The end of the age rapture

fli said:

Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

If we can determine when the end of the age we should be able to determine when the rapture is.

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First we must determine WHICH AGE Jesus was talking about.

This was spoken By Jesus during the Last days of the Mosaic, old covenant age, the age they were all born into and lived in.

It is a biblical fact that the apostles and Jesus were born in the Old Testament Age. This age was marked by the Temple/tabernacle, the blood animal sacrifices, circumcision, the tribal system, and the priesthood of Aaron -- all of which vanished at AD 70 when Jesus' prophecy took place:

He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." (Luke 19:41-44)

Some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down." They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" (Luke 21:5-7)

Jesus, while on earth, had very specific enemies, as did the apostles. These were the Jewish leaders. About these enemies, and to them, Jesus said:
"You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment...behold, I send to you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city; that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom you killed between the sanctuary and the altar. Most certainly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. (Matthew 23:33-38).

This prediction of the destruction of Christ's enemies is repeated at Matthew 21:40-45, where Jesus says he is the Cornerstone that will fall on them and crush them to pieces (Mt 21:44-45). This was FULFILLED at AD 70, plain and simple. Indeed, all the righteous blood ever shed on the earth fell on them for killing Christ and the apostles, exactly as stated and right on time.

fli said:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV

Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

If we can determine when the end of the age we should be able to determine when the rapture is.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV

The end of the age occurs when God weeds the tares from His kingdom. In verse 37 Jesus explains that the field is the world. God sowed good seed in the garden of Eden. His field was the world. Then Adam sinned and Satan became the prince of this world and the field became Satan's domain. The world has to become God's kingdom again before He sends the Angels to weed out the tares. That will happen at the end of the age.

Rev 11: 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV

When the seventh trumpet sounds the world is now God's field again. The “has become” means that a change was made. Now God can weed out the tares. Because God cannot lie He could not weed the tares from Satan's kingdom. It is the end of the age. It take 2 witnesses to prove the truth.

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

This parable is not the same as the tares. In this one the net is God's kingdom and it never changes possession. God could draw it ashore at any time. The rapture is when the net is full and God draws the net ashore. God could have drawn it ashore at any time but He draws it at the end of the age. The end of the age occurs at the seventh trump.

It takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. The end of the age has been established to begin at the seventh trumpet. I have given 2 witnesses now. Matthew 28:18 and Matthew 13: 47.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

The last trumpet in revelation is the seventh. That puts the rapture happening at the seventh trumpet. God has given us 3 witnesses as to the truth of when the rapture occurs.

Does this mean if we are in the last times that we will go thru the first half of the tribulation? No!

Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." NKJV

Jesus is talking to the disciples in the above. (I suggest you read the entire passage to establish the setting.) Jesus has went thru the scenario when the disciples asked when would be His coming and the sign of the end of the age. Then He warned them to always be ready and not to sleep. The disciples expected Him to come in their lifetime. He told His Apostles to make sure they would be counted worthy to escape the tribulation coming on the world.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. NKJV

This cannot be a rapture as described in 1Corinthians or Thessalonians. This will be a calling His obedient and alert church to heaven. The resurrection will happen at the seventh trumpet. The sleeping church will not be kept from the hour of trial. It is not going to be pleasant for the church during the tribulation.

God is still warning us.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming — in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning — 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" NKJV

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Welcome! If you read more closely He said "even till the end if the age" which means, not only will I always be with you but I will also be with you when the "end of the age" comes. So the question is , what age was Jesus Christ of Nazareth talking about? It is clear that several times in scropture He describes the end of temple Judaism. Be blessed.

fli said:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV

Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

If we can determine when the end of the age we should be able to determine when the rapture is.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV

The end of the age occurs when God weeds the tares from His kingdom. In verse 37 Jesus explains that the field is the world. God sowed good seed in the garden of Eden. His field was the world. Then Adam sinned and Satan became the prince of this world and the field became Satan's domain. The world has to become God's kingdom again before He sends the Angels to weed out the tares. That will happen at the end of the age.

Rev 11: 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV

When the seventh trumpet sounds the world is now God's field again. The “has become” means that a change was made. Now God can weed out the tares. Because God cannot lie He could not weed the tares from Satan's kingdom. It is the end of the age. It take 2 witnesses to prove the truth.

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

This parable is not the same as the tares. In this one the net is God's kingdom and it never changes possession. God could draw it ashore at any time. The rapture is when the net is full and God draws the net ashore. God could have drawn it ashore at any time but He draws it at the end of the age. The end of the age occurs at the seventh trump.

It takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. The end of the age has been established to begin at the seventh trumpet. I have given 2 witnesses now. Matthew 28:18 and Matthew 13: 47.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

The last trumpet in revelation is the seventh. That puts the rapture happening at the seventh trumpet. God has given us 3 witnesses as to the truth of when the rapture occurs.

Does this mean if we are in the last times that we will go thru the first half of the tribulation? No!

Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." NKJV

Jesus is talking to the disciples in the above. (I suggest you read the entire passage to establish the setting.) Jesus has went thru the scenario when the disciples asked when would be His coming and the sign of the end of the age. Then He warned them to always be ready and not to sleep. The disciples expected Him to come in their lifetime. He told His Apostles to make sure they would be counted worthy to escape the tribulation coming on the world.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. NKJV

This cannot be a rapture as described in 1Corinthians or Thessalonians. This will be a calling His obedient and alert church to heaven. The resurrection will happen at the seventh trumpet. The sleeping church will not be kept from the hour of trial. It is not going to be pleasant for the church during the tribulation.

God is still warning us.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming — in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning — 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" NKJV

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You state:

The end of the age occurs when God weeds the tares from His kingdom.

I could argue that the end of the age is the beginning of the next "age"

We have the pre fall "age "
We have the Pre flood "age"
We have the pre crucifixion "age"
We have the "age" of Grace .. from Christ to the Tribulation
We have the "age" of the tribulation.
We have the "age" of the millennial reign of Christ.
We then have the new heaven and new earth.

Therefore I could conclude that the rapture will happen at the end of the age we are in.. just before the tribulation.

No idea why that is blue.

Douggg said:

If you are talking about in Revelation 6, beginning with the rider on the white horse - everything is future to us, but near future.

When that rider shows and given a crown, meaning either becoming the leader of the EU, or becoming the King of Israel the Antichrist - there will be 7 years left, and things get progressively worse until Jesus Returns.

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to Jews who will go through the great tribulation.
Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians on how not to have to go through the great tribulation.

By the parable of the fig tree, Christians can know the season that the great tribulation will take place. And consequently the Rapture to avoid it. We are in the season.

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No, sorry. I won't pull that first seal out of its early church context. I was referring to the 5th seal, the martyrs of the church age. The church will be there until the full number of martyrs will have been killed. The 6th seal starts God's wrath - we are not there yet.

ewq1938 said:

Paul placed the rapture after the resurrection and the resurrection after the second coming and the second coming only happens after the great trib has ended.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

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Paul placed the rapture after the resurrection and the resurrection after the second coming and the second coming only happens after the great trib has ended. True, His NEXT coming, FOR His bride, will be His second coming. I agree. That is the only part of this that is truth.

The truth is, Paul place the rapture BEFORE the start of wrath. If we look at wrath in Revelation, it begins with the 6th seal, before any part of the 70th week.

Next, John saw the raptured church in heaven right after that (chapter 7) again before any part of the 70th week.

Why not just believe Paul and John? Did you not realize that the gathering in Matthew 24 gathers for HEAVEN, while Paul's rapture gathers from earth?

Did you not realize that the gathering in Matthew 24 will come over 7 years after Paul's rapture?

ewq1938 said:

There is only one rapture/gathering and it's at the 7th trump second coming, just after the dead in Christ rise from the dead. These three events happen the same day, and only happen after the great trib has ended. There is no rapture or gathering prior to the trib.

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Every part of your post is error. How do you do that?
There will be ONE (1) catching up for the church, but also another catching up for the 144,000, another for the two witnesses, and one for the OT saints.

There is NO gathering at the 7th trumpet. That is myth.

There is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. That too is myth.

Your timing is FAR off from truth: over 7 years off. Why don't you try and correct errors?

Go back and start with 1 Thes. Read it. STUDY it, and fiind out PAUL's timing. He is the only author of the NT that received the revelation of the rapture. Why then try and find Paul's rapture in Matthew? It is NOT THERE.

When you finally understand Paul's timing: JUST (moments) before WRATH, then find the start of wrath in Revelation. It is not hard to find: WRATH will start with the DAY of His wrath: 6th seal. (see how easy?)

So Paul's rapture will come JUST (moments) before WRATH begins at the 6th seal. AGain, It is NO MISTAKE that JOhn SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter in Revelation.

So Paul AND John prove your theory in error. (Back to the drawing board: in this case prophecy 101.)

fli said:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. NKJV

Jesus told His the Apostles that He would be with His church to the end of the age.

If we can determine when the end of the age we should be able to determine when the rapture is.

Matt 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV

The end of the age occurs when God weeds the tares from His kingdom. In verse 37 Jesus explains that the field is the world. God sowed good seed in the garden of Eden. His field was the world. Then Adam sinned and Satan became the prince of this world and the field became Satan's domain. The world has to become God's kingdom again before He sends the Angels to weed out the tares. That will happen at the end of the age.

Rev 11: 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV

When the seventh trumpet sounds the world is now God's field again. The “has become” means that a change was made. Now God can weed out the tares. Because God cannot lie He could not weed the tares from Satan's kingdom. It is the end of the age. It take 2 witnesses to prove the truth.

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

This parable is not the same as the tares. In this one the net is God's kingdom and it never changes possession. God could draw it ashore at any time. The rapture is when the net is full and God draws the net ashore. God could have drawn it ashore at any time but He draws it at the end of the age. The end of the age occurs at the seventh trump.

It takes 2 witnesses to establish the truth. The end of the age has been established to begin at the seventh trumpet. I have given 2 witnesses now. Matthew 28:18 and Matthew 13: 47.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

The last trumpet in revelation is the seventh. That puts the rapture happening at the seventh trumpet. God has given us 3 witnesses as to the truth of when the rapture occurs.

Does this mean if we are in the last times that we will go thru the first half of the tribulation? No!

Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man." NKJV

Jesus is talking to the disciples in the above. (I suggest you read the entire passage to establish the setting.) Jesus has went thru the scenario when the disciples asked when would be His coming and the sign of the end of the age. Then He warned them to always be ready and not to sleep. The disciples expected Him to come in their lifetime. He told His Apostles to make sure they would be counted worthy to escape the tribulation coming on the world.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. NKJV

This cannot be a rapture as described in 1Corinthians or Thessalonians. This will be a calling His obedient and alert church to heaven. The resurrection will happen at the seventh trumpet. The sleeping church will not be kept from the hour of trial. It is not going to be pleasant for the church during the tribulation.

God is still warning us.

Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. 34 It is like a man going to a far country, who left his house and gave authority to his servants, and to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. 35 Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming — in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning — 36 lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" NKJV

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No sense in trying to figure it out. Only God knows. That isn't going to change.

Imagine..... People arguing over the timing of the Rapture....and being adamant that they are the ones that are right... that's new.....

ewq1938 said:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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amen

ewq1938 said:

This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended.

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True it happens at the 2nd coming event.

Thomas White said:

No sense in trying to figure it out. Only God knows. That isn't going to change.

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see this thread -- the "so what?" thread -- Sep 1, 2020 #1

That is where we notice that "just as it was in the days of Noah - so shall it be at the end." Matt 24

There has never been such a thing as a lot of Bible warnings about an upcoming crisis event - where ignoring the warnings and just letting the crisis hit you unprepared "was just fine".

The person in Noah's day who lived 1000 miles from the boat could not rest assured thinking "I am sure we will all find out if Noah is right or wrong some day... why should I trouble myself to figure it out?"

BobRyan said:

see this thread -- the "so what?" thread -- Sep 1, 2020 #1

That is where we notice that "just as it was in the days of Noah - so shall it be at the end." Matt 24

There has never been such a thing as a lot of Bible warnings about an upcoming crisis event - where ignoring the warnings and just letting the crisis hit you unprepared "was just fine".

The person in Noah's day who lived 1000 miles from the boat could not rest assured thinking "I am sure we will all find out if Noah is right or wrong some day... why should I trouble myself to figure it out?"

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People have been preparing for the end of times for two thousand years.

Thomas White said:

People have been preparing for the end of times for two thousand years.

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To some extent yes --

But they did not figure out what "the mark of the beast" in Rev 13 is and so they never knew how to avoid it... which was not a problem in their specific case -- since they were not going to live through it.

They never knew what 2 Thess 2 was talking about in its reference to this was about --
"8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"

But it did not matter since they would never see it.

And if they were confused about pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib rapture it would not matter since they would never see the rapture as "the living".

They did not understand the Rev 15:8 text about Christ's intercession for us in heaven ending - before the Rev 16 seven last plagues - but that did not matter since they would not be alive to see it.

BobRyan said:

To some extent yes --

But they did not figure out what "the mark of the beast" in Rev 13 is and so they never knew how to avoid it... which was not a problem in their specific case -- since they were not going to live through it.

They never knew what 2 Thess 2 was talking about in its reference to this was about --
"8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"

But it did not matter since they would never see it.

And if they were confused about pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib rapture it would not matter since they would never see the rapture as "the living".

They did not understand the Rev 15:8 text about Christ's intercession for us in heaven ending - before the Rev 16 seven last plagues - but that did not matter since they would not be alive to see it.

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If we start marking things we believe to be the mark of the beast as the mark of the beast, we'd have thousands of different "marks." In the past year, I've heard spiritual leaders refer to at least three different people as "possible" antichrists.

God will reveal the mark of the beast when the time comes. He will protect His flock. All will be revealed at that time. The only thing we can do to prepare is to deepen our relationship with our Lord. Believe, trust, love, give, help. Nothing else will prepare a person.

iamlamad said:

Every part of your post is error. How do you do that?
There will be ONE (1) catching up for the church, but also another catching up for the 144,000, another for the two witnesses, and one for the OT saints.

There is NO gathering at the 7th trumpet. That is myth.

There is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. That too is myth.

Your timing is FAR off from truth: over 7 years off. Why don't you try and correct errors?

Go back and start with 1 Thes. Read it. STUDY it, and fiind out PAUL's timing. He is the only author of the NT that received the revelation of the rapture. Why then try and find Paul's rapture in Matthew? It is NOT THERE.

When you finally understand Paul's timing: JUST (moments) before WRATH, then find the start of wrath in Revelation. It is not hard to find: WRATH will start with the DAY of His wrath: 6th seal. (see how easy?)

So Paul's rapture will come JUST (moments) before WRATH begins at the 6th seal. AGain, It is NO MISTAKE that JOhn SAW the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter in Revelation.

So Paul AND John prove your theory in error. (Back to the drawing board: in this case prophecy 101.)

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You both are in error. The OT believers were resurrected at the Cross. Matthew 27.

The NT believers are resurrected upon leaving this body. Paul, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". There is no more sleeping in sheol or the ground. The soul could not be under the alter, which is Paradise, until the Cross. There is no more waiting, because of the Cross. No more resurrection of the church, only the rapture of those alive. Why do you all teach that this sinful body is resurrected? It cannot enter Paradise. An incorruptible body happens at death, not at resurrection. Those in Christ are not prevented by those alive. That means they do not have to wait for the rapture. The OT believers do not have to wait until the rapture or the GWT. That is nonsense. Paul says not even death can separate us. That means death immediately changes us and we are in Paradise. That was Jesus' promise to the first NT believer on the Cross. The thief died after Jesus, but his faith in Christ, was answered by Jesus, "Today, thou shalt be with me, (God) in Paradise. Not 2000 years later!! Paradise is the temple, under the alter, the throne of God. All are there, but John pointed out the most vocal ones were the martyrs.

I am not denying a bodily resurrection. It happens immediately at death. Paul is literally saying they do not have to wait for the living. They come back with the Lamb in the 6th seal to meet those alive on the earth. That is pre-trib. To say there is an event after the battle of Armageddon, is just making such an event up from human imagination. It is dealt with in the seals, because the seals deal with the church, not the general population. The lost have to suffer the judgment of the church, though. The church does not have to suffer the judgments of the trumpets and thunders. To say the church endures Satan's 42 months is just imagination. The only way to endure is have your head cut off. Jesus Christ died on the Cross. Having one's head cut off is denying the power of the Cross, and putting trust in your own selfish choices. Enduring to the end is spiritual and avoiding apostasy. It is not physical other than we should avoid physical wickedness any way, not as a point of endurance. As an example of what righteousness is.

Thomas White said:

People have been preparing for the end of times for two thousand years.

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This is an argument that I hear often.

However:

1/ Israel had not been reborn, in their homeland and with their language
2/ They did not have the technology for the entire world to watch, in real time, the two witnesses.
3/ They did not have weaponry that can kill the entire population. Christ ends the wrath because, if He doesn't, all flesh would perish.
4/ The planing of the temple, the temple implements, the pure red heifer... all exist today and did not for almost 2000 years
5/ The gospel had not been preached to the entire world.
6/ They did not have the technology to mark and track the finances, in real time, of all the people of the world.

There are more. However, it is plain to see that even though they have been watching for 2000 years, never before have all of these things been real and obvious.

The bible says that the generation that sees the rebirth of Israel will not pass before all of the events in Revelation take place. That was 1948. People born in 1948 are 72 years old.. They are the generation that will not pass away..

So, we have every right to believe that it is coming soon.

Thomas White said:

If we start marking things we believe to be the mark of the beast as the mark of the beast, we'd have thousands of different "marks." In the past year, I've heard spiritual leaders refer to at least three different people as "possible" antichrists.

God will reveal the mark of the beast when the time comes. He will protect His flock. All will be revealed at that time. The only thing we can do to prepare is to deepen our relationship with our Lord. Believe, trust, love, give, help. Nothing else will prepare a person.

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I believe that the devil has had someone waiting in the wings.. to be the antichrist.. for most of the last 10 centuries.

Timtofly said:

You both are in error. The OT believers were resurrected at the Cross. Matthew 27.

The NT believers are resurrected upon leaving this body. Paul, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". There is no more sleeping in sheol or the ground. The soul could not be under the alter, which is Paradise, until the Cross. There is no more waiting, because of the Cross. No more resurrection of the church, only the rapture of those alive. Why do you all teach that this sinful body is resurrected? It cannot enter Paradise. An incorruptible body happens at death, not at resurrection. Those in Christ are not prevented by those alive. That means they do not have to wait for the rapture. The OT believers do not have to wait until the rapture or the GWT. That is nonsense. Paul says not even death can separate us. That means death immediately changes us and we are in Paradise. That was Jesus' promise to the first NT believer on the Cross. The thief died after Jesus, but his faith in Christ, was answered by Jesus, "Today, thou shalt be with me, (God) in Paradise. Not 2000 years later!! Paradise is the temple, under the alter, the throne of God. All are there, but John pointed out the most vocal ones were the martyrs.

I am not denying a bodily resurrection. It happens immediately at death. Paul is literally saying they do not have to wait for the living. They come back with the Lamb in the 6th seal to meet those alive on the earth. That is pre-trib. To say there is an event after the battle of Armageddon, is just making such an event up from human imagination. It is dealt with in the seals, because the seals deal with the church, not the general population. The lost have to suffer the judgment of the church, though. The church does not have to suffer the judgments of the trumpets and thunders. To say the church endures Satan's 42 months is just imagination. The only way to endure is have your head cut off. Jesus Christ died on the Cross. Having one's head cut off is denying the power of the Cross, and putting trust in your own selfish choices. Enduring to the end is spiritual and avoiding apostasy. It is not physical other than we should avoid physical wickedness any way, not as a point of endurance. As an example of what righteousness is.

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This is one of those verses.. not unlike "Money is the root of all evil" that is misquoted often.

Money is not the root of all evil.. The "love" of money is.

The verse is not "Absent from the body is present with the Lord".

He says they are willing to be absent from the body AND TO BE present with the Lord.

Don't worry, many get this wrong.

I do believe, however, that when we die.. we are in paradise. I think that these people will return to be reunited with their recovered and instantly changed earthly bodies... and meet with Christ in the air.. upon the time of the Rapture.

2 Corinthians 5:8
King James Version


8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

JacksBratt said:

This is an argument that I hear often.

However:

1/ Israel had not been reborn, in their homeland and with their language
2/ They did not have the technology for the entire world to watch, in real time, the two witnesses.
3/ They did not have weaponry that can kill the entire population. Christ ends the wrath because, if He doesn't, all flesh would perish.
4/ The planing of the temple, the temple implements, the pure red heifer... all exist today and did not for almost 2000 years
5/ The gospel had not been preached to the entire world.
6/ They did not have the technology to mark and track the finances, in real time, of all the people of the world.

There are more. However, it is plain to see that even though they have been watching for 2000 years, never before have all of these things been real and obvious.

The bible says that the generation that sees the rebirth of Israel will not pass before all of the events in Revelation take place. That was 1948. People born in 1948 are 72 years old.. They are the generation that will not pass away..

So, we have every right to believe that it is coming soon.

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I certainly agree with you. My point is that trying to figure out the day is pointless. We will not know until it happens.