When is the big day?

parousia70 · Sep 28, 2020

ZNP said:
I am glad you asked this because there is something that has always bothered me for many years now. When I was a kid I played football and one of the favorite cheers of our cheerleaders was "It's all over now!" But here is the thing, they never did that cheer when the game really was all over! They would do it in the fourth quarter, we would have a comfortable lead, and they would start. But then, a few minutes later when it really was all over they wouldn't say anything?! What is with that? I figured they were girls, they didn't really understand the game, but you would think someone would explain to them when the game truly was "all over".

Sooo.... as it relates to my question, this means... what?

Are the Apostolic admonitions of soon coming, nearness, to be taken seriously?

Should the 1st century Christians have taken their words seriously?

If You were a 1st century Christian and you received a hand written letter from John, addressed to you, that said "you be ready, as these things must shortly take place for the time is near"... would you have merely said...nahhh... I don't think so? I think you, John, are not correct about that, but I expect someone will come along in about 2000 years and say the same thing who will be right??

Really?

ZNP · Sep 28, 2020

parousia70 said:
Sooo.... as it relates to my question, this means... what?

Are the Apostolic admonitions of soon coming, nearness, to be taken seriously?

Should the 1st century Christians have taken their words seriously?

If You were a 1st century Christian and you received a hand written letter from John, addressed to you, that said "you be ready, as these things must shortly take place for the time is near"... would you have merely said...nahhh... I don't think so? I think you, John, are not correct about that, but I expect someone will come along in about 2000 years and say the same thing who will be right??

Really?

I responded to that in post #56

Douggg · Sep 29, 2020

nolidad said:
What you are doing is promoting a hypothesis as nearly doctrine! That is dangerous.

To any Jewish reader of the Deut. passage- they would tell you it is all 613 laws God gave to Moses! Isrel already follows the ten (as best as a human can) so that seems superflous!

Well do you really think one needs to "correct" the word of God? If God inteneded it to be a renewal of a covenant, I am more than convinced He would have inspired Daniel to say and "He" shall renew a covenant for one 7.

The Jews (Judaism) believe that one function of the messiah is to teach them how to keep the written law by Moses. The Jews already claim that Moses verbally gave some instructions on how to keep the written law - which Moses (claimed) verbal instructions was passed down generation to generation as the oral law.

On the other issue, the claim that Jeremiah 31, the new covenant which we know to be the covenant in Christ, the Jews (Judaism) claim means renewal of the existing Mt. Sinai covenant. I am just reporting what they believe. I am not saying they are right. They are wrong of course.

nolidad · Sep 29, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Sheba and Dedan are like, Saudi Arabia and UAE, so muslim neighbors that'd be signing defensive pacts with Israel but then not fulfilling them in Israel's need.

Well I don't know of defensive pacts. I do not think even America has a defensive pact with Israel that would compel us to come to their defense with our military.

nolidad · Sep 29, 2020

Douggg said:
The Jews (Judaism) believe that one function of the messiah is to teach them how to keep the written law by Moses. The Jews already claim that Moses verbally gave some instructions on how to keep the written law - which Moses (claimed) verbal instructions was passed down generation to generation as the oral law.

On the other issue, the claim that Jeremiah 31, the new covenant which we know to be the covenant in Christ, the Jews (Judaism) claim means renewal of the existing Mt. Sinai covenant. I am just reporting what they believe. I am not saying they are right. They are wrong of course.

Well you should correct your statement.

It was only som eJews who claimed MOses handed down an unwritten "oral law".

Just like some inChristendom said there was and is a body of law called the oral tradition, that was not written down.

And please cite Jewish sources that say the New Covenant is a RENEWAL of the Old Covenant. Show the Jewish sources that say that.

Are they mainstreeam or just a real fringe movement?

ZNP · Sep 29, 2020

Douggg said:
The Jews (Judaism) believe that one function of the messiah is to teach them how to keep the written law by Moses.

We can start with the calendar. It is obvious they have not done that. There are supposed to be 364 days a year but if you compare one Passover to the next it is clear there are not 364 days. They have allowed the Gentiles to dictate their calendar to them.

Timtofly · Sep 29, 2020

ZNP said:
We can start with the calendar. It is obvious they have not done that. There are supposed to be 364 days a year but if you compare one Passover to the next it is clear there are not 364 days. They have allowed the Gentiles to dictate their calendar to them.

It is not humans that dictate the calender. If the Hebrews did not adjust their own calendar, the fall feast would end up in the spring, and the spring feast in the fall. All humans have to add in a day or two every few years, by the dictates of nature itself.

iamlamad · Sep 29, 2020

ZNP said:
I put this in my blog. I was asked this question by a believer and I felt it was important to make sure everyone had this information.

One thing I noticed: you included Dan. 11 verses that really pertain to Antiochus and not to the end.

Then you pointed to Rev. 4:11 as the rapture, when even a beginning reader knows that was JOHN caught up, around 95 AD to be shown things in the future (so we would have this book to read.)

Next, "after this" or "after these things" does NOT mean "after the church age." It is a transitional phrase John used six times in Revelation, to transition from one part of the vision to another as God changed directions.

For timing on the rapture, read 1 Thes. chapter 5: Paul tells us the start of the Day of the Lord will follow hard after the rapture - no time between. It will be church age - Day of the Lord. In Revelation, the start of the DAY is not found in chapter 4.

I will commend you for the effort. It took time.

ZNP · Sep 29, 2020

Timtofly said:
It is not humans that dictate the calender. If the Hebrews did not adjust their own calendar, the fall feast would end up in the spring, and the spring feast in the fall. All humans have to add in a day or two every few years, by the dictates of nature itself.

No, the calendar clearly tells them how to adjust it, tells them what the stars look like on specific days which means it is linked to the year, and instead of a leap year every four years they have a sabbath week added every so often. It is a lunar calendar tied to a solar calendar. But they are now using a corrupted calendar since the time of the Maccabees, and it is easy to prove. Passover should never be before the Spring equinox and Yom Teruah should never be before the Fall equinox. There should be 364 days from one Passover to the next except every time they do an extra week.

ZNP · Sep 29, 2020

iamlamad said:
One thing I noticed: you included Dan. 11 verses that really pertain to Antiochus and not to the end.

Many understand Antiochus as prefiguring Antichrist.

iamlamad said:
Then you pointed to Rev. 4:11 as the rapture, when even a beginning reader knows that was JOHN caught up, around 95 AD to be shown things in the future (so we would have this book to read.)

Yes, but he says "after these things" referring to what he covered in chapters 1-3 which are the churches. Revelation does not mention the church again until chapter 19. I think it mentions it 21 times in the first three chapters. Revelation clearly says that he is showing you "things which are to come". I am interpreting that as something that will come. If you look at my blog I tie this chapter into Psalms, Isaiah and a number of other chapters dealing with the Coronation and wedding of the Messiah.

iamlamad said:
Next, "after this" or "after these things" does NOT mean "after the church age." It is a transitional phrase John used six times in Revelation, to transition from one part of the vision to another as God changed directions.

That is one interpretation.

iamlamad said:
For timing on the rapture, read 1 Thes. chapter 5: Paul tells us the start of the Day of the Lord will follow hard after the rapture - no time between. It will be church age - Day of the Lord. In Revelation, the start of the DAY is not found in chapter 4.

I will commend you for the effort. It took time.

I also agree. What I don't agree with is "Pre trib". Here is the reason I feel the term Pre trib is confusing even though I agree that the rapture precedes the 7 year tribulation.

According to the Jewish calendar there are 10 days from Yom Teruah (the wedding and coronation) to Yom Kippur (the final judgement). These ten days are referred to as "Jacob's trouble" and are equated with the tribulation. But most people understand the tribulation to be 7 years not 10.

During Jacob's trouble the books are open and there are three groups. The first group are those who are the "good and faithful" servants. I believe this judgement takes place over the course of the three years from September 23, 2017 when the great heavenly sign of the woman appeared to today. Then the rapture will take place on Yom Kippur which during a Jubilee year is also Yom Teruah. Which is beautiful because the rapture is a judgement, it rewards those who are raptured and also rebukes those who aren't. I consider this judgement to be the Bema judgement. Then there are 7 years left from this Yom Kippur to the next, the 7 years considered the tribulation. Why does Daniel only refer to 7 and not 10? Because the church age ends with the rapture and we start the 70th week to complete the revelation concerning Jerusalem and the Jews. During this seven years there are still two more groups, those that are given to Satan and those in the grey area. Saints who repent during this time can be raptured in the mid point of these seven years. So in reality the two raptures are both "mid trib" if you consider the ten days of Jacob's trouble to be the tribulation.

Jamdoc · Sep 29, 2020

iamlamad said:
One thing I noticed: you included Dan. 11 verses that really pertain to Antiochus and not to the end.

Then you pointed to Rev. 4:11 as the rapture, when even a beginning reader knows that was JOHN caught up, around 95 AD to be shown things in the future (so we would have this book to read.)

Next, "after this" or "after these things" does NOT mean "after the church age." It is a transitional phrase John used six times in Revelation, to transition from one part of the vision to another as God changed directions.

For timing on the rapture, read 1 Thes. chapter 5: Paul tells us the start of the Day of the Lord will follow hard after the rapture - no time between. It will be church age - Day of the Lord. In Revelation, the start of the DAY is not found in chapter 4.

I will commend you for the effort. It took time.

That's the problem with eisegesis, instead of reading the bible as it's written you have a preconceived idea that you try to find within scripture and hunt it down till you find a verse out of context that might fit.
They'll use that even though the context of that verse is that John was to come up so that he could witness events and write them down for future generations that would need to know these things. They'll use Revelation 3:10 and attribute themselves to being the church of Philadelphia the one church out of the 7 that gets the best outcome, of course seeing themselves as having nothing that Jesus would criticize about their walk so they MUST get the best outcome.. which says to me there's a pride issue right off the bat, when let's face it most modern Christians would be more like the Laodiceans, or maybe the Pergamos church. Even if they truly had nothing in their lives that Jesus would rebuke them for, neither did the church of Smyrna, and they got martyred.

Exegesis shows the first mention of anything like the rapture in the new testament as being in the Olivet discourse, which says that it happens after the tribulations (Matthew 24:29-31), which with hermeneutics, you can see it's very much like the rapture defining passages in 1 Thessalonians 4, which comparing with 2 Thessalonians 2 you see that Paul is very much equating the rapture with the second coming as happening at the same time, the rapture just being the first thing that happens in the second coming.... and Paul says that won't happen until the abomination of desolation, because Paul is agreeing with Jesus in the Olivet discourse, and Jesus gave the abomination of desolation as happening before His coming.

Of course, this is where we'll likely disagree because most people see the second coming as happening in Revelation 19, which if you compare scripture to scripture.. Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 don't match at all. Revelation 19 doesn't match Joel 2, or a lot of other "Day of the Lord" prophetic scripture either. I see it in Revelation 6:12-17. Same cosmological signs, and all the tribes of the earth mourn and hide because they know that the day of the Lord is actually happening right then and there. Which another thing post trib, and amillennialists struggle with, is that they think "Day of the Lord" is literal and means only a single 24 hour day.... but.. Revelation 9 gives the 5th trumpet as lasting 5 months, and the 6th trumpet may last over a year. (I could maybe see that the army was "prepared" for a year, but what's more likely, that this army takes a year to wipe out 1/3 of humanity, or that they were prepared for a year and wipe out 1/3 of humanity in 1 24 hour day?). So how does Jesus' second coming both have an event where He comes in the clouds sitting on a throne, and another event where He comes down riding a white horse? Well, just like the first coming of Jesus wasn't entirely contained within His birth in a manger, but included all the events from His birth until He ascended to heaven, including His ministry, His death, and His resurrection... His second coming includes all events from His coming in the clouds... into eternity.

iamlamad · Sep 29, 2020

Jamdoc said:
...

Exegesis shows the first mention of anything like the rapture in the new testament as being in the Olivet discourse, which says that it happens after the tribulations (Matthew 24:29-31), which with hermeneutics, you can see it's very much like the rapture defining passages in 1 Thessalonians 4, which comparing with 2 Thessalonians 2 you see that Paul is very much equating the rapture with the second coming as happening at the same time, the rapture just being the first thing that happens in the second coming.... and Paul says that won't happen until the abomination of desolation, because Paul is agreeing with Jesus in the Olivet discourse, and Jesus gave the abomination of desolation as happening before His coming.
/QUOTE]
Actually, 1 Thes. Epistle was one of the first letters Paul wrote, before any of the gospels were written. It is then the first part of the New Testament written down.
I will agree, at first glance, may appear "like" the rapture. It is a "gathering" and Paul's called His rapture the "gathering." This is perhaps the only similarity one can find comparing the two. Paul shows us that his gathering is before any part of wrath is poured out. He mentioned the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse. From 1 Thes. it seems the rapture will be the trigger for the "Day off the Lord: it will be the age of grace, or the church age, then a moment later, the Day of the Lord. In Revelation we find the start of the DAY at the 6th seal or the 7th.

Then right on schedule, John saw the raptured church in heaven, just after the 6th seal - as the great crowd, too large to number.

Next, when one studies the Matthew 24 gathering, it gathers from heaven, not earth. It cannot be Paul's rapture.

Finally, the raptured church is seen in heaven before any part of the 70th week - which will begin with the 7th seal and first trumpet. So again, it cannot be the same gathering as one after the trib' of those days.

Douggg · Sep 29, 2020

nolidad said:
Well you should correct your statement.

It was only som eJews who claimed MOses handed down an unwritten "oral law".

Just like some inChristendom said there was and is a body of law called the oral tradition, that was not written down.

And please cite Jewish sources that say the New Covenant is a RENEWAL of the Old Covenant. Show the Jewish sources that say that.

Are they mainstream or just a real fringe movement?

Some of the Jews - the ones who make up Rabbinic Judaism. In contrast to Karaite Judaism. I think them of Karaite Judaism don't believe in the oral law.

A Jewish source that says the New Covenant is a Renewal of the Mt. Sinai covenant... the MessiahTruth discussion site. Virtual Yeshiva Discussion Forums

I think you can ask any Orthodox (Judaism) rabbi as well.

iamlamad · Sep 29, 2020

ZNP said:
Many understand Antiochus as prefiguring Antichrist.

Yes, but he says "after these things" referring to what he covered in chapters 1-3 which are the churches. Revelation does not mention the church again until chapter 19. I think it mentions it 21 times in the first three chapters. Revelation clearly says that he is showing you "things which are to come". I am interpreting that as something that will come. If you look at my blog I tie this chapter into Psalms, Isaiah and a number of other chapters dealing with the Coronation and wedding of the Messiah.

That is one interpretation.

I also agree. What I don't agree with is "Pre trib". Here is the reason I feel the term Pre trib is confusing even though I agree that the rapture precedes the 7 year tribulation.

According to the Jewish calendar there are 10 days from Yom Teruah (the wedding and coronation) to Yom Kippur (the final judgement). These ten days are referred to as "Jacob's trouble" and are equated with the tribulation. But most people understand the tribulation to be 7 years not 10.

During Jacob's trouble the books are open and there are three groups. The first group are those who are the "good and faithful" servants. I believe this judgement takes place over the course of the three years from September 23, 2017 when the great heavenly sign of the woman appeared to today. Then the rapture will take place on Yom Kippur which during a Jubilee year is also Yom Teruah. Which is beautiful because the rapture is a judgement, it rewards those who are raptured and also rebukes those who aren't. I consider this judgement to be the Bema judgement. Then there are 7 years left from this Yom Kippur to the next, the 7 years considered the tribulation. Why does Daniel only refer to 7 and not 10? Because the church age ends with the rapture and we start the 70th week to complete the revelation concerning Jerusalem and the Jews. During this seven years there are still two more groups, those that are given to Satan and those in the grey area. Saints who repent during this time can be raptured in the mid point of these seven years. So in reality the two raptures are both "mid trib" if you consider the ten days of Jacob's trouble to be the tribulation.

Yes, but he says "after these things" referring to what he covered in chapters 1-3 which are the churches.
He says something very similar 6 times in total in Revelation. When one gets the whole picture, it is easy to see it is just a transitional phrase with no special meaning i one case out of 6. NOT "after the churches" but in reality after God stopped dictating what john was the write to the churches.

Revelation does not mention the church again until chapter 19. Just because "church" as a word is not mentioned does not in any way mean the church is gone. In fact, it is the church, raptured and in heaven, shown in chapter 7 as the crowd too large to number.

But even before that, if we follow John's chronology, chapter 5 shows Jesus ascending and sending the HOly Spirit down (Yes, a glimpse of the past) and Jesus getting the book, Circa 32 AD. The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel. (So the church is very much still in the picture.)

Revelation clearly says that he is showing you "things which are to come". Many people read that phrase wrong: then add an "only" as if God could ONLY show John future events. There is no "only" and God DID included some history for John. John did see MANY events that are future even to us today.

there are 10 days And this pertains to the timing of the rapture?

I agree that the rapture precedes the 7 year tribulation. Where have you been? That is the very difinition of "pretrib." Rapture before tribulation. But it SHOULD be "rapture before 70th week."

These ten days are referred to as "Jacob's trouble" and are equated with the tribulation. But most people understand the tribulation to be 7 years not 10.
"Jacob's Trouble" is 7 years because Jacob had to work an EXTRA 7 years for the woman he loved.

I believe this judgement takes place over the course of the three years from September 23, 2017 MISTAKE ONE: USING A DATE!

Obviously, this post is history; why are we even looking at it?

I think you don't even know where "the trib" is in Revelation, or where the rapture is to compare.

ZNP · Sep 29, 2020

So I have just discovered something quite interesting from this site

TorahCalendar.com

If you put October 16th, 2020 into the calendar (the day of the super new moon) it is also Shabbat Shuvah. This is known as the Sabbath of return. It falls 3 days before Yom Kippur, which they have as October 19th.

iamlamad · Sep 29, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Most Christians do not watch, because they believe in the doctrine of imminency and pretrib rapture. They think watching for the signs is pointless because they're going to be raptured out before they suffer any tribulation anyway, so what's the point, why watch for the antichrist? In their minds they'll be gone before he does anything. You stop watching if you think it can happen suddenly with no warning, your focus is on being ready at all times because it can happen when least expected. Which it's good to be ready, Jesus tells us to be ready. But He also tells us to watch, and gave us signs. So the doctrine of imminency destroys any need to watch.

I disagree. I think most pretribbers are looking for signs of the times. What we are NOT looking for is the AoD or anything else that will come inside the 70th week.

I see a problem with people NOT expecting Christ could come TONIGHT. They may be expecting to see the Antichrist Beast first. This could cause them much harm.

heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

ASV so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

AMPC Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.

Is it possible to believe in one's heart that they will see the Antichrist Beast first,. to also be eagerly waiting for Jesus - as if He might come tonight?

Jamdoc · Sep 29, 2020

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 this is the scripture that everyone bases the concept of the rapture on

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The rapture itself is the coming of the Lord.
and for clarity, Paul had to write a second letter to the Thessalonians, because they weren't clear on how this was going to work out. Basically you had pretribbers and post tribbers and preterists claiming it'd already happened etc, and Paul had to explain it to them.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul again, equates the concept of the rapture, as happening when the Lord returns, and gathers us to Him, and tells us that the abomination of desolation has to happen first.
So what do we have in the Thessalonians epistles?
A falling away
The man of sin
The return of the Lord from Heaven
a trumpet
Gathering the saints to Him.

Now Matthew 24, let's break this down
there's a falling away in Matthew 24:10-12

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

then the man of sin revealed in Matthew 24:15

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

then the return of the Lord from Heaven, in the clouds in Matthew 24:30

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

and finally the trumpet and the gathering of saints to Him in Matthew 24:31

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the same event, and it is also depicted in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal, and another view of it is depicted in Revelation 14:14-20. Note that the first angel that harvests, does not put that harvest in the winepress of God's wrath, they're just harvested.. After they're harvested, there's another harvest of what remains.. and these are put into the winepress of God's wrath. You're right that we see the result of the rapture in Revelation 7. But you're wrong about that being before the 70th week. The 70th week had been going on for at least 3.5 years before the rapture, as the abomination of desolation takes place at the midpoint, and the return of our Lord and our gathering together to Him doesn't happen until after that.

ZNP · Sep 29, 2020

iamlamad said:
I disagree. I think most pretribbers are looking for signs of the times. What we are NOT looking for is the AoD or anything else that will come inside the 70th week.

I see a problem with people NOT expecting Christ could come TONIGHT. They may be expecting to see the Antichrist Beast first. This could cause them much harm.

heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

ASV so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

AMPC Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him.

Is it possible to believe in one's heart that they will see the Antichrist Beast first,. to also be eagerly waiting for Jesus - as if He might come tonight?

This is a good point, how is it that the day came on some unawares? How did it come as a thief in the night?

For example, lets consider the economy, US debt, situation with China, the protests and the election. It seems very reasonable right now to think none of these things will spiral out of control, we'll bounce back, etc. But imagine if the rapture takes place prior to the election. Companies losing key employees causing chaos, the US losing all those taxpayers who actually pay taxes, this could actually cause havoc in the election, now with He who restrains the evil stepping aside the protests could turn into full mayhem, and this would effect every country not just the US, perhaps pushing China into war.

My point is a projection that does not take into account the rapture would be radically changed in an instant. One day it sounds reasonable to say we'll weather the storm, the next day the ship is sinking and there is no one to answer your mayday call.

Douggg · Sep 29, 2020

nolidad said:
What you are doing is promoting a hypothesis as nearly doctrine! That is dangerous.

go to this link...

Hakhel - Wikipedia

"The term Hakhel (Hebrew הקהל) refers to a biblical commandment of assembling all Jewish men, women and children, as well as "strangers" to assemble and hear the reading of the Torah by the king of Israel once every seven years"

Douggg · Sep 29, 2020

iamlamad said:
Is it possible to believe in one's heart that they will see the Antichrist Beast first,. to also be eagerly waiting for Jesus - as if He might come tonight?

Rapture, anytime between now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to be God, ending the notion of the messianic age of the world saying peace and safety. May happen pretrib (pre-70th week) or may not.

When is the big day?

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

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Watching and Praying Always

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