Grapes in the Early Spring

The wine was...

  • Fermented

    Votes: 17 77.3%
  • Unfermented

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22

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Proof that I become less sober minded than before on one wine cooler or that everyone is less sober minded drinking one alcoholic drink?

Try reading up on drinking and driving at official government websites. They say even a little bit of alcohol effects or impairs your judgment while driving. They say that your reaction time is slowed.
 
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With a realistic definition of moderation, which meets a Biblical standard, that research has already been presented. You are defining alcohol as a poison. My questions were directed beyond alcohol to poisons
in general. What is the difference between 'tolerance' and 'immunity'? Does a person who drinks a glass of wine or wine cooler as noted above, experience the same effects as say a teenager trying wine for the first time? How is it that you are even defining sober minded for everyone? If someone is too overly concerned with the things of this world to hear from the Spirit, are they sober minded?

Your asking questions from the viewpoint that is not based on any factual evidence. You are asking only with the hope that you might be right. Again, try researching the bad effects of alcohol with even moderate use.
 
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Mr. M

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We have knowledge today that we did not have back then.
If we know that alcohol defiles us and we drink anyways, then we are drinking even when our conscience condemns us (Which is not good).
We have no knowledge whatsoever that Jesus and the apostles had complete access to, aka the knowledge of God, which did not lead them on a zealous crusade to convince their converts to an
alcohol free lifestyle. Was there ever a command to go and make Nazarites of all nations?
Did Paul in all his letters to gentile churches ever speak of adhering to this grape juice only restriction?
Or did he warn against drunkenness and excess, as does all Torah?
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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I remember when my wife (my fiancé at the time), asked me to stop drinking alcohol because her Uncle destroyed his life with alcohol. We went on a date at a fancy Italian restaurant and she did not drink before meeting me. Afterwards (About a week later): She said she did not like the way the wine with the meal made her feel out of control, and it reminded her of her Uncle. When she asked me to stop (over the phone), I was initially upset and angry. Then I stopped myself and said to myself, “What is more important?” The girl or the drink that you barely touch every year?” I obviously answered, “the girl.” She was more important to me than some beverage.
But the thing is that why was I mad? It's because there is controlling spirit behind alcohol. It's why they are called “spirits.” The enemy is seeking to destroy us and to not be sober minded. He does not want us to think clearly. Alcohol muddles your thinking and makes you to lose control. God wants us to take control in following Him.
Very laudable sentiments. However one's personal feelings about alcoholic beverages is not and should not be cause to try to force others to think as they do or force others to abstain because they do.
 
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Mr. M

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Your asking questions from the viewpoint that is not based on any factual evidence. You are asking only with the hope that you might be right. Again, try researching the bad effects of alcohol with even moderate use.
You speak of things that you have found to be right for you as if that should be for all, without respect of personal liberty, or trust in the Holy Spirit to direct them to the place they need to be now, or in the future. Thank you for sharing your testimony. Your rules I can do without.
 
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Isilwen

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I remember when my wife (my fiancé at the time), asked me to stop drinking alcohol because her Uncle destroyed his life with alcohol. We went on a date at a fancy Italian restaurant and she did not drink before meeting me. Afterwards (About a week later): She said she did not like the way the wine with the meal made her feel out of control, and it reminded her of her Uncle. When she asked me to stop (over the phone), I was initially upset and angry. Then I stopped myself and said to myself, “What is more important?” The girl or the drink that you barely touch every year?” I obviously answered, “the girl.” She was more important to me than some beverage.

But the thing is that why was I mad? It's because there is controlling spirit behind alcohol. It's why they are called “spirits.” The enemy is seeking to destroy us and to not be sober minded. He does not want us to think clearly. Alcohol muddles your thinking and makes you to lose control. God wants us to take control in following Him.

Again, your taking your experience and extrapolating onto everyone else. You cannot do that. Not everyone is your your wife or her uncle.

The Bible is against drunkenness not against alcohol.
 
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Isilwen

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Try reading up on drinking and driving at official government websites. They say even a little bit of alcohol effects or impairs your judgment while driving. They say that your reaction time is slowed.

If you are over a certain blood alcohol level, yes I agree with that statement. However, that point at which people become impaired varies.

I can drink one wine cooler, and I am still sober minded. There is no loss of reaction time at all.

Can you prove that for all people one wine cooler impairs their ability to drive?

One thing you also need to remember is that I am an EMT and we have classes on these things. Blood alcohol levels is something we have to learn.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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No. It is not up to them to decide how much to drink. The Bible makes it clear that we are not to get drunk, and wines back then were like your wine cooler in regards to alcoholic content. That does not mean God does not want us to answer the higher calling and to abstain altogether. We are commanded to be sober minded. The moment we drink alcohol, we are less sober minded then we were before. God calls us to obey. I believe alcohol is one of things that we will eventually put out of our lives as we mature in Christ.
The word translated "sober" in "sober minded" has nothing to do with being/not being intoxicated.
G4993 σωφρονέω sōphroneō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be of sound mind
1a) to be in one’s right mind
1b) to exercise self control
1b1) to put a moderate estimate upon one’s self, think of one’s self soberly
1b2) to curb one’s passions
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4998
Citing in TDNT: 7:1097, 1150
 
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You speak of things that you have found to be right for you as if that should be for all, without respect of personal liberty, or trust in the Holy Spirit to direct them to the place they need to be now, or in the future. Thank you for sharing your testimony. Your rules I can do without.

Any or all rules come from God and not me.
Why not do the research on the harm that alcohol does to the body on moderate use?
Do you not know that the Bible says to not defile the temple in 1 Corinthians 3?
See, I believe God is testing us. While we may have old habits from old life, He gives us grace and time to put away things that are not beneficial out of our lives.
 
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The word translated "sober" in "sober minded" has nothing to do with being/not being intoxicated.
G4993 σωφρονέω sōphroneō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be of sound mind
1a) to be in one’s right mind
1b) to exercise self control
1b1) to put a moderate estimate upon one’s self, think of one’s self soberly
1b2) to curb one’s passions
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4998
Citing in TDNT: 7:1097, 1150

Certain definitions you gave actually contradict what you just said.
 
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Der Alte

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Your asking questions from the viewpoint that is not based on any factual evidence. You are asking only with the hope that you might be right. Again, try researching the bad effects of alcohol with even moderate use.
The burden of proof is on you to support your claims about "the bad effects of alcohol with even moderate use."
 
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Mr. M

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Your asking questions from the viewpoint that is not based on any factual evidence.
I am speaking on scriptural evidence as well as personal experience. You have had no impact on my conscience with all your facts and figures and personal opinions. I don't drink anymore, I don't do a lot of things anymore, because the Holy Spirit gave me new desires to replace old carnal things.
Your testimony is no more powerful than mine or others than to encourage others to abide in Christ
and do the Lord's Will.
Do you have any idea how many people who turn away from even considering a life in Christ because some people portray that life of a Christian as a life in abstinence. Are you familiar with the Bible Belt?
I grew up in south Louisiana, a place of revelry. I went to college in north Louisiana, in a dry county of the Bible Belt. Back then, Christians who espoused their own virtues of "I don't drink, smoke or cuss", were considered the quintessential "holier than thou's" of society. I now know better and have much respect for them and you. I thank God for all believers, what would the world be like without them?
Christ came to save sinners, of whom I know myself to be one of great ones. I know that now more than ever, because when we are younger, we don't see ourselves as the sinners we truly are in the heart.
The greater sins of the heart that the Holy Spirit must deliver us out of are much greater than worldly vices. This effort you are making to convince all on this forum, including non-believers looking for Truth,
in regards to alcohol is not just laying a stumbling block for them, you are building a Wall! I beg you to cease and desist.
 
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Mr. M

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Any or all rules come from God and not me.
Really! Not even a little personal opinion? A little personal testimony that you are trying to place on all.
Do you not know that the Bible says to not defile the temple in 1 Corinthians 3?
I completely reviewed that chapter and the actual meaning of 'defiling the temple' on this thread yesterday, and reposted the response as a thread. Weren't you paying attention? Why should anyone pay attention to you, when you take something out of context and try to apply it to something that "goes into the mouth, and not what comes out of the mouth". You are now contradicting the Lord's teaching on what defiles a man, while misleading others on what Paul was teaching concerning The Temple.
 
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If you are over a certain blood alcohol level, yes I agree with that statement. However, that point at which people become impaired varies.

I can drink one wine cooler, and I am still sober minded. There is no loss of reaction time at all.

Yes, there is a loss of reaction time. You may think there is none, but it does exist. Try talking to a police officer or read up on a government website.

You said:
Can you prove that for all people one wine cooler impairs their ability to drive?

You may be able to drive and feel normal, but your reaction time is slowed.

You said:
One thing you also need to remember is that I am an EMT and we have classes on these things. Blood alcohol levels is something we have to learn.

That's great, but you probably did not pay attention to the part that says that your reaction time is slowed even with a little bit of alcohol or a beverage with low alcoholic content.
 
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Isilwen

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Why not do the research on the harm that alcohol does to the body on moderate use?

Just did, here is what I found:

Science around Moderate Alcohol Consumption
  • For some conditions, such as certain types of cancer (e.g., breast cancer) and liver disease, there is no known safe level of alcohol consumption.2,3
  • Although past studies have indicated that moderate alcohol consumption has protective health benefits (e.g., reducing risk of heart disease), recent studies show this may not be true.6-10 While some studies have found improved health outcomes among moderate drinkers, it’s impossible to conclude whether these improved outcomes are due to moderate alcohol consumption or other differences in behaviors or genetics between people who drink moderately and people who don’t.6-10
  • Most U.S. adults who drink don’t drink every day.11 That’s why it’s important to focus on the amount people drink on the days that they drink.
  • Drinking at levels above the moderate drinking guidelines significantly increases the risk of short-term harms, such as injuries, as well as the risk of long-term chronic health problems, such as some types of cancer.
From here: Facts about moderate drinking | CDC.

You notice it says on the last point, "Drinking at levels above the moderate drinking guidelines significantly increases, etc...

So what were you saying about moderate drinking?
 
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Wrong again. You have a penchant for making claims you can't back up.

If a person is intoxicated, they are not of sound mind, or in one's right mind, and they have a loss of exercising self control, and they are not thinking soberly, and they cannot curb their passions like they would if they were sober.

A person will do things while intoxicated that they normally would not do while sober. Teens have gotten into unwanted pregnancies, and deaths have resulted in brutal violence at a bar fight that they would have walked away if they were sober.
 
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Just did, here is what I found:

Science around Moderate Alcohol Consumption
  • For some conditions, such as certain types of cancer (e.g., breast cancer) and liver disease, there is no known safe level of alcohol consumption.2,3
  • Although past studies have indicated that moderate alcohol consumption has protective health benefits (e.g., reducing risk of heart disease), recent studies show this may not be true.6-10 While some studies have found improved health outcomes among moderate drinkers, it’s impossible to conclude whether these improved outcomes are due to moderate alcohol consumption or other differences in behaviors or genetics between people who drink moderately and people who don’t.6-10
  • Most U.S. adults who drink don’t drink every day.11 That’s why it’s important to focus on the amount people drink on the days that they drink.
  • Drinking at levels above the moderate drinking guidelines significantly increases the risk of short-term harms, such as injuries, as well as the risk of long-term chronic health problems, such as some types of cancer.
From here: Facts about moderate drinking | CDC.

You notice it says on the last point, "Drinking at levels above the moderate drinking guidelines significantly increases, etc...

So what were you saying about moderate drinking?

It is basically saying it is both bad and good for you. If it is bad, the good it does, basically does not matter.
 
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Really! Not even a little personal opinion? A little personal testimony that you are trying to place on all.

Not just a testimony alone. I have much Scripture to back up what I am saying.

You said:
I completely reviewed that chapter and the actual meaning of 'defiling the temple' on this thread yesterday, and reposted the response as a thread. Weren't you paying attention? Why should anyone pay attention to you, when you take something out of context and try to apply it to something that "goes into the mouth, and not what comes out of the mouth". You are now contradicting the Lord's teaching on what defiles a man, while misleading others on what Paul was teaching concerning The Temple.

While Jesus says that what goes into the mouth cannot defile you, He was referring to various different foods like pork, etc.; He was not referring to strong alcoholic beverages (Which are poisons) and does destroy the body and can lead to ruining lives. Again, you are being influenced by your favor of alcohol and this has nothing to do with what the Bible says on alcohol.
 
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Yes, there is a loss of reaction time. You may think there is none, but it does exist. Try talking to a police officer or read up on a government website.



You may be able to drive and feel normal, but your reaction time is slowed.



That's great, but you probably did not pay attention to the part that says that your reaction time is slowed even with a little bit of alcohol or a beverage with low alcoholic content.

I have asked for proof to back up your claims, you still haven't provided any. You are also trying to discredit me by saying I didn't pay attention to a certain part of that class, why is that?

I talk with police officers and paramedics all the time. It is part of my job. I actually asked about wine coolers and only having one and what I am telling you is exactly what they told me. We actually did a breathalyzer test (benefits of getting to know the police in your area after seeing them time and time again on medical scenes) on me after one wine cooler to see. It came back 0. No alcohol detected. The conclusion is that I am not affected by drinking one wine cooler in the least.
 
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