Grapes in the Early Spring

The wine was...

  • Fermented

    Votes: 17 77.3%
  • Unfermented

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22

Mr. M

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I believe God perfectly preserved His Word in the English language (KJB). So based on reading the Bible in the English, I don’t get that impression. I don’t believe you or the recent scholar knows Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek with 100% certainty. I believe the scholar is only guessing as to what these languages say because they are dead languages.
The scriptures clearly condemn the excess of alcohol use, which is also a clear testimony that wine was
a common commodity for people to enjoy, and the wicked or weak to abuse. You can make a strong
case from the Bible for moderation, but a romantic dinner for a husband and wife can include a bottle
of wine, without this excessive concern for "pandora's box".
 
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Mr. M

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Sugar is a slow killer, but alcohol can kill you today or tomorrow because of a drunk driver or because a person took a broken bottle and stabbed a person in a bar fight. A person can overdose on alcohol and die. Then there are those who made bad decisions because of alcohol whereby they are locked up in prison. Alcohol can lead to unwanted pregnancies and other bad things that are not just related to death. Innocent families have been killed or ruined by alcohol. While sugar is really bad, sugar cannot make claims to such destruction that alcohol leaves in its wake.
Addictive behavior goes way beyond alcohol, and who is to say that behavior isn't established in
children who consume excess sweets. If only there was some child development research that shows
how much adult behavior is established well before the age of 12.
At least they aren't drinking and driving at that age.
 
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Mr. M

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Jesus said you know a tree by its fruit. Alcohol has more bad fruit than good fruit.
"And fruit doesn't fall far from the tree". Maybe the problem is bad parenting/genes.
"visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third
and to the fourth generation."
 
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Anyone could mention the plague of child obesity in America and adolescent diabetes, which of course
is affecting and killing people years before they will be old enough to drink or drive.

But this is kind of talk is a diversion away from the bad destructive nature of alcohol. One bad thing does not undo another. Just because excessive sugar is bad and should be spoken against, does not mean we should not speak against alcohol. Both are bad and should be spoken against. The problem is that many Pro-Alcohol Christians believe sugar and alcohol are on the same playing field when they are not. God did not give us a liberty to drink known poisons (i.e. alcohol). Sugar while it can cause diabetes for some and other health problems, this is not the case for all who eat sugar on occasion. There are many families who lived long lives and have eaten deserts many times. Alcohol can kill the innocent people even if they don't even drink alcohol. Somebody drinking alcohol behind a wheel can kill an innocent family. So in one day, alcohol can kill. One day a person eats an apple pie and they drive is not going to kill anyone. A person goes to a bar and they drink and get a little drunk, and then a bar fight breaks out, and they can potentially kill another person by stabbing them with broken bottle (because they are not thinking clearly). Things that a person would not normally while sober, they will do while under the influence of alcohol. They can get caught up in sexual misconduct and or hurt their family. Sugar doesn't do that. So no. Not the same ballpark. Not even close. I shouldn't even have to tell folks this.
 
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"And fruit doesn't fall far from the tree". Maybe the problem is bad parenting/genes.
"visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third
and to the fourth generation."

No, it's the beverage itself that is bad and brings forth bad fruit. If it was a good and healthy beverage like plenty of water, then it would lead to good fruit in that person's life health wise.
 
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Der Alte

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I believe God perfectly preserved His Word in the English language (KJB). So based on reading the Bible in the English, I don’t get that impression. I don’t believe you or the recent scholar knows Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek with 100% certainty. I believe the scholar is only guessing as to what these languages say because they are dead languages.
WRONG! Neither Greek nor Hebrew are or have ever been "dead languages." This is what false teachers tell their followers to get them to accept the teacher's interpretation.
Greek has always been the language of Greece. Hebrew has always been the language of the Jews. Neither the Jews nor the Greeks have ever ceased to exist. There are some differences between the current daily spoken Greek and Hebrew but the meaning of Greek and Hebrew scriptures has been passed down from generation to generation. English has changed from 1611 when the KJV was translated but we still know the meaning of the 800+ archaic words which have changed in meaning or dropped out of use altogether.
e.g. "conversation" did not mean "speech" but "manner of interacting with other people"
"pulse" Daniel 1:12 does not mean "heartbeat" but "vegetables."
“carriages” Acts of the Apostles 21:15 means “luggage.”
“instant” , Luke 23:23 means “urgent” or “insistent.”
“leasing” Psalms 5:6 means "deceit” or “falsehood.”
“meet” Mark 7:27 means fitting” or “proper.”
"bowels" Philippians 1:8 means "compassion," "feelings."
 
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Mr. M

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No, it's the beverage itself that is bad and brings forth bad fruit. If it was a good and healthy beverage like plenty of water, then it would lead to good fruit in that person's life health wise.
If I drank wine the way I drink water I would be dead.
If I drank water the way I drink wine I would be dead.
 
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No, it's the beverage itself that is bad and brings forth bad fruit. If it was a good and healthy beverage like plenty of water, then it would lead to good fruit in that person's life health wise.

The beverage in itself is good as was demonstrated way back in Post #58.

It's the abuse of the beverage that is bad, just like anything else. Abuse of the beverage is a form of gluttony. Gluttony is bad.
 
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Mr. M

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he problem is that many Pro-Alcohol Christians believe sugar and alcohol are on the same playing field when they are not.
I don't think any Christian who has posted on this thread is "pro alcohol".
Simply don't see the necessity for militant abstention.
I am not going to stop eating chocolate on occasion because some people are literally addicted
to the same. See post #222 on addictive behavior.
 
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The scriptures clearly condemn the excess of alcohol use, which is also a clear testimony that wine was
a common commodity for people to enjoy, and the wicked or weak to abuse. You can make a strong
case from the Bible for moderation, but a romantic dinner for a husband and wife can include a bottle
of wine, without this excessive concern for "pandora's box".

Here are...

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).
 
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I don't think any Christian who has posted on this thread is "pro alcohol".
Simply don't see the necessity for militant abstention.
I am not going to stop eating chocolate on occasion because some people are literally addicted
to the same. See post #222 on addictive behavior.

Alcohol is a drug. Drugs are bad. If you are defending the use of drinking alcohol for social reasons, then you are Pro-Alcohol. Alcohol is not the same as other drinks. In fact, most alcoholic beverages do not have nutrition labels on them because they do not offer no nutrition or health benefit. Alcohol is either a toxin or poison based on the amount one uses. If one uses a little alcohol, they are putting a toxin in their body that their immune system has to fight off. It's like a very mild poison that your body can fight off with very mild use. But even mild use still leads to health problems. It's clinically proven that alcohol shrinks the brain. Also, alcohol makes one less sober than they were before. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV).
 
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Mr. M

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Here are...

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

Amen. Something we should give our utmost attention. You left off one of my favorites.
Ephesians 5:18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.

Fact is, spirit-filled Christians don't give much mind to alcohol, unless they get caught up in
carnal discussions like this one. Take the fellowship where you can get it, find edifying topics
preferentially.
 
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Do tell. Same for alcoholic beverages, even tobacco.

Not without some side effects or health issues. If they don't kill themselves, they can kill others with tobacco and or alcohol. Drugs can kill. Drugs are bad.
 
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We probably should. I was anticipating bringing this up; but I was waiting for just the right time. I was waiting for an "alcohol is toxic" claim. Everything can have harmful a effect on the human body, if introduced in excess, even water, even oxygen.

Alcohol is a toxin or poison based on the dosage. In mild use it is a toxin. A fact. Your immune system has to fight off alcohol even in mild use.
 
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So you don't use any drugs? That is wise, since the great harlot is seducing the world
with pharmacies.

Drugs like Tylenol, etc. (while not perfect) are to help you if you have swollen muscles a really bad head ache, etc. Alcohol is a bad drug because even mild use can cause major health issues. Alcohol can lead to other sins as well.
 
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If I drank wine the way I drink water I would be dead.
If I drank water the way I drink wine I would be dead.

Misdirection. The dosage does not matter. Mild use can lead to health problems.
 
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Alcohol is a toxin or poison based on the dosage. In mild use it is a toxin. A fact. Your immune system has to fight off alcohol even in mild use.

Vitamin C has low toxicity and is not believed to cause serious adverse effects at high intakes [8]. The most common complaints are diarrhea, nausea, abdominal cramps, and other gastrointestinal disturbances due to the osmotic effect of unabsorbed vitamin C in the gastrointestinal tract [4,8].

Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin C
 
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