Grapes in the Early Spring

The wine was...

  • Fermented

    Votes: 17 77.3%
  • Unfermented

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22

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Therefore, we should consider 1 Corinthians 3, in regards to 'defiling this Temple'.
1 Corinthians 3:3. for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
Paul is addressing a church here, not an individual, and his concern is divisions within, that destroy
the fellowship in the Holy Spirit. He then speaks of our works being tried:

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
To be clear, the work is the building (edifying) of the body of Christ unto a mature group, where the
Holy
Spirit can properly manifest, as discussed later in chapters 12 and 14. So now consider the famous
"defiling the temple" verses.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
Once again, Paul is not addressing an individual, but a group. You are the temple.
[G2075]-este=you in plural, of course.
No man is an island is good literature. No man is a temple is Truth. We are the temple, and all of our

divisions are what defiles that temple. When someone asks "are you pretrib?, amil? do you drink alcohol?
What they are asking is: how do you defile the temple? Not that you cannot have your own opinions about
such matters, but many are extreme in defending their views, to which Paul advises:
Romans 14:22. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.(or disapproves!)
Now we come to the verses in 1 Corinthians 3 that works against both sides of such a carnal disagreement.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become
a fool that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”;
20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”
21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours...

If you review this thread and highlight worldly information, facts and figures, many historical and social suppositions in one color, then highlight scriptural references in another color, the facts and figures will probably win out.
What is spiritual is found in chapter 13. When you do something for the love of Christ, your motive will
always be pure. I very rarely drink any alcohol, but not for any of the reasons mentioned earlier from your document. I simply don't give it much thought. When you
sanctify yourself to ministering in the Word and prayers in faith toward The Son of God, worldly pleasures fade. You rarely think about these things, until they come up in a discussion among believers. Love for others may impel you towards abstaining from something, but it may require you to do something in moderation.
1 Corinthians 10:
29 “Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience?
30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?

31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God,
33 just as I also please all
men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many,
that they may be saved.



I cannot argue against this statement, because I agree that any decision motivated by love for Christ
and His church IS, in fact, the direction given by conscience.
Conscience doesn't just condemn, it also approves.


Talk about a 'pandora's box', sounds more like fear. Perfect love casts out fear.

I am limited on time to reply to everything you said here.

In regards to the parable of the building,
and it's materials in 1 Corinthians 3:

Paul says before the parable, "you are God's building."
So we are the materials that make up the building.

The work is not referring to just any kind of general actions of a believer like good fruit (any kind of good fruit) and evil fruit (sin). The work is referring to those believers we bring to the faith and their eternal status with God (i.e. what kind of building materials are they made up of). The Parable is talking about Paul's work (Which is the Corinthians in this instance).

I believe Paul and the other apostles are a part of the foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone or the ultimate baseline foundation (Ephesians 2:20), and that Paul's work in the gospel are the result of the Corinthians being initially saved by the gospel. However, Paul is now concerned that his labor in the gospel (concerning them) is now in vain because the Corinthians are now working the sins of strife and envying (Note: Paul condemns the sins of strife and envying when writing to the Galatians (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). In Galatians 4:11, Paul was concerned for the Galatians in that they were going back to the Old Law so as to be justified or saved. He was concerned that his labor for the gospel was in vain for the Galatians.

So the parable speaks of how his labor for the gospel (concerning the Corinthians) was now possibly in vain for them, too.

#1. The chief cornerstone foundation = Jesus Christ.
#2. Built as a part of the foundation on top of Christ = The apostles (including Paul, etc.) (Ephesians 2:20).
#3. The actual building materials of the tower or building = God's people (In this instance it would be the Corinthians).
#4. The Corinthians would be like: Wood, hay, and stubble in this particular point in time within their life while they abided in their sins of strife, and envying (Which are sins that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God).
Wood, hay, and stubble are not materials that could survive a fire.
#5. Paul (the soul winner, and builder of the gospel and builder upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) would be saved through the fire (despite his work - i.e. the Corinthians being his work) would be burned up because of their sins. For Paul then says that if any man defiles the temple, God will destroy them (Meaning: God will destroy the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins). We are the temple of God. Our bodies are the temples of God. If we as believers defile our temples by sin, God will destroy us (i.e. condemn us).​

This is what I believe the parable is saying. The works of Paul that will be burned are the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3). The Corinthians at this point in time are not saved and they will be burned up in the fire and destroyed by God if they don't seek forgiveness with the Lord and turn from their sins of strife and envy. Paul, the apostles, or the gospel preacher is the one who will be saved through fire if his work (the Corinthians) is burned up (on the account of their justifying sin). The parable is not talking about how a believer can sin and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. It's actually teaching the exact opposite of that. One cannot build sin as a work upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.

Yes, we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace, but believers cannot justify sin, and they have to be fruitful for their Lord and live holy as a part of the Sanctification Process.
For Hebrews 12:14-15 says,

“14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”
 
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Paul says before the parable, "you are God's building."
So we are the materials that make up the building.
This is very good! Between everything I posted, and this analysis you provided, we show that
Paul is concerned with every church overcoming carnality and building a temple, by the Spirit,
for the Spirit. .
This is the reason for my objection to taking "defiling the Temple" out of context and applying it
to this topic, of food and drink, as it is clearly much bigger than that.

Mark 7:15. There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things
which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
 
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Mr. M

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Mark 7:15. There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things
which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man
Mark 7:
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning
the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that
whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught,
purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

And all these things coming from a man defile the Temple, the Body of Christ.
 
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Der Alte

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An early 1800s recipe book, called “receipts” back then, gives directions that would preserve grapes fresh for 12 months. These grapes could be pressed into a cup at any time of the year (New Family Receipt Book, London; 1820).
So folks who say that we could not preserve grape juice back in earlier years is simply not true.
You might want to try again. I don't think you want to rely on that version of the "receipt." Here is the complete "receipt" from the book online.
356. Method of preserving Grapes.
Take a cask or barrel, inaccessible to the external air, and put into it a layer of bran, dried in an oven, or of ashes well dried and sifted. Upon this, place a layer of grapes well cleaned, and gathered in the afternoon of a dry day, before they are perfectly ripe. Proceed thus with alternate layers of bran and grapes, till the barrel is full, taking care that the grapes do not touch each other, and to let the last layer be of bran; then close the barrel, so that the air may not be able to penetrate, which is an essential point. Grapes, thus packed, will keep nine or even twelve months. To restore them to their freshness, cut the end of the stalk of each bunch of grapes, and put that of white grapes into white wine, and that of the black grapes into red wine, as you would put flowers into water, to revive or keep them fresh.
The New Family Receipt Book...(1820)
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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I also believe the Israelite mixed water with wine so as to dilute its potency so as to prevent others from getting drunk so quickly. They stored wine in an undiluted state sometimes in travel leather pouches and used it to sanitize unclean drinking water. It could be used for medical reasons in an undiluted state. But when they drank for social reasons or to celebrate, they drank the wine by diluting it with several parts of water. Today's wines are not like that. They are much higher in alcoholic content because they are not diluted with water.

Jesus created grape juice or unfermented wine with his miracle. He did not create aged fermented alcoholic wine. He created something fresh and new and pure and holy and good. The beverage of the Lord's cup in the Lord's supper is called “the fruit of the vine” in three gospels. This does not sound like juice that has been consumed partially by yeast with it pooping out alcohol. It sounds like fresh fruit of the vine (i.e. grape juice). In fact, if you believe that alcoholic wine is the actual beverage at the Lord's supper, then you need to start promoting that kind of beverage to even children.

Side Note:

There is no mention in Scripture about how children were excluded from partaking in the Lord's supper because it included intoxicating beverages.
Like I said before I don’t think this type of rhetoric is helpful any more than I would think it would be helpful to criticise drinking pasteurised juice as “promoting giving sugary beverages to children” especially knowing that “health conscious” people would actually look down on people who give their children juice. I don’t view a child taking a sip of diluted wine or a piece of bread dipped into that wine as part of communion in a church with the same negativity that you do and when it comes to the point that you describe the fermentation process as yeast “pooping” it reminds me of something I read once about how ex-Muslims still have a challenging time eating pork because they were taught it’s so unclean it’s like eating dead dog.

I know you have reasons for believing as strongly as you do, I don’t need to try to change your mind. Personally abstaining from drinking wine is not wrong and since my issue is not with you choosing to abstain but with you choosing to condemn others in a manner I believe is not right then I think this is why the Apostle wrote that it is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. (Romans 14:21-22, KJV)
 
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I sometimes have a glass of wine in the privacy of my own home. At one time I was not so concerned about it. It the 80s my wife and I went out to dinner with a friend, who happened to be an alcoholic, and his wife. They didn't serve single glasses so I ordered a carafe, about 2 glasses. Some time later I heard the friend's wife, trying to justify her husband's drinking, telling my wife "Well I saw your husband drink a whole bottle of wine." So c.f. Romans 14:21-22.
 
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This is very good! Between everything I posted, and this analysis you provided, we show that
Paul is concerned with every church overcoming carnality and building a temple, by the Spirit,
for the Spirit. .
This is the reason for my objection to taking "defiling the Temple" out of context and applying it
to this topic, of food and drink, as it is clearly much bigger than that.

Mark 7:15. There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things
which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.

Does this include eating and drinking known poisons?
 
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Like I said before I don’t think this type of rhetoric is helpful any more than I would think it would be helpful to criticise drinking pasteurised juice as “promoting giving sugary beverages to children” especially knowing that “health conscious” people would actually look down on people who give their children juice. I don’t view a child taking a sip of diluted wine or a piece of bread dipped into that wine as part of communion in a church with the same negativity that you do and when it comes to the point that you describe the fermentation process as yeast “pooping” it reminds me of something I read once about how ex-Muslims still have a challenging time eating pork because they were taught it’s so unclean it’s like eating dead dog.

I know you have reasons for believing as strongly as you do, I don’t need to try to change your mind. Personally abstaining from drinking wine is not wrong and since my issue is not with you choosing to abstain but with you choosing to condemn others in a manner I believe is not right then I think this is why the Apostle wrote that it is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. (Romans 14:21-22, KJV)

Alcohol is a destructive addictive poison. Sugar is not. Alcohol is related to creating addiction that leads to drunk driving and causing death for others. Sugar does not do that. Alcohol is related to many health issues that are very serious. I have not heard of a ton of sugar related diseases like with alcohol. It is a proven fact that alcohol shrinks your brain according to a UK study, as well. More lives are claimed by this deadly substance than any other. So please. Let’s not say we have a liberty in Christ to destroy ourselves with deadly poisons (like with alcohol).
 
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Like I said before I don’t think this type of rhetoric is helpful any more than I would think it would be helpful to criticise drinking pasteurised juice as “promoting giving sugary beverages to children” especially knowing that “health conscious” people would actually look down on people who give their children juice. I don’t view a child taking a sip of diluted wine or a piece of bread dipped into that wine as part of communion in a church with the same negativity that you do and when it comes to the point that you describe the fermentation process as yeast “pooping” it reminds me of something I read once about how ex-Muslims still have a challenging time eating pork because they were taught it’s so unclean it’s like eating dead dog.

I know you have reasons for believing as strongly as you do, I don’t need to try to change your mind. Personally abstaining from drinking wine is not wrong and since my issue is not with you choosing to abstain but with you choosing to condemn others in a manner I believe is not right then I think this is why the Apostle wrote that it is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. (Romans 14:21-22, KJV)

If you put alcohol in a glass dish and then you put a dirty penny in there, it will clean the penny. The alcohol does not know if it is in a glass vs inside your body. It will seek to clean and dry out a person’s insides and their immune system has to fight off it’s poisonous effects.
 
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Der Alte

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Does this include eating and drinking known poisons?
Poisonous substances kill a person that is different than something that only ceremonially defiles a person. Recall the examples Jesus gave. Mark 7:20-22
 
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Poisonous substances kill a person that is different than something that only ceremonially defiles a person. Recall the examples Jesus gave. Mark 7:20-22

Yes. Alcohol slowly kills people over a long period of use or time. It depends on the amount but it will lead to many health related issues that will lead to death.
 
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Yes. Alcohol slowly kills people over a long period of use or time. It depends on the amount but it will lead to many health related issues that will lead to death.
If abused. 32% of automobile accidents involve alcohol. That means 68% did not involve alcohol. Should we prohibit people from driving cars?
 
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If abused. 32% of automobile accidents involve alcohol. That means 68% did not involve alcohol. Should we prohibit people from driving cars?

It is illegal to drive drunk. Alcohol leads to poor judgment in breaking the Law. Driving automobiles normally is legal. One can drive responsibly and one can drink and drive and die because they were being irresponsible or careless.

Also, there is no safe consumption of alcohol. Check out this article here:

There is no such thing as a safe level of alcohol consumption | Professor David Nutt
 
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You might want to try again. I don't think you want to rely on that version of the "receipt." Here is the complete "receipt" from the book online.
356. Method of preserving Grapes.
Take a cask or barrel, inaccessible to the external air, and put into it a layer of bran, dried in an oven, or of ashes well dried and sifted. Upon this, place a layer of grapes well cleaned, and gathered in the afternoon of a dry day, before they are perfectly ripe. Proceed thus with alternate layers of bran and grapes, till the barrel is full, taking care that the grapes do not touch each other, and to let the last layer be of bran; then close the barrel, so that the air may not be able to penetrate, which is an essential point. Grapes, thus packed, will keep nine or even twelve months. To restore them to their freshness, cut the end of the stalk of each bunch of grapes, and put that of white grapes into white wine, and that of the black grapes into red wine, as you would put flowers into water, to revive or keep them fresh.
The New Family Receipt Book...(1820)

Not sure how this quote helps you. Are you just quoting it in the hope that it supports you when it does not? Besides, there are other methods of preserving grapes and grape juice through history. Only wearing a blindfold and putting one’s fingers in their ears will a person not see the preservation of grape juice in ancient times.
 
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Alcohol is a destructive addictive poison. Sugar is not. Alcohol is related to creating addiction that leads to drunk driving and causing death for others. Sugar does not do that. Alcohol is related to many health issues that are very serious. I have not heard of a ton of sugar related diseases like with alcohol. It is a proven fact that alcohol shrinks your brain according to a UK study, as well. More lives are claimed by this deadly substance than any other. So please. Let’s not say we have a liberty in Christ to destroy ourselves with deadly poisons (like with alcohol).

Sugar actually does shrink the brain as a result of high glucose levels in the blood caused by diabetes (a sugar related illness) as well as impairing cognitive function, links to obesity and secondary obesity-related ailments, as well as being physically and mentally addictive to the point that you will see people drink “diet soft drinks” which are basically carbonated water with a sugar substitute.

I’m not actually an opponent of sugar, I consume plenty of it, but I’m honestly surprised that you aren’t aware of the fact that it’s pretty much on the bad list of substances because the availability of convenient abundant amounts of it are visibly affecting society.

Anyway I again see you believe strongly about it and I consider continuing along with argumentation and strife more toxic to the spirit than sugar or wine is to the body so I will leave you in peace.
 
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Not sure how this quote helps you. Are you just quoting it in the hope that it supports you when it does not? Besides, there are other methods of preserving grapes and grape juice through history. Only wearing a blindfold and putting one’s fingers in their ears will a person not see the preservation of grape juice in ancient times.
It shows that the information you posted was false. I don't know if you or someone else initiated the falsehood.
Now back to my request. Please show me some credible, verifiable, historical evidence which shows that fresh grape juice can be kept fresh for 9 months or so.
My contention is that there was no procedure available to 1st century Jews to preserve fresh grape juice fresh from June grape harvest in one year to Passover the following year. The "oionos" that the disciples drank at the last supper was fermented, alcohol content, wine not fresh grape juice.
The wedding in Cana was near Passover so the "oionos" the wedding guests were drinking was also fermented, alcohol content wine not grape juice.
 
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Sugar actually does shrink the brain as a result of high glucose levels in the blood caused by diabetes (a sugar related illness) as well as impairing cognitive function, links to obesity and secondary obesity-related ailments, as well as being physically and mentally addictive to the point that you will see people drink “diet soft drinks” which are basically carbonated water with a sugar substitute.

I’m not actually an opponent of sugar, I consume plenty of it, but I’m honestly surprised that you aren’t aware of the fact that it’s pretty much on the bad list of substances because the availability of convenient abundant amounts of it are visibly affecting society.

Anyway I again see you believe strongly about it and I consider continuing along with argumentation and strife more toxic to the spirit than sugar or wine is to the body so I will leave you in peace.

Sugar has not destroyed families like alcohol has done. Drinking and driving is a big killer and the crimes committed while under the influence of alcohol are too numerous to mention. If you believe alcohol is no different than sugar you need to research more on the bad side of alcohol more. Right now you are just seeing what you want to see.
 
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It shows that the information you posted was false. I don't know if you or someone else initiated the falsehood.
Now back to my request. Please show me some credible, verifiable, historical evidence which shows that fresh grape juice can be kept fresh for 9 months or so.
My contention is that there was no procedure available to 1st century Jews to preserve fresh grape juice fresh from June grape harvest in one year to Passover the following year. The "oionos" that the disciples drank at the last supper was fermented, alcohol content, wine not fresh grape juice.
The wedding in Cana was near Passover so the "oionos" the wedding guests were drinking was also fermented, alcohol content wine not grape juice.

It is only false because you want it to be false. There are many different methods of preserving grapes and grape juice in ancient times. You just don’t like that truth because you are biased towards alcohol.
 
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