Temporal Salvation?

FreeGrace2 said:

The point is that there NEVER was any action.

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If there never was any action (not believing) then there is nothing to talk about. There was an action, however, and that is to not believe; to not believe is an action! It is a choice, a volitional decision!

If you cannot say the when of this decision, the point in time when this decision was completed, then you cannot say "never" because that is a defined point of time!

Doug

FreeGrace2 said:

How is it that you don't seem to realize what you said about the perfect.

In post #809 you said:
" Again, the perfect tense says the effects a completed past action are, at the present tense point of expression, still indicatively in force. There is no necessary definition of when in the past the action was completed or initiated, only that it was before the present moment of writing. Other I formation in the context is the only means of determining the past point of time when the action was actually completed!"

Recall that the issue is the phrase "have not believed" as to who will be condemned.

I agree; there is no necessary definition of WHEN in the past the action was completed. But that's not the point. The point is that there NEVER was any action.

And it is quite obvious that the phrase "have not believed" only applies to prior to the moment of writing. This isn't rocket science.

Here's the fact: people who "have not believed" will be condemned. That's the fact.

Therefore, those who "HAVE BELIEVED" won't be condemned. it's that simple.

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The only thing I said is in red...

FreeGrace2 said:

How does your copy and paste from Gotquestions.org help you? The quote says nothing about losing salvation.

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Since I never claimed it did, this one more example of you diverting the question from something you cannot deal with.

Good bye!

Doug

I said:
"The phrase "has not believed" can be rendered "has not believed EVER"."

TibiasDad said:

There is a huge difference between "can be rendered" and "is necessarily rendered" or generally rendered" which, in essence, is what you are trying to say!

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You're just trying to split hairs here. By "can be rendered", I mean "it means the same thing". Why do you keep trying to argue against reality?

The tense itself, be it perfect or aorist, does not define the when or the starting point of any given action! If it doesn't do that, you cannot factually assert what you are saying!

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I've never even mentioned a "starting point" of an action. In fact, both Jn 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 speak of INACTION, otherwise known as "have NOT believed".

Why do you keep missing that?

I said:
"How is it that you don't seem to realize what you said about the perfect.

In post #809 you said:
" Again, the perfect tense says the effects a completed past action are, at the present tense point of expression, still indicatively in force. There is no necessary definition of when in the past the action was completed or initiated, only that it was before the present moment of writing. Other I formation in the context is the only means of determining the past point of time when the action was actually completed!""

TibiasDad said:

The only thing I said is in red...

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Exactly what I said. But why is it that you don't seem to realize what YOU said?

I asked:
"How does your copy and paste from Gotquestions.org help you? The quote says nothing about losing salvation."

TibiasDad said:

Since I never claimed it did, this one more example of you diverting the question from something you cannot deal with.

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THen why in the world did you bother posting it then? I gave you a number of websites that explain the 4 crowns in the Bible as rewards, including the crown of life, which you thought was salvation itself.

Since the quote from Gotquestions didn't make your case, why did you quote it?

Doug,

Back in post #808 you said this regarding your previous claim about conditions being present in John 10:28 for believers in order to never perish:

"And you make the fatal mistake of believing that just because a condition is not specifically mentioned in a particular place that that means none exist! Wrong!!
If there is ever a stated conditional element for eternal life, then that condition is assumed even if not explicitly stated.

You have been repeatedly shown a plethora of evidence that both active and continual belief, expressed as obeying the commands of Jesus and enduring the trials that ensue the carrying of his cross in faithfulness, are the conditions that are absolutely necessary for eternal life to be given and ultimately experienced."

You are doing exactly what the apostle John warned readers not to do when reading the book of Revelation.

Rev 22-
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

While there are no plagues in John 10, you are ADDING to Scripture what is not there.

I highlighted in red a statement you made. Here's the problem for you: There has NEVER been "a stated conditional element for eternal life" other than simply believing in Jesus Christ for it.

I gave you twenty something verses that teach clearly that salvation and eternal life are obtained by believing.

In fact, since Jesus identified the recipients of etenral life as His sheep, that means they are already believers.

And once a believer, always a recipient of eternal life.

You fervently believe that believers who cease to believe ceast to possess eternal life.

So, where's your fav verse that actually says this?

You don't have any, Doug. It's all just a fantasy rolling around in your head.

Once a person is given eternal life, which is at the MOMENT of faith in Christ (John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11,13), they shall never perish.

It couldn't be stated any more clear than that.

Once a recipient, shall never perish is Jesus' message in John 10:28.

But you have to insert your highly presumptious opinion into what Jesus said.

What Jesus DIDN'T say was that recipients HAD TO keep believing in order to never perish.

If that were true, there would be clear verses that say that. And Jesus WOULD HAVE said that if it were true.

FreeGrace2 said:

Re: John 10:27,28, I said:
"Why don't you tell that to Jesus, who said in the clearest of words that recipients of eternal life shall never perish."

Where did your "if" come from? It's not in v.27 or v.28. So quit making up stuff.

Again, there is no "if" in either verse. So quit making up stuff.

You're just making up stuff again. There is NO CONDITION stated. The verses are very plainly stated, and there is NO CONDITION stated.

There is NO CONDITION STATED.

OK, now you're on track. So, where is the "IF IF IF" in either v.27 or v.28?

I didn't ask about this verse. Where is the IF IF IF conditional clause in John 10:27,28?

btw, there isn't even an IF conditional clause in Heb 5:9 either.


No, salvation is a present possession for believers. And once a person believes, that means at that MOMENT, the believer possesses eternal life, and they shall never perish.


Go ahead and place your faith in your own efforts. You'll see how far that gets you.

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My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who hear His Voice that results in following Him, are the ones who are given the promise of receiving eternal life.


Only those who hear and obey His voice, are given eternal life.


Thus the condition for receiving eternal life is to hear His voice and follow Him; Hearing His Voice and disregarding what He says results in becoming lost.


Hear and obey = receiving eternal life.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




Yours is the Gospel of lawlessness.



JLB

FreeGrace2 said:

Once a recipient, shall never perish is Jesus' message in John 10:28.

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Only those who remain in Christ continue to have eternal life.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who are removed from Christ no longer have eternal life.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.1 John 3:24




He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36



John wrote every single verse.


John 10:27-28 says the same thing.




JLB

JLB777 said:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Those who hear His Voice that results in following Him, are the ones who are given the promise of receiving eternal life.


Only those who hear and obey His voice, are given eternal life.


Thus the condition for receiving eternal life is to hear His voice and follow Him; Hearing His Voice and disregarding what He says results in becoming lost.


Hear and obey = receiving eternal life.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9




Yours is the Gospel of lawlessness.



JLB

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Amen!

JLB777 said:

Only those who remain in Christ continue to have eternal life.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. John 15:6


Those who are removed from Christ no longer have eternal life.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2


Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.1 John 3:24




He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36



John wrote every single verse.


John 10:27-28 says the same thing.




JLB

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And Amen!

JLB777 said:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Those who hear His Voice that results in following Him

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To hear IS to follow.

are the ones who are given the promise of receiving eternal life.

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You misunderstand, again. Jesus didn't say He gives His sheep the "promise of receiving eternal life". The verse is quite clear. He said, and I quote, "I GIVE them eternal life". Nothing about a promise of receiving (in the future) as you are insinuating.

And the apostle John made crystal clear about the FACT that believers possess eternal life, not a "promise of receiving eternal life in the future".

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I hope you do understand that "has given us" means it's already a done deal. Possession of eternal life is a reality for all believers.

Why do you persist in claiming that eternal life is just a promise in the distant future?

Only those who hear and obey His voice, are given eternal life.

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The verse certainly doesn't say that. The word "them" in v.28 refers to sheep. They are given eteranl life because they are His sheep, not because they listen and follow.

You keep trying to force listening and following as REQUIREMENTS or CONDITIONS for receiving eternal life. But that is totally unbiblical. And neither verse (v.27,28) say what you keep trying to claim.

Thus the condition for receiving eternal life is to hear His voice and follow Him

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This couldn't be more deluded. Here is what the Bible says about how to possess eternal life:

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, please point out any of these verses that teach that listening and following are requirements for possessing eternal life. Even though you can't.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

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According to scholars who wrote the Greek lexicons say that apietho, translated "not obey" means "disbelieve".

Yours is the Gospel of lawlessness.

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From all that you post and claim, it is clear that you have no idea what the Bible teaches.

I said:
"Once a recipient, shall never perish is Jesus' message in John 10:28."

JLB777 said:

Only those who remain in Christ continue to have eternal life.

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You are free to disagree all you want. But it doesn't change the TRUTH. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That is exactly what Jesus said. And you disagree with.

And you STILL haven't proven from Scripture that those who are sealed IN Christ can be unsealed. When do you think you are going to tackle that one?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. John 15:6

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Abiding is not a sealing. Not even close. Abiding is about fellowship, not relationship.

Those who are removed from Christ no longer have eternal life.

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Please prove your claim here by quoting a verse that actually SAYS that sealed believers can be "removed from Christ".

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

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Do you understand that pruning REMOVES some of the branch. So, please explain how a branch can lose some of itself.

But, of course, you can't. You have to hide behind metaphors to make your points and parables, but everyone knows that metaphors and parables can be explained in numerous ways.

What you STILL DON'T HAVE are any verses that plainly say what you believe.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

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Faulty statement. There are no instructions about "how to remain in Christ". You'd FIRST have to prove that a sealed believer can be unsealed. Let me know when you find such a verse. Until then, your statements are patently false.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.1 John 3:24

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Nope. Again, abiding is about fellowship, which you reject.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36

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Once again, "not obey" here means "disbelieve".

John wrote every single verse.

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He surely did.

John 10:27-28 says the same thing.

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These 2 verses say NOTHING about what you claim.

TibiasDad said:

If there never was any action (not believing) then there is nothing to talk about. There was an action, however, and that is to not believe; to not believe is an action! It is a choice, a volitional decision!

If you cannot say the when of this decision, the point in time when this decision was completed, then you cannot say "never" because that is a defined point of time!

Doug

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Doug, if not believing is an action ("a volitional decision")...
dare I say, a "work", then is the decision to believe also
an equal "work" at a defined point in time?

.

5thKingdom said:

Doug, if not believing is an action ("a volitional decision")...
dare I say, a "work", then is the decision to believe also
an equal "work" at a defined point in time?

.

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An action is not necessarily a "work", because a " work" is necessarily meritorious in theological terms! Since God cannot be obligated solely by any action of man, no action of man can be meritorious. Those who espouse a "works" gospel, necessarily assume that God is obligated to respond to our deeds because we have accomplished them. It is a "does the good that I do outweigh the bad that I do" or "have I paid for the bad I've done by doing sufficient amounts of good to recompense for the bad."

God saves graciously, period! A former president of my Alma Mater once said "Grace is grace, because the one being gracious didn't have to!" Nothing we can ever do can cause God to necessarily act positively toward us! Nothing! Our actions cannot obligate God in and of themselves!

Doug

TibiasDad said:

An action is not necessarily a "work", because a " work" is necessarily meritorious in theological terms!

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That sounds like a personal opinion rather than a Scripture to me.
You want to argue on one hand that a decision to NOT believe is a
"work" and then argue on the other hand a decision to believe is
NOT a "work" (because... fill in the blank). They are both the same.

Since God cannot be obligated solely by any action of man, no action of man can be meritorious.

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If man can produce saving faith or belief (as many teach)
then that would absolutely OBLIGATE God to finish the process.
I am not saying that either you or I believe that, only that we must
keep our argument consistent. If the decision to reject a "free offer"
is a work then the decision to accept that offer must be a work.


BTW... I do not accept the notion the Gospel is a "free offer",
but, rather, a proclamation of the finished work of Christ and
a command to repent.

Those who espouse a "works" gospel, necessarily assume that God is obligated to respond to our deeds because we have accomplished them.

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Most teaching a "works" gospel do imply God is OBLIGATED to
respond to their "faith" or "belief" or "trust"... and they have
select verses (but not Biblical harmony) to support that doctrine.
I think we both agree that is a false gospel.

It is a "does the good that I do outweigh the bad that I do" or "have I paid for the bad I've done by doing sufficient amounts of good to recompense for the bad."

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While that is true in some sects (that was my experience with
Catholics) that is not necessarily true with all. Many believe that
a singular act of "faith" or "belief" or "trust"... or even "inviting"
Jesus into their heart.... is all that is needed (on their part) for
God to be OBLIGATED to save them.

God saves graciously, period!

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I would not argue otherwise.
My argument was (only) with your suggestion that rejecting
some "free offer" is a decisive "work". If that is true then
accepting the same "free offer" is also a "work".

A former president of my Alma Mater once said "Grace is grace, because the one being gracious didn't have to!" Nothing we can ever do can cause God to necessarily act positively toward us! Nothing! Our actions cannot obligate God in and of themselves!
Doug

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I am sure the Bible is clear that grace is unmerited.
As I said, my ONLY objection to your comment was your
argument that rejecting a "free offer" was a decision and hence
a "work"... if you are not willing to be consistent and say that
accepting the SAME offer is also a decision and "work".


I am perfectly comfortable knowing that any repentance
is the result of regeneration and not the cause.


In fact, I am comfortable arguing that we are effectively
SAVED at the point we are "chosen" or "elected", in time,
before the foundation of the world... because God cannot
fail to achieve His purpose.


Jim
.

TibiasDad said:

God saves graciously, period!

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But in your theological world, God doesn't keep, graciously.

Nothing we can ever do can cause God to necessarily act positively toward us! Nothing! Our actions cannot obligate God in and of themselves!

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Interesting. You claim that man must continue to believe in order to stay saved. How is that not an obligation?

5thKingdom said:

If man can produce saving faith or belief (as many teach)
then that would absolutely OBLIGATE God to finish the process.
I am not saying that either you or I believe that, only that we must
keep our argument consistent. If the decision to reject a "free offer"
is a work then the decision to accept that offer must be a work.


BTW... I do not accept the notion the Gospel is a "free offer",
but, rather, a proclamation of the finished work of Christ and
a command to repent.

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Speaking of being consistent, if you "do not accept the notion the Gospel is a "free offer"", then there is a price that man must pay; what would that be?
Man has no ability to purchase anything of God. Nothing man could ever do can, in itself, obligate God to respond positively to man! It is impossible! God does what he does freely and without obligation to anything outside of himself!

5thKingdom said:

That sounds like a personal opinion rather than a Scripture to me.
You want to argue on one hand that a decision to NOT believe is a
"work" and then argue on the other hand a decision to believe is
NOT a "work" (because... fill in the blank). They are both the same.

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Why does it seem "like a personal opinion rather than a Scripture"?

And I differentiate " action" and "work", works being implied as meritorious and action's being merely acts without intent of merit. In other words, man can be required to do something without that act being meritorious in nature. God only responds to man because he has promised to do so if man repents! Repentance is a change of mind, A decision to go in a different direction based on new information or realization of truth previously unknown. Changes of mind are not meritorious in themselves, and the obedience that follows is just the expression of the truthfulness of the change of mind.


Doug

TibiasDad said:

Man has no ability to purchase anything of God. Nothing man could ever do can, in itself, obligate God to respond positively to man! It is impossible! God does what he does freely and without obligation to anything outside of himself!

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Then why do you claim that man MUST continue to believe in order to continue to be saved?? And where are the verses that say that?

Why does it seem "like a personal opinion rather than a Scripture"?

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Speaking of which, why haven't you provided any verses that say what you claim?

WordSword said:

Thanks, God's blessings to you also! In John 15:2, the phrase "in me" is the key thought of the phrase, and some can be in Christ as an Apostle (Judas) or disciple and not have faith in Him, as one commentator explains - Gill:

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit,...." There are two sorts of branches in Christ the vine; the one sort are such who have only an historical faith in him, believe but for a time, and are removed; they are such who only profess to believe in him, as Simon Magus did; are in him by profession only; they submit to outward ordinances, become church members, and so are reckoned to be in Christ, being in a church state, as the churches of Judea and Thessalonica, and others, are said, in general, to be in Christ; though it is not to be thought that every individual person in these churches were truly and savingly in him. These branches are unfruitful ones; what fruit they seemed to have, withers away, and proves not to be genuine fruit; what fruit they bring forth is to themselves, and not to the glory of God, being none of the fruits of his Spirit and grace."

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Judas was never in Christ, he had been stealing money from the treasury and according to John 6:64 Jesus knew Judas was not a true believer. This message is simply teaching that a person can be cast away by God or fail to abide in Christ. That’s why Jesus thought it was imperative that He conveyed this message to His faithful 11 apostles.