When is the big day?

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Jamdoc

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This is a good point, how is it that the day came on some unawares? How did it come as a thief in the night?

For example, lets consider the economy, US debt, situation with China, the protests and the election. It seems very reasonable right now to think none of these things will spiral out of control, we'll bounce back, etc. But imagine if the rapture takes place prior to the election. Companies losing key employees causing chaos, the US losing all those taxpayers who actually pay taxes, this could actually cause havoc in the election, now with He who restrains the evil stepping aside the protests could turn into full mayhem, and this would effect every country not just the US, perhaps pushing China into war.

My point is a projection that does not take into account the rapture would be radically changed in an instant. One day it sounds reasonable to say we'll weather the storm, the next day the ship is sinking and there is no one to answer your mayday call.

2 things.
First off, Jesus Himself gave the AoD as a prerequisite condition for His return, He did not give it as a specific date, so even knowing that sign, all you know, is that when that sign happens, Jesus could come at any moment after that, so you still don't know the day or the hour, all you know is that within the next few years, He will come after that event occurs.
Second point, because we're supposed to be watching for the signs, we're NOT supposed to be caught unaware. Jesus wouldn't give us signs if it was intended to catch us unaware. It'll catch most of the world unaware, but not people who are watching for His return. They'll see the signs, and anticipate, even if they don't know the exact date and hour.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-6
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
 
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Timtofly

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But you're wrong about that being before the 70th week. The 70th week had been going on for at least 3.5 years before the rapture, as the abomination of desolation takes place at the midpoint, and the return of our Lord and our gathering together to Him doesn't happen until after.
How can you say Christ comes for the harvest, but does not come for the harvest until after Satan's 42 months? Is the harvest first or the 42 months of Satan first? If Christ leaves with the harvest, why is the church still here for Satan's 42 months? Christ comes back to kill any one left after Satan's 42 months, not gather the harvest. The harvest is gathered in the first 6 trumpets and 7 thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet, then Satan's 42 months.
 
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Jamdoc

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How can you say Christ comes for the harvest, but does not come for the harvest until after Satan's 42 months? Is the harvest first or the 42 months of Satan first? If Christ leaves with the harvest, why is the church still here for Satan's 42 months? Christ comes back to kill any one left after Satan's 42 months, not gather the harvest. The harvest is gathered in the first 6 trumpets and 7 thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet, then Satan's 42 months.

It's a 7 year period, the first 3.5 years is staging, the antichrist unrevealed but gaining power. The midpoint the antichrist reveals himself at the abomination of desolation. Any time in that last 3.5 years Jesus can return, but given some of the lengths of the judgements that will happen after His return, I would say it's under 2 years after the abomination of desolation, because there's a 5 month judgement and a 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour judgement. No times given on the rest of the judgements, but they happen after Jesus comes in the clouds and the day of the Lord's wrath is declared in Revelation 6:17.
The 42 months, I'm not sure where exactly that begins or ends. He could start ruling before the AoD but nobody knows for sure he's the antichrist until the AoD, and the 42 month reign may end at the 2nd coming because at that point.. I'd imagine his power diminishes.. or it might last all the way until armageddon. I'm less sure on the 42 month reign. All I know for sure is the AoD happens at the midpoint of the 70th week, and that Jesus returns after that midpoint.
 
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Timtofly

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It's a 7 year period, the first 3.5 years is staging, the antichrist unrevealed but gaining power. The midpoint the antichrist reveals himself at the abomination of desolation. Any time in that last 3.5 years Jesus can return, but given some of the lengths of the judgements that will happen after His return, I would say it's under 2 years after the abomination of desolation, because there's a 5 month judgement and a 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour judgement. No times given on the rest of the judgements, but they happen after Jesus comes in the clouds and the day of the Lord's wrath is declared in Revelation 6:17.
The 42 months, I'm not sure where exactly that begins or ends. He could start ruling before the AoD but nobody knows for sure he's the antichrist until the AoD, and the 42 month reign may end at the 2nd coming because at that point.. I'd imagine his power diminishes.. or it might last all the way until armageddon. I'm less sure on the 42 month reign. All I know for sure is the AoD happens at the midpoint of the 70th week, and that Jesus returns after that midpoint.
Well this 7 years started last October, so now it is only a 6 year period. Satan's 42 months ends, then the vials, and then the battle of Armageddon. The harvest is now, not after Armageddon. Yes Christ returns at Armageddon. But the second coming is the 6th seal. Second Coming is not known, but happens when no one is expecting. The church is expectin the AC, but why? Well some are ready for the return now and still spreading the gospel. We all know the battle of Armageddon happens after the last few vials are poured out:

12 The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water dried up, in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War.
16 And they gathered the kings to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo.
17 The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice came out of the Temple from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

The same event as:

10 The people living in the Land rejoice over them, they celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets tormented them so.
11 But after the three-and-a-half days a breath of life from God entered them, they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 Then the two heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.
13 In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were awestruck and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Those 3.5 days are when the vials are poured out. The 7th vial they are given life and ascend to heaven during the earthquake. The next day is chapter 19 and the battle of Armageddon that the 6th vial set up. No harvest at all. But we know the 3.5 days of the 2 witnesses end Satan's 42 months, because the witnesses have 42 months, and both periods end with an earthquake that destroys Jerusalem. Not 2 different earthquakes, only one, and the next day Armageddon. That is the end of the tribulation. Count from Wednesday 3.5 days. The stone was moved from the tomb early Sunday morning. The 2 witnesses will rise early Sunday morning. The earthquake wakes all up. But Sunday is the battle of Armageddon. The vials cover Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Sunday is Armageddon. So we know when Christ returns for that battle. Why are we given the thief in the night church parenthetical? Because this last 42 months should not happen at all. Why did it happen? The apostate church is looking for the wrong return!!! Satan should get nothing, but the foolish virgins were 9 instead of 5 or just 1 foolish virgin. Only .5 wise virgins found, and like Lot, Satan had 42 months.

What if Revelation 14 was the end, and Satan never got 42 months? Chapters 15-19 would not happen at all along with 13. Could Abraham of today find any wise virgins, righteous people in the church?
 
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Jamdoc

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Well this 7 years started last October, so now it is only a 6 year period. Satan's 42 months ends, then the vials, and then the battle of Armageddon. The harvest is now, not after Armageddon. Yes Christ returns at Armageddon. But the second coming is the 6th seal. Second Coming is not known, but happens when no one is expecting. The church is expectin the AC, but why? Well some are ready for the return now and still spreading the gospel. We all know the battle of Armageddon happens after the last few vials are poured out:

12 The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water dried up, in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War.
16 And they gathered the kings to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo.
17 The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice came out of the Temple from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

The same event as:

10 The people living in the Land rejoice over them, they celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets tormented them so.
11 But after the three-and-a-half days a breath of life from God entered them, they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 Then the two heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.
13 In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were awestruck and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Those 3.5 days are when the vials are poured out. The 7th vial they are given life and ascend to heaven during the earthquake. The next day is chapter 19 and the battle of Armageddon that the 6th vial set up. No harvest at all. But we know the 3.5 days of the 2 witnesses end Satan's 42 months, because the witnesses have 42 months, and both periods end with an earthquake that destroys Jerusalem. Not 2 different earthquakes, only one, and the next day Armageddon. That is the end of the tribulation. Count from Wednesday 3.5 days. The stone was moved from the tomb early Sunday morning. The 2 witnesses will rise early Sunday morning. The earthquake wakes all up. But Sunday is the battle of Armageddon. The vials cover Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. Sunday is Armageddon. So we know when Christ returns for that battle. Why are we given the thief in the night church parenthetical? Because this last 42 months should not happen at all. Why did it happen? The apostate church is looking for the wrong return!!! Satan should get nothing, but the foolish virgins were 9 instead of 5 or just 1 foolish virgin. Only .5 wise virgins found, and like Lot, Satan had 42 months.

What if Revelation 14 was the end, and Satan never got 42 months? Chapters 15-19 would not happen at all along with 13. Could Abraham of today find any wise virgins, righteous people in the church?

There's 2 different events that people combine as "the 2nd coming" but they're both smaller parts of a larger event that is His second coming.
He comes well before Armageddon. He comes in the clouds first, then the wrath of God for probably a couple years, and then Armageddon. Just like Jesus' first coming wasn't just His birth, the second coming isn't just 1 singular moment, but is the period of time after Jesus first comes back. Parousia not only means arrival, it also means presence.
 
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Douggg

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How can you say Christ comes for the harvest, but does not come for the harvest until after Satan's 42 months? Is the harvest first or the 42 months of Satan first? If Christ leaves with the harvest, why is the church still here for Satan's 42 months? Christ comes back to kill any one left after Satan's 42 months, not gather the harvest. The harvest is gathered in the first 6 trumpets and 7 thunders. Then the 7th Trumpet, then Satan's 42 months.
What post and to whom are you addressing?
 
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iamlamad

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There's 2 different events that people combine as "the 2nd coming" but they're both smaller parts of a larger event that is His second coming.
He comes well before Armageddon. He comes in the clouds first, then the wrath of God for probably a couple years, and then Armageddon. Just like Jesus' first coming wasn't just His birth, the second coming isn't just 1 singular moment, but is the period of time after Jesus first comes back. Parousia not only means arrival, it also means presence.
Why are people so afraid to count? He came once. He will come the second time FOR His saints, pretrib. He will go back to heaven and spend the entire 7 years in heaven. Then He will come yet again WITH His saints. It will be His THIRD (3rd) coming.

By the way, Wrath starts, as in the Day of His wrath, THEN the 70th week starts - showing us the entire 70th week is God's wrath.
 
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iamlamad

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It's a 7 year period, the first 3.5 years is staging, the antichrist unrevealed but gaining power. The midpoint the antichrist reveals himself at the abomination of desolation. Any time in that last 3.5 years Jesus can return, but given some of the lengths of the judgements that will happen after His return, I would say it's under 2 years after the abomination of desolation, because there's a 5 month judgement and a 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour judgement. No times given on the rest of the judgements, but they happen after Jesus comes in the clouds and the day of the Lord's wrath is declared in Revelation 6:17.
The 42 months, I'm not sure where exactly that begins or ends. He could start ruling before the AoD but nobody knows for sure he's the antichrist until the AoD, and the 42 month reign may end at the 2nd coming because at that point.. I'd imagine his power diminishes.. or it might last all the way until armageddon. I'm less sure on the 42 month reign. All I know for sure is the AoD happens at the midpoint of the 70th week, and that Jesus returns after that midpoint.

God made this easy to follow, just read Revelation, front to back, and for the most part, that is the order in which these things will take place.

God "marked" (His word, not mine) the entire 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint or division point, and the 7th vial ends the week. Therefore, anyone that knows much about the book will notice that Jesus does not return at the end of the week as so many suppose.

With this in mind, the first 6 trumpet judgments come in the first half of the week, and the vials late in the second half.

The week ends at the 7th vial, but STUFF HAPPENS in chapters 17 & 18 and even in the first half of chapter 19, after the end of the week but before HE COMES.

the day of the Lord's wrath is declared in Revelation 6:17. Very good point.

the 42 month reign may end at the 2nd coming because at that point. Actually, that would be His 3rd coming. But because people scream when someone says "3rd coming" why not say the 42 months will end when Jesus comes to Armageddon? You are right though: the beast's 42 months ends when he is caught by Jesus.

and a 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour judgement. Sorry, but that verse is not saying this. What it is really saying is, these angels have an appointment set: a certain hour of a certain day, of a certain month, of a certain year. It may only take them one hour to do their mission.

happen after Jesus comes in the clouds and the day of the Lord's wrath is declared in Revelation 6:17. I agree: the momennt after the rapture, "time" changes to the Day of the Lord - as if the rapture is the trigger for the DAY. Good job on timing!

The 42 months, I'm not sure where exactly that begins or ends. Simple: the 42 months starts in 13:5. That would be just after Satan is cast down and has possessed the man of sin who has now turned "Beast." Some very little time after the midpoint. I don't think the war in heaven will take long
 
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iamlamad

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1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 this is the scripture that everyone bases the concept of the rapture on

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Paul again, equates the concept of the rapture, as happening when the Lord returns, and gathers us to Him, and tells us that the abomination of desolation has to happen first.
So what do we have in the Thessalonians epistles?
A falling away
The man of sin
The return of the Lord from Heaven
a trumpet
Gathering the saints to Him.
I don't think you have the real meaning of 2 thes. 2. First off, it has to agree with His first letter. Next, the KJV did a poor job of translating.

Here are some from before the KJV:
1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.


Of these, Coverdale did the best job, in my opinion: it is THE departing as in a very significant one.

Next, notice the message of verses 6-8: (ASV)
6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;

6: Stop and think: why would Paul write, "now you know?"
Some power is restraining or holding back the revealing, and "now" we know who. The purpose is so that the revealing of the man of sin is at the proper time.
7-8: There is a power restraining or holding back the revealing, but at the proper time, that power will be "take out of the way."

Notice the parallelism: restraining - then revealing - first in verse 6, then in 7-8.
Now read verse 3: (Coverdale)
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, [disclosed; revealed] even the sonne of perdicion.

Notice, SAME parallelism: Restraining has to be first; then the man pf sin be revealed.
Notice the last part of 3 as in 3b in different translationss:

Amp: the man of lawlessness is revealed
CSB: the man of lawlessness is revealed
CEB: the person who is lawless is revealed
CJB: the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed
DARBY: the man of sin have been revealed

Do you get the picture? It is obvious in 3b the man of sin IS (or has been) revealed. Yet, from verses 6-8, we know he CANNOT be until the power holding back the revealing has been "taken out of the way."

What was Paul's THEME for this passage? It was "the gathering" or the rapture. Therefore, it makes sense that we SEE the rapture somewhere here.

Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the "apostasia:" departing [the rapture of the church] have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

I included the Greek word, Apostasia. It is a compound Greek word, "apo" and "stasia." For "Apo" here is what Strong's tells us:

The question is, CAN this word mean something else? It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."

Here is what STrong's says about apo:

"of separation; of local separation,

after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

of separation of a part from the whole
...where of a whole some part is taken

of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

of a state of separation, that is of distance

physical, of distance of place"


At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.

Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.

The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.

Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.

Sorry, my time is up.
Added later: it is not a falling away (from what Paul did not say) but rather a catching away as in the one restraining being "taken out of the way."

So the departing (rapture) must come first, then the man of sin will be revealed - and then all can know, the day of the Lord has come, and they are IN IT.

The truth is, from the day of Pentecost, the church has grown, and never stopped growing. Sure, some fall away, but when one falls away, two come in.
 
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iamlamad

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It is true. The 70th week is "marked" by 7's. When you get to the 7th seal, the 70th week is officially starting. When you get to the 7th trumpet, you will know that the man of sin just entered the temple and committed the abomination. When you get to the 7th vial, just know that the week has ended. Plain and simple.
 
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ZNP

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It is true. The 70th week is "marked" by 7's. When you get to the 7th seal, the 70th week is officially starting. When you get to the 7th trumpet, you will know that the man of sin just entered the temple and committed the abomination. When you get to the 7th vial, just know that the week has ended. Plain and simple.
Plain and simple, too bad we didn't have you expounding the Bible 2,000 years ago, could have saved a lot of confusion.

What about the Star of David, where does that fit in? I hear it will appear October 3rd, 2020 at 2am.
 
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Timtofly

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Why are people so afraid to count? He came once. He will come the second time FOR His saints, pretrib. He will go back to heaven and spend the entire 7 years in heaven. Then He will come yet again WITH His saints. It will be His THIRD (3rd) coming.

By the way, Wrath starts, as in the Day of His wrath, THEN the 70th week starts - showing us the entire 70th week is God's wrath.
There is no 7 year period. And this period is the harvest. Study chapter 7 and 14, and it is not an airplane landing and taking off, because the airplane lands and sits while The Lamb gathers the harvest. This period is all about the harvest being gathered.

Over the past 100 years the church has painted this AC holocaust happening. Not a single verse in Revelation addresses this AC scenario. It only exist as figurative imagination in the minds of billions.

The Gospels and Jesus taught about the final harvest. That is how we should be viewing this period. Jesus says for the elect's sake, this time will be shortened. John says Satan may get 42 months, making it even shorter. There is no rigid 7 years. 1 year is gone already. April 2023 will be the start of Satan's 42 months, which is 3.5 years. That is the midpoint. We have 2.5 years left of Christ on earth gathering the harvest. And that time is getting shorter, because the harvest does not start until the 6th seal is opened.

There was a 10.5 year period before 2030. But the first 5 months between Oct. 2019 and April of this year went past without a "stir". It was not until April that this covid army seemed to attack the world within weeks. It was already at work since Oct.

When the 6th seal is opened the church will be removed. This influence of the Spirit at work, will come to an end. But the 7th Trumpet is the final end of the age and the harvest is done as well. Then Satan may get 42 months, which is past the deadline. That is why the mark appears. Those who want to keep working and living in those 42 months are marked and their destination is the lake of fire, because they proudly chose Satan over God.

All theology comes as a backlash or emotional denial of biblical Scripture. The millennium of Revelation 20, produces a-mill. The false idea of AC comes from not knowing when the rapture happens. Then the wrong placement of the Second Coming, because of Revelation 16:15. There is only one earthquake, not 3 returns.

Think of it as a pre-harvest rapture. The church is not the point of the harvest. That is why a separate group of 144K Jewish male virgins are chosen for the harvest. The original 12 disciples were part of the OT, but also the start of the church. The 144k are sealed during the seals of the church, but will gather the millennium harvest, and be with Christ the whole time. They are the firstfruits of the Millennium.
 
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nolidad

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Some of the Jews - the ones who make up Rabbinic Judaism. In contrast to Karaite Judaism. I think them of Karaite Judaism don't believe in the oral law.

A Jewish source that says the New Covenant is a Renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant... the MessiahTruth discussion site. Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums

I think you can ask any Orthodox (Judaism) rabbi as well.

And you need to realize that Jesus roundly condemned what was the oral law which was codified in the Gemera, The tanakh and ultimately the Mishnah

It was these laws that Jesus said you make void the law of God by your traditions! So yuou should not trust any handed down oral tradition to tell you that a new covenant antichrist makes will be a renewal of teh 613 Law MOsaic Covenant.
 
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go to this link...

Hakhel - Wikipedia

"The term Hakhel (Hebrew הקהל) refers to a biblical commandment of assembling all Jewish men, women and children, as well as "strangers" to assemble and hear the reading of the Torah by the king of Israel once every seven years"

And..........?

This command has nothing to do with the antichrist entering into a covenant with Israel for 7 years.

And Israel has failed to do that for centuries and millenia as SCripture shows.
 
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Douggg

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And you need to realize that Jesus roundly condemned what was the oral law which was codified in the Gemera, The tanakh and ultimately the Mishnah

It was these laws that Jesus said you make void the law of God by your traditions! So yuou should not trust any handed down oral tradition to tell you that a new covenant antichrist makes will be a renewal of teh 613 Law MOsaic Covenant.
I was not and am not defending the oral law. I am just reporting to you what the Jews believe and how they will be fooled into thinking the Antichrist is the messiah.
 
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nolidad

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I was not and am not defending the oral law. I am just reporting to you what the Jews believe and how they will be fooled into thinking the Antichrist is the messiah.

And where did you get these facts to report?

REading of the law? reading of the Mishnah (the codified oral law), these comprise the covenant Antichrist will make? Where do you get this "knowledge"?
 
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Douggg

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And..........?

This command has nothing to do with the antichrist entering into a covenant with Israel for 7 years.

And Israel has failed to do that for centuries and millenia as SCripture shows.
Daniel 9 doesn't say that the Antichrist "enters into a covenant with Israel for 7 years". Here is what it says...

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The for 7 years is in the bible, as an instruction from Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Israel cannot do the instruction because the Muslims control the Temple Mount. And Israel does not have a king. Those factors are going to change post Gog/Magog.
 
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Douggg

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And where did you get these facts to report?

REading of the law? reading of the Mishnah (the codified oral law), these comprise the covenant Antichrist will make? Where do you get this "knowledge"?
I did not say the reading of the oral law. A lot of my information I get from the Messiah Truth countermissionary site, which I have been discussing with them since 2004. I check what they say with the passages they quote from the bible. You can also watch some Tovia Singer videos on You Tube.
 
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