WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SUNDAY

LoveGodsWord said:

The Sabbath commandment is about resting from our work as God rested from his work of creation. We rest in God's presence. We should worship God everyday but especially on the day that God calls his people into His presence on the day He blessed and set apart as a Holy day. The Sabbath is also a celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth where Gods people worship the God of creation who is the maker of all things. We worship God by believing his Word and doing what he asks us to do because we love him - JOHN 14:15

EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

PSALMS 95:1-11 [1], O COME, LET US SING TO THE LORD: LET US MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE TO THE ROCK OF OUR SALVATION. [2], LET US COME BEFORE HIS PRESENCE WITH THANKSGIVING, AND MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE TO HIM WITH PSALMS. [3], For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods. [4], In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also. [5], THE SEA IS HIS, AND HE MADE IT: AND HIS HANDS FORMED THE DRY LAND. [6], O COME, LET US WORSHIP AND BOW DOWN: LET US KNEEL BEFORE THE LORD OUR MAKER. [7], For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: [9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. [10], Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: [11], To whom I swore in my wrath that they should not ENTER INTO MY REST.

HEBREWS 4:1-5 [1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it. [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [3], FOR WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. [4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

EZEKIEL 46:1-3 [1], Thus said the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looks toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but ON THE SABBATH IT SHALL BE OPENED, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. [2], And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, AND HE SHALL WORSHIP AT THE THRESHOLD OF THE GATE: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.[3], LIKEWISE THE PEOPLE OF THE LAND SHALL WORSHIP AT THE DOOR OF THIS GATE BEFORE THE LORD IN THE SABBATHS and in the new moons.

REVELATION 14:6-7 [6], And I saw another angel fly in the middle of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [7], Saying with a loud voice, FEAR GOD, AND GIVE GLORY TO HIM; FOR THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME: AND WORSHIP HIM THAT MADE HEAVEN, AND EARTH, AND THE SEA, AND THE FOUNTAINS OF WATERS.

ISAIAH 66:23 And IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT FROM ONE NEW MOON TO ANOTHER, AND FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME, SAID THE LORD.

God bless

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In addition to your points I'd point out that the Sabbath is the sign that we acknowledge that it is God who sanctifies us. Our sanctification is God's work, not ours, as Exodus 31:13 and Ezekiel 20:12 express very plainly.

Ezekiel 20:13-24 tell us of the consequences of polluting the Sabbath. And Hebrews makes plain what prompted that behavior.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

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So what is it that the disobedient Israelites demonstrated by not keeping God's law? Unbelief. In other words the lack of faith and trust in God. And what did those that did keep the Sabbath demonstrate? Their faith and trust in God.

As the 4th commandment says days 1 through 6 are specifically set aside for work and pleasure and the 7th set aside to be spent with God, for the only way to keep it holy is to spend it in communion with God, Sunday is explicitly given as a day for work and our own pleasure both of which detract from focusing our time in communion with God Sunday cannot be the Sabbath. Sunday is a man made tradition, not a scriptural injunction from God, and Paul tells us to be very careful about being spoiled by vain deceit and philosophy, the traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

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What can the claim that man has the authority to change God's law be seen as other than as vain deceit and a tradition of man?

clefty said:

He only has one calendar and the first day of Passover is when the Lambs were killed...when He was...

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But the Jews had both a solar calendar and a lunar calendar.

Now which year was He killed?

Thanks for LINK hope to find time...

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LoveGodsWord said:

This next post will look at showing why I believe the LORD'S DAY is in reference to the SABBATH DAY and not Sunday and continuing from the first post, the second post will also show why "THE LORD'S DAY in REVELATION 1:10 cannot be "THE DAY OF THE LORD (Second coming) like some others think it means. I hope you can consider these posts in the Spirit in which they have been given and prayerfully read what is posted and shared with you like one of God's faithful Bareans.

THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY WHY?

Let's look at the scripture and the old Koine Greek

REVELATION 1:10 [10] I WAS IN THE SPIRIT ON THE LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The Greek words used for the day that JOHN was in the Spirit of is the for LORD'S DAY are

REVELATION 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' as ownership or belonging to ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfilment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23..

In ISIAIAH 58:13, we read of a "day" that "the Lord" specifically calls "my day" as in ownership or belonging to:

ISAIAH 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from THE SABBATH, from doing thy pleasure on MY HOLY DAY; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In many translations of Isaiah 58:13 we read that the 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord, is said to be "the Lord's holy day", with the word holy being another adjective, while the "Lord's" is possessive. - /Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

There is only one that he has BLESSED and made HIS HOLY DAY OF REST and has commanded his people to REMEMBER and keep *GENESIS 2:1-3; EXODUS 20:8-11

God's "OWNERSHIP" of the SABBATH DAY or "LORD'S DAY is also repeated elsewhere as "MY" (ownership of the day as in the Greek used in REVELATION 1:10 κυριακη)

EXODUS 31:12-18 [12] Then the Lord said to Moses, [13] Say to the Israelites, You must observe MY SABBATHS (belonging to; ownership to the Lord; or LORD'S DAY). This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

MATTHEW 12:8 as well as MARK 2:27-28 show that JESUS is GOD and the CREATOR of HEAVEN and EARTH as witnessed by MOSES in GENESIS chapters 1 and 2.

JESUS says that he is the LORD (CREATOR) even of the SABBATH DAY. It is the LORDS DAY because on the SABBATH DAY JESUS; Set the SEVENTH DAY of the week apart for mankind as a HOLY DAY. On the SEVENTH DAY of CREATION GOD (JESUS) BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY, and SET IT APART as a HOLY DAY for mankind (BEFORE THE FALL) to REST with GOD. *GENESIS 2:1-3.

What these scriptures prove is that the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH is the LORDS DAY that he set apart for mankind and show he is the creator of HEAVEN and EARTH. Now JOHN in REVELATION 1:10 knew that JESUS is the creator GOD and he refers to the SABBATH DAY as the LORD'S DAY *MATTHEW 12:8. There is no scripture that says SUNDAY is "THE LORDS DAY" but JESUS says he is the LORD (CREATOR) even of the SABBATH DAY *MATTHEW 12:8. JOHN in reference to being in the Spirit on “THE LORDS DAY REVELATION 1:10 is referring to JESUS as the creator of heaven and earth and the SABBATH DAY that GOD rested, blessed and made holy for mankind on the SEVENTH DAY of creation is the one day in seven that God claims as His own.

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So now we have looked at the GREEK application and word meanings as well as parrallel scriptures of the LORD'S OWNERSHIP of the SABBATH DAY from the old testament. Let's look at the new testament scriptures that define what day is THE LORDS DAY asking the question...

WHICH DAY IS THE LORDS DAY OR THE DAY?

MATTHEW 12:8 FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY. (LORD'S OWNERSHIP)

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:[28], THEREFORE THE SON OF MAN IS LORD OF THE SABBATH. (LORD'S OWNERSHIP)

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CONCLUSION: Based on the Greek words used and the old and new testament scriptures as shown above THE LORD'S DAY is in reference to the day that the LORD claims as his own that has it's origin in creation that he rested, blessed and set apart as a holy day for all mankind. THE LORDS DAY therefore that JOHN was in the Spirit on in REVELATION 1:10 is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH that belongs to God who claims ownership of in both the old and new testament scriptures.

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There are many days of The Lord. Judgement day and the Passover are also called the day of The Lord in the scriptures. Christians have been observing Sunday as the Lord’s day since the first century.

clefty said:

attaching His birth to a previous tradition is the real issue...

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If you could prove that the Church attached His birth to any previous tradition, you might have a valid point.

so decorating a house or buying a loved one a present is worship but lighting a candle at or praying through an image is not? LOL

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Any activity which puts undue importance on it can be worship. A drunk would be worshiping alcohol, a workaholic would be worshiping as well something other than God. If you decorate your home and forget the reason for the holiday, yeah, that would be undue importance. If your kids live for the presents and don't remember the birth, yes. Lighting a candle is not worship at all, unless you offer a prayer while you light it. Praying is not worship, either. It can be, but usually is not, unless it's intended to be. I guess my point is, it's kind of a personal thing, what constitutes worship or doesn't. You can't judge because you don't know.

right...wouldn’t want her to interrupt his on the site eye witness live journaling...I mean becoming her son would have him not see her ever again right?

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You mean the one who wrote his gospel 60 years after the events?

no no...they hung them around their necks...or was it on their wrist sundials? lol

even if they did it wasn’t recorded or instructed...

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So what?

bar mitzvahs weren’t tradition yet...you think yours the only one to add to prior traditions? LOL

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While the ritual was not, the age of majority when a boy became a man and had to obey the laws was definitely there.

you keep going there...so is this where ALL the changes stem from...”Pay me $10 and your grandma gets 1000 days off of purgatory...says so in ‘the gospel of not written teaching and acts’” LOL they should have used that argument

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Well, to be sure, there is no such thing. Christ taught us to pray for others, give alms to the poor, and to admit your sins. You can't pay for my sins, only I can. There is no time in heaven, which is where purgatory is, so there's no days to speak of.

yes yes everybody does it...so it’s fine

And yet His mothers did NOT tell anyone...?

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Be critical. Jesus should have done this or that, Mary didn't do this or that.

the fact I have never seen it before means you are doing a good job keeping it a secret...You really should have the Pope change all the other images as misrepresenting Him...maybe that’s why so many don’t find Him?

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I'm sure there are lots of things in the world you've never seen, and yet they exist. The fact is, artists paint what they feel, and the Pope has no say in it. But MANY icons of Christ show the exact characteristics in the icon on my profile. And if you wanted to go see it, it's in a church in Manoppello, Italy for anyone who's interested.

He did...His Father’s Will

Not leaving proofs or documentation or even His own epistle...

Apparently He felt what was already written was enough?

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Another idea...he knew how much time he had, and left it to others to write. Inspired them, I believe is the word.

is your claim...

does it? 7 different churches all with various issues...

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Every church has human issues, but that's nothing regarding the worship system or beliefs.

is your claim...and yet various rites and riffs and complaints now continue...

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Yes, that's humanity. But Christ prayed to His Father that the Church be One, as the Father and Christ are one.

despite clear instruction NOT to worship as pagans do...

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Pagans celebrate Mass? Interesting.

Two birthdays were written of...PAGAN birthday celebrations both...and at which a man died...

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Lots of people died in the Bible. So has every human on earth, eventually. This is not our final place of repose.

Irony sharpens iron...

WHAT AGAIN? You have your head in the very sand you build your whole house on...

Remember the seventh day Sabbath is His way vs no no Sunday

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Remembering the Sabbath and worshiping the empty tomb are two separate and different things.

Make no IMAGE or SIMILITUDE of ANYTHING vs no no look at my ikon

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And yet nearly immediately after saying this, Moses was to put an iron snake on a stake for the Hebrews to look at. No, the issue is what we worship. We should not worship anything before God. A graven image is an idol, like the golden calf, which the Hebrews stated was their god, not some representation of a god. If you work seven days a week and don't take time to worship God, yes, you're worshiping your work, usually.

not sure if you noticed but I do NOT follow the mass...

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Did I ask?I'm not the one being critical of you.

Which does NOT follow Pentecost or Shavuot til now...or any other of His times...

you tell them that then...you did leave the Greek certainly the Hebrew

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No, we have not. We have included any language spoken on the face of the earth, though.

see? YOU ADD because recording a ONE TIME EVENT is NOT the same as “do this in remembrance of Me” neither was it added we are to celebrate His resurrection...however celebrating first fruits festival is given a REAL meaning...

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Neither is it written that we have a concise canon of Scripture, because prior to the 300's, there were different bodies of Scripture. Some believed just the Torah, some believed some of the prophets. Neither is it written the doctrine of the Trinity.

right...SPECIFICALLY teaching they ought to wash each other’s feet John 13:14-15 Now just find me the same instruction for Dec 25 Birthday celebrations with His memorial of death at midnight

so you abuse that with golden calves to worship your god Dec 25?

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I worship God becoming man. Nothing more.

thanks for your charity...yours historically have not been so kind to dissent or the minority view...

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Can say the same for the Protesters.

yes yes...your false worship is much more kosher then the rest of the pagans...

about the same place He said remember the seventh day Sabbath...Exodus 20: 4 “Make no carved image or ANY LIKENESS of ANYTHING...and then B) in verse 5 do not bow down to any made...yours keeps missing that...prolly cuz you don’t list it as the 2nd commandment...

nope...Moses clarifies it AGAIN in Deut 4 He said “take careful heed of yourself lest you act corruptly and make for yourself a carved image in the form of any figure; the likeness of male or female” NOTHING there about worshipping just do not make...

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Well, difference of translation, but Deut 4 says "
16not to act corruptly by fashioning an idol for yourselves to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or of a woman,
17the form of any animal on the earth, the form of any bird that flies in the sky,
18the form of anything that crawls on the ground, or the form of any fish in the waters under the earth.

An idol is something you worship. I do not worship any such figurine or statue. Nor does my Church teach that I should.

down off your Tower of Babel is NOT off a cliff...even he kept most of your tradition...custom...pomp and ceremony

by scripture...just compare it to what was prior...before what yours canonized...btw

and here we are...a remnant remains despite it all

to be determined...

is the issue still...leavened or unleavened

for yours to settle...as for me ALL should be burned...not just dumped into a river...

oh my...

so the holy water in the back of the church can be any water? Wow...

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Holy water is a sacramental. The water of baptism is, too. The effect of baptism comes from the Holy Spirit, not the water.

is not even what the “first Pope” believed...He answered “To whom should we go...you have the WORDS of eternal life.” And NOT “yours is the flesh we need to eat”

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Yes, even the apostles had trouble believing what he said, and many went back to their former lives.

Obviously he understood the lesson of “flesh profits nothing...the Spirit gives life...the words I speak”

exactly what the pagans claim...NOT the very image but what it represents...DUH

yes yes...donations offerings charity prizes honors bestowments blessing rewards tithes all necessary word changes to what actually happens...

do you? You party at parties He never asked for...and contrary to what He actually asked you NOT to do...”but but but LORD LORD we did it for you”

see above....you must be a good gambler too eh?

Isaiah 65:11 see? even New Years the two faced god of Janus the Destiny of Time is NOT in accordance to His ways..

you do exactly what pagans do...use images through which you worship the one represented...a god who allows images to be used by his followers

But He does not nor do His people use them...

coming from you that is a compliment...thanks...

And only because the Bible “you gave us” looks a lot different once opened and actually read...lol

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Well, before, I said I was about done. Now I am done. Enjoy your life.

LoveGodsWord said:

The day of the Lord is not used in REVELATION 1:10 in the Greek.

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It absolutely is.

LoveGodsWord said:

As posted earlier no, Revelation 1:10 absolutely does not say "day of the Lord" in the Greek. Perhaps you need to revisit your Greek.

Here let's have a look...

Revelation 1:10 [10] εγενόμην εν πνεύματι εν τη κυριακή ημέρα (translated Lords day) και ήκουσα φωνήν οπίσω μου μεγαλήν ωςG σάλπιγγος

Let's compare the Greek use of "the Lords day" with "the day of the Lord"

"Day of the Lord" in Greek is ... ημέρα του κυρίου
"Lord's day" in Greek is ... κυριακή ημέρα

The Lords day κυριακή ημέρα is in context to the day John was in the Spirit of meaning the day that belongs to the Lord.

Where as the day of the Lord ημέρα του κυρίου not the same Greek usage written in Revelation 1:10 which is κυριακή ημέρα. Most of the scriptures that use ημέρα του κυρίου is only ever used in context to the second coming.

So nope the Greek of Revelation 1:10 does not say "the day of the Lord" (ημέρα του κυρίου)

Hope this helps.

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I'm married to a Greek woman who has studied linguistics at Masters level. She works as a professional translator and interpreter of Greek. I lived in Greece for twelve years and my children were all born there and are native speakers of Greek. The Church we attend still does the liturgy primarily in Greek. I live and breath the Greek language.

I don't know where you learned Greek and for how long but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
Please don't embarrass yourself further.

LoveGodsWord said:

I see, and you think...."Day of the Lord" ημέρα του κυρίου in Koine Greek is the same as "the Lord's day κυριακή ημέρα" in the Koine Greeks application to Revelation 1:10? You do know that Koine Greek is different to modern Greek right? It is not me that has embarrassed my self dear friend, but thank you for sharing your view.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

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Yes, I am quite aware that there are differences between Classical, Koine and modern Greek. There is far more that is common to all as is the case here.
I am very familiar with Koine Greek as that is still the language of our Liturgy. We use it all the time.

You build your case on the few occurrences of the words in Scripture whereas we have how the words have been used and understood from the time the Church was established at Pentecost. Our Liturgy was formed before the New Testament canon was completed and refers to the Lord's day many times. It's meaning as Sunday became so indelibly stamped in the minds of Christians that the pagan names for the days of the week fell out of use and were replaced with the Christian names.

You continue to embarrass yourself.

Root of Jesse said:

But the Jews had both a solar calendar and a lunar calendar.

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So there were two starts to Passover?

Two days of killing lambs?

And what year AD do you have it?

LoveGodsWord said:

The day of the Lord is not used in REVELATION 1:10 in the Greek.

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It is in many other scriptures.

HARK! said:

Can you present any reliable source to support this assertion?

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It wasn't a sudden change that can be clearly documented. Before the missionary efforts of Paul in Greece they had a seven day week with the first day named after the sun (Ἡλίου), the second after the moon (Σελήνης), the third after Ares (Ἄρεως), the fourth after Hermes (Ἑρμοῦ), the fifth after Zeus (Διός), the sixth after Aphrodite (Ἀφροδῑ́της) and the seventh after Chronos (Κρόνου).

As christianity became prevalent in Greece, they began to follow the Hebrew naming of the week days, where they are named after their order, "first", "second", "third", up to the 7th which is named Sabbath, however the first day was instead named "Kyriaki" (the Lord's) and the 6th was named "Paraskevi" (preparation).
So whereas Western Europe has retained the pagan naming of the weekdays, in Greece they were completely replaced with their Christian counterparts.

Root of Jesse said:

If you could prove that the Church attached His birth to any previous tradition, you might have a valid point.

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it’s wiki I know
“Christmas does not appear on the lists of festivals given by the early Christian writers Irenaeus and Tertullian.[3] Origen and Arnobius both fault the pagans for celebrating birthdays, which suggests that Christmas was not celebrated in their time.[49] Arnobius wrote after AD 297. The Chronography of 354 records that a Christmas celebration took place in Rome in 336.[50]”

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas

Has similar info including multiple days chosen by various important people because well they were attaching His birth to previous tradition which did NOT document His birth...as apparently it was not important in that then previous tradition...

Any activity which puts undue importance on it can be worship.

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so far it has derailed a thread about the Sabbath which too was important but now proving Christmas is kosher is more important...

A drunk would be worshiping alcohol, a workaholic would be worshiping as well something other than God. If you decorate your home and forget the reason for the holiday, yeah, that would be undue importance. If your kids live for the presents and don't remember the birth, yes.

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so as long as you remember the reason for the season you can bring that tree inside eat that ham do midnight mass and celebrate something NOT asked for while doing something asked NOT to do...”but it was for You”

Lighting a candle is not worship at all, unless you offer a prayer while you light it.

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was implied

Praying is not worship, either. It can be, but usually is not, unless it's intended to be.

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hard to define yup...made easier to define if in church or carnival...in front of image of Buddha or in car...prostrate before ikon or walking in woods...

I guess my point is, it's kind of a personal thing, what constitutes worship or doesn't.

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yup it really is a heart matter...circumcised or not? Is why He taught the law is in heart...not just do not kill but do not be angry...or not just do not commit adultery but do not lust...the action OUTWARDLY is determined by the INWARD...fruits reveal your heart...what you obey reveals Who you obey...

As with secular matters...to know what game/sport is being played just figure out what rules are being followed

You can't judge because you don't know.

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by our fruits we are known...the inner world compels expression is why it is NOT just faith alone BUT works...of obedience to Him His way and prepared BEFORE...or do you obey new tradition...

Yah vs Man’s traditions

You mean the one who wrote his gospel 60 years after the events?

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well tradition has her living about 10-15+ years with John...that is a lot of birthday parties to ignore...I mean they did celebrate that important event yes?

So what?

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so what? Shepherds witness to His birth would be critical evidence for the date...and yet...

While the ritual was not, the age of majority when a boy became a man and had to obey the laws was definitely there.

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we do have the story He was left behind in the temple and found discussing with Pharisees...echoed in the confirmation sacrament? A necessary event as becoming a member was not by choice...so needs a confirmation...

Well, to be sure, there is no such thing.

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sure there is...indulgences were recently granted for following live streaming broadcasts of the pope...

Christ taught us to pray for others, give alms to the poor, and to admit your sins.

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right the IMPORTANT stuff was documented not His day of birth...

You can't pay for my sins, only I can.

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well...He paid...your just adding tips for the help

There is no time in heaven, which is where purgatory is, so there's no days to speak of.

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lol...in prior tradition the church took days off punishment...yes yes measured in earth time penance but a good sell...”300 days off for”

In 1567 Pius V canceled all grants...hopefully those “purchased” prior were recognized...

As for time...Isaiah et al says there is time kept in the the New Earth and New Heaven...Revelations too...the very day you dismiss here and now...you think we are NOT being restored to how it was before this detour from the Garden?

Be critical. Jesus should have done this or that, Mary didn't do this or that.

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He did what was necessary and what was important was recorded...His birthday was NOT...

Maybe John should have included it? He did allude to other things NOT recorded...right? As you offered...

I'm sure there are lots of things in the world you've never seen, and yet they exist.

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sure but I have a standard that allows me to ignore what is not important or abominable in this case...

The fact is, artists paint what they feel, and the Pope has no say in it.

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Michelangelo would disagree his quarrels with the pope were history...there were others...but I get what you mean...Ikons however between East and West are contested too...The Father depicted NOT kosher in the East...and the West considered too sensuous...excepting yours lol

But MANY icons of Christ show the exact characteristics in the icon on my profile.

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yes even with the East...gaunt somber long faced NON Semitic...

And if you wanted to go see it, it's in a church in Manoppello, Italy for anyone who's interested.

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still remains a FALSE image...literally...never mind the theology twisted to defend it...

Another idea...he knew how much time he had, and left it to others to write. Inspired them, I believe is the word.

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doesnt take THAT long to poise for a portrait...or throw a birthday party...miracles I believe is the word...or is that adding to the word?

Every church has human issues, but that's nothing regarding the worship system or beliefs.

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right...nothing in Revelations about the liturgy pomp or ceremony...that came later...as tradition then was in line with synagogues or house assemblies...breaking bread daily

Yes, that's humanity. But Christ prayed to His Father that the Church be One, as the Father and Christ are one.

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which up until the 2nd century that house church/synagogues thingy worked...still had Christians regarded as Jews though a superstitious sect to be sure...

Pagans celebrate Mass? Interesting.

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birthdays...only 2 of them...one Egyptian the other Roman...man killed on each

Lots of people died in the Bible. So has every human on earth, eventually. This is not our final place of repose.

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there are lists of what determines that idolatry included in all...”whoever practices a lie” specified in the last list...right before the warning of adding or taking away from the word I believe...

Remembering the Sabbath and worshiping the empty tomb are two separate and different things.

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indeed as ONLY ONE was commanded...worshipping an empty tomb was added...”we did it for you” now worship of Him on Sunday is not necessarily a bad thing but worship on ANY day with FALSE worship is...even seventh day Sabbath

But remembering to keep Sabbath Holy and proper worship any other day is also kosher...

And yet nearly immediately after saying this, Moses was to put an iron snake on a stake for the Hebrews to look at.

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Because He told them too...so you mean to say after telling them to attack Jericho they were FREE now to kill randomly and at will because “well that one time He told us to”? OR because He told Hosea to marry a prostitute we ALL get to commit adultery now?

It was His Spirit in the bronze serpent and after It LEFT there were those like yours who kept praying at it...”through it...to its prototype” finally it was considered IDOLATRY...and was destroyed

No, the issue is what we worship.

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WHO you mean?

We should not worship anything before God. A graven image is an idol,

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a graven image is a 3D image...we are also NOT to make similitudes of anything 2D...and next verse the SECOND PART nor bow or serve any IMAGE made...

like the golden calf, which the Hebrews stated was their god, not some representation of a god.

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because they corrupted themselves with an image...worshipping as pagans do...

If you work seven days a week and don't take time to worship God, yes, you're worshiping your work, usually.

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or in dire need of money...or pressed into it as slave

Did I ask?

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you noted I noted yours is in contention regarding V2 for TOO MUCH CHANGE from the tradition...as I claim the same...protesting the seat of Peter empty since shortly after his death and for changes made in his absence the irony...I am not critical of the office just well its abuse

I'm not the one being critical of you.

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sure you are...you wish to defend IMPROVEMENTS on the faith and by claim Sunday kosher and Birthday parties for Jesus too...Images and who knows what else...because what was prior was NOT good enough...which is complete misrepresentation of what I believe...and in the past yours repeatedly dispensed of MINE our minority view...and will again in the future...

No, we have not. We have included any language spoken on the face of the earth, though.

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but the official was up until V2 the Latin...

Neither is it written that we have a concise canon of Scripture, because prior to the 300's, there were different bodies of Scripture. Some believed just the Torah, some believed some of the prophets.

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odd response to my insisting His birth day is NOT the same as to be remembered as “this do in remembrance of Me” or to celebrate Easter rather than First Fruits...

Prior to 300 they had the Torah and prophets AND now epistles and gospels...NONE of which condoned His birthday or First Fruits replaced...changes were from tradition...which you MUST champion

Neither is it written the doctrine of the Trinity.

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another addition found LATER tradition outside of Scripture...

I worship God becoming man. Nothing more.

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they worshipped God bringing them out of Egypt...nothing more...you miss it is in the WAY we worship...our way or the way He asked us too...all others being Abominable to Him a Jealous God...

Can say the same for the Protesters.

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indeed...especially those most inclined to retain the Roman spirit of order hierarchy and enforcement

Well, difference of translation, but Deut 4 says "

16not to act corruptly by fashioning an idol for yourselves to represent any figure, whether it be the form of a man or of a woman,

17the form of any animal on the earth, the form of any bird that flies in the sky,

18the form of anything that crawls on the ground, or the form of any fish in the waters under the earth.

An idol is something you worship.

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yes...notice no form no form no form NO form...because an IDOL is what is done after the image is formed...or what an IMAGE becomes

is WHY the first part “do not make an carved image or similitude” TO PREVENT “do not bow nor serve” any made...you can’t have the second without the first to corrupt...but of course Israel repeatedly fell into worshipping images they did NOT make...but as other nations did...embracing their images etc

Deut 4 continues with “TAKE HEED...lest you are driven to worship” stars and sun and moon

They obviously did not make them but the SAME temptation to worship remains...

As with a stone or tree...like pagans do...they did NOT make the tree...nor do they worship it but their prayers pass “THROUGH it to its prototype” their god it represents

I do not worship any such figurine or statue. Nor does my Church teach that I should.

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no no of course not...veneration is more commonly used...prayers passing “through it to the one represented”...no bother if someone were to come smash it right?

Holy water is a sacramental. The water of baptism is, too.

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but you claimed ALL water blessed by His baptism

The effect of baptism comes from the Holy Spirit, not the water.

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HalleluYah...see? You DO understand...it is the SPIRIT that is life...not objects or materials or forms...temples made by hands...

It was His Spirit that healed not the bronze formed into snake...

It is the Spirit that is life NOT the bread itself all bread any bread...the Spirit and NOT Aristotelian accidents appearing as bread with Him His entire body within the substance of the wafer....

Even the East more readily embraces the Spirit is IN the Ikon...

Sabbath was made Holy by Him the Creator through which His Spirit made all things for all man...most reject this...

We can not make Holy ascribe the Spirit to where it is NOT...

That was constantly Israel’s problem too...

As if it still is Holy Land...the Spirit is long gone...wasnt even in the second temple but already in the circumcised heart and “inner Jew” minds of His people...and then FINALLY when baby Yahushua was dedicated...

Also a date not celebrated until centuries later...

Yes, even the apostles had trouble believing what he said, and many went back to their former lives.

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because eating flesh is forbidden by prior tradition...He did NOT correct them...or tell them that tradition was overruled...that all flesh is clean now even His...

Peter however understood the SPIRITual lesson of it all...”You have the Words of Life” and NOT “you are the flesh we are to eat”

“Flesh (Ikons, holidays, Sabbath, traditions, sacrifices, circumcision) profit NOTHING it is the Spirit that is life...My words I speak to you”

His Spirit knows His Own...who obey Him His ways..

He calls them to come...grants them passage

Well, before, I said I was about done. Now I am done. Enjoy your life.

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wait wut? There is so much more...
But ok...I pray the same for you then...”choose ye this day”
Road is straight and narrow...May He lead...
“Here are they that keep...”

HalleluYah