Grapes in the Early Spring
- Thread starter HARK!
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While there are some health benefits, there are also health issues that will result, too.
So it's both good and bad. The bad in my opinion far outweighs any good, though.
Proof that alcohol is bad for you in moderate use? Just Google it. It takes mere seconds to find out the info. You can spend all day reading about it.
You said:
Yes, I am aware of how people can be allergic to certain foods and can be extremely dangerous for them. That is not the same thing as alcohol. Alcohol even in moderate use leads to health problems and lessons one's life span. Your body has to fight off it's bad effects.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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The problem is that it is a violation of God's command to be sober minded.
Others who do have a problem can stumble by your drinking even on very rare occasions.
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Isilwen
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The one wine cooler I drink, does nothing to me. I am still sober minded. It literally doesn't affect me at all. It's one wine cooler about every six months. If I drink a wine cooler more than twice a year, it was an odd year.
Also, those I socially drink with aren't stumbling as they don't seek to get drink either.
Do you not realize that one can drink and not get drink or even buzzed? That one can drink and not cause someone to stumble? Also, if there is someone that cannot handle one drink, we don't drink alcohol.
The Bible is against drunkenness, not against drinking at all.
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Isilwen
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Now if you'll excuse me, I have a hockey game to win on my Xbox! Since my Philadelphia Flyers couldn't get to the Stanley Cup in real life, I am doing all I can to get them there in my video game.
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a-lily-of-peace
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What you quoted from Paul’s letter to the Romans is directly before he tells them it’s better not to eat flesh or drink wine that offends your brother or makes them stumble. That isn’t a complete ban on flesh and wine but a call to consideration and conscientiousness.
I believe in light of this that if I were to drink wine in front of you, and that were to cause you to accuse me of being a person who “does not care to obey the New Covenant, then by all means, they can do as they please and serve themselves instead of their Lord” since I believe you’re wrong about that then I would be causing you to stumble into the sin of false accusation and reviling others because I drank something which offended your conscience.
That’s a challenging lesson for me but I believe it’s the right one. It’s turning the other cheek and desiring the good of others, genuinely caring for even those I disagree with on the things which have never been explicitly said. And I do want the best.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(1 Corinthians 13:12-13, KJV)
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Wow. So researching the internet cannot be trusted? Granted, I am not saying everything on the internet is true, but to simply doubt entirely internet searches is pretty silly - IMO. But you are free to believe as you wish. I think the problem started when Facebook and Twitter came along. A lot of disinformation was pushed on those platforms, and so folks started to distrust everything.
The way to check to see if something is true or false even in researching is to look at both sides of the debate on the internet. What side has more evidence and lines up better with the Scriptures? Leave your biases at home and just follow the facts (Whether you like those facts or not). Most like alcoholic beverages, and so they have a bias going in. I think that is what is swaying folks towards defending alcohol and it has nothing to do with the facts or the truth. Drinking alcohol is selfish in my view and it primarily leads to destruction, harm, and hurt of others and oneself. The kingdom of God is about one being unselfish and it is about loving God and loving others (even with the sacrifice of oneself).
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- Jul 22, 2014
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I used to believe Romans 14 dealt with strong alcoholic wine because the word “wine” is in there, but the context is dealing with wine as the Israelite knew it. This was a wine that was diluted with several parts of water and it was not like the wines of our day. While one has a liberty to drink Israelite wine (that is seriously watered down), I believe that the higher calling is to abstain from all forms of wine (except unfermented grape juice); Especially when we are commanded to be sober minded (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8 KJV). It takes time for believers to mature, and to answer the higher calling. But I believe that Christians are to pick up their cross daily and deny themselves more and more. Being a Christian is not about catering to our indulgences (even if we do have certain liberties).
You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is good for you. You say, “I am allowed to do anything”—but not everything is beneficial. (1 Corinthians 10:23) (NLT).
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- Jul 22, 2014
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I used to be the same way (When I was living a backslidden life sometime after accepting Jesus as my Savior). But after I rededicated my life to following Jesus, and after further study, and by life experience, I have come to learn that the higher calling is to abstain entirely because of what alcohol represents. Alcohol has destroyed countless lives, and people boast in drinking and it makes one chummy with the guys at work. It makes one feel cool.
You said:
I am assuming you meant drunk, and not drink with the second mention of the word, drink.
As for socially drinking with others who do not seek to get drunk:
Are they believers or unbelievers?
In either case, I do not see any good coming out of it in regards to being a good witness for Jesus Christ and the good things of His kingdom.
You said:
I believe a Christian has a liberty to drink Israelite wine (Which is seriously diluted with several parts of water) based on Romans 14. But this would not be the alcoholic beverages of our day because they are higher in alcoholic content. We are told not to drink or do anything that makes our brother to stumble. Our public declaration of such a thing could cause a brother to stumble.
I used to get loopy on drinking one White Russian. So I am a lightweight. This is the problem with alcohol. How does one gauge the safe level of alcohol if they are new to alcohol and they do not have internet access? Do they just give into the peer pressure and drink that 151 because they have a liberty in Christ?
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Isilwen
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So, if we have liberty in Christ as you say, then it is up to the individual Christian to decide for themselves what or how much they drink? Especially since the Bible is against drunkenness and not an all out ban on alcohol.
There is a a verse in the Bible that I am embracing more and more for myself and for all other Christians.
Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
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Mr. M
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You do realize that this is a good thing, and the basis for prolonged immunity?
Can the human body become immune to poison?
Is a poison a poison if a person has developed immunity?
What is the medical science here?
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- Jul 22, 2014
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No. It is not up to them to decide how much to drink. The Bible makes it clear that we are not to get drunk, and wines back then were like your wine cooler in regards to alcoholic content. That does not mean God does not want us to answer the higher calling and to abstain altogether. We are commanded to be sober minded. The moment we drink alcohol, we are less sober minded then we were before. God calls us to obey. I believe alcohol is one of things that we will eventually put out of our lives as we mature in Christ.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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This kind of thinking is not factual. Try researching the bad effects of the moderate use of alcohol.
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Mr. M
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Aren't you supposed to be leading people TO Christ, and repentance? To receiving the promise of the
Holy Spirit, of which wine is but a carnal representation?
Isn't teaching people to abide in the Holy Spirit leading them away from alcohol, and all things carnal?
Isn't that the spiritual?
The Truth is in the signature.
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So the Bible commands me to be sober minded.
We are also told not to defile our temple, too.
We have knowledge today that we did not have back then.
If we know that alcohol defiles us and we drink anyways, then we are drinking even when our conscience condemns us (Which is not good). To drink knowing that alcohol destroys your body is not good. Maybe back in the day, you could have drank Israelite wine because they did not know about the destructive nature of alcohol, but today we know what it can do to us. This is why maturity through knowledge and experience will change a believer's view on alcohol if they are truly interested in picking up their cross and denying themselves to follow Jesus.
We are also told not to defile our temple, too.
We have knowledge today that we did not have back then.
If we know that alcohol defiles us and we drink anyways, then we are drinking even when our conscience condemns us (Which is not good). To drink knowing that alcohol destroys your body is not good. Maybe back in the day, you could have drank Israelite wine because they did not know about the destructive nature of alcohol, but today we know what it can do to us. This is why maturity through knowledge and experience will change a believer's view on alcohol if they are truly interested in picking up their cross and denying themselves to follow Jesus.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Yes, I am doing that. I told people to follow Jesus in this thread.
In fact, I just said so in my previous post before I read your post.
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Mr. M
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With a realistic definition of moderation, which meets a Biblical standard, that research has already been presented. You are defining alcohol as a poison. My questions were directed beyond alcohol to poisons
in general. What is the difference between 'tolerance' and 'immunity'? Does a person who drinks a glass of wine or wine cooler as noted above, experience the same effects as say a teenager trying wine for the first time? How is it that you are even defining sober minded for everyone? If someone is too overly concerned with the things of this world to hear from the Spirit, are they sober minded?
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I remember when my wife (my fiancé at the time), asked me to stop drinking alcohol because her Uncle destroyed his life with alcohol. We went on a date at a fancy Italian restaurant and she did not drink before meeting me. Afterwards (About a week later): She said she did not like the way the wine with the meal made her feel out of control, and it reminded her of her Uncle. When she asked me to stop (over the phone), I was initially upset and angry. Then I stopped myself and said to myself, “What is more important?” The girl or the drink that you barely touch every year?” I obviously answered, “the girl.” She was more important to me than some beverage.
But the thing is that why was I mad? It's because there is controlling spirit behind alcohol. It's why they are called “spirits.” The enemy is seeking to destroy us and to not be sober minded. He does not want us to think clearly. Alcohol muddles your thinking and makes you to lose control. God wants us to take control in following Him.
But the thing is that why was I mad? It's because there is controlling spirit behind alcohol. It's why they are called “spirits.” The enemy is seeking to destroy us and to not be sober minded. He does not want us to think clearly. Alcohol muddles your thinking and makes you to lose control. God wants us to take control in following Him.
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