Amils have some explaining to do.

Timtofly · Sep 28, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Once again, we have you quoting you without any scripture to back it up.

Nope, quoting you, without Scripture that you already ignored.

BABerean2 said:
You seem to be ignoring the parable of the wheat and tares of Matthew chapter 13, where the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire.

Sheep and goats are separated first. That is what the Trumpets are for. Revelation 8-9 Your fire judgment is not until Revelation 10-11 and the Thunders. Goats are not burned up, tares are, no? At least keep symbolism intact?

Timtofly · Sep 28, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan.

Let's set this straight: Revelation 20:2

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up for a thousand years.

Dragon signified here as the literal Devil/Satan for a literal 1000 years, symbolized by the Day of the Lord. Peter signified what this period is.

sovereigngrace · Sep 28, 2020

Timtofly said:
Let's set this straight: Revelation 20:2

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up for a thousand years.

Dragon signified here as the literal Devil/Satan for a literal 1000 years, symbolized by the Day of the Lord. Peter signified what this period is.

Exactly: the symbols are a dragon and a serpent, the meaning is the devil or Satan. It is really simple.

The chain and prison represent spiritual restraint and bondage. This is in keeping with the symbolism throughout the Word of God.
A thousand is used through the Scripture and throughout history an indefinite figurative amount.

Timtofly · Sep 28, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Exactly: the symbols are a dragon and a serpent, the meaning is the devil or Satan. It is really simple.

The chain and prison represent spiritual restraint and bondage. This is in keeping with the symbolism throughout the Word of God.
A thousand is used through the Scripture and throughout history an indefinite figurative amount.

So if I asked for a thousand dollars, you would keep sending me billions for an indefinite period of time? You really deny the concept of a literal 1000 of anything.

sovereigngrace · Sep 28, 2020

Timtofly said:
So if I asked for a thousand dollars, you would keep sending me billions for an indefinite period of time? You really deny the concept of a literal 1000 of anything.

The fact is: "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount. There is no other mention of this 'one thousand years' anywhere else in the Bible. Again, when it suits Premils they have no difficulty grasping the symbolic use of "a thousand" throughout the Word. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable.

Zao is life · Sep 29, 2020

DavidPT said:
I'm going to ignore your first two paragraphs. No need for me to waste time arguing about what you think I am doing or not doing. That's your opinion

I agree. Hurling false accusations so as to continue to side-step the issues you ask them to answer, then claiming it's you whose doing the side-stepping.

I'm going to answer your post the way all A-mills should, playing the part of an honest A-miller (since they don't answer the things you bring up:-

DavidPT said:
When John was given the visions, which was post the cross, the status of the beast at the time was that it is not.

Yes. John was told:

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

"The beast system" that we A-millers are referring to, is not anything written about in the Bible. It's our way of saying that even though the beast of the Revelation did not exist when John received the Revelation, there was nevertheless a world power - Rome - and this is what we call "the beast system" - it's a phrase we have invented to explain what we are talking about, and although reference to this "beast system" we talk about is not in the Bible, nevertheless there has always been a beast system in the world - just not the one mentioned in the Revelation. We need to forget the fact that the one the Revelation refers to. It leads to Pre-millennialism, and this we cannot have.

DavidPT said:
That means the beast was in the pit at the time. This would be during your proposed thousand years, and here you are claiming that while it is not, it really is, as in it is causing mayhem and martyrdom of saints when it is in the pit.

As above. Forget about the fact that the Revelation says it does not exist and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and receive its seat, power and great authority from Satan. It complicates things.

DavidPT said:
Any reasonable person, regardless whether they are Premil or Amil, would think the beast at least needs to ascend out of the pit first. Which would be meaning, assuming Amil, that it initially ascends out of the pit sometime during the thousand years. If that is true, Amils should have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the beast initially ascended out of the pit.

No, we A-mills don't have any idea of when our "beast system" ascended out of the pit. Perhaps it was with Nero? Some say it was the ascension of the Papacy. It's all too vague, and the reason you don't understand the Revelation correctly, is because you fail to understand that it's a highly symbolic book and what you are reading is all symbolic.

DavidPT said:
If you have been reading any of my posts in this thread, and have been reading them carefully, then you would know I have ever claimed martyrdom is only limited to 42 months at the end.

Yes but it's always a good idea to distract attention away from the things we A-mills cannot answer by pretending you say things you have not said. We cannot tell you why we think the beast has been around since the dawn of the church age martyring the saints - especially since we are told that it's Satan giving the beast his seat, his power and great authority - and Satan is bound - so we cannot answer you and have to find a different way around our dillemmas.

DavidPT said:
And look what else you are claiming in this post. You are claiming Stephen's martyrdom was the result of "the beast system."

"The beast system" - it's just one of those phrases we A-mills invent to explain away the scriptural discrepancy that exists all over our A-millennium system. To be honest, where in the N.T does it tell us about a "beast system"? Nowhere. The only thing that can be called a "beast system", is the system that attempts to force all dwelling on the earth to worship the image of the beast, or receive its mark or the number of its name, or be killed - and it's the image erected to the beast ascended from the pit, which receives its seat, its power and great authority from Satan - who we say is bound.

So you see all this causes far too many complications to our system, and we have to ignore you and speak about something else.

In-between we will falsely accuse you of saying things you have not said, and repeatedly inform you that you do not understand the Revelation. It's a good distraction and this way we can avoid answering the valid points you bring up.

DavidPT said:
Stephen's stoning was within years/decades of when John was given these visions, and John indicated the beast is not, at the time. That should mean when Stephen was stoned, the status of the beast also was "is not".

It really doesn't matter. We have our own "beast system" and we will interpret the Revelation "in the light of" that.

DavidPT said:
But the 42 months can't be meaning after the thousand years, if before that time, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 have already been martyred during this same 42 months. You just don't seem to get it. Unless this beast in question ascends out of the pit first, and another rises out of the earth, where this ultimately leads to the 42 month reign, there cannot even be any martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship this beast.

I may not have answers concerning certain things, but neither do you. To prove it, if you insist that the beast causes the martyrdom of saints during the thousand years, which obviously requires it has to ascend out of the pit first, then tell us the date during the past 2000 years when it initially ascended out of the pit? One thing is a fact, it can't be meaning before John received these visions, nor can it be meaning when he received these visions, therefore it obviously has to be a time post John receiving these visions. So what date did this initially happen, then?

Your trouble is you don't realize the book of Revelation is not chronological and you can't interpret it literally like that. I know I cannot address what you say, but that's our pet answer when we A-mills cannot answer you.

Zao is life · Sep 29, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are deliberately ducking around the facts. I will keep repeating until you address. You obviously have no answer.

The issue is: Amils have repeatedly addressed this here (and on Bibleforums), but you continually avoid the evidence. Sadly, your pattern is: when your views are refuted you disappear from the discussion. You refuse to admit the obvious. That has been your pattern for years. What you do not realize is that the objective lurkers are not satisfied with that, and many end up embracing Amil.

I have already addressed this, and you have already avoided this. You have to do this for your argument to survive. I will try again.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's Coming, as you suggest. I didn't think anyone believed that, although, nothing shocks me in end-time discussion. Moreover, to attribute what you wrongly believe on this to the Amil position is wrong. Amils believe that they continue throughout the intra-Advent period (the millennium time).

Secondly, the beast represents the ongoing reign of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Thirdly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end as you claim. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

Fifthly, there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrew.

The beast receives it seat, power and great authority from Satan. The two are not the same entity - and you say that Satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations. The beast also did not exist when John received the Revelation and does not exist until it ascends out of the bottomless pit, receives its seat, its power and great authority from Satan, and goes to perdition by being first defeated by Christ and His armies and then being cast into the lake of fire burning with brimstone - which Revelation shows as occurring a thousand years before Satan is thrown into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I became an A-miller (but just temporarily, so that I could answer David PT's posts honestly, as an intellectually honest A-miller) :

DavidPT said:
I'm going to ignore your first two paragraphs. No need for me to waste time arguing about what you think I am doing or not doing. That's your opinion

I agree. Hurling false accusations so as to continue to side-step the issues you ask them to answer, then claiming it's you whose doing the side-stepping.

I'm going to answer your post the way all A-mills should, playing the part of an honest A-miller (since they don't answer the things you bring up:-

DavidPT said:
When John was given the visions, which was post the cross, the status of the beast at the time was that it is not.

Yes. John was told:

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

"The beast system" that we A-millers are referring to, is not anything written about in the Bible. It's our way of saying that even though the beast of the Revelation did not exist when John received the Revelation, there was nevertheless a world power - Rome - and this is what we call "the beast system" - it's a phrase we have invented to explain what we are talking about, and although reference to this "beast system" we talk about is not in the Bible, nevertheless there has always been a beast system in the world - just not the one mentioned in the Revelation. We need to forget the fact that the one the Revelation refers to. It leads to Pre-millennialism, and this we cannot have.

DavidPT said:
That means the beast was in the pit at the time. This would be during your proposed thousand years, and here you are claiming that while it is not, it really is, as in it is causing mayhem and martyrdom of saints when it is in the pit.

As above. Forget about the fact that the Revelation says it does not exist and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and receive its seat, power and great authority from Satan. It complicates things.

DavidPT said:
Any reasonable person, regardless whether they are Premil or Amil, would think the beast at least needs to ascend out of the pit first. Which would be meaning, assuming Amil, that it initially ascends out of the pit sometime during the thousand years. If that is true, Amils should have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the beast initially ascended out of the pit.

No, we A-mills don't have any idea of when our "beast system" ascended out of the pit. Perhaps it was with Nero? Some say it was the ascension of the Papacy. It's all too vague, and the reason you don't understand the Revelation correctly, is because you fail to understand that it's a highly symbolic book and what you are reading is all symbolic.

DavidPT said:
If you have been reading any of my posts in this thread, and have been reading them carefully, then you would know I have ever claimed martyrdom is only limited to 42 months at the end.

Yes but it's always a good idea to distract attention away from the things we A-mills cannot answer by pretending you say things you have not said. We cannot tell you why we think the beast has been around since the dawn of the church age martyring the saints - especially since we are told that it's Satan giving the beast his seat, his power and great authority - and Satan is bound - so we cannot answer you and have to find a different way around our dillemmas.

DavidPT said:
And look what else you are claiming in this post. You are claiming Stephen's martyrdom was the result of "the beast system."

"The beast system" - it's just one of those phrases we A-mills invent to explain away the scriptural discrepancy that exists all over our A-millennium system. To be honest, where in the N.T does it tell us about a "beast system"? Nowhere. The only thing that can be called a "beast system", is the system that attempts to force all dwelling on the earth to worship the image of the beast, or receive its mark or the number of its name, or be killed - and it's the image erected to the beast ascended from the pit, which receives its seat, its power and great authority from Satan - who we say is bound.

So you see all this causes far too many complications to our system, and we have to ignore you and speak about something else.

In-between we will falsely accuse you of saying things you have not said, and repeatedly inform you that you do not understand the Revelation. It's a good distraction and this way we can avoid answering the valid points you bring up.

DavidPT said:
Stephen's stoning was within years/decades of when John was given these visions, and John indicated the beast is not, at the time. That should mean when Stephen was stoned, the status of the beast also was "is not".

It really doesn't matter. We have our own "beast system" and we will interpret the Revelation "in the light of" that.

DavidPT said:
But the 42 months can't be meaning after the thousand years, if before that time, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 have already been martyred during this same 42 months. You just don't seem to get it. Unless this beast in question ascends out of the pit first, and another rises out of the earth, where this ultimately leads to the 42 month reign, there cannot even be any martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship this beast.

I may not have answers concerning certain things, but neither do you. To prove it, if you insist that the beast causes the martyrdom of saints during the thousand years, which obviously requires it has to ascend out of the pit first, then tell us the date during the past 2000 years when it initially ascended out of the pit? One thing is a fact, it can't be meaning before John received these visions, nor can it be meaning when he received these visions, therefore it obviously has to be a time post John receiving these visions. So what date did this initially happen, then?

Your trouble is you don't realize the book of Revelation is not chronological and you can't interpret it literally like that. I know I cannot address what you say, but that's our pet answer when we A-mills cannot answer you.

sovereigngrace · Sep 29, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I agree. Hurling false accusations so as to continue to side-step the issues you ask them to answer, then claiming it's you whose doing the side-stepping.

I'm going to answer your post the way all A-mills should, playing the part of an honest A-miller (since they don't answer the things you bring up:-

Yes. John was told:

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

"The beast system" that we A-millers are referring to, is not anything written about in the Bible. It's our way of saying that even though the beast of the Revelation did not exist when John received the Revelation, there was nevertheless a world power - Rome - and this is what we call "the beast system" - it's a phrase we have invented to explain what we are talking about, and although reference to this "beast system" we talk about is not in the Bible, nevertheless there has always been a beast system in the world - just not the one mentioned in the Revelation. We need to forget the fact that the one the Revelation refers to. It leads to Pre-millennialism, and this we cannot have.

As above. Forget about the fact that the Revelation says it does not exist and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and receive its seat, power and great authority from Satan. It complicates things.

No, we A-mills don't have any idea of when our "beast system" ascended out of the pit. Perhaps it was with Nero? Some say it was the ascension of the Papacy. It's all too vague, and the reason you don't understand the Revelation correctly, is because you fail to understand that it's a highly symbolic book and what you are reading is all symbolic.

Yes but it's always a good idea to distract attention away from the things we A-mills cannot answer by pretending you say things you have not said. We cannot tell you why we think the beast has been around since the dawn of the church age martyring the saints - especially since we are told that it's Satan giving the beast his seat, his power and great authority - and Satan is bound - so we cannot answer you and have to find a different way around our dillemmas.

"The beast system" - it's just one of those phrases we A-mills invent to explain away the scriptural discrepancy that exists all over our A-millennium system. To be honest, where in the N.T does it tell us about a "beast system"? Nowhere. The only thing that can be called a "beast system", is the system that attempts to force all dwelling on the earth to worship the image of the beast, or receive its mark or the number of its name, or be killed - and it's the image erected to the beast ascended from the pit, which receives its seat, its power and great authority from Satan - who we say is bound.

So you see all this causes far too many complications to our system, and we have to ignore you and speak about something else.

In-between we will falsely accuse you of saying things you have not said, and repeatedly inform you that you do not understand the Revelation. It's a good distraction and this way we can avoid answering the valid points you bring up.

It really doesn't matter. We have our own "beast system" and we will interpret the Revelation "in the light of" that.

Your trouble is you don't realize the book of Revelation is not chronological and you can't interpret it literally like that. I know I cannot address what you say, but that's our pet answer when we A-mills cannot answer you.

You are totally avoiding my response again, as is David. Premils have to in order for their Premillennialism to survive. So, start by dealing with the facts, not what you wrongly imagine Amils to believe. You will quickly see that Premil conflicts with countless Scripture as enjoys no corroboration in Scripture.

DavidPT said:
When John was given the visions, which was post the cross, the status of the beast at the time was that it is not. That means the beast was in the pit at the time. This would be during your proposed thousand years, and here you are claiming that while it is not, it really is, as in it is causing mayhem and martyrdom of saints when it is in the pit. Any reasonable person, regardless whether they are Premil or Amil, would think the beast at least needs to ascend out of the pit first. Which would be meaning, assuming Amil, that it initially ascends out of the pit sometime during the thousand years. If that is true, Amils should have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the beast initially ascended out of the pit. And Amils should also have a good idea by now as to what date in history during the past 2000 years, that the other beast initially rose up out of the earth. So do you all? Probably not, would be my guess.

Thank you for finally addressing my response to your opinions.

The problem is, you are trying to understand, interpret and rebut the Amil position with a hyper-literalist Premil understanding of the dragon, chain, prison, seal and thousand years. This does not make sense and totally negates your whole argument every time.

Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains. We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent. Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence. He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel. The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

I can agree with this while the beast was, and when he ascends out of the pit. But why should I agree with this while he is not, meaning when he is in the pit?

Once again, because the chains and prison are figurative? Hello!!! We are looking at the most symbolic setting in Scripture. Your literalist mindset is forcing you to miss the import. It is causing you to ignore the apocalyptic genre.

When the Bible depicts the wicked as being bound in chains and held in prison is it intended to paint a picture of a literal prisoner bound by literal chains in a literal prison? Of course not. When it suits Premils they can easily grasp the symbolism throughout Scripture. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable. The most damning thing for their argument is, the setting we are looking at is undoubtedly extremely figurative.
Do you know of any physical chains that could possibly physically restrain a demonic spirit in a physical prison?
Do you really believe that Revelation 20 is describing Satan being restrained for 'one thousand years' after the second Coming when "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount and when there is no other mention of this 'one thousand years' anywhere else in the Bible? Again, when it suits Premils they have no difficulty grasping the symbolic use of "a thousand" throughout the Word. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable.

Of course, the imagery of chains and imprisonment being experienced by this dragon is intended to convey the real spiritual restraint, curtailment, damage, curtailment injury that has been executed upon our invisible spiritual foe since the 1st Advent; one that is not limited to a physical spatial geographical or physical place.

The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

Of course not. We are looking at figurative language. This symbolism is presented to depict his vicious and subtle malevolence. It shows the danger of his presence and danger of his ability.

I certainly agree Revelation is not chronological from start to finish. And I certainly agree it is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period, but I don't currently agree this is including Revelation 20, though.

The major hole in your understanding is corroboration a core aspect of hermeneutics. There is nowhere else in Scripture that corroborates your hyper-literalist understanding on every single aspect of Premil. There is nothing, and you know that. That alone is reason to abanodon it. Amils tend to hold strong to the truth of corroboration. Premils reject its important. That is the main division between the two camps.

The mistake you make is to interpret the rest of Scripture by your opinion of one lone highly-symbolic much-debated chapter in scripture. The evidence of the error of your position is the fact you lack any corroboration for every tenet of Premil. All you have is your private opinion of one chapter.

If I am wrong, please provide me with clear corroboration of these main tenets:

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

If you have been reading any of my posts in this thread, and have been reading them carefully, then you would know I have ever claimed martyrdom is only limited to 42 months at the end. And look what else you are claiming in this post. You are claiming Stephen's martyrdom was the result of the beast system. Stephen's stoning was within years/decades of when John was given these visions, and John indicated the beast is not, at the time. That should mean when Stephen was stoned, the status of the beast also was is not.

Again, your faulty understanding of the pit is causing you to miss the import of this teaching. We are looking at a spiritual prison that involves restraint in order to allow the invasion of Satan's territory through the great commission. Think about the prison the wicked abide in today: does that negate movement and them doing evil? Of course not! This is not hard to grasp!

But the 42 months can't be meaning after the thousand years, if before that time, the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 have already been martyred during this same 42 months. You just don't seem to get it. Unless this beast in question ascends out of the pit first, and another rises out of the earth, where this ultimately leads to the 42 month reign, there cannot even be any martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship this beast.

I may not have answers concerning certain things, but neither do you. To prove it, if you insist that the beast causes the martyrdom of saints during the thousand years, which obviously requires it has to ascend out of the pit first, then tell us the date during the past 2000 years when it initially ascended out of the pit? One thing is a fact, it can't be meaning before John received these visions, nor can it be meaning when he received these visions, therefore it obviously has to be a time post John receiving these visions. So what date did this initially happen, then?

Premils wrongly divide up the fate of Satan, his demons and the beast into an array of disjointed and unconnected events, which are in truth the same overall ongoing experience. This is absurd because their fortune is carefully and inextricably tied together by association, interdependence and divine order. When Scripture speaks about Satan he is the representative head of the whole kingdom of darkness. When Satan was bound, the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm.

All we have to do, is examine the fate of each in Scripture and you will quickly see a remarkable correlation.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. You would need to rip more than Revelation 20 out of the Bible for it to contradict other Scripture. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Zao is life · Sep 29, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are totally avoiding my response again, as is David. Premils have to in order for their Premillennialism to survive. So, start by dealing with the facts, not what you wrongly imagine Amils to believe.

You are totally avoiding David's points. Totally avoiding them. You simply don't answer his points. You don't answer anyone's points when it does not suit you. The finger you are pointing has three pointing back at you. I gave you an example of how to answer someone's points, using the same scriptures he used, without starting at a completely different place with a premise that is based on a ethereal "beast system" that scripture does not talk about - unless it does not exist and will exist when it ascends out of the pit.

sovereigngrace said:
You will quickly see that Premil conflicts with countless Scripture as enjoys no corroboration in Scripture.

If you will start with the facts you will quickly see that Amill conflicts with countless scripture and enjoys no corroboration in scripture.

So my point with parroting you is: When you make statements like the above which are based upon your own opinions only, you're not stating facts. Anyone can do the same. What you said above is an opinion, not based on facts - and you've never produced any scripture which beyond the shadow of any doubt supports your opinion.

sovereigngrace said:
Thank you for finally addressing my response to your opinions.

The problem is, you are trying to understand, interpret and rebut the Amil position with a hyper-literalist Premil understanding of the dragon, chain, prison, seal and thousand years. This does not make sense and totally negates your whole argument every time.

What you say above is laughable. It suggests that the people you debate with have no intelligence, and cannot understand that the serpent and the dragon are symbols for the adversary of God and His Son, and we cannot understand that "dragon, chain, pit and seal" is symbolic of what is real and of what will actually take place.

I could say, "The truth is, it's you who cannot distinguish between what is literal and what is symbolic, having your understanding influenced by false notions regarding (what is in fact) the all-encompassing Kingdom of Christ, which your understanding limits to what your mind can understand after beginning with your starting-premise."

Why do Pre-mills always have to waste time addressing absolutely nonsensical statements like the one you made above?

So let;s stick to scripture and not argue about who can and who cannot rightly distinguish between what is literal and what is symbolic (like adults), shall we?

sovereigngrace said:
Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan.

You are again implying in the above statement that Pre-mills are too dumb to understand that the serpent and the dragon are Biblical symbols for the adversary. Your ability to debate with an adult to adult tone is beginning to come into question, by your own choice of silly statements.

So let us establish another important fact: What you say above does not prove or support in any way, shape or form, from scripture, what you say below:

sovereigngrace said:
The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent.

That's your opinion which is based neither on scripture nor on fact.

sovereigngrace said:
So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

.. and your statements are growing more and more bizarre...

Yes, yes, the text states that the dragon (which symbolizes Satan)...

OK wait, let's make this clear to you, since you think you are of superior intelligence and you keep implying that the Pre-mills are too dumb to be able to distinguish between what is symbolic and what is real and literal:

Revelation 12:19
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

sovereigngrace said:
Invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains.

Do you really expect a reasonable debate with intelligent people when you insist on implying that the person who you are debating with is so unintelligent that he does not know that it's not a physical prison with literal chains?

How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

As every intelligent, reasonable person who reads the text can see, what the text IS talking about in a symbolic way is the fact that spirits and beings CAN be bound by God (in respect of their activity) and held in a "prison" (albeit not a physical prison) where they are UNABLE to escape, as Peter and Jude have both said (1 Peter 3:19; Jude 1:6):

You really cannot expect anyone to regard you as an adult debater if you are going to imply with such ridiculous statements that the person you are talking to is too dumb to see it.

sovereigngrace said:
We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent.

Again, that's merely your opinion, which is not based on fact or on scriptural support - and you offer no scripture to support your view - all you do is offer what A-mills believe, without supplying scripture to support what you are saying:

sovereigngrace said:
Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence.

Again, stating what A-mills believe, devoid of scriptural support or even attempting to offer scriptural support. The truth is, Satan has never had an unrestricted "global influence" (as you call it) - in one fowl swoop, you are implying (almost demanding of God) that there were no sons of Seth, there was never a Noah, or an Abraham, or a Moses, or a Joshua, nor any of the prophets of God (nor even a John the Baptist).

It's absolute nonsense - and you offer no scriptural support for such sweeping statements - but you keep on implying that Pre-mills are too unintelligent to know that the serpent and dragon are symbols of Satan and that chains are symbols representing God's binding of the ability of this spirit being to go about doing what he does to influence the nations.

I truly suggest you attempt to create better posts with less insulting implications regarding the intelligence of the people you debate, and stop assuming you know better than they how to distinguish between the symbolic and the literal or real. Also, offer scripture to at least attempt to support your assertions.

sovereigngrace said:
He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel.

That's only an opinion. There's no scripture offered by you to support it. There was a challenge before Israel. There were the sons of Seth, then there was Noah, and then there was Abraham - and even during the days of Israel, scores of Gentiles turned to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob over time and became converted. Even in the nations God limited or permitted the ability of pagan kings (such as the king of Babylon).

Your assertion that Satan was "basically unchallenged outside of Israel" is patently false in the face of scripture, and is merely your opinion.

sovereigngrace said:
The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations ..

The binding mentioned in Revelation 20 is over all nations (including Israel) - not just the Gentile nations, as you imply. In the promises of God to the Son of Man and in the prophets, Christ was to rule over all nations with a rod of iron.

sovereigngrace said:
.. which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

That's merely your opinion, yet again, without you offering any scriptural support (yet again).

According to the scripture, what was dealt a decisive blow was Satan's ability to accuse the brethren before God - and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb. He was therefore and then cast out of heaven (which was absolutely legal) and his activity was limited to earth - and the scripture states that he then, after making war against the woman who had given birth to the messiah, went to make war against the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This Biblical fact is confirmed by the apostles who repeatedly warn the churches they established regarding Satan and how they should guard themselves against his wiles and how they should protect themselves against him. David has already provided you with the list (which you refuse to believe). Does the fact that you refuse to believe what the apostles taught the Christians in the churches they established not show that you prefer your own opinion above scripture?

So once again, what you say is merely your opinion, which is not based on historical facts nor on scripture - and you offer no scripture in support of all these assertions you make - but you repeatedly imply that Pre-mills are too dumb to understand these things aright.

sovereigngrace said:
Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints.

No one except you is talking about physical restraints when you speak about Satan being bound. Why are you so convinced that we Pre-mills are so dumb that we don't know that it's not a physical restraint?

God is Almighty- He can bind any spirit He chooses to and put them in a spiritual prison (see Peter and Jude) - and to those spirits their spiritual "chains" (whatever they consist of) and their spiritual "prison" is exactly the same to them (in that it has the same effect) as the chains and prison of a human bound in a dungeon.

The fact that the Revelation is not telling us exactly what it looks like but is using symbolic language does not make it any less real.

So, we all get it, without any scriptural support or offering any scriptural support, you think when God gives to Jesus a Revelation to give to his churches via His apostle John, and sends it by an angel and signifies it (ie symbolic language), that you may decide when God does not mean what is revealed and only deals in half-measures or partial measures - so that according to you, without providing any scriptural support, Satan is bound in chains (sort of, partially) and locked in the "pit" (whatever it symbolizes) but only sort of - partially.

OK well, you may not believe what the symbolism which God chose implies, and you might decide for yourself when something is partial and not complete - but the rest of us will take the symbolism to mean what the symbolism implies.

And since you choose to repeatedly imply in your debate that the reason Pre-mills take the symbolism to mean what the symbolism implies, is because we Pre-mills are too unintelligent to be able to distinguish between what is symbolic and what is literal or real or actual", then so be it.

sovereigngrace said:
What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.

Oh for goodness sake..

No scripture, no intelligent reasons given for stating that the symbolism does not "fully" mean what the symbolism implies, just more bizarre statements. I really don't know why I'm wasting my time with this..

sovereigngrace said:
Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.

Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

Once again, 100% opinion, zero% scriptural support added - just an assertion: "The symbolism in Revelation 20 does not imply what the text says - it's limited. God is not saying He was to bind Satan, lock Him in the "pit", and completely inhibit him from deceiving the nations".

Opinion, opinion and more opinion. Zero scripture offered. Then you also ignore or work your way around the teaching of the apostles which state (not merely imply, but state) the contrary.

sovereigngrace said:
Once again, because the chains and prison are figurative? Hello!!! We are looking at the most symbolic setting in Scripture. Your literalist mindset is forcing you to miss the import. It is causing you to ignore the apocalyptic genre.

And once again you have absolutely failed to back your assertion up with scripture - all you ever do is repeat the same assertions which are based on your opinions which are - how shall we put it - "highly debatable". But then, all you do in response is to imply (by what you say) that Pre-millenniiasts do not accept your assertions because we are too unintelligent to be able to distinguish between the symbolism and what the symbolism implies - which, according to you and with zero scriptural support being offered, you can explain.

I'm not going to respond to all the rest. It's more of the same, and even more of the same. Unfortunately I don't have 24 hours to work on one post.

If only you would:

A. Back up the assertions you make with scripture; and
B. Stop assuming that because Pre-millennialists disagree with you it's because you're more intelligent than us and we are simply too dumb to be able to correctly distinguish between the symbolic and the literal or to know what it is that the symbolism implies,

then it would be easier to respond to your posts. But everything I've already responded to is merely opinion upon opinion upon opinion without offering scripture to supported all the assertions made - and repeatedly implying that Pre-millerd are less intelligent than you.

sovereigngrace · Sep 29, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You are totally avoiding David's points. Totally avoiding them. You simply don't answer his points. You don't answer anyone's points when it does not suit you. The finger you are pointing has three pointing back at you. I gave you an example of how to answer someone's points, using the same scriptures he used, without starting at a completely different place with a premise that is based on a ethereal "beast system" that scripture does not talk about - unless it does not exist and will exist when it ascends out of the pit.

No finger pointing. Just strong biblical arguments that negate the Premil theory.

If you will start with the facts you will quickly see that Amill conflicts with countless scripture and enjoys no corroboration in scripture.

So my point with parroting you is: When you make statements like the above which are based upon your own opinions only, you're not stating facts. Anyone can do the same. What you said above is an opinion, not based on facts - and you've never produced any scripture which beyond the shadow of any doubt supports your opinion.

I have repeatedly. Check back on multiple posts. You just have to read them. It is Amils who present repeated Scripture. It is Premils who actually have to deny the very essence of corroboration. That is because their doctrine is bereft of corroboration. Unfortunately, you can only play the hand you have been dealt.

All you are furnishing are words and opinions. Still no corroboration.

What you say above is laughable. It suggests that the people you debate with have no intelligence, and cannot understand that the serpent and the dragon are symbols for the adversary of God and His Son, and we cannot understand that "dragon, chain, pit and seal" is symbolic of what is real and of what will actually take place.

I could say, "The truth is, it's you who cannot distinguish between what is literal and what is symbolic, having your understanding influenced by false notions regarding (what is in fact) the all-encompassing Kingdom of Christ, which your understanding limits to what your mind can understand after beginning with your starting-premise."

Why do Pre-mills always have to waste time addressing absolutely nonsensical statements like the one you made above?

So let;s stick to scripture and not argue about who can and who cannot rightly distinguish between what is literal and what is symbolic (like adults), shall we?

You are cherry picking what I advanced and even then you are unable to actually address what I said but just furnish opinion. Do you think constant denial is a rebuttal? I do not think so.

You are again implying in the above statement that Pre-mills are too dumb to understand that the serpent and the dragon are Biblical symbols for the adversary. Your ability to debate with an adult to adult tone is beginning to come into question, by your own choice of silly statements.

So let us establish another important fact: What you say above does not prove or support in any way, shape or form, from scripture, what you say below:

That's your opinion which is based neither on scripture nor on fact.

Firstly, repeated Scripture uses binding in a figurative sense. The wicked are depicted as being in chains and in a prison before salvation. We all know that that is not literal. Also, repeated scripture shows the binding of Satan and his minions since the earthly ministry of Christ. So, when we get into the most symbolic book in the Bible, it is not difficult to get your head around the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles since the resurrection – the first resurrection.

The strongman was bound 2000 years ago according to Jesus. He invaded the Devil’s house, chained him and took a spoil. We are part of that spoil. This is figurative language.

Satan has been totally defeated through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t have to defeat the enemy, Jesus has already done that. All we need to do is use our God given authority and enforce that victory wherever we go.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Secondly, Christ’s first resurrection was the start of the evangelization of the Gentiles. Most people see that in the New Testament. The Gentiles are depicted in the OT as being outside of hope, blind, in gross darkness, rebellious, bound in chains and in a prison. That all changed after the resurrection of Christ. The NT is a picture of Gentile evangelizing. That is all Rev 20 is saying. There is zero corroboration for Premil scenario of the binding of Satan at the second coming and his release 1000 years later to deceive the millennial inhabitants as the sand of the sea. Amils have many passages that teaches the binding, curtailing, defeating and subjugation of Satan 2000 years ago. They also have many Scriptures that show Christ is the first resurrection.

Even though the Scriptures make many sweeping statements about the Gentiles been deceived in the Old Testament it did not mean that there was none that believed. Just like it makes sweeping statements about the Gentiles being enlightened in the New Testament, does not suggest that the most of them actually believed. These are just broad generalized. Scripture is full of them.

Thirdly, before the resurrection the redeemed dead were forced to stay in Hades awaiting the defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan. The limitations that once held God's people from the presence of God now restrain Satan so that he cannot stop the enlightenment of the nations. Jesus opened heaven up to the elect (both living and dead) When he defeated sin, death, Satan and Hades. He consequently emptied Abraham's bosom and took the dead in Christ in heaven.

.. and your statements are growing more and more bizarre...

Yes, yes, the text states that the dragon (which symbolizes Satan)...

OK wait, let's make this clear to you, since you think you are of superior intelligence and you keep implying that the Pre-mills are too dumb to be able to distinguish between what is symbolic and what is real and literal:

Revelation 12:19
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

And what exactly is your argument? This is not a rebuttal but rather a frustrated rant.

Do you really expect a reasonable debate with intelligent people when you insist on implying that the person who you are debating with is so unintelligent that he does not know that it's not a physical prison with literal chains?

How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

As every intelligent, reasonable person who reads the text can see, what the text IS talking about in a symbolic way is the fact that spirits and beings CAN be bound by God (in respect of their activity) and held in a "prison" (albeit not a physical prison) where they are UNABLE to escape, as Peter and Jude have both said (1 Peter 3:19; Jude 1:6):

You really cannot expect anyone to regard you as an adult debater if you are going to imply with such ridiculous statements that the person you are talking to is too dumb to see it.

You have not addressed my point.

Again, that's merely your opinion, which is not based on fact or on scriptural support - and you offer no scripture to support your view - all you do is offer what A-mills believe, without supplying scripture to support what you are saying:

Again, stating what A-mills believe, devoid of scriptural support or even attempting to offer scriptural support. The truth is, Satan has never had an unrestricted "global influence" (as you call it) - in one fowl swoop, you are implying (almost demanding of God) that there were no sons of Seth, there was never a Noah, or an Abraham, or a Moses, or a Joshua, nor any of the prophets of God (nor even a John the Baptist).

It's absolute nonsense - and you offer no scriptural support for such sweeping statements - but you keep on implying that Pre-mills are too unintelligent to know that the serpent and dragon are symbols of Satan and that chains are symbols representing God's binding of the ability of this spirit being to go about doing what he does to influence the nations.

I truly suggest you attempt to create better posts with less insulting implications regarding the intelligence of the people you debate, and stop assuming you know better than they how to distinguish between the symbolic and the literal or real. Also, offer scripture to at least attempt to support your assertions.

That's only an opinion. There's no scripture offered by you to support it. There was a challenge before Israel. There were the sons of Seth, then there was Noah, and then there was Abraham - and even during the days of Israel, scores of Gentiles turned to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob over time and became converted. Even in the nations God limited or permitted the ability of pagan kings (such as the king of Babylon).

Your assertion that Satan was "basically unchallenged outside of Israel" is patently false in the face of scripture, and is merely your opinion.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (or ethnos) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

We have identified multiple Scriptures that show Satan was defeated at the First Advent. But what was/is the purpose of the binding of Satan?

According to Revelation 20:2, the binding of Satan that we learnt about last week was all to do with the enlightening of the nations (Gentiles).

In the light of this, was there any direct and notable change in regard to the nations (Gentiles) that resulted from Satan’s defeat 2,000 years ago or is that still future?

Was there any notable change in the Gospel focus that occurred as a result of the life, death and resurrection of Christ? Was there any benefit? Was there any increase in the scope of the light shining? Was there a major turnaround in the state of the Gentiles between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

Before we answer that: we should identify the general spiritual standing of both Israel and the Gentiles before God in the Old Testament and contrast that to their general spiritual standing before God in the New Testament. Repeated Old Testament and New Testament Scripture contrast the state of the "nation" (singular) Israel to the nations (plural) – the Gentiles.

Some opponents of this position present to refute the current fulfilment of this passage the deception of the nations. They argue: the nations are still deceived. But they totally miss the whole import of the text. They forget that there has been a seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity specifically in regard to the nations. Before the cross they were in blind ignorance, deceived by the father of lies. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse. Satan had them hoodwinked. They lay in darkness. He ruled the nations before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. He had them under his control.

God controlled one single nation. Satan controlled the nations plural.

sovereigngrace · Sep 29, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The binding mentioned in Revelation 20 is over all nations (including Israel) - not just the Gentile nations, as you imply. In the promises of God to the Son of Man and in the prophets, Christ was to rule over all nations with a rod of iron.

That's merely your opinion, yet again, without you offering any scriptural support (yet again).

According to the scripture, what was dealt a decisive blow was Satan's ability to accuse the brethren before God - and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb. He was therefore and then cast out of heaven (which was absolutely legal) and his activity was limited to earth - and the scripture states that he then, after making war against the woman who had given birth to the messiah, went to make war against the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This Biblical fact is confirmed by the apostles who repeatedly warn the churches they established regarding Satan and how they should guard themselves against his wiles and how they should protect themselves against him. David has already provided you with the list (which you refuse to believe). Does the fact that you refuse to believe what the apostles taught the Christians in the churches they established not show that you prefer your own opinion above scripture?

So once again, what you say is merely your opinion, which is not based on historical facts nor on scripture - and you offer no scripture in support of all these assertions you make - but you repeatedly imply that Pre-mills are too dumb to understand these things aright..

No one except you is talking about physical restraints when you speak about Satan being bound. Why are you so convinced that we Pre-mills are so dumb that we don't know that it's not a physical restraint?

God is Almighty- He can bind any spirit He chooses to and put them in a spiritual prison (see Peter and Jude) - and to those spirits their spiritual "chains" (whatever they consist of) and their spiritual "prison" is exactly the same to them (in that it has the same effect) as the chains and prison of a human bound in a dungeon.

The fact that the Revelation is not telling us exactly what it looks like but is using symbolic language does not make it any less real.

So, we all get it, without any scriptural support or offering any scriptural support, you think when God gives to Jesus a Revelation to give to his churches via His apostle John, and sends it by an angel and signifies it (ie symbolic language), that you may decide when God does not mean what is revealed and only deals in half-measures or partial measures - so that according to you, without providing any scriptural support, Satan is bound in chains (sort of, partially) and locked in the "pit" (whatever it symbolizes) but only sort of - partially.

OK well, you may not believe what the symbolism which God chose implies, and you might decide for yourself when something is partial and not complete - but the rest of us will take the symbolism to mean what the symbolism implies.

And since you choose to repeatedly imply in your debate that the reason Pre-mills take the symbolism to mean what the symbolism implies, is because we Pre-mills are too unintelligent to be able to distinguish between what is symbolic and what is literal or real or actual", then so be it.

Oh for goodness sake..

No scripture, no intelligent reasons given for stating that the symbolism does not "fully" mean what the symbolism implies, just more bizarre statements. I really don't know why I'm wasting my time with this..

Once again, 100% opinion, zero% scriptural support added - just an assertion: "The symbolism in Revelation 20 does not imply what the text says - it's limited. God is not saying He was to bind Satan, lock Him in the "pit", and completely inhibit him from deceiving the nations".

Opinion, opinion and more opinion. Zero scripture offered. Then you also ignore or work your way around the teaching of the apostles which state (not merely imply, but state) the contrary.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy (katargeo) him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

The Greek word katargeo used here to describe the fate that befell Satan. The word means to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative. It means to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. It means to deprive of force, influence and power. It means to cause to cease, to put an end to, to do away with, to annul and to abolish.

It is interpreted in different ways in the New Testament such as ‘bring to nought’, ‘none effect’, and ‘abolish’. Satan certainly sustained a blow that impaired or restricted his movement. Undoubtedly, Satan's power to hold the nations in captivity was assaulted so that Christ could set the prisoner free throughout the nations. The Gentiles, who had been blinded for 4,000 years by the devil, would now see. The Gentiles that were nearly all pagan before the cross have been availed the wonderful opportunity to come to salvation through the victory of the cross and the consequential defeat of Satan. Whilst the majority are not saved, that doesn’t stop the nations been privileged with the truth.

The Gentiles can no longer claim ignorance. Notwithstanding, the presence of the Gospel and the acceptance of the Gospel are two completely different things. The presence of the Gospel never resulted in wholesale salvation to any nation, that is demonstrated even in the Old Testament where most Israelis rejected God’s offer of salvation. There was always only ever been a remnant amongst those who were privileged to hear the Gospel.

I have shown you many times but you choose to fight the Scriptures. Christ won the right to rule over His enemies at the right hand of majesty through His sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. You reject this. You oppose this. You render the cross meaningless, Christ powerless and His reign fictional. You present a BIG devil and a small god.

Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially His death, burial and resurrection, as the time when the devil was spiritually restricted (or bound) from operating in his former manner. I John 3:8 declares, “For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or undo) the works of the devil.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favored nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epicenter of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna.

Colossians 2:13-15 tells us: “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh (speaking about the Gentiles), hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

2 Peter 2:4, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says, “the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

It would seem that anyone that had no theological axe to grind would easily see an allusion to the whole demonic realm in these descriptions. Most balanced theologians would accept that there are only two angelic groupings – the elect angels and the demonic angels. The righteous angels are located within the kingdom of God and the wicked angels within the kingdom of darkness. These are that are ruled by two opposing kings.

It is right for us to ask our premillennial brethren: “who are these fallen angels that do not come within the definition scope of “the angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 6) and "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4)?

Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Revelation 9:10-11 significantly adds: “they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

Here we have a king reigning over them called “Abaddon” and “Apollyon.” Here is proof and corroboration that Satan is located in the abyss before the second coming not after it as Premils claim.

Zao is life · Sep 30, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Hebrews 2:14-15 says of Christ’s great atoning death, “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy (katargeo) him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”

The Greek word katargeo used here to describe the fate that befell Satan. The word means to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative. It means to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. It means to deprive of force, influence and power. It means to cause to cease, to put an end to, to do away with, to annul and to abolish.

It is interpreted in different ways in the New Testament such as ‘bring to nought’, ‘none effect’, and ‘abolish’. Satan certainly sustained a blow that impaired or restricted his movement. Undoubtedly, Satan's power to hold the nations in captivity was assaulted so that Christ could set the prisoner free throughout the nations. The Gentiles, who had been blinded for 4,000 years by the devil, would now see. The Gentiles that were nearly all pagan before the cross have been availed the wonderful opportunity to come to salvation through the victory of the cross and the consequential defeat of Satan. Whilst the majority are not saved, that doesn’t stop the nations been privileged with the truth.

The Gentiles can no longer claim ignorance. Notwithstanding, the presence of the Gospel and the acceptance of the Gospel are two completely different things. The presence of the Gospel never resulted in wholesale salvation to any nation, that is demonstrated even in the Old Testament where most Israelis rejected God’s offer of salvation. There was always only ever been a remnant amongst those who were privileged to hear the Gospel.

I have shown you many times but you choose to fight the Scriptures. Christ won the right to rule over His enemies at the right hand of majesty through His sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. You reject this. You oppose this. You render the cross meaningless, Christ powerless and His reign fictional. You present a BIG devil and a small god.

Time and time again Scripture identifies Christ’s earthly ministry, and especially His death, burial and resurrection, as the time when the devil was spiritually restricted (or bound) from operating in his former manner. I John 3:8 declares, “For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy (or luo or undo) the works of the devil.”

The devil sustained a significant spiritual head-blow at Calvary (as predicted in Genesis 3), which has restricted his wide area of influence in this world. Countless multitudes have been rescued from the grip of Satan. Christ came with that expressed assignment to destroy the devil by bruising and crushing the serpent's head. Before the Cross he deluded all the nations of the world apart from the highly favored nation of natural Israel. Tiny Israel was the epicenter of God’s plan of salvation before the cross, although even choice Israel was in a state of apostasy when Christ arrived. This is demonstrated by the fact there were only two godly believers waiting for Him when He first appeared in the temple – Simeon and Anna.

Colossians 2:13-15 tells us: “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh (speaking about the Gentiles), hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

2 Peter 2:4, “God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

Jude supports the view of a current binding of the whole kingdom of darkness, in v 6, when he says, “the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

It would seem that anyone that had no theological axe to grind would easily see an allusion to the whole demonic realm in these descriptions. Most balanced theologians would accept that there are only two angelic groupings – the elect angels and the demonic angels. The righteous angels are located within the kingdom of God and the wicked angels within the kingdom of darkness. These are that are ruled by two opposing kings.

It is right for us to ask our premillennial brethren: “who are these fallen angels that do not come within the definition scope of “the angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 6) and "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4)?

Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Revelation 9:10-11 significantly adds: “they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

Here we have a king reigning over them called “Abaddon” and “Apollyon.” Here is proof and corroboration that Satan is located in the abyss before the second coming not after it as Premils claim.

In the Greek, chiliás = a thousand (one thousand).

One thousand (a thousand, one thousand): χιλιάς chiliás.

Two thousands: δισχίλιοι dischílioi (example Mark 5:13)
Three thousands: τρισχίλιοι trischílioi (example Acts 2:41)
Four thousands: τετρακισχίλιοι tetrakischílioi (example Matthew 15:38)
Seven thousands: ἑπτακισχίλιοι heptakischílioi (example Romans 11:4)
Five thousands: πεντακισχίλιοι pentakischílioi (example Matthew 14:21)

Five thousand: (five times a thousand) Five (πέντε pénte) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = pénte chiliás, five thousand (example Acts 4:4)

Ten thousand: (ten times a thousand) Ten (δέκα déka) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = déka chiliás, ten thousand (example Luke 14:31)

Ten thousands: μύριοι mýrioi (example 1 Corinthians 4:15)

Twelve thousand: (Twelve times a thousand) δώδεκα dṓdeka (twelve) times (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = dṓdeka chiliás, twelve thousand (example Revelation 7:5)

Twenty thousand: Twenty (εἴκοσι eíkosi) times a thousand ((χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = eíkosi chiliás (example Luke 14:31)

Fifty thousand: Five (πέντε pénte) times ten thousands (μυριάς myriás) = pénte myriás, fifty thousands (example Acts 19:19)

Thousands: μυριάς myriás (example Acts 21:20)

One thousand (a thousand, one thousand): χιλιάς chiliás (Revelation 20:2)

Revelation 5:11
"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousands (μυριάς myriás) times ten thousands (μυριάς myriás), and a thousand (chiliás) times a thousand (chiliás)

You will, of course, ignore the Greek in Revelation 20, which clearly speaks of only one thousand, a thousand years, but there are also so many scriptures which cause your false claim that Satan is "bound" (and therefore unable to hinder the spread of the gospel because he is "bound") to fall flat.

Here are only two:

1 Thessalonians 2:18
"Therefore we desired to come to you, truly I, Paul, both once and twice; but Satan hindered us."

Galatians 5:6-9
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love. You were running well. Who hindered you that you do not obey the truth? This persuasion is not from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens all the lump."

It was not merely the legalist party insisting on circumcision who hindered the Galatians regarding the truth. Who hindered the Jewish legalist party who hindered the Galtaians? It's the same spirit that hindered Paul when he was attempting to reach the Christians in Thessalonica.

Satan hinders the church today with regard to the truth in many ways, among which is this belief that Satan is bound, and the one thousand years spoken of in Revelation 20 is symbolic of thousands of years.

sovereigngrace · Sep 30, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
In the Greek, chiliás = a thousand (one thousand).

One thousand (a thousand, one thousand): χιλιάς chiliás.

Two thousands: δισχίλιοι dischílioi (example Mark 5:13)
Three thousands: τρισχίλιοι trischílioi (example Acts 2:41)
Four thousands: τετρακισχίλιοι tetrakischílioi (example Matthew 15:38)
Seven thousands: ἑπτακισχίλιοι heptakischílioi (example Romans 11:4)
Five thousands: πεντακισχίλιοι pentakischílioi (example Matthew 14:21)

Five thousand: (five times a thousand) Five (πέντε pénte) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = pénte chiliás, five thousand (example Acts 4:4)

Ten thousand: (ten times a thousand) Ten (δέκα déka) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = déka chiliás, ten thousand (example Luke 14:31)

Ten thousands: μύριοι mýrioi (example 1 Corinthians 4:15)

Twelve thousand: (Twelve times a thousand) δώδεκα dṓdeka (twelve) times (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = dṓdeka chiliás, twelve thousand (example Revelation 7:5)

Twenty thousand: Twenty (εἴκοσι eíkosi) times a thousand ((χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = eíkosi chiliás (example Luke 14:31)

Fifty thousand: Five (πέντε pénte) times ten thousands (μυριάς myriás) = pénte myriás, fifty thousands (example Acts 19:19)

Thousands: μυριάς myriás (example Acts 21:20)

One thousand (a thousand, one thousand): χιλιάς chiliás (Revelation 20:2)

Revelation 5:11
"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousands (μυριάς myriás) times ten thousands (μυριάς myriás), and a thousand (chiliás) times a thousand (chiliás)

You will, of course, ignore the Greek in Revelation 20, which clearly speaks of only one thousand, a thousand years, but there are also so many scriptures which cause your false claim that Satan is "bound" (and therefore unable to hinder the spread of the gospel because he is "bound") to fall flat.

Here are only two:

1 Thessalonians 2:18
"Therefore we desired to come to you, truly I, Paul, both once and twice; but Satan hindered us."

Galatians 5:6-9
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love. You were running well. Who hindered you that you do not obey the truth? This persuasion is not from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens all the lump."

It was not merely the legalist party insisting on circumcision who hindered the Galatians regarding the truth. Who hindered the Jewish legalist party who hindered the Galtaians? It's the same spirit that hindered Paul when he was attempting to reach the Christians in Thessalonica.

Satan hinders the church today with regard to the truth in many ways, among which is this belief that Satan is bound, and the one thousand years spoken of in Revelation 20 is symbolic of thousands of years.

Please address my main arguments.

Zao is life · Sep 30, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

Just because you take it upon yourself the right to take great liberty with the above passage (and many other scriptures), ripping it completely out of its context (which is Jesus reply to the Pharisees' false accusation against Him regarding by which power He was casting out demons), does not mean there is any truth whatsoever in the conclusions you have drawn from it.

If there was any truth in the faulty conclusions you've drawn from the Lord's statements whatsoever, Jesus would only have bound Satan once, and never again - but the truth is, because Satan was not bound in the manner which Revelation 20 states he will be, Jesus had to "bind" Satan over and over, every time He cast out demons - and not only He, but his apostles after him - apostles who happened to teach us that Satan roams about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

Taking it upon yourself to create meaning in a passage which is not there is a liberty which no one has the right to. God does not give anyone that right, and the meaning you have added to the above passage is not there.

The rest of your long, long post is mere repetition of the false conclusion you draw, and is based upon it. Therefore answering what you said above is answering all of it.

No one who does not believe the Word of Truth is able to right divide it, without adding meaning to texts which does not exist (such as you have done above), or subtracting meaning from the text which is in the text. Revelation 12 tells you that Satan's right and ability to accuse the brethren (and indeed all mankind, since Christ is the Son of Man and the last Adam) was completely destroyed by the death and resurrection of Christ, so Satan was legally evicted from the court room in heaven, because the only reason he was permitted to appear in the court room in the first place was because of the sin of man. Revelation 12 then tells you that Satan was cast down to earth, and after going to make war against the woman who brought the Messiah into the world, he then proceeded to make war against the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The apostles confirm this by repeatedly teaching and warning the Christians in the churches they established about the reality of the existence and activities of Satan, teaching them how to guard against Satan, and how to protect themselves against him.

Revelation 17 tells you that the beast that is to ascend from the abyss existed, did not exist when John received the Revelation, and will ascend from the abyss and go to perdition. Revelation 13 tells you that when the beast ascends out of the abyss, Satan will give it his seat, his power and great authority. Revelation 13 also tells you that the same beast will reign for 42 months, and will make war against the saints and overcome them. Revelation 11 tells you that the same beast will make war against the two witnesses, overcome them and kill them, and they will rise from the dead after 3 1/2 days. The apostle Paul tells you that at the sounding of the last trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who are still alive will be changed.

Revelation 16, 17 and 19 tells you that the beast will gather its armies against the Lamb (in a battle which Revelation 16 calls "Armageddon"), and that Christ will come with His armies, defeat the beast and the false prophet, and throw both into "the lake of fire burning with brimstone". Revelation 20 tells you that Satan will be likewise destroyed in the lake of fire a thousand years later, after being bound a thousand years, during which time he will be in the abyss and unable to deceive the nations

- and as I've shown in my previous post, the Greek word used in Revelation 20 is the Greek word for one (only one) thousand. Thanks to EWQR in CF for mentioning the distinction and prompting me to go and search the scriptures (You will no doubt simply ignore the facts that get in the way of your erroneous and false treatise).

No one has the right to take liberty with any Biblical text by taking it upon himself to add a meaning to the passage which does not exist. Jesus was merely pointing out the obvious to the Pharisees who had falsely accused Him and had ascribed the power by which He was casting out demons to Beelzebub. You cannot add more to what Jesus said than what exists in the text just because it suits your treatise.

You've proved nothing except that you are interpreting Biblical passages and Biblical texts "in the light of" your faulty starting premise, which is no "light" at all.

sovereigngrace · Sep 30, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Just because you take it upon yourself the right to take great liberty with the above passage (and many other scriptures), ripping it completely out of its context (which is Jesus reply to the Pharisees' false accusation against Him regarding by which power He was casting out demons), does not mean there is any truth whatsoever in the conclusions you have drawn from it.

If there was any truth in the faulty conclusions you've drawn from the Lord's statements whatsoever, Jesus would only have bound Satan once, and never again - but the truth is, because Satan was not bound in the manner which Revelation 20 states he will be, Jesus had to "bind" Satan over and over, every time He cast out demons - and not only He, but his apostles after him - apostles who happened to teach us that Satan roams about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

Taking it upon yourself to create meaning in a passage which is not there is a liberty which no one has the right to. God does not give anyone that right, and the meaning you have added to the above passage is not there.

The rest of your long, long post is mere repetition of the false conclusion you draw, and is based upon it. Therefore answering what you said above is answering all of it.

No one who does not believe the Word of Truth is able to right divide it, without adding meaning to texts which does not exist (such as you have done above), or subtracting meaning from the text which is in the text. Revelation 12 tells you that Satan's right and ability to accuse the brethren (and indeed all mankind, since Christ is the Son of Man and the last Adam) was completely destroyed by the death and resurrection of Christ, so Satan was legally evicted from the court room in heaven, because the only reason he was permitted to appear in the court room in the first place was because of the sin of man. Revelation 12 then tells you that Satan was cast down to earth, and after going to make war against the woman who brought the Messiah into the world, he then proceeded to make war against the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The apostles confirm this by repeatedly teaching and warning the Christians in the churches they established about the reality of the existence and activities of Satan, teaching them how to guard against Satan, and how to protect themselves against him.

Revelation 17 tells you that the beast that is to ascend from the abyss existed, did not exist when John received the Revelation, and will ascend from the abyss and go to perdition. Revelation 13 tells you that when the beast ascends out of the abyss, Satan will give it his seat, his power and great authority. Revelation 13 also tells you that the same beast will reign for 42 months, and will make war against the saints and overcome them. Revelation 11 tells you that the same beast will make war against the two witnesses, overcome them and kill them, and they will rise from the dead after 3 1/2 days. The apostle Paul tells you that at the sounding of the last trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who are still alive will be changed.

Revelation 16, 17 and 19 tells you that the beast will gather its armies against the Lamb (in a battle which Revelation 16 calls "Armageddon"), and that Christ will come with His armies, defeat the beast and the false prophet, and throw both into "the lake of fire burning with brimstone". Revelation 20 tells you that Satan will be likewise destroyed in the lake of fire a thousand years later, after being bound a thousand years, during which time he will be in the abyss and unable to deceive the nations

- and as I've shown in my previous post, the Greek word used in Revelation 20 is the Greek word for one (only one) thousand. Thanks to EWQR in CF for mentioning the distinction and prompting me to go and search the scriptures (You will no doubt simply ignore the facts that get in the way of your erroneous and false treatise).

No one has the right to take liberty with any Biblical text by taking it upon himself to add a meaning to the passage which does not exist. Jesus was merely pointing out the obvious to the Pharisees who had falsely accused Him and had ascribed the power by which He was casting out demons to Beelzebub. You cannot add more to what Jesus said than what exists in the text just because it suits your treatise.

You've proved nothing except that you are interpreting Biblical passages and Biblical texts "in the light of" your faulty starting premise, which is no "light" at all.

Once again you skip around every text / argument I present and just have a rant. That is telling . You clearly have no rebuttal.

sovereigngrace · Sep 30, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Just because you take it upon yourself the right to take great liberty with the above passage (and many other scriptures), ripping it completely out of its context (which is Jesus reply to the Pharisees' false accusation against Him regarding by which power He was casting out demons), does not mean there is any truth whatsoever in the conclusions you have drawn from it.

If there was any truth in the faulty conclusions you've drawn from the Lord's statements whatsoever, Jesus would only have bound Satan once, and never again - but the truth is, because Satan was not bound in the manner which Revelation 20 states he will be, Jesus had to "bind" Satan over and over, every time He cast out demons - and not only He, but his apostles after him - apostles who happened to teach us that Satan roams about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

Taking it upon yourself to create meaning in a passage which is not there is a liberty which no one has the right to. God does not give anyone that right, and the meaning you have added to the above passage is not there.

The rest of your long, long post is mere repetition of the false conclusion you draw, and is based upon it. Therefore answering what you said above is answering all of it.

No one who does not believe the Word of Truth is able to right divide it, without adding meaning to texts which does not exist (such as you have done above), or subtracting meaning from the text which is in the text. Revelation 12 tells you that Satan's right and ability to accuse the brethren (and indeed all mankind, since Christ is the Son of Man and the last Adam) was completely destroyed by the death and resurrection of Christ, so Satan was legally evicted from the court room in heaven, because the only reason he was permitted to appear in the court room in the first place was because of the sin of man. Revelation 12 then tells you that Satan was cast down to earth, and after going to make war against the woman who brought the Messiah into the world, he then proceeded to make war against the rest of her offspring who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The apostles confirm this by repeatedly teaching and warning the Christians in the churches they established about the reality of the existence and activities of Satan, teaching them how to guard against Satan, and how to protect themselves against him.

Revelation 17 tells you that the beast that is to ascend from the abyss existed, did not exist when John received the Revelation, and will ascend from the abyss and go to perdition. Revelation 13 tells you that when the beast ascends out of the abyss, Satan will give it his seat, his power and great authority. Revelation 13 also tells you that the same beast will reign for 42 months, and will make war against the saints and overcome them. Revelation 11 tells you that the same beast will make war against the two witnesses, overcome them and kill them, and they will rise from the dead after 3 1/2 days. The apostle Paul tells you that at the sounding of the last trumpet, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who are still alive will be changed.

Revelation 16, 17 and 19 tells you that the beast will gather its armies against the Lamb (in a battle which Revelation 16 calls "Armageddon"), and that Christ will come with His armies, defeat the beast and the false prophet, and throw both into "the lake of fire burning with brimstone". Revelation 20 tells you that Satan will be likewise destroyed in the lake of fire a thousand years later, after being bound a thousand years, during which time he will be in the abyss and unable to deceive the nations

- and as I've shown in my previous post, the Greek word used in Revelation 20 is the Greek word for one (only one) thousand. Thanks to EWQR in CF for mentioning the distinction and prompting me to go and search the scriptures (You will no doubt simply ignore the facts that get in the way of your erroneous and false treatise).

No one has the right to take liberty with any Biblical text by taking it upon himself to add a meaning to the passage which does not exist. Jesus was merely pointing out the obvious to the Pharisees who had falsely accused Him and had ascribed the power by which He was casting out demons to Beelzebub. You cannot add more to what Jesus said than what exists in the text just because it suits your treatise.

You've proved nothing except that you are interpreting Biblical passages and Biblical texts "in the light of" your faulty starting premise, which is no "light" at all.

Duplicate

5thKingdom · Oct 1, 2020

DavidPT said:
According to Rev 9 there are also locusts in this same pit. What are they able to transform themselves into while locked in the pit?

Actually, that is a very common error.
The Locusts were not in the pit. They came OUT of the
darkness that arose from the pit.

Darkness arising from Pit = Satan rising from pit
Locusts = those preaching Satan's false doctrines
BTW: in OT Locusts represent false prophets
--------------
In the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast there are many
who preach Satanic false doctrines (the Locusts). The same
is revealed in Mat 24. That is the NATURE of the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] which consists of both
"wise virgins" and "foolish virgins" preaching false doctrines
during the 1st Woe (Fifth Trumpet). These wise and foolish
are separated at the 2nd Woe (Sixth Trumpet) [Rev 9:18-21]

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

DavidPT · Oct 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
Actually, that is a very common error.
The Locusts were not in the pit. They came OUT of the
darkness that arose from the pit.

Darkness arising from Pit = Satan rising from pit
Locusts = those preaching Satan's false doctrines
BTW: in OT Locusts represent false prophets
--------------
In the Great Tribulation / Revelation Beast there are many
who preach Satanic false doctrines (the Locusts). The same
is revealed in Mat 24. That is the NATURE of the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] which consists of both
"wise virgins" and "foolish virgins" preaching false doctrines
during the 1st Woe (Fifth Trumpet). These wise and foolish
are separated at the 2nd Woe (Sixth Trumpet) [Rev 9:18-21]

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

I see what you are meaning and how you are arriving at that, yet I'm still not convinced the locusts were not confined in the pit until someone had opened it. You seem to think the pit is opened in order to let satan out. But how could that be? In Revelation 12 it covers at least the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is in the pit.

Before satan is cast to the earth he still had access to heaven in some sense, whether literally or not, I'm not sure. The point would be, when he still had this access he would not have been in the pit at anytime. Eventually there is a war in heaven and that satan is cast unto the earth, having great wrath, because he knows his time is short. So, where in any of this can we find his initial getting cast into the pit for a thousand years? He obviously would not have great wrath while in the pit. That doesn't make sense.

In order for satan to emerge from the pit in Revelation 9 means he has to be cast into it first. So once again, where in Revelation 12 can we find where he is cast into the pit initially?

5thKingdom · Oct 1, 2020

DavidPT said:
I see what you are meaning and how you are arriving at that, yet I'm still not convinced the locusts were not confined in the pit until someone had opened it. You seem to think the pit is opened in order to let satan out. But how could that be? In Revelation 12 it covers at least the past 2000 years, the same 2000 years Amils claim satan is in the pit.

(1) The Locusts came OUT OF THE SMOKE... there is no
question what the text says. The Locusts represent PEOPLE
while Satan and the demons are spirits. The Locusts are the
LAST "wheat and tares" of the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13]. They are the
"wheat and tares" living in the Revelation Beast.

The Pit was opened to let Satan out.
He was "bound" for 1000 years then he must be "loosened"
for his "Little Season" which is the Revelation Beast and/or
the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven". [Rev 20:3]
The 1000 years is symbolic

Rev 12 shows two periods. One being the 1260 days when
the church is protected [Rev 12:6] the other period being
when Satan is "loosened" to make war with the Last Saints
[Rev 12:17] and the saints are protected for 3.5 "times"
[Rev 12:14] which is the duration of the Great Tribulation.
This is shown in MANY different Scriptures.

The "Woman" [the Last Saints] who are hidden from the face of the Serpent
for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]

The "Holy People" [the Last Saints] whose power is scattered by the Anti-Christ
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

The "Kings" [the Last Saints] that are given into his hand (into the Anti-Christ's hand)
for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

The "Witnesses" [the Last Saints] which are first overcome, and then later killed,
by Satan for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]

The "Holy City" [the Last Saints] which the Anti-Christ treads under foot
for forty-two months or 3.5 "years" [Rev 11]

The "Kingdom" [the Last Saints] who are under the power of the Anti-Christ
for forty-two months or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13]

In order for satan to emerge from the pit in Revelation 9 means he has to be cast into it first. So once again, where in Revelation 12 can we find where he is cast into the pit initially?

Satan was "bound" at the cross (in the sense he could not stop all the
sheep being saved) and he is "loosened" after the "testimony" of the saints
is finished [Rev 11:7] and after the last saints are saved/sealed [Rev 7:1-3]
and after the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" [2 Thess 2:6-9]...
as Satan could not RULE while the Holy Spirit "restrains".

The A-Millennial Kingdom (where the "saints live and rule with Christ")
was the church age. While Satan was "bound". The Great Tribulation/Revelation
Beast begins when Satan is "loosened" for His "Little Season" which is shown
as 3.5 "times/days/years/watches of the night".

* Jesus called the Great Tribulation a "night" when no man could work because
all the saints were saved, the testimony was finished, and the Holy Spirit was
"taken out of the way" so Satan could RULE.

.

Amils have some explaining to do.

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