not socialist.

Monksailor · Sep 30, 2020

dzheremi said:
Better than fascism for Trump.

REALLY!??? You are going to cite the Washington Post regarding President Trump?

Monksailor · Sep 30, 2020

dzheremi said:
Regarding your last paragraph, Germany and Ireland (and also Norway, which I suppose could function as a substitute for Sweden if the wider point is, as it usually is when the Scandinavian countries are invoked concerning the topic, that having a large welfare state has not brought these countries to economic ruin) are more economically productive than the United States (all while working fewer hours), according to data presented by Forbes in 2019 (though the data itself seems to be from 2017; I don't know where to find more current data, but it's not too long ago, so I would be surprised if the top 5 countries have moved much since).

They are not classifies as Socialist States so your point is moot. I think that you may be confusing socialism with something else. I think that you are thinking about Democratic Socialism or a Social Democracy. Here is a quote from another article I just came across,
"Democratic socialists love to cite living breathing examples of socialist paradises in Europe, particularly in the Nordic countries. It is true that Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark all boast high rates of economic freedom, universal health care, exceptionally high wealth per capita, low-income inequality, impressive free-public education, and a high rate of social mobility.

But none of these countries are socialist.

The truth is that all of these countries, along with every other country in Europe, firmly subscribe to a free-market economic model and are capitalist societies. What the Nordic countries do have is a social democracy coupled with a strong social welfare component to their governments, but social democracy is not the same as democratic socialism." pasted from: Europe Is Not Socialist And Neither Are You (This is a very well written, authoritative, and informative 5 min read article.)

Tanj · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
the Demo party

Well, at least that's new. Against forum rules, but new.

wing2000 · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
Biden is the parties' puppet. He said so last night

No. He did not.

dzheremi · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
REALLY!??? You are going to cite the Washington Post regarding President Trump?

REALLY? You are going to cite the Heritage Foundation regarding literally anything?

dzheremi · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
They are not classifies as Socialist States so your point is moot.

No, I don't think it is. I'm not playing your little name game; I'm responding to the part of your last paragraph where you wrote this:

"Often forgotten or ignored is that such a welfare state must be financed, and that resources only will be available if the economic system is functioning efficiently and with a high degree of productivity."

It is entirely valid in this context to point out that two out of three countries specifically mentioned in the post you were replying to have a higher degree of economic productivity than the United States, because inherent in trying to scare everyone with the specter of socialism is the idea that a country cannot adopt a wider safety net than the United States currently has without damaging its own economic productivity (hence the constant cry of "where do you expect all the money to pay for it to come from?"). Germany, Ireland, and Norway would all be fine evidence that this is not the case.

Monksailor · Sep 30, 2020

Tanj said:
Well, at least that's new. Against forum rules, but new.

I was just abrev the word. I knew you would know who I was talking about. I did not mean any harm. Will check and change if so. If that assaulted you, I apologize. It seems that the sensitivities these days keep getting more and more sensitive. :swoon:

Gene2memE · Sep 30, 2020

Letssee....

Guilt by association
No true Scotsman
False dichotomy
Black-or-white fallacy

And that's just in the first two paragraphs.

I wonder if the OP can look at the Democrat Party Platform, or any of Joe Biden's statements, and find a single policy item that is not found in Western social democracies/welfare states but is found in authoritarian socialist states?

Tanj · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
I was just abrev the word.

In an against-the-forum-rules kind of way.

I knew you would know who I was talking about.

Well obviously, you could have used any kind of common profanity or vulgarity and in the context "I would have known what you were talking about".

The fact I understand you doesn't make what you did OK.

I did not mean any harm. Will check and change if so. If that assaulted you, I apologize. It seems that the sensitivities these days keep getting more and more sensitive.

I'm an Australian and a member of precisely none of the US political parties. There are some things which irk me, such as your apparent belief that a like of civility and decency corresponds to being "sensitive".

cow451 · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
Yet the adherents of “socialism” typically claim to want something different, specifically a large, cradle-to-grave welfare state. Often forgotten or ignored is that such a welfare state must be financed, and that resources only will be available if the economic system is functioning efficiently and with a high degree of productivity. Government control is typically the enemy of both." and "Socialism is a failed economic and social arrangement. In many cases, socialists have ended up being forced to adopt capitalist measures for their survival." See: Young Americans’ Ignorance of Socialism Threatens Our Freedom and Vitality

Does that mean we should privatize the Armed Forces?

cow451 · Sep 30, 2020

Tanj said:
Well, at least that's new. Against forum rules, but new.

Well the Repo Party will kick their butts in the election.

MIDutch · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
NONE of them are on the list of Socialist states in the world now or before. pasted from: List of socialist states - Wikipedia

"According to Merriam-Webster, socialism is “any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.”

Yet the adherents of “socialism” typically claim to want something different, specifically a large, cradle-to-grave welfare state.

Can you provide citations for this assertion?

Or is it just more of the normal conservative fear mongering -

Hank77 · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
I was just abrev the word. I knew you would know who I was talking about. I did not mean any harm. Will check and change if so. If that assaulted you, I apologize. It seems that the sensitivities these days keep getting more and more sensitive.

I use Dem or Rep all the time and no one complains. Demo, just sounds a little like it might be calling names but don't worry about it.

cow451 · Sep 30, 2020

Hank77 said:
I use Dem or Rep all the time and no one complains. Demo, just sounds a little like it might be calling names but don't worry about it.

I like Repo. That makes the President a Repo man.

RocksInMyHead · Sep 30, 2020

Monksailor said:
They are not classifies as Socialist States so your point is moot. I think that you may be confusing socialism with something else. I think that you are thinking about Democratic Socialism or a Social Democracy.

I believe the point is that YOU are confusing Democratic Socialism or Social Democracy with Socialism. There is no proposal that I'm aware of by any mainstream politician in the Democratic party that does anything that hasn't been done in some form by one of those countries that you say is definitely not socialist. If they can enact those policies and not be socialists, then so can we.

Monksailor · Sep 30, 2020

dzheremi said:
No, I don't think it is. I'm not playing your little name game; I'm responding to the part of your last paragraph where you wrote this:

"Often forgotten or ignored is that such a welfare state must be financed, and that resources only will be available if the economic system is functioning efficiently and with a high degree of productivity."

It is entirely valid in this context to point out that two out of three countries specifically mentioned in the post you were replying to have a higher degree of economic productivity than the United States, because inherent in trying to scare everyone with the specter of socialism is the idea that a country cannot adopt a wider safety net than the United States currently has without damaging its own economic productivity (hence the constant cry of "where do you expect all the money to pay for it to come from?"). Germany, Ireland, and Norway would all be fine evidence that this is not the case.

First of all, I did not write that. I wish I had as it is written by a very well studied and informed and highly educated person probably of the political science or economics realm.

Secondly, you totally took what he said OUT of CONTEXT and have tried to make it say something else. He was talking about those who adhere to a wrong interpretation of what socialism is (ie; "a large, cradle-to-grave welfare state"), hence his putting the word in quotes in the immediately previous sentence and thusly indicating a contrast with the definition of REAL Socialism just given. He explained in the immediately following sentence after the one which you surgically removed that what you quoted would not be typically possible with government ownership and control as cited in the definition given of socialism (as history has shown over and over.) Such "collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods" does not exist in the countries you have cited, hence whatever you claim about them as a socialist country is moot as they are NOT socialist country. I am not saying that they are "bad" counties. They are out of purvey for this thread as they are NOT socialist countries.

NONE of them are on the list of Socialist states in the world now or before. pasted from: List of socialist states - Wikipedia

Monksailor · Sep 30, 2020

RocksInMyHead said:
I believe the point is that YOU are confusing Democratic Socialism or Social Democracy with Socialism. There is no proposal that I'm aware of by any mainstream politician in the Democratic party that does anything that hasn't been done in some form by one of those countries that you say is definitely not socialist. If they can enact those policies and not be socialists, then so can we.

That sounds good but those countries are the size of or smaller than just one of our states. The diversity of our socioeconomic, sociopolitical, cultural, resources, world trade and foreign relations and more and the population difference is exponential. The only viable comparison one could make is of a socialist country the size of Russia which is/was not a Social Democracy like those European countries nor a Socialist Democracy. Think about it. There is no way a socialist democracy can survive. If the govt does not seize ownership and control of the country's resources and means of production it cannot force the wealthy to give up what a socialist mind-frame would demand. If it tries w/democratic legislation, ultimately, as said before, they will leave and take all of their wealth to another country more favorable to them, leaving the country they left poorer.
Our world wide technology has created a different international environment in which the wealthy can be much more adaptable and nomadic and it was not like such when these European countries forged their Neo-socialistic existence.

SOCIALISM FOR-BIDEN

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