Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

ISteveB · Sep 25, 2020

cvanwey said:
Your Q: "What if you're simply not in the crew of Jesus followers who are praying for the impossible, and where the impossible is taking place, it's so dangerous--- say China--- to say anything about it beyond those whose lives are so impacted?"

My answer: I find it hard to imagine you still want to press this question of me? But here's my answer regardless....

Well, you did walk in the door. This is what happens when you do that.
At least where I'm from.

I find it extremely difficult to believe that no one on earth is praying for restoration of missing limb(s), removal of cerebral palsy, and/or to eradicate Downs syndrome for a loved one?

I think you're simply on the wrong continent. From what I read in Nik Ripken's book--- The Insanity of Obedience-- Christians in China are doing more than just praying, they're receiving answers to their prayers in the affirmative on such healings.

Amazon.com : nik ripken books

As the OP indicates, we have the plausible reasons:

A. Christians know 'God' will not answer the call to such requests...
B. Some Christians are actually praying for such requests, but God is perpetually not responding...
C. God ignores certain prayer requests, (which seems to include all of amputees, CP, and Downs)...
D. Other?

we have plausible reasons.... have they helped you gain awareness of God, or are you still without knowledge of God?
I find myself wondering--- do you actually want to know God, or are you just looking for excuses to not know him?
My experience with atheists online for the past 20+ years has been they'd rather argue, instead of do what God says.
As a result, they've spent decades arguing with complete strangers, who took mere moments to meet God, on God's terms, and the atheists still know nothing but really impressive, but invalid arguments to avoid knowing.

So..... what do YOU want?
God, or arguments?

Great, but EVEN if the Bible were true, good luck getting agreement, even among within Christians

I stopped needing agreement of people a long time ago. Perhaps it's just because I've been married for over 30 years now.

There's only One with whom I need agreement--- that's God.
As Abraham Lincoln said-- I don't need God on my side. I need to be on God's side.
As I know God is never wrong, and I know I'm often wrong, I'd rather align myself with God, so I can learn how to agree with him.

I'd rather be wrong in the eyes of the entire planet, and be right in the eyes of God, than the other way around.

I know you did. And I then responded appropriately. Your provided response presents a pickle...

Ok. Let's do it this way....
I don't want appropriate.
I want honest.
Tell me what you really want.
I don't believe in arguments, or debates.
As Paul told the Corinthians.

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Spiritual Wisdom

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Furthermore.... Looks as though God perpetually skips over any/all requests to restore amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs. I'm willing to bet that many of such requests, to reverse such conditions, are asked of Him in complete earnest -- from true believers.

And I think it's something entirely different. I'm still working through it, but I don't believe that Occam's razor is talking easy. And I do think too many people conflate easy and simple.
Simple, is seldom if ever easy.
I learned that in my physics studies.

What you think you see is not always an accurate perspective on what actually is.

I'm simply following the 'logic' of your provided response.

If God answers, according to His will, then prayer is irrelevant. He's going to do what He's going to do. And if He instead answers prayer, which was not already in His defined predestined will, then God did not will the actual outcome.

Jesus says otherwise. Luke 18.

1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’ ”
6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

As for this idea of predestination.... there is only one people group who is predestined... and we're only predestined to become like Jesus.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

absolutely no other people are predestined at all.

Then why are all requests to reverse amputees, CP, and Downs ignored?

I think the one's you're aware of are ignored, by your ideas of ignored.
I think you're simply not in the "in crowd" of those for whom they are not ignored. In which case, I'd say you have an entirely different problem you need to deal with first.

Will this be the standard by which you exclude yourself from heaven? Will this be the wall/bastion upon which you stand, as a sentry against truth, so you can have the appearance of being justified?
That is indeed your prerogative, but is a bad position which will ultimately destroy you, really worth holding your ground for?

I feel you continue to completely miss my point. BTW, God does not 'owe me anything.' What I observe, is that God is not answering the call to anyone's request to reverse an amputee, whom has CP, or Downs. Looks like He skips such requests, even though we seem to have countless anecdotal claims for God curing many other 'conditions and illnesses'?

Oh, I don't know. It looks pretty clear to me. You believe that you, indeed all atheists who, need this one tiny, genuinely insignificant piece of ground, to stand, as though it's the end all, of all truth, for no other reason than you think you're justified.
If I hadn't seen as much as I have in life, I'd probably feel the same. But the problem I'm having here is--- I have seen all that I have in life. And by the atheist grasping onto this, as though it's the sum of all truth, it seems to me that you're excluding yourself from learning more.

I don't see it as a good place to be. Definitely not healthy. In one sense, it seems to me to be the tirades of a spoiled child who isn't given a plate filled with candy before dinner.

Can you explain, in light of the fact you yourself state that God answers the call to all prayer; if done in complete earnest? Why does God not answer the call to prayer for these conditions, like it's so often claimed He does so for other conditions?

Again, I reiterate--- I think you're on the wrong continent, hanging with the wrong people.
Just because you're not seeing such things in the newspapers, on the news media does not mean they're not happening.
As stated before-- I'm a stage 4 metastatic melanoma cancer survivor. ALL of my doctors have stated that my survival from cancer is miraculous. They've said that I've exceeded their medical know-how, and technology.
I've asked them to write a paper on it.... none of them are interested. I have to say-- I don't understand that. I'd think that such an event would be newsworthy, at the very least in the field of oncology. But they're all practitioners, not researchers. they've made it clear they have no interest in writing a journal article. So, when they tell me--- you are a miracle, I find myself wondering why, and have simply asked them to stop telling me that.

In the end, the universe doesn't revolve around what you, or I think matters.
So, making this the sum total of all reality for why God cannot be real.... it really is a bad position to cling onto.

Belief is not a choice.

Actually it is....
So, this statement makes me wonder if you actually understand the idea of belief.
Nobody has ever stuck a gun to my head, and told me I have to believe.
I get up each new day, and I choose to believe God.
Biblical belief is a confidence, a trust.
I did not originally know if God was real or not.
I took a chance and I asked.
God answered. I knew at that moment, based on the answer, I wanted to believe him.
Every day since, in the good and bad times, I've had to learn what genuine belief was.
I've learned that biblical belief is indeed a choice. I choose to believe God, because I know he's reliable, dependable, faithful, and steadfast to what he's said.
I want that kind of reliability in my life. I actually like that kind of reliability in my life. It's not like I'll ever find it anywhere else, nor have I found it anywhere, or in anyone, else.

Thank you for the sermon. However, you do raise an interesting point. What we seem to have here is coercion, or an ultimatum. God has the ability to set any stage He wishes. If God is 'pure love', seems odd that the only alternative realm for humans to reside, outside of Heaven, is a place of eternal torture.

This is about our state before God.
Adam was created a living soul. He was in perfect harmony/union with God.
God told Adam about the trees, and if he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he'd die.
Adam ate, and he died spiritually, immediately. This spiritual death resulted in his body slowly dying, just like if you pluck a plant out of the ground, and lay it there, it slowly withers, and is ultimately dead.
the only way to make alive that which has died, is to resurrect it.
Part of the problem then becomes--- it's necessary to resolve what caused the the offense, which resulted in death to begin with. What the bible calls sin. I.e., breaking God's commandments, by disobeying them. We read that the wages of sin is death. I.e., there's a penalty, and that penalty is death.
So, God dealt with the sin, by giving us his son, who took our sin on himself, and died in our place. To demonstrate that God is satisfied with what Jesus did, he raised him from the dead, to never again die.
Now, all God asks is that we place our trust in Jesus, and by doing so, God will apply the offering of Jesus to our account, and make us right with God.
In doing this, God removes our old stony heart of flesh, cleanses us from our sin, gives a new heart of flesh, and a new spirit, and places his own Spirit in us, and as a result, gives us the wherewithal to live in agreement with his commands, and statutes, and ordinances.

So, God set the stage, and gives us the information we need, and we then need to make a choice..... do we place our trust in Jesus, so we can be made right with God, or do we tell God no, and live as we please, consequences be damned?
the bible says that God knows the end from the beginning. As such, he knows all the ways this could go, and has decided that there's no other way to do this. It has to be the way Jesus did it.

Apparently, unless you are an amputee, have cerebral palsy, or have Downs syndrome....

It's ironic that God has said the poor of this world are those who are rich in faith. James 2.

Look at you.... are you healthy? You appear intelligent enough to figure things out, and it hasn't helped you any beyond what appears to be an anger with God because he doesn't fit the way you think it should be done.

cvanwey · Sep 25, 2020

Prior to proceeding, I see nothing but a complete dodge of a very basic observation.

God looks to skip directly over any/all petitionary and intercessory prayer requests to 'cure' amputees, people with cerebral palsy, and/or individuals with Downs syndrome. You have spent every response, thus far, avoiding this very basic observation.

ISteveB said:
I think you're simply on the wrong continent. From what I read in Nik Ripken's book--- The Insanity of Obedience-- Christians in China are doing more than just praying, they're receiving answers to their prayers in the affirmative on such healings.

Amazon.com : nik ripken books

Thanks for the generalized book suggestion?

You have again avoided a very basic general observation. Again...

People with missing limbs, or whom have cerebral palsy, or whom have Downs syndrome; whom also pray for removal from these conditions, have a success rate of what looks to be about 0%.

You state God answers all prayer, if done 'appropriately'. I find it statistically 'improbable/impossible' to conclude that no one is praying for these three cures ''appropriately"?

ISteveB said:
we have plausible reasons.... have they helped you gain awareness of God, or are you still without knowledge of God?
I find myself wondering--- do you actually want to know God, or are you just looking for excuses to not know him?
My experience with atheists online for the past 20+ years has been they'd rather argue, instead of do what God says.
As a result, they've spent decades arguing with complete strangers, who took mere moments to meet God, on God's terms, and the atheists still know nothing but really impressive, but invalid arguments to avoid knowing.

So..... what do YOU want?
God, or arguments?

My only purpose here, is to do exactly what is intended of this forum arena:

"A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith"

Thus far, you continue to slip directly around the very direct and very basic observation.

Here are the options, as presented (again):

1. God exists, but chooses to perpetually ignore requests to 'cure' amputees, CP, and Downs -- NO MATTER WHAT. -- Even though Christians alternatively claim God cures many of other conditions? (This would require you to reconcile that your prior statement, that God answers all prayer requests if done in earnest, is likely demonstrably false).

2. The ones claiming God cures them of their alternative conditions, are instead mistaken, and such 'cured' processes are actually happening by way of some alternative means.

Which is it? 1. or 2.?

ISteveB said:
I stopped needing agreement of people a long time ago. Perhaps it's just because I've been married for over 30 years now.

There's only One with whom I need agreement--- that's God.
As Abraham Lincoln said-- I don't need God on my side. I need to be on God's side.
As I know God is never wrong, and I know I'm often wrong, I'd rather align myself with God, so I can learn how to agree with him.

I'd rather be wrong in the eyes of the entire planet, and be right in the eyes of God, than the other way around.

If you are going to pelt out entire Bible Chapters, as your 'evidence', please at least endorse what specific message you specifically take away from such Chapters

We could even both be believers, but disagree as to what each Chapter is actually attempting to convey. And since we apparently cannot ask the authors themselves, or the author(s) will not currently answer when asked, it would instead be an endless barrage of unresolved discourse

So please, just state what you mean exactly, and do not quote entire Chapters, where there looks to exist no universal truth message.

ISteveB said:
Ok. Let's do it this way....
I don't want appropriate.
I want honest.
Tell me what you really want.
I don't believe in arguments, or debates.
As Paul told the Corinthians.

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Spiritual Wisdom
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Nothing here addresses my basic observation.

If God answers prayer(s), always according to His will, as you suggest, then the act of prayer is actually irrelevant, right?.?.?.? God is already going to do what God is already going to do.

ISteveB said:
And I think it's something entirely different. I'm still working through it, but I don't believe that Occam's razor is talking easy. And I do think too many people conflate easy and simple.
Simple, is seldom if ever easy.
I learned that in my physics studies.

What you think you see is not always an accurate perspective on what actually is.

You seem to have a talent for not answering direct questions. I'll ask, yet again...

According to basic observation, God looks to never 'cure' people with missing limbs, people with cerebral palsy, or with Downs syndrome. This looks to contradict your prior notion that God answers all prayer requests, if done 'correctly.'

Do you acknowledge this finding, or are you going to continue in direct avoidance of the question?

ISteveB said:
Jesus says otherwise. Luke 18.

1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’ ”
6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

As for this idea of predestination.... there is only one people group who is predestined... and we're only predestined to become like Jesus.

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

absolutely no other people are predestined at all.

Nothing here addresses my observation, yet again. (Repeated from above...):

If God answers prayer(s), always according to His will, as you suggest, then the act of prayer is actually irrelevant, right?.?.?.? God is already going to do what God is already going to do.

ISteveB said:
I think the one's you're aware of are ignored, by your ideas of ignored.
I think you're simply not in the "in crowd" of those for whom they are not ignored. In which case, I'd say you have an entirely different problem you need to deal with first.

Will this be the standard by which you exclude yourself from heaven? Will this be the wall/bastion upon which you stand, as a sentry against truth, so you can have the appearance of being justified?
That is indeed your prerogative, but is a bad position which will ultimately destroy you, really worth holding your ground for?

You have again avoided my direct question. You are instead issuing a red herring. Please stop.

Why are all requests to reverse amputees, CP, and Downs ignored?

God seems to 'cure' other illnesses, conditions, and diseases,; but skips right over these three at what looks to be 100% of the time.

ISteveB said:
Oh, I don't know. It looks pretty clear to me. You believe that you, indeed all atheists who, need this one tiny, genuinely insignificant piece of ground, to stand, as though it's the end all, of all truth, for no other reason than you think you're justified.
If I hadn't seen as much as I have in life, I'd probably feel the same. But the problem I'm having here is--- I have seen all that I have in life. And by the atheist grasping onto this, as though it's the sum of all truth, it seems to me that you're excluding yourself from learning more.

I don't see it as a good place to be. Definitely not healthy. In one sense, it seems to me to be the tirades of a spoiled child who isn't given a plate filled with candy before dinner.

If you would have stopped at 'I don't know', at least we might be getting somewhere. But you then went on an attempt to 'rationalize'.

My observation is not 'insignificant.' Especially to all those whom live with, or have family members or friends with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or Downs syndrome.

You seem to think God aided in the cure for your cancer? So the question again comes to the forefront...

Why does God not cure people with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, or Downs, at the very same rate as cancer survivors?

This again begs the following:

1. God exists, but chooses to perpetually ignore requests to 'cure' amputees, CP, and Downs -- NO MATTER WHAT. -- Even though Christians alternatively claim God cures many of other conditions? (This would require you to reconcile that your prior statement, that God answers all prayer requests if done in earnest, is likely demonstrably false).

2. The ones claiming God cures them of their alternative conditions, are instead mistaken, and such 'cured' processes are actually happening by way of some alternative means.

Which is it? 1. or 2.?

ISteveB said:
Again, I reiterate--- I think you're on the wrong continent, hanging with the wrong people.
Just because you're not seeing such things in the newspapers, on the news media does not mean they're not happening.
As stated before-- I'm a stage 4 metastatic melanoma cancer survivor. ALL of my doctors have stated that my survival from cancer is miraculous. They've said that I've exceeded their medical know-how, and technology.
I've asked them to write a paper on it.... none of them are interested. I have to say-- I don't understand that. I'd think that such an event would be newsworthy, at the very least in the field of oncology. But they're all practitioners, not researchers. they've made it clear they have no interest in writing a journal article. So, when they tell me--- you are a miracle, I find myself wondering why, and have simply asked them to stop telling me that.

In the end, the universe doesn't revolve around what you, or I think matters.
So, making this the sum total of all reality for why God cannot be real.... it really is a bad position to cling onto.

Glad to here you beat cancer!

Cancer sometimes goes into remission, or is deemed 'cured'. Medicine is called a practice for a reason

We already have claims of people being cured of cancer, whom attribute this cure to God, but seem to also sidestep or maybe undervalue the medical intervention portion

Was your cancer cured without medical intervention, of any kind?

Humans with missing limbs, cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome, are never cured (no matter what, ever). Why does God skip right over these conditions with what looks to be 100% certainty? While, at the same time, seems to aid in cures for other conditions, like yours?

ISteveB said:
Actually it is....
So, this statement makes me wonder if you actually understand the idea of belief.
Nobody has ever stuck a gun to my head, and told me I have to believe.
I get up each new day, and I choose to believe God.
Biblical belief is a confidence, a trust.
I did not originally know if God was real or not.
I took a chance and I asked.
God answered. I knew at that moment, based on the answer, I wanted to believe him.
Every day since, in the good and bad times, I've had to learn what genuine belief was.
I've learned that biblical belief is indeed a choice. I choose to believe God, because I know he's reliable, dependable, faithful, and steadfast to what he's said.
I want that kind of reliability in my life. I actually like that kind of reliability in my life. It's not like I'll ever find it anywhere else, nor have I found it anywhere, or in anyone, else.

Make yourself believe Donald Trump is not the U.S president, without some new catalyst. Just simply will a change in your current belief. If you can, then you can control your belief. If you cannot, then you have just demonstrated that belief is not a choice.

ISteveB said:
This is about our state before God.
Adam was created a living soul. He was in perfect harmony/union with God.
God told Adam about the trees, and if he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he'd die.
Adam ate, and he died spiritually, immediately. This spiritual death resulted in his body slowly dying, just like if you pluck a plant out of the ground, and lay it there, it slowly withers, and is ultimately dead.
the only way to make alive that which has died, is to resurrect it.
Part of the problem then becomes--- it's necessary to resolve what caused the the offense, which resulted in death to begin with. What the bible calls sin. I.e., breaking God's commandments, by disobeying them. We read that the wages of sin is death. I.e., there's a penalty, and that penalty is death.
So, God dealt with the sin, by giving us his son, who took our sin on himself, and died in our place. To demonstrate that God is satisfied with what Jesus did, he raised him from the dead, to never again die.
Now, all God asks is that we place our trust in Jesus, and by doing so, God will apply the offering of Jesus to our account, and make us right with God.
In doing this, God removes our old stony heart of flesh, cleanses us from our sin, gives a new heart of flesh, and a new spirit, and places his own Spirit in us, and as a result, gives us the wherewithal to live in agreement with his commands, and statutes, and ordinances.

So, God set the stage, and gives us the information we need, and we then need to make a choice..... do we place our trust in Jesus, so we can be made right with God, or do we tell God no, and live as we please, consequences be damned?
the bible says that God knows the end from the beginning. As such, he knows all the ways this could go, and has decided that there's no other way to do this. It has to be the way Jesus did it.

I doubt God's existence. I cannot will a change in this current position without some sort of new catalyst - (likely some sort of revelation). I was an earnest seeker for decades. I have asked many to pray for me as well in the past, including here. God looks to have skipped right over me. So please spare me the empty threats

I do not need a lesson on how coercion works. He set a stage were the only alternative realm is pure damnation. (i.e.) trust anyways or you will burn... Seems like a rather odd form of 'love'?

Again, I cannot simply will a belief in God, Big Foot, Spider Man, or etc...

God appears to not want me to know He exists, but expects me to do something I cannot do -- will a change in my current belief. Bazaar?

ISteveB said:
It's ironic that God has said the poor of this world are those who are rich in faith. James 2.

Look at you.... are you healthy? You appear intelligent enough to figure things out, and it hasn't helped you any beyond what appears to be an anger with God because he doesn't fit the way you think it should be done.

I'm no more angry at God than I am at Big Foot

However, what continues to irk me, is 'apologists' whom dodge direct questions.

Why does God look to skip right over, 100% of the time, amputees, people with cerebral palsy, and Downs syndrome?

InterestedAtheist · Sep 26, 2020

ISteveB said:
I don't think that's the simple answer at all.
I think that's the easy answer.

So, this just tells me that you exclude yourself from being able to understanding what you ask.

I think people conflate easy and simply too quickly, and have lost the understanding of what simple actually is.

This makes no sense at all.....
I think you used the wrong punctuation in this. Those should be commas, if I'm going to try to make it understandable.
ok.... even if I put commas in there, this question is missing the question. All you've done here is to make all of this a preface.

I don't know.
As I'd stated in my initial post.... some of us do pray for the impossible, and we see it happen.
Perhaps you really are simply in the wrong group, and have excluded yourself from being able to observe the impossible.

I think that's the case for everything.
Can you explain why others of your system of unbelief do the things they do, and engage in the activities/practices of unbelief they engage in?
It's not possible to explain the actions/choices of others without knowing them personally.
So, this is a gimme, no matter which direction you go with it.

HAving some ideas, while interesting is speculatory at best, and it's been made pretty clear by the atheists here that they don't like being speculated about.

I think some people are afraid to pray for the impossible. Not because they're afraid God won't respond. but because they're afraid God will do what they're asking for, and don't know how to deal with it.

I remember when I was 23. I had a dear friend die, and it was heart-wrenching.
I went to his funeral, and as I sat there looking at his body in the casket, I really wanted to pray for him to be raised from the dead. but as I thought about it, and thought it through, I realized that I came up with a large number of reasonable excuses for why I shouldn't. Reasonable or not... they were all excuses. It came down to--- I was too afraid to put God to the test.

When I was 18, I was walking down the street, and saw a blind man walking on the other side of the street. I thought-- Steve, go pray for this guy, and see God heal him.
I then found myself running through a list of excuses as to why I better not.... all of them wound up being nothing more than I'd better not give God the opportunity to show himself strong in behalf of those who seek him.

As I know I'm not the only one who's felt this way--- I've heard numerous sermons on it over the years, it seems to me that it's not God's unwillingness, but our fearfulness of his readiness to do exactly what he said he'd do for those who believe him.

Another Christian who can't answer the question. Surprise, surprise.

InterestedAtheist · Sep 26, 2020

bling said:
OK

I do not share those precise beliefs, but I still have some ideas about why they would pray like this:

They believe the age of outward obvious miracles has past and might see good reasons why obvious scientifically proof miracles would hurt the spread of the gospel and thus are not needed.

There are lots of things we need to pray for in the expansion of the Kingdom, so that is where we need to spend our pray time.

Thank you, Bling. That's a reasonable answer, and I'm glad to get it.
But do they, though? Because I see an awful lot of Christians who believe that miracles - actual, tangible miracles do happen. So why is it they never pray for them themselves?

And why would anyone believe that the age of outward miracles has passed, anyway? Has God suddenly become less powerful? No Christian that I know of believes so. It's not like miracles stopped with the Bible. Christians have been reporting remarkable miracles for the past two thousand years, as we saw in this very thread. There are still plenty of reports of remarkable miracles today, and plenty of Christians who believe they are real.

As to scientifically impossible miracles hurting the cause of the gospel - well, anything scenario can be imagined, of course, but the last time God was alleged to have performed amazing miracles in the Bible it set off the Christian Church itself. It flies in the face of both reason and Christian narrative to say that God performing miracles would make less people believe in Christianity.

bling · Sep 26, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Thank you, Bling. That's a reasonable answer, and I'm glad to get it.
But do they, though? Because I see an awful lot of Christians who believe that miracles - actual, tangible miracles do happen. So why is it they never pray for them themselves?

And why would anyone believe that the age of outward miracles has passed, anyway? Has God suddenly become less powerful? No Christian that I know of believes so. It's not like miracles stopped with the Bible. Christians have been reporting remarkable miracles for the past two thousand years, as we saw in this very thread. There are still plenty of reports of remarkable miracles today, and plenty of Christians who believe they are real.

As to scientifically impossible miracles hurting the cause of the gospel - well, anything scenario can be imagined, of course, but the last time God was alleged to have performed amazing miracles in the Bible it set off the Christian Church itself. It flies in the face of both reason and Christian narrative to say that God performing miracles would make less people believe in Christianity.

Explaining the need for first century miracles is a huge topic, I think I could write a book on that topic and I have not thought of how to even begin talking about that with an atheist, since Christians ask the same question and I mostly teach them.

For 400 years prior to Christ there had been no one performing outward obvious miracles as far as we can tell. John the Baptist comes along prophesizing, but performing no outward miracles and the masses (all the people) believed he was a prophet of God and accepted his teaching. Jesus comes along performing all kinds of obvious outward miracles showing for one thing, to be much greater than John the Baptist. The Old Testament is full of prophecies about the coming Messiah and the fact He would perform miracles so he will have to perform miracle for at least that reason. There are also prophecies Jesus will give, about those coming after Him performing miracles, so that will have to be fulfilled for a while at least. Jesus is also Deity on earth and He will add to the proof of His deity by performing miracles in His own name and without saying God is doing it, but He is doing it.

When Jesus leaves on Pentecost we have the start of the Church, but it will take a lot more for the Jews, then just words, to convince them to change from their God given “true” religion to God given Christianity. The “miracles” are mostly for the Jews and to show them Christ was truly the Messiah.

There is a lot more I could get into, but that is the gist of it.

To understand how outward obvious miracles would hurt the gospel growth and the individual’s growth in Godly type Love is another huge topic. It has a lot to do with the way “growth” is supposed to happen, which is not what is happening in the West. Let me give you an example of how it should work:

I am involved with members of the unregistered Christian Church in China, which I see following Christ’s master plan of evangelism. There is no centralized denomination with high paying positions, committees, big budgets, lots of infrastructure, prestigious positions and money. There are lots of house churches (10-40 people), with only the Bible, and under severe persecution. The highest position is unpaid house leader (some might also be unpaid elders). They are growing rapidly, no outward obvious miracles are being done, always having to train the church group to split since maybe only 40 people can fit in the house. They do not go out and bring nonbelievers to their house church, since that is risky, so each individual or two are teaching/presenting Christ to their friends, family and neighbors they trust. The idea is to allow Christ to live and work through them mentoring the nonbeliever in Love. After the nonbeliever has counted the cost of becoming a Christian and shows this commitment with baptism, they will join the house church. It was thought there were no Christians in China 30 years ago, but today the estimate is more like 100 million and growing. What do you think the communist would do to a Christian, who performed an outward obvious miracle?

InterestedAtheist · Sep 27, 2020

bling said:
Explaining the need for first century miracles is a huge topic, I think I could write a book on that topic and I have not thought of how to even begin talking about that with an atheist, since Christians ask the same question and I mostly teach them.

I think it's very interesting you say that. Why do you think that the answers you give them would not also be satisfying to me? Is there something wrong with the answers you give to Christians? Surely if you simply give reasonable answers that follow logic and evidence, then I will be convinced.

bling said:
For 400 years prior to Christ there had been no one performing outward obvious miracles as far as we can tell.

That's an awfully big caveat you have there. It's quite possible - if miracles exist at all - that they were taking place. In fact, the Roman world was full of miracles and miracle-workers. They weren't uncommon at all. If anything, they were the opposite.

bling said:
Jesus is also Deity on earth and He will add to the proof of His deity by performing miracles in His own name and without saying God is doing it, but He is doing it.

Okay. Sounds fair enough.

bling said:
When Jesus leaves on Pentecost we have the start of the Church, but it will take a lot more for the Jews, then just words, to convince them to change from their God given “true” religion to God given Christianity. The “miracles” are mostly for the Jews and to show them Christ was truly the Messiah.

The thing is, it seems to me as if you are...well, to put it charitably, just putting your own interpretation on this. God didn't tell you this, you just worked it out because it made sense to you, given the conditions of the world.
And so when you say that these things happened, I am skeptical of why they happened, because you have no evidence, just your own supposition.

bling said:
To understand how outward obvious miracles would hurt the gospel growth and the individual’s growth in Godly type Love is another huge topic. It has a lot to do with the way “growth” is supposed to happen, which is not what is happening in the West.

Again, this is just what you yourself happen to think. there are some Christians who think the same as you, some who think similar things with variations, and some who would disagree with you strongly. And none of you, as far as I can tell, have any actual justification for what you are saying. You're just reading the Bible and saying, "It must be like this because that makes sense."

bling said:
Let me give you an example of how it should work:

Well, I hope you see what I mean here. This is just your own idea. Probably a good idea, but how do you know?

bling said:
After the nonbeliever has counted the cost of becoming a Christian and shows this commitment with baptism, they will join the house church. It was thought there were no Christians in China 30 years ago, but today the estimate is more like 100 million and growing.

You know something? Christians, not infrequently, ask me why I come on these forums and debate. Sometimes they ask it rather rudely, with a "What business of it is yours?" feel. And I normally give answers about mental exercise, intellectual practise and interest in what is, after all, a fascinating field of human psychology.
But there is another reason as well, and I will not forget what you just said. Please don't take offence, but you realise I'm an atheist, and since I don't believe in God I do not think your grand plan of evangelising the Chinese is a worthy goal. On the contrary, to my eyes you are meddling in their culture and putting innocent citizens in considerable danger - a danger that you, I think, are probably not facing. Please don't answer trying to justify your actions - I am sure you think you're doing a good thing. But I hope you realise that, if a person sincerely believes that God does not exist, then from their point of view they are right in seeing what you are doing as a very wrong thing. I sincerely hope your actions will not come back to haunt you one day.

bling said:
What do you think the communist would do to a Christian, who performed an outward obvious miracle?

They would probably be in very serious trouble. Unless, of course, the miracle they prayed for was for the Chinese government to have a change of heart and become Christian? While that's not technically an impossible event, I'd say it might even count as evidence of a miracle for a skeptic like myself.

But again, let's look at the bigger picture here - and I'm sorry, but I really have to ask you to focus again on the question. I am asking you why Christians who pray to God for things, believing that He wants to help them and does help them - why they would never pray for the impossible. You answer with a very specific response of a scenario in which you believe it is likely that God answering a prayer would cause trouble in the world. As far as I can see, that answer is full of holes.

First: so, it would cause trouble. when has that stopped God before? The Bible is full of stories of God answering prayers with trouble following. A skeptic might argue that this is because it makes a better story for the people who wrote the Bible, but let's leave that for now.

Second: who are you to say that God could not solve these problems? Now it's you, the Christian, talking about God like He's some kind of genie, with whom you have to phrase your wishes very carefully in case he tricks you by giving you literally what you asked for. Do you think you're so powerful that you might accidentally abuse the enormous power of prayer and cause a catastrophe? That's what it sounds like you're saying.

Third: the fact that to make your point you had to conjure up a highly specific scenario shows the weakness in your argument. Do you imagine that any time God causes a miracle to happen, it will cause a reprisal from a vengeful government? What if a Christian in China were to pray for his uncle to be healed from cancer discreetly? Or for a woman to rise from the dead in the middle of the night, without anyone else knowing? And that's before we even stop to consider that most cases around the world where an indisputable miracle happened, the most likely consequence would be hugely beneficial for Christianity, causing floods of people to convert. As you yourself said above.

Fourth: getting back to the main question again - why do Christians themselves not pray to God and ask Him for miracles? Look how eagerly Christians grasp at miracle stories (which usually turn out to have no substance). How much more eagerly would they grasp at actual and proven miracles! So why aren't they praying for them?

I think the reason is, because they know God never actually answers prayers. Unless they're prayers that might happen anyway, by luck. But in that case, how do they know it was God that answered them?
Answer: I suppose they count the hits, ignore the misses, and tell themselves that God has a very good reason for not performing actual miracles. He must do. Because if He exists, there's no other explanation.

Perhaps they ought to think it through a little more.

ISteveB · Sep 27, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Another Christian who can't answer the question. Surprise, surprise.

Ironically, for all your complaints, you're still without any knowledge.

Do you really think that ignorance from failure to engage is going to help you get what you claim to seek?

I simply showed you that the ways you're going about this are all wrong.

InterestedAtheist · Sep 27, 2020

ISteveB said:
Ironically, for all your complaints, you're still without any knowledge.

Do you really think that ignorance from failure to engage is going to help you get what you claim to seek?

I simply showed you that the ways you're going about this are all wrong.

Another Christian who can't answer the question. Surprise, surprise.

ISteveB · Sep 27, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Another Christian who can't answer the question. Surprise, surprise.

And you're still without actual understanding.

bling · Sep 27, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
I think it's very interesting you say that. Why do you think that the answers you give them would not also be satisfying to me? Is there something wrong with the answers you give to Christians? Surely if you simply give reasonable answers that follow logic and evidence, then I will be convinced.

At some time in everyone’s life, they seem to ask: “How could a Loving God allow this_____ to happen?” They are really are asking: “Why wasn’t I born into a wonderful Garden, without needy people, without hardship, lacking in nothing, no death, no hell, and having time walking with God”? That is where God personally desires us to be, but unfortunately it is not the best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective. This messed up world, full of tragedies, death, hell, and hurting people is the best place for willing humans to fulfill their earthly objective. Going over that with an atheist does not appear logical, since you have not accepted the objective.

With a Christian I feed off their personal experiences to show how the situation we are in is the best. I do not go over this if the individual is in the middle of a tragedy of course, since they need support and not a lesson.

InterestedAtheist said:
That's an awfully big caveat you have there. It's quite possible - if miracles exist at all - that they were taking place. In fact, the Roman world was full of miracles and miracle-workers. They weren't uncommon at all. If anything, they were the opposite.

OK, scripture is only following the preparation, life, and start of Christianity, so scripture is not addressing the rest of the world and God’s interaction with people in distant lands. We are only addressing obvious outward miracles and that is what I am talking about.

InterestedAtheist said:
The thing is, it seems to me as if you are...well, to put it charitably, just putting your own interpretation on this. God didn't tell you this, you just worked it out because it made sense to you, given the conditions of the world.
And so when you say that these things happened, I am skeptical of why they happened, because you have no evidence, just your own supposition.

I think you are giving me too much credit if you think I came up with this on my own. You do have go deep into scripture see what is happening. Paul whole Roman letter it to reconcile the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians in Rome. This is a huge problem up to the destruction of Judea and the temple. The famine in Judea and the large Gentile contribution sent to the Jews was to help the Jews to start to accept Gentiles as brothers. The strong persecutions of Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and all of Judea caused the Jewish Christians to flee to Judea an some would seek refuge with Gentile Christians.

As far as saying: “you just worked it out because it made sense to you”, you could make that comment about anything I said and it really does not help to attack me. You need to start with 1 Cor 13:10:

What Paul has been talking about in gifts and the body in Chp. 12 and takes a little tangent to talk about Love, but than in Chp.13: 8 Paul returns to his discussion of gifts and the body. In Paul’s discussion of the body he talks a lot about the different parts and how we all need to be one. But are there actually one at that time or is this something Paul is wanting and encouraging them to be?

Paul says: 1 Cor. 12: 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Paul uses that same idea in Eph. 4: 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

In Eph. Paul tells them they need to be united in one body and he also tells them how they are in parts now (have not reached the unity). Eph. 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

“To teleion” in context is the opposite of being apart (meaning put together). The parts just previously being discussed by Paul were parts of the “body”, the body had not yet come together even at the time of the Ephesians letter, because there were still Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. This was a huge problem that Paul worked on heavily and would explain the persecution, famine and final destruction in Judas. “Body” is neuter and would be the word the Corinthian reader would easily chose to be the neuter word “to teleion” is referring to.

Paul is saying “when the body is made united as one” or “the parts of the body are joined”. Again it would be poor grammar in Greek or English to say “it” (or the equivalent of “it”) and be referring to a word you used a sentence later, but maybe you can give me examples?

I would say it was only some time after the destruction of Jerusalem that Jewish Christians quite referring to themselves as Jewish Christians and just called themselves Christians.

InterestedAtheist said:
Again, this is just what you yourself happen to think. there are some Christians who think the same as you, some who think similar things with variations, and some who would disagree with you strongly. And none of you, as far as I can tell, have any actual justification for what you are saying. You're just reading the Bible and saying, "It must be like this because that makes sense."

InterestedAtheist said:
Well, I hope you see what I mean here. This is just your own idea. Probably a good idea, but how do you know?

You know something? Christians, not infrequently, ask me why I come on these forums and debate. Sometimes they ask it rather rudely, with a "What business of it is yours?" feel. And I normally give answers about mental exercise, intellectual practise and interest in what is, after all, a fascinating field of human psychology.
But there is another reason as well, and I will not forget what you just said. Please don't take offence, but you realise I'm an atheist, and since I don't believe in God I do not think your grand plan of evangelising the Chinese is a worthy goal. On the contrary, to my eyes you are meddling in their culture and putting innocent citizens in considerable danger - a danger that you, I think, are probably not facing. Please don't answer trying to justify your actions - I am sure you think you're doing a good thing. But I hope you realise that, if a person sincerely believes that God does not exist, then from their point of view they are right in seeing what you are doing as a very wrong thing. I sincerely hope your actions will not come back to haunt you one day.

InterestedAtheist said:
They would probably be in very serious trouble. Unless, of course, the miracle they prayed for was for the Chinese government to have a change of heart and become Christian? While that's not technically an impossible event, I'd say it might even count as evidence of a miracle for a skeptic like myself.

InterestedAtheist said:
But again, let's look at the bigger picture here - and I'm sorry, but I really have to ask you to focus again on the question. I am asking you why Christians who pray to God for things, believing that He wants to help them and does help them - why they would never pray for the impossible. You answer with a very specific response of a scenario in which you believe it is likely that God answering a prayer would cause trouble in the world. As far as I can see, that answer is full of holes.

First: so, it would cause trouble. when has that stopped God before? The Bible is full of stories of God answering prayers with trouble following. A skeptic might argue that this is because it makes a better story for the people who wrote the Bible, but let's leave that for now.

Second: who are you to say that God could not solve these problems? Now it's you, the Christian, talking about God like He's some kind of genie, with whom you have to phrase your wishes very carefully in case he tricks you by giving you literally what you asked for. Do you think you're so powerful that you might accidentally abuse the enormous power of prayer and cause a catastrophe? That's what it sounds like you're saying.

Third: the fact that to make your point you had to conjure up a highly specific scenario shows the weakness in your argument. Do you imagine that any time God causes a miracle to happen, it will cause a reprisal from a vengeful government? What if a Christian in China were to pray for his uncle to be healed from cancer discreetly? Or for a woman to rise from the dead in the middle of the night, without anyone else knowing? And that's before we even stop to consider that most cases around the world where an indisputable miracle happened, the most likely consequence would be hugely beneficial for Christianity, causing floods of people to convert. As you yourself said above.

Fourth: getting back to the main question again - why do Christians themselves not pray to God and ask Him for miracles? Look how eagerly Christians grasp at miracle stories (which usually turn out to have no substance). How much more eagerly would they grasp at actual and proven miracles! So why aren't they praying for them?

I think the reason is, because they know God never actually answers prayers. Unless they're prayers that might happen anyway, by luck. But in that case, how do they know it was God that answered them?
Answer: I suppose they count the hits, ignore the misses, and tell themselves that God has a very good reason for not performing actual miracles. He must do. Because if He exists, there's no other explanation.

Perhaps they ought to think it through a little more.

You are right about this only being good, if God does exist. I use to teach prisoners and, on their conversion, (baptism) they would have to go before their former gang and tell them what they did that day. They could have easily been killed from their gang giving them a beating or other gang wanting pay back. They had to give everything they had to their gang, give up their weapons, and be watched for any sign of weakness. I do really worry about converts going back to Communist China and it is a huge risk.

If I had any “doubts” about the existence of the Christian God, I could not do this, but how would you feel? Suppose you had no doubt about the Bible being right and all the promises being true, would you feel compelled to teach this fact to others?

You assume I can’t really know, because you fell you could not know, but not knowing only helps you with faith to become a Christian. After you become a true Christian you have the guarantee of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which makes it really hard to deny, God’s existence.

InterestedAtheist · Sep 28, 2020

ISteveB said:
And you're still without actual understanding.

Well, yes. I am without understanding. I don't know why Christians only ask God, in prayer, for things that might happen anyway. That's why I'm asking.
You're pretty good at sermons, Steve, and you have quite the fund of entertaining stories. But how are you at actually addressing issues and answering questions?

InterestedAtheist · Sep 28, 2020

bling said:
At some time in everyone’s life, they seem to ask: “How could a Loving God allow this_____ to happen?” They are really are asking: “Why wasn’t I born into a wonderful Garden, without needy people, without hardship, lacking in nothing, no death, no hell, and having time walking with God”?

No, they aren't. They're asking "How could God allow this _____ to happen?"
Not that I am asking that, mind.

bling said:
With a Christian I feed off their personal experiences to show how the situation we are in is the best. I do not go over this if the individual is in the middle of a tragedy of course, since they need support and not a lesson.

That sounds kind of creepy, to be honest. But yes, if that is how you answer Christian's earnest enquiries, please don't do that with me. Instead, just answer.

bling said:
OK, scripture is only following the preparation, life, and start of Christianity, so scripture is not addressing the rest of the world and God’s interaction with people in distant lands. We are only addressing obvious outward miracles and that is what I am talking about.

The lands in which the Bible story was told were part of the Roman Empire, and were full of miracles. Alleged ones, anyway.

bling said:
I think you are giving me too much credit if you think I came up with this on my own. You do have go deep into scripture see what is happening.

See what I mean? You read scripture and you come up with your interpretations. Or, you read the thoughts of great thinkers who were also just saying what they thought, with plenty of people disagreeing with both of you.

bling said:
The famine in Judea and the large Gentile contribution sent to the Jews was to help the Jews to start to accept Gentiles as brothers.

See what I mean?
How do you know? Did God tell you? Or did you just interpret it?

bling said:
As far as saying: “you just worked it out because it made sense to you”, you could make that comment about anything I said and it really does not help to attack me.

I'm not attacking you. And if you feel there is a case where I did attack you personally - rather than the ideas you hold - please point it out, and I shall apologise at once.
This might be a good point to say that I think you've acted courteously and properly in the whole time we've interacted, and I hope I have as well.

bling said:
You are right about this only being good, if God does exist. I use to teach prisoners and, on their conversion, (baptism) they would have to go before their former gang and tell them what they did that day. They could have easily been killed from their gang giving them a beating or other gang wanting pay back.

bling said:
I do really worry about converts going back to Communist China and it is a huge risk.

After what you've said, so do I.

bling said:
If I had any “doubts” about the existence of the Christian God, I could not do this, but how would you feel? Suppose you had no doubt about the Bible being right and all the promises being true, would you feel compelled to teach this fact to others?

Yes. I would. If you believe that you are right, you are doing the right thing.
Of course, if I believed that Allah was the true God, and that He wanted me to kill unbelievers, then I would be entirely justified in flying a plane into buildings. So this doesn't really help us much, does it?
I ought to clarify this. I'm not really writing to you to try to persuade you to change your actions. Not here, not now. It's just that what you said surprised me, and I thought it was worth sharing.
Because I do believe you are doing a bad thing. And even if you believe, to your dying day, that you are doing the right thing, it may still be that one day you will look back on your actions and wish you had gone about the Lord's work in a different manner. I speak in all sincerity when I say that I hope your actions don't come back to haunt you.

bling said:
You assume I can’t really know, because you fell you could not know, but not knowing only helps you with faith to become a Christian. After you become a true Christian you have the guarantee of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which makes it really hard to deny, God’s existence.

The fact that a person says they know something is true does not mean that it actually is true.
There are plenty of people who have known that something was true, and yet turned out to be wrong.
You and I, I'm sure, have both had the experience of knowing, for absolute certain, that something was true - and later having found that we were mistaken.
I'm curious - can you say that, although you believe that God is real, you acknowledge that you might, one day, come across evidence that will convince you that He is not?

And have you ever read any of Dan Barker's work?

ISteveB · Sep 28, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
Well, yes. I am without understanding. I don't know why Christians only ask God, in prayer, for things that might happen anyway. That's why I'm asking.

Well, let's see.... just because something MIGHT happen, at some as yet unknown point, in some as yet undefined future, doesn't mean that they WILL happen.
So, we ask.
As it's written in Psalms 37:5---
Commit your way to YHVH, and He SHALL bring it to pass.
And in Proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

It's actually quite interesting.... it seems you prefer gambling, and taking chances, without any hope of success.
We who follow Jesus.... we actually would rather know that our plans, our hopes, our dreams, the things we think are important..... SHALL take place.

So...... whatever MIGHT happen, is not guaranteed TO happen.
but with YHVH, He says HE SHALL bring them to pass, by asking/inviting him to be a part of our ideas.

You're pretty good at sermons, Steve, and you have quite the fund of entertaining stories. But how are you at actually addressing issues and answering questions?

I suppose that depends entirely on whether you actually think that genuine, objective truth exists buried in the experiences of one's life.

Jesus used them quite extensively to speak truth.

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

I find them quite helpful in elucidating ideas which cannot be explained in a manner that people would comprehend otherwise.

Even Jesus said something similar.

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

So.... as it's really important you understand, and God himself has a practice of story-telling to make points, and let people work through the ideas, why would I think I could do it better.

bling · Sep 28, 2020

InterestedAtheist said:
No, they aren't. They're asking "How could God allow this _____ to happen?"
Not that I am asking that, mind.

That sounds kind of creepy, to be honest. But yes, if that is how you answer Christian's earnest enquiries, please don't do that with me. Instead, just answer.

The lands in which the Bible story was told were part of the Roman Empire, and were full of miracles. Alleged ones, anyway.

See what I mean? You read scripture and you come up with your interpretations. Or, you read the thoughts of great thinkers who were also just saying what they thought, with plenty of people disagreeing with both of you.

See what I mean?
How do you know? Did God tell you? Or did you just interpret it?

I'm not attacking you. And if you feel there is a case where I did attack you personally - rather than the ideas you hold - please point it out, and I shall apologise at once.
This might be a good point to say that I think you've acted courteously and properly in the whole time we've interacted, and I hope I have as well.

After what you've said, so do I.

Yes. I would. If you believe that you are right, you are doing the right thing.
Of course, if I believed that Allah was the true God, and that He wanted me to kill unbelievers, then I would be entirely justified in flying a plane into buildings. So this doesn't really help us much, does it?
I ought to clarify this. I'm not really writing to you to try to persuade you to change your actions. Not here, not now. It's just that what you said surprised me, and I thought it was worth sharing.
Because I do believe you are doing a bad thing. And even if you believe, to your dying day, that you are doing the right thing, it may still be that one day you will look back on your actions and wish you had gone about the Lord's work in a different manner. I speak in all sincerity when I say that I hope your actions don't come back to haunt you.

The fact that a person says they know something is true does not mean that it actually is true.
There are plenty of people who have known that something was true, and yet turned out to be wrong.
You and I, I'm sure, have both had the experience of knowing, for absolute certain, that something was true - and later having found that we were mistaken.
I'm curious - can you say that, although you believe that God is real, you acknowledge that you might, one day, come across evidence that will convince you that He is not?

And have you ever read any of Dan Barker's work?

As far as: “…if I believed that Allah was the true God, and that He wanted me to kill unbelievers…”. There are lots of miss led people out there: We can start with the apostle Paul, when he was Saul, killing innocent Loving Christians in the name of Judaism.

All I can say is: “I am right about this and they are wrong”, just as Paul/Saul went from wrong to right.

I have spent lots of time defending the truth to atheist to the point they intellectually agree with the alternative and even have said: “You could very will be right”, but that does not result in them being baptized. It is always left up to them trusting (faith) in a Benevolent Creator. Do you even have a need to trust in a Benevolent Creator? Some day they and/or you might have the need to trust and will remember our discussion.

I gave you my answer to: “Why Christians do not pray for the scientifically verifiable miracles”? (the need for faith and them working against the Master Plan of Evangelizing). I do want to say again: “I do believe miracles happen today” and will add some miracles can be growing a leg back or raising the dead, but these would be in remote third world groups of people, who all believe in lots of spirit activity.

cvanwey · Sep 28, 2020

@ISteveB ... You look to have missed post #142? I'll recap the highlights, for your convenience

- You seem to think God intervenes or answers the call to some petitionary and/or intercessory prayers? However, it looks like He 100% skips such requests to restore amputees, requests to remove existing cerebral palsy, and/or remove/reverse existing Downs syndrome?

- According to you, prayer might turn out to be a futile endeavor regardless? If God only answers, according to His will, this might mean God only 'responds' to requests for which already align with His plan. Does God sometimes change His mind, to instead answer your request, which does not align with His will?

- You cannot control what you believe. And yet, it seems God may smite the ones whom do not believe in Him?

- God looks to demonstrate a bazaar form of 'love'? (i.e.) Trust in Him anyways, or He will send you to hell.... Seems like an odd false dichotomy to set into place...?

- Seems as though God wants for some not to know He exists, like me, but still wants some to institute 'blind faith' anyways?

ISteveB · Sep 28, 2020

cvanwey said:
@ISteveB ... You look to have missed post #142? I'll recap the highlights, for your convenience

that's possible. I didn't post for most of the weekend, and by the time I did start posting I saw a lot of posts/alerts. I thought I'd gotten them all, but apparently not.

- You seem to think God intervenes or answers the call to some petitionary and/or intercessory prayers? However, it looks like He 100% skips such requests to restore amputees, requests to remove existing cerebral palsy, and/or remove/reverse existing Downs syndrome?

No. I think God answers all prayers, of those who turn to him, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus. He says he has a vested interest in those prayers.
We read in another place that he doesn't hear the prayers of the unrepentant, and doesn't owe them a response.
Psalms 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart,
The Lord will not hear.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked,
But He hears the prayer of the righteous.

Proverbs 28:9

One who turns away his ear from hearing the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.

Isaiah 59:1-3

1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,
That it cannot save;
Nor His ear heavy,
That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood,
And your fingers with iniquity;
Your lips have spoken lies,
Your tongue has muttered perversity.

So, as sin, and the law of God is so important, why would he pay attention to someone who's not in a right standing with him?

There's another passage which says--- Psalms 37:4-5

Delight yourself in YHVH and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to him and he shall bring it to pass.

So, it's clear that God will care about the things that matter to us, when we care about the things which matter to him.

Something I realized recently--- I've got prayers that date back 40+ years, which have only recently been answered-- from my perspective. I've learned that God does indeed answer prayers.... sometimes it just takes longer because I'm not able to receive what's being asked, and I need to grow up enough to appreciate/recognize the answer.

- According to you, prayer might turn out to be a futile endeavor regardless? If God only answers, according to His will, this might mean God only 'responds' to requests for which already align with His plan. Does God sometimes change His mind, to instead answer your request, which does not align with His will?

Nope. Prayer is never a futile endeavor.
Jesus made this abundantly clear in Luke 18.

1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’ ”
6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

So.... for his followers, prayer is NEVER futile. Some prayers we simply have to be patient for.

As to according to his will..... In James 4 we read

1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

Humility Cures Worldliness

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

So.... it is possible to ask for things which would not honor God, and be more about what we think we want, but would in fact destroy us. Eg., like a child who wants to play with matches, or stick a fork in an electrical socket, or drive a car before they're mature enough to grasp the dangers, and necessity for responsibility.

We do however have to pay attention to what we're praying for, and our state before God.

If you pray, and you're not acknowledging what you've done wrong to God, why should he listen?

Isaiah 59:1-3 is pretty clear----

1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,
That it cannot save;
Nor His ear heavy,
That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood,
And your fingers with iniquity;
Your lips have spoken lies,
Your tongue has muttered perversity.

- You cannot control what you believe. And yet, it seems God may smite the ones whom do not believe in Him?

So, you think that you're justified because you have no control over what your choices are?
Well, I suppose you're more than welcome to find out the hard way how wrong this is. Are you sure you really want to walk that dog? Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

- God looks to demonstrate a bazaar form of 'love'? (i.e.) Trust in Him anyways, or He will send you to hell.... Seems like an odd false dichotomy to set into place...?

Seems is the key term here.... what you think you know is wrong.
The bible says we are spiritually dead because of sin, and THAT is why we will go to hell. Not because you won't believe him.
Your unbelief is just one more in a long list of sins committed against him.

- Seems as though God wants for some not to know He exists, like me, but still wants some to institute 'blind faith' anyways?

Jesus said--- whosoever will come to me, I will not turn them away.
Hebrews says--- God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

So...... you choose. Do you believe God, or what you think you know?

cvanwey · Sep 28, 2020

ISteveB said:
No. I think God answers all prayers ----- I've got prayers that date back 40+ years, which have only recently been answered-- from my perspective. I've learned that God does indeed answer prayers.... sometimes it just takes longer because I'm not able to receive what's being asked, and I need to grow up enough to appreciate/recognize the answer.

If God answers all prayer, sooner or later, then you eventually would see some people's limbs return, some people's cerebral palsy vanish, and you would see some people's Downs disappear. Can you explain why none of these conditions are ever cured/undone/reversed/resolved?

ISteveB said:
Nope. Prayer is never a futile endeavor. ----- So.... for his followers, prayer is NEVER futile. Some prayers we simply have to be patient for.

As to according to his will..... ----- So.... it is possible to ask for things which would not honor God, and be more about what we think we want, but would in fact destroy us. Eg., like a child who wants to play with matches, or stick a fork in an electrical socket, or drive a car before they're mature enough to grasp the dangers, and necessity for responsibility.

We do however have to pay attention to what we're praying for, and our state before God.

If you pray, and you're not acknowledging what you've done wrong to God, why should he listen?

If God cures illnesses, conditions, and-the-like, as expressed in the Bible, it also seems appropriate and reasonable to also ask God to sometimes restore amputees, remove cerebral palsy, and remove Downs syndrome. And yet, God looks to be skipping all (3) of these requests, 100% of the time. We now look to have a conflict? God is claimed to cure all sorts of conditions, from time to time. And yet, these three are absolutely excluded.

ISteveB said:
So, you think that you're justified because you have no control over what your choices are?
Well, I suppose you're more than welcome to find out the hard way how wrong this is. Are you sure you really want to walk that dog? Eternity is a long time to be wrong.

Listen... I'm the first to admit that if God exists, He can certainly setup any rule or playbook He so chooses.

However, I still find it odd that God sets a stage to where all whom do not believe He even exists, are instead sent to a place of torture - as the only alternative realm? (i.e.) your ONLY two realms of continued existence are either eternal bliss, or eternal torture? This looks to be a rather odd form or definition of 'love'?

And I trust you too acknowledge you cannot control what you believe??? If you disagree, I please invite you to re-read post #142

ISteveB said:
Seems is the key term here.... what you think you know is wrong.
The bible says we are spiritually dead because of sin, and THAT is why we will go to hell. Not because you won't believe him.
Your unbelief is just one more in a long list of sins committed against him.

Then you need to reconcile a contradiction in your statement. Jesus seems to be pretty clear right here....

"He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

So again, God's offer, as 'love', looks virtually no different than your standard ultimatum or act in coercion.

ISteveB said:
Jesus said--- whosoever will come to me, I will not turn them away.
Hebrews says--- God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

So...... you choose. Do you believe God, or what you think you know?

Like I stated prior, I sought after Him for decades. I truly feel I never received a response. Does God not have the ability to demonstrate His presence, without doubt? Heck, you need not look further than Sal of Tarsus

Daniel Marsh · Sep 29, 2020

read to here, I understand that God always answers the prayers of his children. His answers are often not exactly what we asked for, but for what is best for all.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

ISteveB said:
Well, let's see.... just because something MIGHT happen, at some as yet unknown point, in some as yet undefined future, doesn't mean that they WILL happen.
So, we ask.

I think you misunderstood my question. Perhaps you should read the OP again.

ISteveB said:
It's actually quite interesting.... it seems you prefer gambling, and taking chances, without any hope of success.
We who follow Jesus.... we actually would rather know that our plans, our hopes, our dreams, the things we think are important..... SHALL take place.

I really have no idea what you mean. I would be taking a gamble if I accepted the existence of the Christian God on less than satisfactory evidence. Lacking evidence that God exists, I do not believe that He does.

InterestedAtheist · Oct 1, 2020

bling said:
As far as: “…if I believed that Allah was the true God, and that He wanted me to kill unbelievers…”. There are lots of miss led people out there: We can start with the apostle Paul, when he was Saul, killing innocent Loving Christians in the name of Judaism.

And that's the rub, isn't it? There are an awful lot of people who think, who really and truly believe, that they are right, and we know that they are wrong. so when you say you know that you are right, I trust that you are also keeping in mind that you may, in fact, be wrong.
Have you ever heard of Dan Barker? A well-known American preacher. Talked to God every day, and God talked back to Him. He experienced God's presence, he prayed to God and received answers to prayers, sometimes in the form of miracles, sometimes in the form of verbal answers. He is now one of the world's most famous atheists. He really, and truly believed that God exists. And he now realises that he was wrong.
So when you say you know God exists, just bear in mind. So did Dan Barker.

bling said:
All I can say is: “I am right about this and they are wrong”, just as Paul/Saul went from wrong to right.

Well, exactly. Just what they say about you.

bling said:
I have spent lots of time defending the truth to atheist to the point they intellectually agree with the alternative and even have said: “You could very will be right”, but that does not result in them being baptized. It is always left up to them trusting (faith) in a Benevolent Creator.

Let's start off first with getting to the point that we can establish if God does indeed exist. Once I do believe that God exists, I will then be in a position to decide what I think of His moral character.

bling said:
Do you even have a need to trust in a Benevolent Creator? Some day they and/or you might have the need to trust and will remember our discussion.

Before we decide on that, I'm curious. What is this irrefutable proof of yours that has, in the past, convinced atheists that God exists?

bling said:
I gave you my answer to: “Why Christians do not pray for the scientifically verifiable miracles”? (the need for faith and them working against the Master Plan of Evangelizing).

And I've explained why neither of those is a satisfactory explanation.

bling said:
I do want to say again: “I do believe miracles happen today” and will add some miracles can be growing a leg back or raising the dead, but these would be in remote third world groups of people, who all believe in lots of spirit activity.

Do you see why saying "Yes, miracles do happen, but only in backward parts of the world," is an extremely suspect statement?

Why do Christians never pray for impossible things?

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